Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ Spirit _ Live Dust Devil?

Posted by: azstrummer Mar 10 2005, 11:17 PM

Man, this looks an awful lot like a dust devil in the distance. What do you think?


Posted by: djellison Mar 10 2005, 11:21 PM

At LAST - they've actually GOT one smile.gif

Nice find tongue.gif

Here - have a mars bar tongue.gif

Doug

Posted by: azstrummer Mar 10 2005, 11:25 PM

Crunch cool.gif

Posted by: slinted Mar 10 2005, 11:43 PM

Heh, I was just starting a new topic for this one, but ya'll beat me to it.


A navcam from Spirit's Sol 421 shows a bright, conical feature rising from the plains west of the Columbia Hills. It appears to be in the same position from both L and R eyes. There is a bright strip on the ground extending north from its current position.
Here is a 2 frame animation comparing brightness enhanced left navcam images sol 421 to 420:
http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/collections/Spiritsol421_420_navcam.gif

Since it was afternoon, the sun is to the west, so this may be a camera effect from looking in the direction of the sun although it would have to be a very strangely shaped one to account for these features.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-10/2N163745885EFFA890P0775L0M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-10/2N163745885EFFA890P0775R0M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-09/2N163659990EFFA844P0775L0M1.JPG

Posted by: Sunspot Mar 11 2005, 12:04 AM

Something in thisone too?


Posted by: Sunspot Mar 11 2005, 12:20 AM

it seems to extend in to the atmosphere:


Posted by: mhoward Mar 11 2005, 12:21 AM

Is this one too? Taken just slightly earlier.

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-10/2N163745800EFFA890P0775L0M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-10/2N163745800EFFA890P0775R0M1.JPG

In the anaglyph of the first one you can see it's out in the middle of the plain; if it's a camera trick it's a heck of a good one!

There have been some interesting shots of the sky recently that suggested to me at least that a lot of dust is getting kicked up. And of course we had our incident with the forward hazcams...

Edit: Sunspot beat me to it. smile.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 11 2005, 12:36 AM

What we need is one to come OVER HERE.....HELLOOO....YES YOU....GOT SOME NICE DIRTY SOLAR ARRAYS FOR YOU smile.gif

Likes buses - you wait 14 months then 2 come along at once - is it likely to be the same one photographed twice that far apart in only 80-something seconds? Theres a couple of km between the two locations, and MOC has often captured two or more devils in one image from orbit.


Doug

Posted by: Pando Mar 11 2005, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 10 2005, 05:36 PM)
What we need is one to come OVER HERE.....HELLOOO....YES YOU....GOT SOME NICE DIRTY SOLAR ARRAYS FOR YOU smile.gif

omg... Looks like the dust devil actually heard you ... blink.gif
700+ W/Hr!!! laugh.gif ohmy.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 11 2005, 12:56 AM

You're joking.

are you?

Actually - looking at the 'darkness' of the cells on those navcam images, I dont think you are!

Doug

Posted by: Pando Mar 11 2005, 12:58 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 10 2005, 05:56 PM)
You're joking.

are you?

Doug

No! biggrin.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 11 2005, 01:02 AM

wooOOoooowoooOOoooowaooowooo AT THE CAR WASH......

I've just wrapped up the biggest chunk of a huge animation project at work which I've had to do on my own that's involved a LOT of late nights and the client loves it - then Spirit spots a Dust Devil. Then another one. THE gets a doubling in power budget

Today = good day.

Doug

Posted by: alan Mar 11 2005, 01:03 AM

In rear view too?
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/rear_hazcam/2005-03-10/2R163745645EFFA890P1302R0M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/rear_hazcam/2005-03-10/2R163745645EFFA890P1302L0M1.JPG

Posted by: jamescanvin Mar 11 2005, 01:10 AM

QUOTE (Pando @ Mar 11 2005, 12:52 AM)
700+ W/Hr!!! laugh.gif ohmy.gif


Fantastic, that has got to be the best news of the year so far!! biggrin.gif

J

Posted by: tedstryk Mar 11 2005, 01:19 AM

I hereby withdraw my prognosis that Spirit's days are numbered. biggrin.gif

Posted by: slinted Mar 11 2005, 01:19 AM

Amazing news!

Posted by: lyford Mar 11 2005, 01:30 AM

You know I was going to add that the panels looked "blacker" in the pic that Sunspot posted, but I was getting ready to leave work, and after an hour commute, I log in at home and see this...

700 watts!?!?!?! Yeeeeeeeee haw! biggrin.gif

I would gladly trade a few specks on the hazcams for a clean solar array, any sol.

It just keeps getting better...

Posted by: mhoward Mar 11 2005, 01:59 AM

This is the best news in weeks. Go Spirit!

Posted by: imran Mar 11 2005, 02:01 AM

QUOTE (Pando @ Mar 11 2005, 12:52 AM)
QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 10 2005, 05:36 PM)
What we need is one to come OVER HERE.....HELLOOO....YES YOU....GOT SOME NICE DIRTY SOLAR ARRAYS FOR YOU smile.gif

omg... Looks like the dust devil actually heard you ... blink.gif
700+ W/Hr!!! laugh.gif ohmy.gif

Wow that's great news! Just wondering..where did you hear that from?

Posted by: Pando Mar 11 2005, 02:04 AM

QUOTE (imran @ Mar 10 2005, 07:01 PM)
QUOTE (Pando @ Mar 11 2005, 12:52 AM)
QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 10 2005, 05:36 PM)
What we need is one to come OVER HERE.....HELLOOO....YES YOU....GOT SOME NICE DIRTY SOLAR ARRAYS FOR YOU smile.gif

omg... Looks like the dust devil actually heard you ... blink.gif
700+ W/Hr!!! laugh.gif ohmy.gif

Wow that's great news! Just wondering..where did you hear that from?

A dust devil told me... wink.gif

Posted by: erwan Mar 11 2005, 02:53 AM

Probably solar array good news, dust devil and Pertinax post on Dirty lens are linked?

QUOTE
Pertinax 
Posted: Mar 10 2005, 01:21 PM
I don't know if this is related to the dust on the front hazcam or not, but thought it worth making a rare post! smile.gif

It looks like Spirit's tracks nearby have been quiet wind-scoured (in terms of what we've seen thus far anyway).

Before: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/na...00P1605L0M1.JPG

After: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/na...44P0775R0M1.JPG


BTW, maybe we see the ground effects of a strong gust on the left horizon side of these sol 420 Navcam images (left+right pictures, an horizontal white streak on the ground, not seen before) here):

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 11 2005, 03:03 AM

QUOTE (Pando @ Mar 11 2005, 12:52 AM)
QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 10 2005, 05:36 PM)
What we need is one to come OVER HERE.....HELLOOO....YES YOU....GOT SOME NICE DIRTY SOLAR ARRAYS FOR YOU smile.gif

omg... Looks like the dust devil actually heard you ... blink.gif
700+ W/Hr!!! laugh.gif ohmy.gif

I called it!

http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=749&view=findpost&p=6353

-the other Doug

Posted by: lyford Mar 11 2005, 03:43 AM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 10 2005, 07:03 PM)
I called it!

http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=749&view=findpost&p=6353

-the other Doug

Good on ya, Mate! Mars bars all around!

(Doug - we're going to need a marsbar smiley icon soon....)

Posted by: lyford Mar 11 2005, 04:13 AM

Well, it does appear to have had an affect -

Compare Sol 330 (from the deck pan self portrait - grayscaled to make it clearer)


with today's navcam image



You can really see a difference, and even tell which direction the wind came from the dust "shadow" around what ever that square dealy-bob is...

Posted by: erwan Mar 11 2005, 04:48 AM

Seems to be rather demonstrative, Lyford! You may also look on another Sol 407 Navcam image (2N162504460EFFA776P1875R0M1.JPG). What a radical dust whipoff!

Posted by: lyford Mar 11 2005, 05:23 AM

QUOTE (erwan @ Mar 10 2005, 08:48 PM)
Seems to be rather demonstrative, Lyford! You may also look on another Sol 407 Navcam image (2N162504460EFFA776P1875R0M1.JPG). What a radical dust whipoff!

You are right - this way there's no filter issue - same camera - et viola!

and

Posted by: Nix Mar 11 2005, 05:45 AM

Yeah! That rear view one is a beauty too, and a big one I presume. Are we under attack? biggrin.gif Revenge of the dust-devils...
time to make some stereo's on these...

Posted by: Pando Mar 11 2005, 05:53 AM

That must have been quite a devil there, or was it actually a martian tornado? And now that Oppy is at the yellow brick road.... waitaminute, what movie was that anyway? biggrin.gif

Posted by: Nix Mar 11 2005, 06:16 AM

That one in the rear hazard camera looks like it's transporting quite some dust.
biggrin.gif

 

Posted by: Nix Mar 11 2005, 06:25 AM

Forget about the dust, it's an artifact of the enhancing, it's sunlight. There seems to be another one to the right, see original file.
Thanks guys for these finds, it is a great morning!
I used to track devils with MPF, we had some views back then, and some BIG devils on the horizon.

Posted by: dot.dk Mar 11 2005, 06:32 AM

Wow this is the greatest ever news for a very long time!!

I hand out a Mars bar to everyone biggrin.gif

Posted by: akuo Mar 11 2005, 09:08 AM

Excellent news! This really makes my day :-)

I guess this makes it more likely that it is the dust devils/wind cleaning up Oppy also, and not necessarily all the rattling from roving.

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 11 2005, 09:45 AM

Great news! OTOH, I wonder what the long-term effect of the dust devils will be on the atmospheric opacity?

I imagine that dust devils might be less visible at Meridiani because of the desert pavement of the blueberries.

--Bill

Posted by: djellison Mar 11 2005, 10:12 AM

The atmospheric opacity goes up and down like an excited puppy anyway. Regional and local dust-storms give it trends - but it jumps about from .8 to 1.5 over a period of sols as it is.

But - looking at the Navcam imagery - Spirit's obviously had a cleaning event much like opportunity - that that is BRILLIANT news.


Doug

Posted by: dot.dk Mar 11 2005, 10:25 AM

This must be really bad news for all the tired scientists and engineers biggrin.gif
Now Spirit is almost back to Sol 1 in terms of dust buildup. And Oppy has stayed at Sol 1 roughly throughout its mission smile.gif

Posted by: Analyst Mar 11 2005, 10:42 AM

Well, NASA can shut the rovers down when they are still working. I fear they will do (and did with Viking) sad.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 11 2005, 11:00 AM

I think actually - that's highly unlikely. The Voyager/Ulysses funding is a totally seperate pot of cash to the Mars Program - and if nothing else - having two rovers on mars is an excellent way to train people for future missions w.r.t. planning, operations, communication, colaboration, long term planning and so forth - some excellent modes of practice are being put in place that will only benefit ( and save money ) future missions

They only shut down one of the viking landers iirc - and then only by accident smile.gif The other just died.

FWIW - I think we'll find that the public outrage and turning functioning probes off will save Voyager, Ulysses - and the others.

Doug

Posted by: Sunspot Mar 11 2005, 11:18 AM

I find it hard to believe they would shutdown the Voyager probes blink.gif

Posted by: OWW Mar 11 2005, 11:20 AM

At least the MERs are out of range to suffer the same fate as the unlucky Solwind satellite that became the target of brainless military types:

http://space.skyrocket.de/index_frame.htm?http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/solwind.htm
http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/mwade/craft/solwind.htm

Posted by: Analyst Mar 11 2005, 11:32 AM

Doug, I really hope it will turn out your way. But I doubt. Btw. the DSN people train with Voyager.

Posted by: dot.dk Mar 11 2005, 11:48 AM

Wonderful animation to make biggrin.gif


Posted by: OWW Mar 11 2005, 12:04 PM

How much of that is real versus different lighting conditions? unsure.gif

Posted by: tedstryk Mar 11 2005, 12:20 PM

The Viking 1 lander died in a very sad way. A young controller sent an erant command shutting it down in 1982 - it may well have lived into the 1990s had this not happened.

Posted by: dot.dk Mar 11 2005, 12:21 PM

Don't know how to find out the time a picture is taken, but looking at the two source images:

http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/420/2N163659890EFFA844P0775R0M1.JPG
and
http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/407/2N162504460EFFA776P1875R0M1.JPG

It looks about the same time of day to me biggrin.gif

Posted by: tedstryk Mar 11 2005, 12:23 PM

I question whether the whole Voyager threat is simply a ploy to keep their budget from being cut. Still, we should take no chances.

Posted by: arccos Mar 11 2005, 12:39 PM

700W = great news indeed!!!

Boys, where did you get the info?

Posted by: TheChemist Mar 11 2005, 12:49 PM

This is from a dust-devil simulation on earth, cropped from a Nasa report. Apologies but I can't find the original paper at the moment.
mars.gif

Edited to add the correct figure source [not a Nasa report, but] :

Lunar and Planetary Science XXXV (2004)
MARS EXPLORATION ROVERS: LABORATORY SIMULATIONS OF AEOLIAN INTERACTIONS
Lynn D. V. Neakrase, Ronald Greeley, and Daniel Foley
Arizona State University, Dept. of Geological Sciences, Box 871404, Tempe, AZ, 85287-1404

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1402.pdf

Originally pointed by Bruce Moomaw several months ago on the MainlyMartian blog.

 

Posted by: Pertinax Mar 11 2005, 12:54 PM

Ahhhh... beat to the punch on the cleaning of Spirit's solar cells. Saw it yestererday and while on the way to check past sol's images I wound up chacing other rabbits (a analyst notebook data for a possible halo for Oppy's sol 312).

Great Find (on both the dust devils AND the cleaning of the cells), and Great News!!

-- Pertinax

Posted by: erwan Mar 11 2005, 01:06 PM


Posted by: Nix Mar 11 2005, 01:11 PM

biggrin.gif tongue.gif biggrin.gif

Posted by: dot.dk Mar 11 2005, 01:14 PM

That's hilarious laugh.gif laugh.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: Pando Mar 11 2005, 04:58 PM

Somebody managed to snap the picture of two of those devils... laugh.gif pancam.gif



original credit to arccos who posted it http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=566&st=0&#entry3289

Posted by: erwan Mar 11 2005, 05:16 PM

Well, it seems that Martian's humor and atmospheric dust levels are closely linked...

Posted by: jaredGalen Mar 11 2005, 05:47 PM

QUOTE (arccos @ Mar 11 2005, 12:39 PM)
"700W = great news indeed!!!"


Has this been confirmed by anyone?

I'd rather not get my hopes up.

Posted by: dot.dk Mar 11 2005, 05:57 PM

QUOTE (jaredGalen @ Mar 11 2005, 05:47 PM)
QUOTE (arccos @ Mar 11 2005, 12:39 PM)
"700W = great news indeed!!!"


Has this been confirmed by anyone?

I'd rather not get my hopes up.

Pando knows people biggrin.gif

Posted by: jaredGalen Mar 11 2005, 06:06 PM

QUOTE (dot.dk @ Mar 11 2005, 05:57 PM)
Pando knows people biggrin.gif

Then so be it.

My hopes are officially UP, and with Ireland on their way to winning the grand slam in the Six Nations, I could not be happier.

This could certainly make them reevaluate their next move.
Will an unfavourable tilt be quite so bad now.
Will they go where previous power levels would have meant a propable death sentance?

Just curious

Posted by: Jeff7 Mar 11 2005, 07:03 PM

I thought the panels looked darker. I also looked at the rear hazcam images to see if the thing got much closer to the summit; the front hazcam images weren't much help to me in that respect - the tracks behind it are a lot tougher to see now. Looking at the Navcam images too - yeah, those tracks are definitely eroded a good bit.

Very good to hear that Spirit is back to normal power levels.



And what's this about cut funding for Voyager and other space probes? They damn well better not cut funding for any more operational probes. Hubble's already been handed a death sentence; they better not kill off any other working probes because we don't want to listen to them anymore. The Voyager probes are out in an area never before explored by any spacecraft (the Pioneer craft aren't transmitting anymore); and really, we invested a lot of time and money in building and launching these things. Run them until they won't do a damn thing anymore. Like the rovers - if their wheels seize up completely, fine, leave the cameras running - maybe update the software to allow for rapid image acquisition, and get some videos of some dust devils.

Posted by: mhoward Mar 11 2005, 10:22 PM

Check it out. L256 available.

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-11/2P163825314EFFA890P2149L2M1.JPG

Posted by: mhoward Mar 11 2005, 10:31 PM

Oh heck, I'll just post it. It's too good.

http://www.imageshack.us

Posted by: akuo Mar 11 2005, 10:39 PM

That's beautiful.

Posted by: lyford Mar 11 2005, 10:56 PM

They missed a spot. biggrin.gif

Posted by: MizarKey Mar 11 2005, 11:03 PM

I think this is the path the dust devil took...


Posted by: OWW Mar 11 2005, 11:07 PM

Sol 377:


Sol 422:


Notice the magnet to the right of the sundial. Most of the dust is now on the right side of the 'ring'! biggrin.gif

Posted by: alan Mar 11 2005, 11:08 PM

Some images of the ground

Before (sol 398)
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/r/398/2R161702065EFFA500P1312R0M1.JPG

After (sol 421)
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/f/421/2F163745695EFFA890P1212R0M1.JPG

Posted by: alan Mar 12 2005, 12:00 AM

The dust devil cleaned many of the rocks too. Should be a good time to use the Mini-TES.

Posted by: jaredGalen Mar 12 2005, 12:02 AM

Well, given the occasion I felt that it was worth trying to make one of these colour image jobbies just so I could look for myself at what happened.

Here's my first comby, I apologise to any image connoisseurs out there, perhaps it might be best to avert your eyes!! tongue.gif I'll leave it to the experts from now on I think. It's always nice to dabble though.

Who would have thought clumps of dirt could look so good on solar panels.
It's becoming quite the fashion statement on Mars it seems... smile.gif

 

Posted by: djellison Mar 12 2005, 12:38 AM

Interesting thing if you look at this

http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/V07909002.html

Many of the dust devil tracks ( particularly one ENORMOUS one starting left edge of centre ) start at a crater - or perhaps the northern rim of a crater.

Maybe being in a slight wind 'shadow' allows the air pocket inside the crater to warm up faster in the morning, rise, draw air in down the crater walls and it cycles from there.

Perhaps this is why Opportunity got cleaned so well?

If you look closely - some devils start AT the columbia hills - perhaps a north facing slope playing the same roll as the crater - being a trigger point.

Any glider pilot will tell you - a sun-facing slope is often a good trigger for thermals

Doug

Posted by: MahFL Mar 12 2005, 01:20 AM

I noticed a long time ago too that a lot of streaks started at a crater. I have glided before but just on a winch, not hill soaring.

Posted by: erwan Mar 12 2005, 01:26 AM

I guess you are right, Doug, explaining Dust Devils in terms of topography. One may compare "Dust Devils alley" area from Themis image you linked with the strongly amplified MOLA datas for Spirit landing site linked below (each square 463m; each color: 20m elevation): most Dust Devils are likely linked with an elevated area extending between White Hill and Castril crater:
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs19&d=05106&f=MolaAmplifiedWestColumbia.jpg

Posted by: erwan Mar 12 2005, 01:53 AM

A few more explanation words: The (cream color) elevated area (given Eastward Gusev rim) is likely to be sooner sun heated on the early morning than neighbouring areas (blue or grey)....

Posted by: edstrick Mar 12 2005, 02:51 AM

tedstryk commented:

"The Viking 1 lander died in a very sad way. A young controller sent an erant command shutting it down in 1982 - it may well have lived into the 1990s had this not happened."

To set the record straight. The Viking Landers were powered by Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators, but their instantaneous power demands when they were *doing* anything were greater than the RTG's could supply. They had to draw on rechargable batteries when they were transmitting, recording data to the tape recorder, etc.

Also note that the Landers primary communications to Earth was by relay to the Viking Orbiters, and secondarily by direct uplink to Earth. Viking Orbiter 2 died of attitude control gas depletion after 2 years in Mars Orbit, while Viking Orbiter 1 lasted 4 years.

Viking Lander 2 died of battery failure just a few weeks before the loss of Orbiter 1. It would try to do *ANYTHING*, have a brownout, and go into a safemode. I believe they finally sent it a final shutdown command sequence. Lander 2 had both transmitters to Earth fail, and could only communicate through an Obiter, so it would have been silenced by the loss of the last Orbiter.

Viking 1 was put on a 1-transmission-per-week (direct to Earth) "eternal" mission and lasted 2 1/3 more years till it started to show signs of battery failure. They assembled an "impromptu" team to write battery conditioning software and uplinked a command sequence to the Lander. It was never heard from again. They believe the command sequence accidentally overwrote the code that predicted Earth's location in the sky for the antenna pointing. They attempted to uplink corrected code, but either the Lander never received the corrections, or the batteries had in fact failed.

Viking started the sad example of repeat crisises regarding termination of a live mission. After the first "Extended" mission, there was a further "Extended" Mission, (I think), then a "Completion" mission, after which things wouild be shut down. That was averted and Orbiter 1 did a "Survey" Mission of very simple large area contiguous mapping. Finally, with the orbiter's loss, Lander 1 was put on it's "Eternal" (don't recall if there was an official name or not) mission. They were only able to listen sporadically to it's automatic broadcasts: Voyagers and some other missions were doing their things and there was essentially no $ for the effort.

Posted by: edstrick Mar 12 2005, 04:04 AM

I took the pre and post cleaning images posted earlier today, and combined them into a pseudo-color image: the pre-dusting frame as red, the post-dusting frame as blue, and their average as green.

Sun-angles are close but not identical, and the images are not in perfect registration, but the result is interesting.

Areas with the most dust removed (actually the greatest reflectance change) are red. You can trace the changes even into shadowed areas. Some of the misc. metal hardware in the upper left corner shows little if any real change (other than mis-registration fringes). Dust tails behind pieces of hardware appear grayer, as there's been little brightness change.

A steplike edge of metal hardware in the center of the left edge of the image may have accumulated dust, or that may be due to the change in illumination.

Posted by: edstrick Mar 12 2005, 04:05 AM

Uh... It would help if I added the pic before hitting "add reply"...


 

Posted by: RGClark Mar 12 2005, 06:56 AM

QUOTE (Sunspot @ Mar 11 2005, 12:20 AM)
it seems to extend in to the atmosphere:


Thanks for that image, Sunspot. If it's that big maybe we should call it a tornado rather than a dust devil.
Anyone want to estimate its width at the base?


Bob Clark

Posted by: djellison Mar 12 2005, 10:14 AM

Half the size of lahontan crater? Call it 30ft across maybe?

Doug

Posted by: remcook Mar 12 2005, 11:42 AM

I must say I'm amazed! this is cool on so many levels biggrin.gif

Posted by: tedstryk Mar 12 2005, 12:51 PM

Anyhow, it was an errant command that ended Viking 1. What you are referring to is the Viking Continuation Mission..

Posted by: Sunspot Mar 12 2005, 02:13 PM

QUOTE (RGClark @ Mar 12 2005, 06:56 AM)
QUOTE (Sunspot @ Mar 11 2005, 12:20 AM)
it seems to extend in to the atmosphere:


Thanks for that image, Sunspot. If it's that big maybe we should call it a tornado rather than a dust devil.
Anyone want to estimate its width at the base?


Bob Clark

I couldn't find any obvious sign of dust extending up into the sky in this navcam image though:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-10/2N163745885EFFA890P0775L0M1.JPG

Posted by: dilo Mar 12 2005, 03:28 PM

Hi Sunspot, also I tried to see atmospheric signatures from both NavCam portraits of the Dust Devils (I'm pretty sure they must be different dust devils, even if appeared almost at the same time). Here the results after strong enhancement of sky portion (with false colors):
http://img99.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img99&image=dustdevil421e0nu.jpg

Posted by: erwan Mar 12 2005, 04:13 PM

Sunspot, Dilo: thanks for your images.
It's probably less convincing, but i wonder if another DD is not seen on the ground, near the horizon, in Navcam images from Sol 420 (2N163660040EFFA844P0775L0M1.JPG, and the right one). Here is linked a montage for this horizon area, from Sols 419, 420, 421:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs19&d=05106&f=DDsol420.jpg

Posted by: fredk Mar 12 2005, 05:41 PM

Pando (or anyone), any idea how quickly the power level jumped on Spirit? How often is it sampled? If we could determine that it happened in minutes or seconds, that'd perhaps suggest a (very flukey?) dust devil crossing the rover. If it took longer, perhaps there was a period of time with strong winds or gusts.

I sure hope they decide to do some serious devil monitoring imaging now, like they tried way back when out on the plains. That is one video clip I could find room for on my shrinking harddrive!

Posted by: alan Mar 12 2005, 06:09 PM

The dust devils have been mentioned on msnbc.com

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/

"The best way to see it is to flip between images for a "now you see it, now you don't" effect. Daniel Crotty has created just such an animated image, http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/collections/Spiritsol421_420_navcam.gif
and after watching the picture flip back and forth for a few seconds, you should be able to see the dust devil in the distance."

"But at least so far, these devils are not fearsome: In fact, it appears that winds may be clearing off the dust-laden solar panels on Spirit as well as on Opportunity, on the other side of the planet. That is giving both rovers a welcome energy boost, Oberg reports, based on posts by experts on Mars-interest Internet forums."

Posted by: lyford Mar 12 2005, 06:30 PM

QUOTE (alan @ Mar 12 2005, 10:09 AM)
"That is giving both rovers a welcome energy boost, Oberg reports, based on posts by experts on Mars-interest Internet forums."

Now you've done it, Pando!
Will MSNBC do a bit on http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=758&view=findpost&p=6437 as well?

And kudos to slinted for getting his work mentioned, too!

And azstrummer for starting the topic....

More mars bars, please!

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 12 2005, 06:36 PM

QUOTE (alan @ Mar 12 2005, 06:09 PM)
The dust devils have been mentioned on msnbc.com

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/

"The best way to see it is to flip between images for a "now you see it, now you don't" effect. Daniel Crotty has created just such an animated image, http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/collections/Spiritsol421_420_navcam.gif
and after watching the picture flip back and forth for a few seconds, you should be able to see the dust devil in the distance."

"But at least so far, these devils are not fearsome: In fact, it appears that winds may be clearing off the dust-laden solar panels on Spirit as well as on Opportunity, on the other side of the planet. That is giving both rovers a welcome energy boost, Oberg reports, based on posts by experts on Mars-interest Internet forums."

Um, yeah -- that's sort of my fault. I posted the news about Spirit getting a cleaning, and about the guys here spotting what appeared to be dust devils, to the Usenet newsgroups alt.sci.planetary and sci.space.history, where I also tend to hang out. Several hours later, I found an e-mail in my mailbox from Jim Oberg (who haunts sci.space.history, partially because it gives him a lot of good leads for his MSNBC news articles and columns), asking me for any details and official confirmations I might have about it.

I did give Jim O. the URL to this forum, and told him that while we could see the effects of wind in a lot of images from Sol 421 (including degradation of rover tracks and the cleaning of rover surfaces), I really didn't have an official confirmation of Spirit's vastly improved power situation. Come to think of it, I think we've just heard that statement from Doug and Pando -- I'd be curious as to where they got it, and when it was discovered... *hint, hint*... ohmy.gif)

I rather specifically didn't post the URL to this forum on Usenet -- not that this isn't a publically accessible forum, I just didn't want to spur a flood of Usenet crazies into this nice, pleasant forum... *smile*... If there's one thing we do NOT need here, it's a flood of people insisting that every single rock in the MER images is actually a fossil, living plant or animal, and/or evidence of a third gunman hiding on the grassy knoll... *sigh*...

-the other Doug

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 12 2005, 06:42 PM

As an addendum, I did find it sort of amusing that one person on alt.sci.planetary challenged my news, asking me something along the lines of "How can you be seeing images from Sol 421 when the latest raw images at the MER website are for Sol 420?" I don't think I even had to tell him, someone else pointed him to the Exploratorium site.

-the other Doug

Posted by: lyford Mar 12 2005, 06:49 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 12 2005, 10:36 AM)
I rather specifically didn't post the URL to this forum on Usenet -- not that this isn't a publically accessible forum, I just didn't want to spur a flood of Usenet crazies into this nice, pleasant forum... *smile*...  If there's one thing we do NOT need here, it's a flood of people insisting that every single rock in the MER images is actually a fossil, living plant or animal, and/or evidence of a third gunman hiding on the grassy knoll... *sigh*...

-the other Doug

Thanks - dvandorn -for preventing information pollution.

When I get http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17680&highlight=sir+charles the http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17036&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=sir+charles I come here to relax in the cool waters of reasonable discourse and creative intelligence.

I must say that this board has a very high signal to noise ratio compared to most on the net, newsgroups especially.

Now can I interest you in an herbal enhancement or a lower home mortgage? tongue.gif

Posted by: erwan Mar 12 2005, 06:53 PM

Frankly posts, Dvandorn. I hope, as you, that Mer.Rlproject will not be polluted with "conspiracy" or "fossil" posts! My own pleasure with the forum is that every threads worth the visit...

Posted by: imran Mar 12 2005, 07:38 PM

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/spirit_dust_050312.html

QUOTE
Engineers report that the rover’s power reading quickly shot up to almost as high as when the rover landed on Mars over a year ago.


700+ seems right to me smile.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 12 2005, 07:52 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 12 2005, 06:36 PM)
I rather specifically didn't post the URL to this forum on Usenet -- not that this isn't a publically accessible forum, I just didn't want to spur a flood of Usenet crazies into this nice, pleasant forum... *smile*...  If there's one thing we do NOT need here, it's a flood of people insisting that every single rock in the MER images is actually a fossil, living plant or animal, and/or evidence of a third gunman hiding on the grassy knoll... *sigh*...

-the other Doug

It's the reason I made this place. Sick of the conspiracist crap that exists EVERYwhere else. The blue sky stuff, the fossil stuff, anything involving Hoagland. I can not and will not tollerate that junk smile.gif I've had to delete ONE post in a year of this place existing - I think we just set a 'tone' that works smile.gif When NASA screw up, when they make mistakes - I'll say so. But suggesting they're hiding or lying about things on mars is beyond moronic - and anyone who signs up to that mind set has never been welcome here. Somehow - it's just worked - this place is more than I ever dreamed of and I'm amazed the way the 'bug' has caught on.

How easy/hard it will be to maintain that tone when I start the 'big' project (anyone with PHP/SQL/PHP Fusion/Invision Board experience who wants to help, let me know. Also - any space news-hounds who want to chat about ideas etc - ditto - doug@rlproject.com. Cant give you money - can give you your own ..@unmannedspaceflight.com email address tongue.gif )

Doug

Posted by: Sunspot Mar 12 2005, 07:59 PM

I always assumed the bright round features seen towards the base of the hills were some kind of eroded impact feature...:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/420/2N163660040EFFA844P0775L0M1.JPG

But I think they may be the starting points for the formation of dust devils now...

Posted by: GregM Mar 12 2005, 10:39 PM

.

Posted by: deglr6328 Mar 12 2005, 11:12 PM

Hello everybody. This is my first post here since I've just foud your site! It's great that there exists a place like this where the pseudoscience kooks aren't allowed to infiltrate with thier nonsense. I hope to contribute to what I see is already a fascinating and insightful amateur discussion! biggrin.gif

Posted by: mike Mar 12 2005, 11:30 PM

That 'Marsquatch' thing does look interesting, but then I realized it's been processed with some Photoshop filter or another ("Sharpen"?). You might as well be reprocessing film negatives to show fairies dancing around little girls..

Posted by: alan Mar 13 2005, 01:59 AM

Back on thread.
Here is a before an after shot of the sundial.



Those images are useful for something after all cool.gif

Posted by: erwan Mar 13 2005, 02:02 AM

Below is linked a page from J.T ALU website, with fantastic images and movie of Earthian DD... I'm a little seasick, but what a movie: http://www.animalu.com/pics/dd1.htm

Posted by: SFJCody Mar 13 2005, 02:11 AM

Slashdot picks up the story:

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/12/2320221&threshold=-1&tid=226&tid=14

Posted by: slinted Mar 13 2005, 03:08 AM

Thanks for the sundial images Alan. I think its very interesting to note the amount of material moved around (not only on the dial, but in the background as well) as early as Sol 416/417. The cleaning apparantly isn't just an 'event' that occured on Sol 421, along with the spotted dust devil. This time of year must just be a windy time at Gusev.

Posted by: Pando Mar 13 2005, 04:28 AM

Alan, the Sol 417 image of the sundial above is quite fascinating, especially the dust-free band around the sphere. Some nice science can be learned from that simple image! One can easily see wind coming from lower left on the sundial, and blowing away the dust from the sphere, affecting the areas only where windspeed is the highest...

Posted by: Pando Mar 13 2005, 04:46 AM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 12 2005, 06:36 PM)
I did give Jim O. the URL to this forum, and told him that while we could see the effects of wind in a lot of images from Sol 421 (including degradation of rover tracks and the cleaning of rover surfaces),


Oh great... now I really have to watch what I say, or it'll wind up on the evening news... ohmy.gif laugh.gif

QUOTE
I rather specifically didn't post the URL to this forum on Usenet -- not that this isn't a publically accessible forum, I just didn't want to spur a flood of Usenet crazies into this nice, pleasant forum...


Looks like someone else did post it though... unsure.gif

But in all honesty, this forum is just about tops -- actually, several research scientists from the rover team are members of this forum and have contributed here, and that says a lot. Kudos to Doug for his excellent moderation skills smile.gif

Posted by: alan Mar 13 2005, 04:56 AM

Pando, I noticed that the sundial looks even redder on 418. Then on sol 420 the navcan images of the sky looked cloudier.
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/420/2N163648122EDNA818P1584L0M1.HTML
Did Spirit go through a dust storm starting on 417 (when the forward hazcam was messed up) that peaked on 420?

Posted by: deglr6328 Mar 13 2005, 06:06 AM

I have a question. It's probably a tad offtopic but I dont want to start a whole new thread for it since I'm sure it will be answered in like, one post! What is this little brushy wheel thingy near the "elbow" of the rovers arm and what was it intended to brush? http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/f/374/2F159567379EFFA2HPP1110R0M1.JPG I've not seen any information on it and it's not on any diagrams I've seen.... blink.gif

Posted by: cIclops Mar 13 2005, 09:35 AM

Alan's images from sol 416 and sol 417 appear to fix the date of the Dust Devil. By comparing images around those dates it should be possible to see other effects in the local regolith that indicate the maximum size of particles moved or lifted by the wind. This would enable an estimate of wind speed ...

Posted by: djellison Mar 13 2005, 09:45 AM

QUOTE (Pando @ Mar 13 2005, 04:46 AM)
Kudos to Doug for his excellent moderation skills smile.gif

Kudos to the forum members for not letting me need them smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: dot.dk Mar 13 2005, 09:54 AM

QUOTE (deglr6328 @ Mar 13 2005, 06:06 AM)
I have a question. It's probably a tad offtopic but I dont want to start a whole new thread for it since I'm sure it will be answered in like, one post! What is this little brushy wheel thingy near the "elbow" of the rovers arm and what was it intended to brush? http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/f/374/2F159567379EFFA2HPP1110R0M1.JPG I've not seen any information on it and it's not on any diagrams I've seen.... blink.gif

It is to clean the Rock Abrasion Tool cool.gif

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 13 2005, 10:10 AM

QUOTE (Pando @ Mar 13 2005, 04:46 AM)
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 12 2005, 06:36 PM)
I did give Jim O. the URL to this forum, and told him that while we could see the effects of wind in a lot of images from Sol 421 (including degradation of rover tracks and the cleaning of rover surfaces),


Oh great... now I really have to watch what I say, or it'll wind up on the evening news... ohmy.gif laugh.gif

QUOTE
I rather specifically didn't post the URL to this forum on Usenet -- not that this isn't a publically accessible forum, I just didn't want to spur a flood of Usenet crazies into this nice, pleasant forum...


Looks like someone else did post it though... unsure.gif

But in all honesty, this forum is just about tops -- actually, several research scientists from the rover team are members of this forum and have contributed here, and that says a lot. Kudos to Doug for his excellent moderation skills smile.gif

I'll second that! Three cheers and a case of Mars Bars for Doug!

-the other Doug

Posted by: Nix Mar 13 2005, 12:48 PM

Looks like some wind action in the tracks.

 

Posted by: Tman Mar 13 2005, 02:45 PM

Is there already an agreement about the number of dust devils seen at sol 421? If we compare the time of the two navcam and the one hazcam shot, then I don't think it was the same dust devil that rambled in four minutes around the plane:

Following an overview that includes the JPL pan sol 388 and both navcam and the hazcam shots of a dust devil from sol 421: http://www.greuti.ch/spirit/dustdevil-sol421.jpg

The hazcam has a clock time of 163'745'645 = 000s in my image.
The two navcam have a clock time which is later - exactly 155 seconds and 240 seconds.

Posted by: alan Mar 13 2005, 03:13 PM

I think it was two dust devils on 421. It would have to move to the north between position 2 and 3 for it to just be one. That would go against the trend seen in the overhead views which show them running mainly from northwest to southeast.

Posted by: alan Mar 13 2005, 03:27 PM

Another before and after shot



There appears to have been more than one event. Probably a gust of wind on 417 that deposited dust on the forward hazcam and left the broad streak on the sundial. Then possibly a dust devil that removed most of the dust leaving the ground looking darker on 420.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/f/420/2F163659794EFFA844P1212R0M1.JPG

Posted by: Jeff7 Mar 13 2005, 04:35 PM

Geez, looks like the dust devil even cleaned a lot of the dirt off of the hazcam lenses. Quite a thorough job it did.

Posted by: erwan Mar 13 2005, 05:23 PM

Tman: the image below is an attempt to complete the Sol388 pan, merged with Dust Devils sol 421 images you posted. I grided a Gusev plain, MOLA datas derived mesh model, with squares each 1km x 1 km. Then made a POV-ray image fitted (azimuth) with the image you posted. Then report azimuth for the 3 Dust devils you identified. So we can make rough estimates of the distances between each Dust Devils. An error may occur from accuracy of horizon line distance from the mesh model; P.O.V is approximatively at Larry's Lookout, including height above the plains.
To my opinion, as Alan wrote, it seems there was at last 2 Dust Devils on sol 421. Distances between each is not so great; i guess, as Alan i presume, that N°1 is more likely to be linked with N°2 (then moving toward SE)

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs19&d=05100&f=DustDevilGroundSpeed.JPG

Posted by: centsworth_II Mar 13 2005, 05:32 PM

The cleaning job done by the dust devil is great and it's wonderful that there are finally some ground level images of martian dust devils. But is anyone worried that this marks the beginning of an active dust storm season? That all the dust being kicked up by the devils will fill the sky, blocking the sun, and settle on the solar panels?

Is it known if dust devils are important to creating the atmospheric dust load or is that mostly controlled by regional and global winds?

Posted by: Tman Mar 13 2005, 06:35 PM

Erwan, thanks for the distances. That would mean between the DD spots the dust devil had by constant velocity at least:

No1 - No2 (155s) = 30 km/h
No1 - No3 (240s) = 24 km/h
No1 - No2 - No3 (240s) = 63 km/h

I think 63 km/h ground speed would be a little fast, isn't it? Therefore I think it be decided it were two dust devils (at least)! smile.gif

Posted by: erwan Mar 13 2005, 07:14 PM

Tman: assuming i have made rough measurements, Dust Devil ground speed values may be these ones. Then, in agrement with Alan comments:

QUOTE
alan  Posted on Mar 13 2005, 03:13 PM
I think it was two dust devils on 421. It would have to move to the north between position 2 and 3 for it to just be one. That would go against the trend seen in the overhead views which show them running mainly from northwest to southeast.

may we conclude for two main possibilities:

-three differents Dust Devils
or

-Two Dust Devils: -N°1 displacing toward N°2 with a ~30km/h grounspeed;
-N°3

Posted by: Deimos Mar 13 2005, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Mar 13 2005, 05:32 PM)
The cleaning job done by the dust devil is great and it's wonderful that there are finally some ground level images of martian dust devils. But is anyone worried that this marks the beginning of an active dust storm season? That all the dust being kicked up by the devils will fill the sky, blocking the sun, and settle on the solar panels?

Is it known if dust devils are important to creating the atmospheric dust load or is that mostly controlled by regional and global winds?

You shouldn't assume it was a dust devil that cleaned Spirit. Dust devils form in the same seasonal conditions that are conducive to high wind gusts. She's sitting on a ridge top, where winds gust faster than on the plains.

Technically, the active dust storm season begins March 22 -- which happens to be Mars' southern spring equinox. In real life, it's already begun. Both rovers have been hit by dust storms that greatly reduced their solar power since late December/early January. But the pattern from previous Mars years would be, it gets worse in a month or two. But with luck, the extra winds (and dust devils) will continue to clean the rover and compensate for the extra dust in the sky.

I don't think the details of maintaining the dust load are well known. I think the general idea is that wind gusts play the largest role, but that dust devils' contribution is significant. The skies have stayed slightly (Spirit) and moderately (Opportunity) dusty for the whole mission--but it's been out of season for dust devils for many months, until now.

Posted by: Pando Mar 13 2005, 09:45 PM

Deimos, is it possible to determine the speed of those gusts using the instruments on board the rover (such as images of the sundial showing the patterns which dust has been deposited and removed by the wind)? If so, has it been determined and how accurate are the measurements? Thanks!

Posted by: Tman Mar 13 2005, 10:11 PM

QUOTE
Tman: assuming i have made rough measurements, Dust Devil ground speed values may be these ones.

Hi Erwan, in consideration of the distance between "West Spur" and "Bonneville" I made two weeks ago in another forum ( http://www.greuti.ch/spirit/bonnev-angle-sol221.jpg ) your distances are even rather short. Therefore it's even more unlikely that there was only one DD.

The used map for my measurement could indeed somewhat be distorted due to the perspective from the Mars Global Surveyor and the stitching by JPL, but it should be fairly right (if the gage of 200m is right in this JPL map smile.gif ).

Posted by: erwan Mar 13 2005, 11:24 PM

Tman: Thanks for your post. I think your map is more accurate than my one.
In fact, uncertainties with my measurements comes from how near to the horizon line (beside azimuths, easiest to assert), you place the Dust devils Spots : the more youplace the spots near the horizon, the more the calculated distances increases...
To check, i added a rough brown mark on Azimuth 300-305, 5° wide, ~2.7 km far from West Spur (masked by Husband hill on the model), who represent Bonneville location on the model (not Az 303-309, as we are at Larry's lookout, not at West Spur). Hey, finally is not so bad, when you compare, on both the model and the Navcam image on your Sol388 Pan, the relationship between Bonneville 'imprint' and DD N°3 location! Say the error margin may be 30% on the model.. What do you think?

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs20&d=05111&f=DustDevilGroundSpeed.JPG

Posted by: Deimos Mar 14 2005, 12:24 AM

QUOTE (Pando @ Mar 13 2005, 09:45 PM)
Deimos, is it possible to determine the speed of those gusts using the instruments on board the rover (such as images of the sundial showing the patterns which dust has been deposited and removed by the wind)? If so, has it been determined and how accurate are the measurements? Thanks!

In principle, you can get a rough idea of wind speeds from a thermometer attached to a small hunk of metal. The rover has plenty of those. I haven't heard of anyone working through the technical problems, and I'm not sure just how good the result could be anyway. And a small dust cloud blocking the Sun could result in sudden cooling of the metal just as well as wind could. Although maybe that could be ruled out (or in) by solar panel output.

I don't know if the length of the wind tail would be diagnostic of speed, but the direction of the wind seems clear. A meteorology package could make a good operations tool -- you might want to park so that the front hazcam isn't pointed into the wind when you have a choice. Or maybe you don't use pancam into the wind at times of day when the winds are strong.

Posted by: Opie Mar 14 2005, 03:44 AM

Is there another dust devil in these two new rear hazcam images? Look off to the extreme left way out on the plains. How does the time of day correlate with other devils spotted?

http://qt.exploratorium.edu:16080/mars/spirit/rear_hazcam/2005-03-13/2R164010482EFFA8B3P1313L0M1.JPG

http://qt.exploratorium.edu:16080/mars/spirit/rear_hazcam/2005-03-13/2R164010482EFFA8B3P1313R0M1.JPG

Posted by: alan Mar 14 2005, 04:19 AM

Certainly looks like another one.

Posted by: Opie Mar 14 2005, 04:54 AM

Yeah, I'm starting to think that the real oddity is the fact that dust devils haven't been spotted before. I suspect that there is at most a 1 to 2 hour window during the day when devils form--and that we are entering the dust devil season. My guess is that it won't take long for the clever folks at JPL to pin down the optimal time of day for devil formation and capture some semblence of a movie. This THEMIS image was posted previously in this thread. Looking at it, you've got to believe a devil passing within Spirit's field of view is a very common occurence. The tricky variable in capturing a devil with the camera is their ground speed. If they move quickly (horizontal wind velocites on Mars can be rather high), that would explain the dearth of images thus far.

http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/V07909002.html

Posted by: CosmicRocker Mar 14 2005, 06:54 AM

QUOTE (NIX @ Mar 13 2005, 06:48 AM)
Looks like some wind action in the tracks.

Yeah, some serious wind action that not only redistributed the red dust, but also the salty stuff dug up by the wheels. I am quite amazed by the amounts of dust those thin winds can move. Some of the recent tracks have been almost obliterated by the DD or gusts.

The latest pancam L7 shows it closely.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-13/2P164013502EFFA8B3P2575L7M1.JPG

It makes on wonder if they shouldn't add a windmill to the next generation rover to supplement the panels.

Posted by: wyogold Mar 14 2005, 08:16 AM

I think a small streamer of cloth placed by the sundial or somewhere easily imaged would of returned huge amounts of wind science for little or no cost.
I thought of this when spirit first landed and i saw animations of the airbags moving in the wind. Heck a small NASA/jpl flag or something. It doesn't need to be technical or powered to return data. The photos are going to be returned anyway with or without the flag/streamer. I hope sombody suggests this for the next mission. We would have a better idea of the wind conditions and could quit guessing if spirit was blown clean by wind gusts or dust devils.

I am so happy I found this board tonight and the imaging software thanks. You guys are great.

Scott

Posted by: Pando Mar 14 2005, 09:07 AM

QUOTE (wyogold @ Mar 14 2005, 01:16 AM)
I think a small streamer of cloth placed by the sundial or somewhere easily imaged would of returned huge amounts of wind science for little or no cost.

I think something is better than nothing, since it will help to protect other instruments from dust - you'll know where to point the cameras to avoid contamination.

Somehow when I think of a windsock it always cracks me up, maybe because of this? biggrin.gif


Posted by: Tman Mar 14 2005, 09:17 AM

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Fortunately at that time the trains were already flown over!

Posted by: Tman Mar 14 2005, 10:04 AM

QUOTE (erwan @ Mar 13 2005, 11:24 PM)
What do you think?

Hi Erwan, it's difficult to say. Your distance to Bonneville and its place seems right. The half of diagonal of a square with 1000m side length is circa 700m. Now I would place the No3 circa at center of a square in your graphic. Therefore I get circa 2300m for No1 to No3.

Is it possible your graphic to turn to topview?

BTW my calculation of the No1 - No2 - No3 smallest ground speed was unlucky. rolleyes.gif The speed between No2 to No3 has to been circa 123 km/h (+85s with your distances).

Posted by: djellison Mar 14 2005, 10:07 AM

Well - yes - you could have a little wind-sock type thing. Infact - they did with Mars Pathfinder to study the meterology.

BUT

Does a geologist going out to explore rock formations take a rain gauge and an anemometer with them? Similarly - does a meterologist take a rock hammer biggrin.gif

The wind has been studied on mars quite a bit - and a small anenometer could have been fitted - but it would have been a power drag when one were not needed, a volume concern when there wasnt any volume left etc. It's easy to say "they could have put a -blank- on them" - typically involving the words colour camera, wind socks, dust wipers etc. But, lets face it - the best thing they COULD have done is design two rovers for 90 sols, and get 400+ out of each.

Doug

Posted by: erwan Mar 14 2005, 10:07 AM

I have made a somewhat "refined" attempt to evaluate distances between Dust Devils from Sol 421.
I used JPL image 02-MA-02-Now-B140R1.jpg (scaled), wrapped (on scale) upon MOLA datas derived mesh for Gusev plain. Then checked position of the two Dust devils identified on Sol 421 NAVCAM images (say it's too hazardous to check azimuth with Hazcam images for the first Dust Devil, and, hmmm, that the first Dust Devil is between N°2 and N°3!).
Read on the image 02-MA-02-Now-B140R1.jpg, the distance between the two points N°2 and N°3 is around 3.3 km, so 10% more than the previous evaluated distances... As a bonus, Spirit path is seen from Bonneville to Sol 150, among other features!

JPG 230 kb:

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs20&d=05111&f=MeshColumbiaHillsgrid2.JPG

Posted by: dot.dk Mar 14 2005, 12:55 PM

I just love making and looking at these animations biggrin.gif


Posted by: jaredGalen Mar 14 2005, 01:06 PM

That's pretty awesome alright, the difference is incredible!!

Edit: 5 Minutes later and I still can't stop looking at it biggrin.gif I'm delighted

Posted by: akuo Mar 14 2005, 01:12 PM

It's not a totally truthful animation though, as the Sun is in almost opposite directions in those two images.

The angle of the Sun changes the appearance of the deck a lot. For a more accurate comparison, we would need two images taken at the same time of the day and with the Sun shining from the same direction.

Posted by: djellison Mar 14 2005, 01:55 PM

Yeah - the sun is from the left on one, and from the right on the other. Granted - different illumination conditions, but still what I'd classify as 'comparable' to some extent

Doug

Posted by: Deimos Mar 14 2005, 03:38 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 14 2005, 10:07 AM)
Well - yes - you could have a little wind-sock type thing. Infact - they did with Mars Pathfinder to study the meterology.

BUT

Does a geologist going out to explore rock formations take a rain gauge and an anemometer with them?  Similarly - does a meterologist take a rock hammer biggrin.gif

The wind has been studied on mars quite a bit - and a small anenometer could have been fitted - but it would have been a power drag when one were not needed, a volume concern when there wasnt any volume left etc.  It's easy to say "they could have put a -blank- on them" - typically involving the words colour camera, wind socks, dust wipers etc. But, lets face it - the best thing they COULD have done is design two rovers for 90 sols, and get 400+ out of each.

Doug

I strongly agree with your main point -- as I recall, one or two "trivial" additions, and the rovers probably would not have launched. It's more important to do what you need to do--well--than to do all that you could do.

Winds on Mars' surface, though, aren't really that well known. They've been studied a great deal--with models. And they've been observed: seen from orbit via cloud (10-30 km altitude, not surface) and dust devil motion (rare to get velocity, although directions are pretty clear). And they've been inferred from wind streaks on the surface -- but do those tell you about the prevailing winds, or the typical strongest winds of the day, or the typical strongest winds during storm season, or atypical windy years, or ...

Pathfinder had a whole MET package (which MER "could have" done too :^) ). The hot-wire anemometer gave good wind directions, but speeds were difficult to interpret precisely. The windsocks wiggled a few times during the mission, but mostly did nothing--but they'd be great at a windier site.

Phoenix still "could have" a wind sensor, but doesn't yet. Wind is more allied with the other science, since Phoenix has meteorological objectives. It'd be nice to see something added there ... but again, not at the risk of the core mission.

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 14 2005, 03:41 PM

Just out of curiosity, do we know why there are so many dust devils/ dust devil tracks in the narrowish NW-trending band near the Spirit landing site? Dust devils seem to be related to topographic/orographic influence since frequently there are tracks downwind of craters, but from the orbital images, I don't see anything obvious in the topography of the area that would promote dust devil formation.

--Bill

Posted by: Deimos Mar 14 2005, 03:56 PM

QUOTE (Opie @ Mar 14 2005, 04:54 AM)
Yeah, I'm starting to think that the real oddity is the fact that dust devils haven't been spotted before. I suspect that there is at most a 1 to 2 hour window during the day when devils form--and that we are entering the dust devil season. My guess is that it won't take long for the clever folks at JPL to pin down the optimal time of day for devil formation and capture some semblence of a movie. This THEMIS image was posted previously in this thread. Looking at it, you've got to believe a devil passing within Spirit's field of view is a very common occurence. The tricky variable in capturing a devil with the camera is their ground speed. If they move quickly (horizontal wind velocites on Mars can be rather high), that would explain the dearth of images thus far.

http://themis-data.asu.edu/img/V07909002.html

The dust devil window is probably longer, maybe 1100 to 1500. During about that interval, Pathfinder imaged about a dozen dust devils in one or two sols. Several dust devils were tracked moving between images. At a few to a few 10s of m per sec, single exposures of them aren't inhibited by velocity; repeat exposures of distant (>1 km) ones are reasonable to expect, especially up/down wind.

For MER, the big difference between now and landing is we're on a hill. From the plains, you see dust against dust, and they're harder to see (not impossible, based on Pathfinder). From the hill, we're seeing light dust against a darker surface. So, there were (must have been ...) dust devils early in Spirit's mission; then none through winter; now they're kicking back up, but easier to find.

Posted by: Analyst Mar 14 2005, 04:42 PM

Doug, concerning a MET „package“ I am with you ... and I am not.

Sure, any instrument adds complexity, draws power, generates data etc. But we are not talking about a 6 megapixel color camera on Huygens, or two more spectrometers on MER. All needed are three or four temperature sensors besides to the dozens of engineering temperature sensors already in place. Plus one air pressure sensor and a wind sensor, the last on top of the PMA. These things fly since the dawn of the space age, and together have a mass of approx. a pound, drawing 1W of power and generate almost no data volume compared to one pancam image.

I understand the tight budget, the short development time ... , but three MET stations on mars (Viking an MPF) need some support. Even Beagle had a MET package ... o.k. it had a lot of instruments but no EDL system. smile.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 14 2005, 04:51 PM

QUOTE (Deimos @ Mar 14 2005, 03:56 PM)
Pathfinder imaged about a dozen dust devils in one or two sols.

Yup - it's often thought the only one spotted was that one that gets over used in vile colours - but there were others..

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=pathfinder+dust+devil&btnG=Search&meta= is worth perusing smile.gif



Anyhoo - interesting wind 'tails' on the rover smile.gif



Doug

Posted by: erwan Mar 14 2005, 05:09 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Mar 14 2005, 03:41 PM)
Just out of curiosity,  do we know why there are so many dust devils/ dust devil tracks in the narrowish NW-trending band near the Spirit landing site?  Dust devils seem to be related to topographic/orographic influence since frequently there are tracks downwind of craters, but from the orbital images, I don't see anything obvious in the topography of the area that would promote dust devil formation.

--Bill

Bill: I'm asking a similar question; in fact it' seems this narrow band correspond with a elevated area (though shallow) according to MOLA datas (please see http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=762&st=60) . May this area be"favoured", in terms of sun illumination on early morning, given the high West Rim of Gusev? I wonder...

Posted by: erwan Mar 14 2005, 05:15 PM

Maybe a kind of "positive feedback" phenomenon exist too, given the lower albedo of 'Dust Devil areas?

Posted by: alan Mar 14 2005, 05:19 PM

Check out the change in Tennessee Valley
http://s05.imagehost.org/view.php?image=/0887/tennesssee_valley_398-424.jpg
Looks like they need to redo the color panorama

Posted by: djellison Mar 14 2005, 05:24 PM

Looks like it came ( in that shot ) off the plain to the W - over near the lookout point, down into the valley - across the valley and quite probably carried on across beyond the hills.

Doug

Posted by: Pando Mar 14 2005, 08:19 PM

News release has just been posted:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/daily.cfm#Spirit

QUOTE
(...)Energy output from Spirit's solar panels is up as of sol 420, indicating that some cleaning of dust off of the solar arrays may have occurred naturally.
(...)
On sol 420, (...) Energy output from the solar array rose dramatically, to more than 600 watt-hours. In part, this is due to a favorable northerly tilt of the rover, which points the solar arrays toward the Sun. Also, tau is going back down, but it is possible that some cleaning event occurred that reduced the dust on the solar panels.

On sol 421, Spirit drove 7 meters (23 feet) and arrived close to the Paso Robles target. Spirit still needs another few meters to get into position to use the instruments on its robotic arm. Solar energy continues to be very high: more than 700 watt-hours. The last time Spirit had this much energy was around sol 80!

Posted by: wyogold Mar 14 2005, 08:36 PM

I'm not trying to say put an instrument on the rover to create precise wind data. Just something that could be imaged to see if the wind was blowing and in which direction. A simple piece of string or yarn tied to the top of the sundial. A couple pieces tied to the back deck where the rear hazcam can image it. I have noticed much time spent on such things so far. such as the airbag animations, the piece of debris caught on the deck that left trails in the dust. The photos are going to be taken anyway why not have a completely passive item that can return a little science data for free. It doesn't need to be a complete weather station only a simple piece of string. I think this would be a great project to spin off to the outreach program and have school kids build this simple experiment and watch the results. I understand the restraints of the mission but if they can place a small magnet on the deck why not a piece of string/flag.

scott

and yes the wind does blow like that in wyoming biggrin.gif

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 14 2005, 08:53 PM

I did some more digging and found some topo info on Gusev:

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/craters/hires/Gusev(overlays2).jpg

The trend of the motion of the dust devils is towards to SE, which is presumed to be the direction of the prevailing wind. As Doug noted, many dust devils do start at a crater, at a dark-floored crater, so there is a suggestion that here is the topographic control. But not all craters have dust devils associated with them, especially outside that NW-trending band. The topo map shows that there are elevated areas upwind (NW) of the Spirit site, but also there are elevated areas that do not have dust devil tracks. There is the _suggestion_ of topographic influence, but "there are exceptions".

An image of the Gusev plain:

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/craters/20030411a.html

shows some craters to the north of the Spirit site with a light-colored wind tail to the southwest, suggesting that there are two seasonal prevailing wind directions.

I fly r/c sailplanes and we look for thermals. A thermal is a rising bubble of warm air rising from a dark (warm) spot on the ground. Regional wind can distort the rising thermal and can cause it to start a circular motion, as in a dust devil. It's the issue of the chicken or the egg: do the dark areas cause thermals or do thermals cause the dark areas? It maybe a feedback loop.

Consider this: we see the dark thermal trails because the thermal removes the light dust from the underlying dark (sub)surface. There may be thermal activity over the entire region, but we may not notice the trails outside of the darl band because the subsurface is not dark, but the same color as the surface dust. Or that the surface dust is cemented or aggregated so that the dust devil winds do not remove it.

Thanks for the pointer to the March 11 discussion upstream in this topic, I missed that page.

Barsoom is an odd place, no?
--Bill

Posted by: erwan Mar 14 2005, 09:38 PM

Thanks for the links and the comments, Bill.

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Mar 14 2005, 08:53 PM)
Consider this: we see the dark thermal trails because the thermal removes the light dust from the underlying dark (sub)surface.  There may be thermal activity over the entire region, but we may not notice the trails outside of the darl band because the subsurface is not dark, but the same color as the surface dust.  Or that the surface dust is cemented or aggregated so that the dust devil winds do not remove it.

I've never thought about that. To be kept in mind...

Posted by: erwan Mar 14 2005, 09:50 PM

"Barsoom"? Does it meant MSSS? a froggy ask...

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 14 2005, 09:59 PM

Attempt at humor. "Barsoom" is the name for Mars by the science fiction writer Edgar Rice Borroughs.

--Bill

Posted by: Nix Mar 14 2005, 10:29 PM

Bill, this link is interesting too; http://geopubs.wr.usgs.gov/docs/wrgis/mars.html
Geologic Map of the MTM –15182 and MTM –15187 Quadrangles, Gusev Crater–Ma'adim Vallis Region, Mars.
It strikes me that the two parallel dust-devil alleys are elongated in the north towards the lowest part of the rim and to the south towards the exact direction of the mesas and Ma'adim entrance. Winds from opposite directions meeting and creating turbulent areas? That Mola data sounds interesting too Erwan.

Posted by: alan Mar 15 2005, 03:06 AM

Could this be the dust devil's path?

http://s05.imagehost.org/view.php?image=/0889/Dust_Devill_Path.jpg

Posted by: alan Mar 15 2005, 05:03 AM

Hey, this looks familiar.

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-mers-05za.html

http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=762&st=93

Posted by: jaredGalen Mar 15 2005, 08:55 AM

Well, here's the latest word from the MER homepage on the DustDevils

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20050314a.html

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 15 2005, 11:52 AM

QUOTE
It strikes me that the two parallel dust-devil alleys are elongated in the north towards the lowest part of the rim and to the south towards the exact direction of the mesas and Ma'adim entrance. Winds from opposite directions meeting and creating turbulent areas?


I noticed that, too. In line with the "dark subsurface" idea, could the DD Alleys be dark delta or fluvial deposits in line with the outlet of Ma'adim and the exit from Gusev Lake?

Reminds me of a saying we learnt in Geomorph class: the importance of Geology is that without it, Geography would have nothing to rest upon...

--Bill

Posted by: OWW Mar 15 2005, 12:16 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2005, 11:58 AM)
Here's another one..

http://www.marsdaily.com/news/mars-mers-05w.html

"File Image" my arse - someone [I}here[/I] did that - I remember it. Not even a JPL/NASA/Cornell credit ( which is, I believe, a legal obligation anyway )

I think that's from the official rover site:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20050307a.html

Edit: Sorry, I noticed after I posted that the marsdaily picture has much more detail than the official one. You're correct Doug.

Posted by: alan Mar 15 2005, 02:30 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2005, 09:48 AM)
Just a thought Alan - did you just do the v.basic 4,5,6 into RGB without any adjustments, or did you tweak it - as it's possible that they did the image themselves if it's the bog-standard process.

Doug

They used their own images, theirs don't have the numbers in the corner. It would take less than a minute in ImageJ. I just thought it was interesting that they would use the same trick to illustrate when the when the dust devil hit.

Something else I remember seeing: someone made a prediction about Opportunity's craterhopping and put it on one of the mars forums (I don't remember if it showed up here first or at another one) a couple of weeks later after it had been confirmed it showed up on Space Daily.

Posted by: cIclops Mar 15 2005, 04:48 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2005, 11:58 AM)
You know - It sort of pisses me off that people are coming here probably un-registered, and essentially just leaching off us without contributing. Yeah - 90% of the members dont contribute much, but most will go "nice"  "well done" "cool" when they see some new pictures.

<snip>

Hmm - in a bit of a strop now. I think I'll poll members to decide if I should make the forum to unregistered members.

Don't be pissed off Doug, every open forum is like this. Having even 10% of readers contribute is doing very well, usenet ratios are typically 1 writer to 300 readers. The freenode #space chatroom rarely sees more than a small fraction of logged in users type anything.

Closing forums is usualy the kiss of death. Even requiring registration puts many people off. I would even suggest a truly public area where guests can contribute, yes i know the problems of ad bots but a moderator can quickly remove those posts.

I've been inspired by the graphical work and ideas here and i'm sure other people have been too. Everyone has to learn and having excellent examples is a great way. Keep the forum as open as possible!

Posted by: djellison Mar 15 2005, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (cIclops @ Mar 15 2005, 04:48 PM)
Closing forums is usualy the kiss of death. Even requiring registration puts many people off. I would even suggest a truly public area where guests can contribute, yes i know the problems of ad bots but a moderator can quickly remove those posts.

Nope - not going there. The very fact that you have to register to post is a barrier to total trolls / morons. I'd never go reg-free - it'd turn into the Habitable Zone smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: Pertinax Mar 15 2005, 06:25 PM

Just a few quick thoughts:

Water markings are generally like locks -- they keep out the honest and the lazy, and the stronger the lock, the uglier.

Think the registration has helped a lot with this board -- not the whole story but a significant part. (It also helps that wacko garbage is not tolerated / encuraged.)

I have lurked for many many months and greatly enjoy the board's artistic, scientific, and technical skills.

-- Peretinax

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 15 2005, 08:14 PM

Watermarks tend to ruin an image for technical and aesthetic values and if they are inobstrusive they can be removed. You can do a doamin registration search for the website and it will give you the owner's email and phone number

Failing that, a visit from Kneecap Charlie can be effective.

--Bill

Posted by: Nix Mar 15 2005, 08:19 PM

QUOTE
Nope - not going there. The very fact that you have to register to post is a barrier to total trolls / morons. I'd never go reg-free - it'd turn into the Habitable Zone

Could not agree more.
I noticed that, too. In line with the "dark subsurface" idea, could the DD Alleys be dark delta or fluvial deposits in line with the outlet of Ma'adim and the exit from Gusev Lake?

Bill, in line with the dark subsurface idea it could be supposing then the last deposits were blocked partially by the mesas..but I notice the craters just north of the mesas (including Castril the 'mudsplat' crater) all have a dust-coating. That's why I think -at this time- that there is not a terrain difference cause to the visibility of the dust devils..if they would occur over these 'dusted' craters you would at least have to see more details in these craters where they had passed.
The 'dusty crater' area and the neighboring areas are designated the same geological unit by the way and the eastern dd-area appears on different units.
I think there's just a lot of turbulence in the area from winds of opposite directions and the mesas block the winds leaving a 'little' dusty area just north of them..

http://themis.asu.edu/pr20030411.html

Posted by: Pete B. Mar 15 2005, 09:52 PM

Alan -

About your two mosaics of Tennesee Valley - were they taken at the same time of day? At first I thought it might be a lighting angle effect, but then, after looking at bit closer, shadows seem to be comparable.

Posted by: alan Mar 15 2005, 10:31 PM

QUOTE (Pete B. @ Mar 15 2005, 09:52 PM)
Alan -

About your two mosaics of Tennesee Valley - were they taken at the same time of day?  At first I thought it might be a lighting angle effect, but then, after looking at bit closer, shadows seem to be comparable.

I think the one from 424 was taken later in the day. Its hard to tell how much of the change is real and how much is from other effects. A brighter sky in the background may result in a shorter exposure time which would make things appear darker, then the images may be stretched before they are posted.
It looks much more interesting now. I hope they will redo part of the color panorama to create a before and after image. It would make Mars look more alive.

Posted by: Nix Mar 16 2005, 12:06 AM

Yes that's how it should be done.
Let's see if they'll steal this one too biggrin.gif
Sol 425; dust magnets color stereo.
Look at the bolt at bottom of image.. Is it dusted or rusted? Or reddish original color. If it's dusted why only the bolt? Magnetic properties of bolt or..?
Opinians?

 

Posted by: Nix Mar 16 2005, 12:15 AM

There also appears to be something like a gush of wind in the left image (right image in cross-eye stereo), also at bottom of image.

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 16 2005, 01:18 AM

QUOTE
That's why I think -at this time- that there is not a terrain difference cause to the visibility of the dust devils...


Agreed. The "Alley" is clearly warmer in the THEMIS image and less dusty. It might be a terrain difference, but it looks like micrometeorology in action.

We have plenty of time to study the area...

--Bill

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 16 2005, 01:55 AM

QUOTE (Pertinax @ Mar 15 2005, 06:25 PM)
I have lurked for many many months and greatly enjoy the board's artistic, scientific, and technical skills.

Ditto. I've been lurking for quite a while. A tip of the hat to you guys on the images. I wish I had found something like this for Pathfinder and MGS when they were the probes du jour.

Posted by: Stephen Mar 16 2005, 02:11 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 15 2005, 11:58 AM)
Actually - if Bruce reads this - could you ask them about this pattern of activity - it's just not on. I dont think anyones after money - just credit where credit's due!

They did credit the MMB here - http://www.marsdaily.com/news/mars-mers-05x.html - but no link, no email to anybody.

You know - It sort of pisses me off that people are coming here probably un-registered, and essentially just leaching off us without contributing. Yeah - 90% of the members dont contribute much, but most will go "nice"  "well done" "cool" when they see some new pictures.

I broadly agree with cIclops on this matter. While requiring registration to post messages is probably essential nowadays, requiring registration simply to view a BB is a very bad move.

More to the point, if the point of doing so is stop theft of images etc and/or lack of proper attribution then you're probably wasting your time if you did. It is not going to stop the same material being purloined elsewhere. Closing off this board is not going to stop material being purloined or posted without attribtution unless you can somehow stop it being posted anywhere else on the Net. For example, an image posted (without attribution) on SpaceDaily.com may well have originally been posted to this board but SpaceDaily may not have got it from this board itself but from (say) an image posted (with attribution) on the forums on newmars.com who in turn got it from an article posted (with attribution) to Space.com who got it from this board.

Are you going to require everybody who views such things anywhere to register with this board before they can view material originating here?

***

At the risk of being flamed, I'll add my 2 cents worth on another related matter if I may.

I've just registered on your board. The agreement I was required to sign my name in blood to contained (amongst other things) this sentence:

QUOTE
You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.

There is just one teensy problem with that clause: all those nice images of Mars which people have been posting to this board are almost certainly copyright (as distinct from being, like the works of Shakespeare, in the public domain). In the case of the MER ones the copyright owner would probably be JPL and/or NASA (and thus, ultimately, the US government), not the person who posted them. The fact that the copyright owner may not be aggressively asserting ownership (see http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/policy/), and indeed may even be happy do have people post them around the Net (for public relations reasons: it promotes public enthusiasm and support for its Mars programs, thereby encouraging the politicians to give it money for more such things), is not the same as there being no copyright on those images at all.

On the one hand, that probably means that those who do post them are probably not going to be sued. On the other hand, those who do post such material are not the copyright owners, which means they are probably in breach of the agreement they agreed to when registering on this board.

(They are probably also in breach of this part if JPL's image policy:

QUOTE
By electing to download the material from this web site the user agrees...to use a credit line in connection with images. Unless otherwise noted in the caption information for an image, the credit line should be "Courtesy NASA/JPL-Caltech."

As for those who post modified versions of the images and now expect a byline--well, think about it. Unless they themselves first sought permission to modify the images those modified versions are themselves unauthorised. In fact, as such they are the equivalent of Star Trek fan fiction: unauthorised versions of copyright material. Those versions might be tolerated by the copyright owner, but those who posted them probably also do not have legal leg to stand on should they start to get stroppy about expecting proper attribution.

On the one hand, such attribution may well be only common courtesy. On the other hand, I can also see the copyright owners pointing out that it's the kind of courtesy you'd expect to find among "thieves": more honoured in the breach.

***

All in all, don't get me wrong. I don't mind the images, modified otherwise, being posted here. This BB would be a lot poorer without them. As many others have noted this board is one of the best to come to for good discussion & other material on the MERs. But at the same time, people in glasshouses should beware of throwing stones.

Posted by: slinted Mar 16 2005, 03:05 AM

I would think that the colorization, mosaicing, and otherwise modifying the images would fall under (from the JPL image use policy):

QUOTE
"Unless otherwise noted, images and video on JPL public web sites (public sites ending with a jpl.nasa.gov address) may be used for any purpose without prior permission..."

and as to actual copyright on the images...
QUOTE
"1. that Caltech makes no representations or warranties with respect to ownership of copyrights in the images..."

Wouldn't that mean that they are not claiming copyright over the raw images?

Posted by: alan Mar 16 2005, 03:42 AM

QUOTE (alan @ Mar 15 2005, 05:03 AM)
Hey, this looks familiar.

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-mers-05za.html

http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?showtopic=762&st=93

Damn, when I posted this I was just pointing out something that I found amusing: the fact that Mardaily choose the same image to illustrate when the dust devil passed by. They may have copied my idea (they didn't use my images) if so I wasn't complaining, I was bragging actually. I had no idea I was opening this whole can of worms. I have no problem with adding Raw images: Courtesy NASA/JPL-Caltech after any images that I post. I just assumed anyone reading this forum would know where they were from (I'm also lazy and type slow)

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 16 2005, 04:12 AM

QUOTE (NIX @ Mar 15 2005, 08:19 PM)
In line with the "dark subsurface" idea, could the DD Alleys be dark delta or fluvial deposits in line with the outlet of Ma'adim and the exit from Gusev Lake?

It's my understanding, from the analyses of the rocks on the Gusev plains I've seen and been told about, that Gusev was filled with lava flows *after* the Noachian times in which it may have held a lake. This is especially suggested by the way in which the basalts of the plains embay those elements of the original sedimentary surface that were topographically higher than the mean level of lava fill.

In other words -- aren't the original delta materials, and any other lacustrine materials, out on the plains buried under tens of meters of basaltic lava flow? (I mean, it was my understanding that Bonneville proved to the geology team that the layer if basaltic lava was definitely thicker than Bonneville had excavated -- thought would be in the tens of meters, right?)

It would take a hell of a dust devil to get down to that layer, wouldn't it?

-the other Doug

Posted by: Nix Mar 16 2005, 07:26 AM

that is a quote of Bill, which I incorrectly quoted (typo). apologies.

The last flows adding a layer of material to Gusev's floor were indeed volcanic flows which is evident from what we see, and read about of course. It would indeed take giant dust-devils to remove even parts of these layers since they are like you say probably several meters in thickness. In some places the estimated thickness of the youngest unit is thinner but I also think it's not relevant to the dd alleys. Bill also talked about micrometeorology meanwhile for the cause of the darkness of the alley's.
I hope we will learn more soon about this supposed buried layer of lacustrine materials as we go higher up the hills. There seem to be more signs of water erosion the higher they go. It seems unit AHgf1 dates from the upper Hesperian while the Hills (designated unit Ahbm1) are from the lower Hesperian. (http://geopubs.wr.usgs.gov/docs/wrgis/mars.html) The hills would thus be older than the surrounding terrain, suppose they where at first partially eroded by water and later on by volcanic flows. While the higher elevations of the hills are eroded away fastest you would expect this ancient water-eroded layer to appear from under the youngest layers..?

Posted by: djellison Mar 16 2005, 08:41 AM

QUOTE (slinted @ Mar 16 2005, 03:05 AM)
I would think that the colorization, mosaicing, and otherwise modifying the images would fall under (from the JPL image use policy):
QUOTE
"Unless otherwise noted, images and video on JPL public web sites (public sites ending with a jpl.nasa.gov address) may be used for any purpose without prior permission..."

and as to actual copyright on the images...
QUOTE
"1. that Caltech makes no representations or warranties with respect to ownership of copyrights in the images..."

Wouldn't that mean that they are not claiming copyright over the raw images?

Thankyou slinted - I was going to post the same thing in response to Stephen. There is no copyright on NASA/JPL/Cornell imagery. There is - however - copyright on the work people do using it.

Doug

Posted by: Stephen Mar 16 2005, 09:00 AM

QUOTE (slinted @ Mar 16 2005, 03:05 AM)
I would think that the colorization, mosaicing, and otherwise modifying the images would fall under (from the JPL image use policy):
QUOTE
"Unless otherwise noted, images and video on JPL public web sites (public sites ending with a jpl.nasa.gov address) may be used for any purpose without prior permission..."


You're probably right.

QUOTE (slinted @ Mar 16 2005, 03:05 AM)
and as to actual copyright on the images...
QUOTE
"1. that Caltech makes no representations or warranties with respect to ownership of copyrights in the images..."

Wouldn't that mean that they are not claiming copyright over the raw images?

I am not a lawyer, but IMHO the answer may be both yes and no. Consider a fuller version of the quote you gave of that portion of JPL's image policy.

QUOTE
By electing to download the material from this web site the user agrees:

1. that Caltech makes no representations or warranties with respect to ownership of copyrights in the images, and does not represent others who may claim to be authors or owners of copyright of any of the images, and makes no warranties as to the quality of the images. Caltech shall not be responsible for any loss or expenses resulting from the use of the images, and you release and hold Caltech harmless from all liability arising from such use.

That first line ("By electing to download the material from this web site the user agrees") is an attempt to indemnify Caltech. By downloading an image, the user is agreeing to the terms in the policy.

As to the terms themselves, a "warranty" is a guarantee and a "representation" is a "claim". Which means while that bit about Caltech "makes no representations or warranties with respect to ownership of copyrights in the image" could well be interpreted as saying that Caltech itself is making no claims of copyright ownership, it is also saying that neither is Caltech giving any guarantees that someday somebody else might not come knocking on the downloader's door with a writ.

In that context, I note the credit line is "NASA/JPL-Caltech", suggesting that copyright in the images may be owned jointly by both NASA and Caltech.

In other words that clause is more about protecting Caltech than about giving the downloader any additional rights.

EDIT: Oops! I see Doug got in with a more definitive answer ahead of my speculation.

Posted by: alan Mar 17 2005, 03:37 AM

Wow, I never would have expected the dust storm to have this sharp of an edge
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-16/2P164269806EFFA8B3P2664L4M1.JPG

Posted by: Simon Mar 17 2005, 09:28 AM

Image use policy at SpaceDaily.com

Hi all,

My apologies for not joining this excellent forum earlier. But there is only so many hours in the day to do an ever long to do list.

For the record we are not using any Mars images obtained from this site. We used some images of Titan at the time of the Titan landing that in most cases were clearly labeled where they had come from.

I will say though, that it was directly from information about imaging processing and accessing QT found here on this forum, that enabled us to completely overhaul our Mars imaging over Xmas 2004 and go color from then on.

But the real breakthrough in our Mars image production has been that outstanding product Mars Midnight Browser. What a toy!

On another issue, it should be realised that there is no valid copyright on any images made using any NASA/JPL derived data. No matter what one does with this data at no stage under US copyright law does anyone get the right to assert copyright over any of the pictures made with from Raw Image Data.

And this includes all the images we are making and publishing, and any image published in National Geographic or on CNN. There simply is no ability to assert copyright over data obtained from the public domain and which is not unique in any substantive way. I'm sure every Bush Mars lawyer from here to Hellas will try to argue otherwise, but the US has very clear rules on copyright and once something is commonly available from within the public domain then there is no ability to assert a valid copyright over any material derived from such data.

In regards to what people are contributing here on this forum, I think it is great and that this forum is by far the most interesting space exploration forum on the internet at the moment.

There is an open invitation to anyone contributing here on this forum to send image and supporting text material to SpaceDaily for inclusion in our regular daily playlist of stories. We are in the process of re doing our Desktop database and would be more than happy to make images from readers here available on SpaceDaily. We don't place any watermarks or logos on any of our desktops as we think this detracts for the artistic value of these images. We will credit contributions people make via captions and stories etc.

One idea we are looking at is fully illustrating the sol by sol reports and inserting a pix for each sols activity description. We also want to try and do a new color pix everyday. And we are also looking at doing a "today on mars one year ago" page. Newspapers/magazines love one year, 10 year, 50 years ago in xxx type departments and with our dear Rover's still doing Mars one year on, it would make a great page to do something like this.

If any of Doug's readers would like to contribute images and material you can contact me via simon at spacedaily.com . If you have previously sent mail and got no reply it's probably because we have deleted your mail unopened due to the deluge of 5000 spams we get each day.

Regards
Simon

PS: As a contribution to the pool of images here - check out today's suspected meteor streak. Tell us if we got this wrong, but the data frames clearly show a single streak in one frame only and that there is no scratches or dirt on the camera filters.

http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-sol426-meteor-desk-1024.jpg

And here are some published and unpublished color desktops

(note these are not meant to be better than what people are already doing here, they are simply made available by us to better illustrate the Mars reports we carry and help bring Mars alive to our readers.)

http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-sol424-xtracks-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-sol-422-rocky-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-feb23-sol45-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-sol-420-1-dustdevils-pana.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-gusev-view-fc456-sol412-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-peace-bigrat-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-larrys-lookout-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-valley2-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-rocks-color1-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-merb-tracks-fc257-sol367-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-merb-crater-fc257-sol389-desk-1024.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-merb-self-feb05-desk-1024.jpg

Posted by: djellison Mar 17 2005, 10:16 AM

QUOTE (Simon @ Mar 17 2005, 09:28 AM)
On another issue, it should be realised that there is no valid copyright on any images made using any NASA/JPL derived data. No matter what one does with this data at no stage under US copyright law does anyone get the right to assert copyright over any of the pictures made with from Raw Image Data.


I am absolutely, 100% sure that this is wrong. I stand by the fact that mosaics I have made are my own copyright and ditto the work of everyone else around here.

Case in point : The work of Michael Light with his Full Moon book is his own copyright. The source imagery isnt - but the published results are. That the publishing of mosaics and so forth by people here is online and not in print doesnt change anything.


That aside (and we'll have to agree to disagree on that one)


In email - Simon's explained to me where the imagery for Space Daily has come from, and in response to that, I'm apologising for jumping to a few wrong conclusions and culling a few posts to clear the air. I was in a bit of a mood anyway, and Alans pointing of a similarity had be switched to 'rant' mode smile.gif

Anyhoo - enough of that - back to business - yes - it is odd the way the dust seems to hang as a 'curtain' a few km away. If you animated the L456 morning imagery taken in that direction you can see if move.

Doug

Posted by: djellison Mar 17 2005, 10:28 AM

QUOTE (tedstryk @ Mar 11 2005, 01:19 AM)
I hereby withdraw my prognosis that Spirit's days are numbered. biggrin.gif

I wouldnt - look

Sol 411
Sol 412
Sol 413

ALL of Spirits days are numbered. smile.gif

Posted by: tedstryk Mar 17 2005, 10:41 AM

Yes, but there will likely be a whole lot more numbers now! And a lot more accomplished during those numbered sols. tongue.gif

As to the copyright issue, Doug, you are correct. It is general NASA policy not to assert copyright. The basic idea is that since the missions are publicly funded, the data should be public, although there is the proprietary period for experimenters before a lot of that data is released.

Posted by: djellison Mar 17 2005, 11:01 AM

Dare one say it - Opportunitys days are numbered as well

Doug

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 17 2005, 12:04 PM

QUOTE
I am absolutely, 100% sure that this is wrong. I stand by the fact that mosaics I have made are my own copyright and ditto the work of everyone else around here.


Doug, not wishing to toss more wood onto this conflagration, but you _can_ copyright a derivative work. IE, something created from other photographic elements. You can also get in trouble if that derivative work is derived from items that you do not hold the copyright on.

--Bill

Posted by: djellison Mar 17 2005, 12:41 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Mar 17 2005, 12:04 PM)
You can also get in trouble if that derivative work is derived from items that you do not hold the copyright on.

Yup - but as NASA data is copyright free, that is not an issue smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: dvandorn Mar 17 2005, 04:21 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 17 2005, 10:28 AM)
QUOTE (tedstryk @ Mar 11 2005, 01:19 AM)
I hereby withdraw my prognosis that Spirit's days are numbered. biggrin.gif

I wouldnt - look

Sol 411
Sol 412
Sol 413

ALL of Spirits days are numbered. smile.gif

Hissss.... Groannnn....

Seriously, though (and I'm delighted to be asking this seriously), anyone wanna wager on whether one or both rovers make it (in some kind of useful condition) to Sol 1000?

Of course, Steve Squyres might end up in the hospital from exhaustion by then... *smile*...

-the other Doug

Posted by: Of counsel Mar 17 2005, 04:26 PM

This is a wonderful site. I've been a lurker for six months. I get my daily fix of Mars rover information and insights here. But I've never had anything to contribute, so never registered . . . until now.

Federal statute exempts all works created by employees and officers of the U.S. goverment from copyright protection. This exemption covers NASA and JPL. The rover images can never be copyrighted. It's NOT because they are in the so-called "public domain." Novels by authors such as John Grisham are "in the public domain" but still protected by copyright law. If you wish to look further into this subject, start in the Copyright Act, whose key provisions on this subject are found at 17 U.S.C. (United States Code) Sections 101 and 105.

The more complicated question is whether your "derivative works" from those rover images are entitled to protection. I'm not going to try to define where one draws the line between a derivative work (which is entitled to no copyright protection) and a protectible work that includes enough "creative expression" to differentiate it from the orginal JPL images. This complex subject is covered in numerous court decisions and the line is often not easy to draw. However, be careful in claiming protection for your works that merely stitch together rover images into panoramas or alter contrast or color intensities.

The good news is that you no longer have to register your work to be protected by the copyright law, or place a copyright symbol next to it---steps you need to take if you want to sue someone or an organization.

I must also tell you: This post is not legal advice. If you need legal advice, contact your own lawyer. Copyright law is a complicated legal subject, so don't rely on what I'm saying.

Keep up the great posting!

Posted by: Of counsel Mar 17 2005, 04:34 PM

pls ignore

Posted by: David Mar 17 2005, 04:37 PM

The issue, I think, is whether there is sufficient creative input to make the resulting image a new work. With a text, for instance, you don't get copyright over your version of a public domain work that you published just because you used a different font and a nicer binding. If you added illustrations, or a glossary, or something like that, then you'd have copyright over your additions and could stop someone from reproducing the text with its additions -- but not the original text itself.

If you take an image not under copyright and make significant creative changes to it, then you have copyright over those elements that you changed. But the exact line between what is creative, and what is merely technical, is something that could only be decided for certain in a court of law. The odds of being able to successfully prosecute such a case are not very good (without Hollywood-priced lawyers anyway); I think an appeal to ethics would be of more force than an appeal to the law.

Posted by: mhoward Mar 17 2005, 04:37 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 17 2005, 04:21 PM)
Seriously, though (and I'm delighted to be asking this seriously), anyone wanna wager on whether one or both rovers make it (in some kind of useful condition) to Sol 1000?

I've been wondering for some time now if any of the software they use would have a "Sol 1000" problem. For example, in the pathnames for the raw images, the sol number is padded to three digits. I hope we get to find out.

Posted by: chris Mar 17 2005, 05:03 PM

QUOTE
I've been wondering for some time now if any of the software they use would have a "Sol 1000" problem. For example, in the pathnames for the raw images, the sol number is padded to three digits. I hope we get to find out.


My consultancy rates for the S1K problem are very reasonable....

Posted by: djellison Mar 17 2005, 05:16 PM

QUOTE (Of counsel @ Mar 17 2005, 04:26 PM)
The more complicated question is whether your "derivative works" from those rover images are entitled to protection.  I'm not going to try to define where one draws the line between a derivative work (which is entitled to no copyright protection) and a protectible work that includes enough "creative expression" to differentiate it from the orginal JPL images.

I think the difference between

http://anserver1.eprsl.wustl.edu/navigops/download.aspx?prodId=2P162763650RATA800P2267L2C1

and

http://mer.rlproject.com/s410_husband_t.jpg

is significant. It's the result of hours of work- and in the case of a full panorama, days of work.

Just because JPL have (or in the case of the Larry's Lookout pan, will) taken the same data to generate a different looking mosaic imho doesnt weaken the fact that when I generate something as a result of hard work from public data, that something is mine.

The same is true of the images within 'Full Moon' for instance. Yes - source imagery is freely available photographs - but the stitching work he did to generate the large panoramas render the results to be his own work. That they are published in a book doesnt render them any more or less his own work than a mosaic I publish online. You can bet your ass that if someone lifted imagery from Full Moon and passed it off without credit, Random House / Johnathan Cape would be after them, and rightly so.

If imagery I, or anyone else have made is worth 'lifting' without credit, then imho it infers that the creativity and effort involved in making it is of a scale that defines it as being eligable for copyright. If it wasnt, then the person 'lifting' it would simply make it themselves instead of grabbing it. This is where I wrongly assumed spacedaily had gone wrong, in actual fact, Stephen had generated the RGB imagery himself - and it was basically the same as what had appeared here - indistiguishable - so even if he HAD lifted it, it wouldnt really be an issue.

HOWEVER

A large, complex mosaic, panorama, animation etc - that is a different story. There is creativity, time, experience and in the case of some panorama software - money involved in making that picture - as a result it is someones property.

An even greater issue than this, however, the moral issue. You just dont steal someones hard work - it's as simple as that. Ask them, give them credit, but dont take without asking. That is something that has happened with an image of mine on a website I found whilst randonly googling. Not even downloaded and added to their own webspace - actually straight direct linked from my own webspace. I simply re-uploaded the image with the words "IMAGE THIEF" on top of it wink.gif

Doug

Posted by: djellison Mar 17 2005, 05:23 PM

QUOTE (chris @ Mar 17 2005, 05:03 PM)
QUOTE
I've been wondering for some time now if any of the software they use would have a "Sol 1000" problem. For example, in the pathnames for the raw images, the sol number is padded to three digits. I hope we get to find out.


My consultancy rates for the S1K problem are very reasonable....

I was thinking the same back on sol 99 smile.gif

"Hmm - wonder if the rover can handle up to 9999 or not?"

I guess we have time between now and then ( a year+ ) in which newer flight software could be written to eleviate the problem

Doug

Posted by: akuo Mar 17 2005, 05:32 PM

QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 17 2005, 04:21 PM)
Seriously, though (and I'm delighted to be asking this seriously), anyone wanna wager on whether one or both rovers make it (in some kind of useful condition) to Sol 1000?


The next major milestone in terms of longevity is in my opinion surviving a full Mars year (about 669 sols). The rovers will soon be 2/3rds there.

I will really celebrate that sol!

Posted by: djellison Mar 17 2005, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (akuo @ Mar 17 2005, 05:32 PM)
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 17 2005, 04:21 PM)
Seriously, though (and I'm delighted to be asking this seriously), anyone wanna wager on whether one or both rovers make it (in some kind of useful condition) to Sol 1000?


The next major milestone in terms of longevity is in my opinion surviving a full Mars year (about 669 sols). The rovers will soon be 2/3rds there.

I will really celebrate that sol!

I had a quiet "woo yay" when the two rovers added up to that date -a year of martian surface operations smile.gif

Doug

Posted by: Of counsel Mar 17 2005, 07:35 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 17 2005, 05:16 PM)
An even greater issue than this, however, the moral issue.  You just dont steal someones hard work - it's as simple as that. Ask them, give them credit, but dont take without asking.

Doug, you have very good reason to be upset about someone using your work without giving you credit. They shouldn't. I'd be angry if I were in your shoes.

The legal reality, however, is that in the U.S. (at least) copyright law generally does not protect "ideas," "facts," "information," "data," or hard work--"the sweat of the brow." Whether British law is different, I don't know, but because of the Berne Convention, I suspect it is similar. Copyright law is only suppose to protect creative expression. That's why phonebooks can't be copyrighted. They're data ordered A-Z.

Portions of "compilations" can be protected under copyright law. 17 U.S.C. Section 103. Cape's "Full Moon" is a compilation, and his copyright only extends to his contribution to the work, but not to the NASA photographs he used. I have not reviewed his book. But I suspect that you could copy a photograph from his book, derived from NASA, without violating his copyright. (Cape's selection and ordering of the NASA photographs, however, may be protectible expression. But copying individual photographs will likely raise no copyright issues.)

"Lifting" pictures without credit is lousy conduct. If done by a publication, it may violate the ethical standards of journalists. There isn't a legal remedy, however, for all instances of bad behavior.

Having said all that, I am sure that more than 99% of those who come to this forum respect the integrity of your work and would sorely miss it should you and the other contributors quit creating it. So please don't. smile.gif


Here goes: This post is NOT legal advice. If you need legal advice, contact your own lawyer, don't rely on me for anything. Sorry, everyone, it's the malpractice insurance carriers that require we do this.

Posted by: ToSeek Mar 17 2005, 08:22 PM

QUOTE (akuo @ Mar 17 2005, 05:32 PM)
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Mar 17 2005, 04:21 PM)
Seriously, though (and I'm delighted to be asking this seriously), anyone wanna wager on whether one or both rovers make it (in some kind of useful condition) to Sol 1000?


The next major milestone in terms of longevity is in my opinion surviving a full Mars year (about 669 sols). The rovers will soon be 2/3rds there.

I will really celebrate that sol!

How about when Spirit and Opportunity have combined for 1000 sols on Mars?

Posted by: ToSeek Mar 17 2005, 08:25 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 17 2005, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (chris @ Mar 17 2005, 05:03 PM)
QUOTE
I've been wondering for some time now if any of the software they use would have a "Sol 1000" problem. For example, in the pathnames for the raw images, the sol number is padded to three digits. I hope we get to find out.


My consultancy rates for the S1K problem are very reasonable....

I was thinking the same back on sol 99 smile.gif

"Hmm - wonder if the rover can handle up to 9999 or not?"

I guess we have time between now and then ( a year+ ) in which newer flight software could be written to eleviate the problem

Doug

I would be willing to bet that the spacecraft software uses the same time that we see in the names of the images and so won't have any problems.

The website, however, had problems on January 1, and it wouldn't surprise me to see other problems if one of the rovers makes it to Sol 1000. But wouldn't it be great to have that kind of problem!?

Posted by: lyford Mar 17 2005, 11:43 PM

Hmmm - the rovers had problems with the Flash RAM and the MER website had problems with the Flash animation - COINCIDENCE or CONSPIRACY?!?!?!? blink.gif

Posted by: erwan Mar 18 2005, 12:57 AM

Lyford: what a question; CONSPIRACY, it's obvious.
Linked below is an anaglyph for one of the Dust Devils seen on Sol 421; from enhanced NAVCAM images. JPG 800x400, 291kb.

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs20&d=05115&f=DDSol421ana03.jpg

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 18 2005, 02:29 AM

QUOTE
I think the difference between

http://anserver1.eprsl.wustl.edu/navigops/...ATA800P2267L2C1

and

http://mer.rlproject.com/s410_husband_t.jpg

is significant. It's the result of hours of work- and in the case of a full panorama, days of work.


Doug, and "Of Counsel"--

Yep, intellectual property and copyright law is a can o'worms. "IANAL", but I'm inclined to think that Doug's taking the individial R, G and B-ish public-domain images and combining, stitching and otherwise massaging the numbers into a panorama adds value to those strings of numbers that they could be considered a new and novel work.

Copyright law tends to be antiquated and somewhat quaint...

No flames. Of Counsel has good advice.

--Bill

Posted by: Nix Mar 18 2005, 07:55 AM

QUOTE (Of counsel @ Mar 17 2005, 07:35 PM)
Having said all that, I am sure that more than 99% of those who come to this forum respect the integrity of your work and would sorely miss it should you and the other contributors quit creating it. So please don't. smile.gif

I doubt either of us will quit making panoramas etc...For me it's my passion for the Martian geology and landscape in general combined with an interest in optimizing en enhancing digital imagery and if we weren't allowed to share it in the first place I'd still be doing it. tongue.gif
I agree with Doug in that if you put a lot of time, work, money in assembling a panorama you should get the respect of being credited. A simple line; courtesy Nasa/JPL/Caltech---colorized by xxx. / ..stitched by xxx. Also, people doing this kind of processing always have alternate version or improved versions of their work afterwards. I think this is more respectfully towards Nasa/Jpl too, people should know when a color image or pan is released by the official instances or by an 'outsider'.
There is simply to great a difference between let's say 6 raw files and an 'approximate true color' image, especially when one uses for example 120 original images to create a 20-frames colorized panorama.
That said; I'm gonna start my latest project; another color panorama.
'Original images courtesy Nasa/JPL/Caltech-produced by NIX.' biggrin.gif

Posted by: tedstryk Mar 18 2005, 12:28 PM

The NASA copyright-free policy has been a long standing thing. And the right of people who privately do work on the images to claim copyright also has precedent. This discussion is really taking a turn towards the ridiculous.

Posted by: djellison Mar 18 2005, 01:02 PM

QUOTE (tedstryk @ Mar 18 2005, 12:28 PM)
And the right of people who privately do work o the images also has precedent.

Really? Where/When/What?

When I more formerly 'publish' stuff - I put a credit on it thus...

Image : Douglas Ellison (2005)
Data : JPL/NASA/Cornell

FWIW - If someone thinks something is worth stealing, then obviously it has enough value to be valid for protection of some sort.

Doug

Posted by: SFJCody Mar 19 2005, 01:15 AM

http://www.cornellsun.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/03/18/423a62155baac

The new stuff:

"Spirit is now producing close to 800 watt-hours of solar energy."

"Along with the increase in energy output, however, the dust storm wrought some negative consequences on the image quality of the rover's cameras.

"The dust storm is good for increasing the available solar input but at the same time, it's making it harder to get true-color images of the surface," said Alex Shapero '06, a student who works on the calibration of the panoramic images. The storm appears to have deposited dust on the rover's calibration target, a device that filters out atmospheric contamination in the images and allows technicians to develop the pictures in their true colors.

In the coming weeks, the Mars team hopes to reach the summit of Husband Hill, one of the highest points inside Gusev crater. Scientists hope that the rover will encounter different types of rocks on its trek to the top of Husband Hill, and on its exploration of the other side. "It turns out there would also be a hell of a view from the summit if we get there," Squyres said."

Posted by: MahFL Mar 19 2005, 03:23 AM

I like this quote "It turns out there would also be a hell of a view from the summit if we get there," Squyres said.
Can't wait to get there.

Posted by: Jeff7 Mar 19 2005, 04:35 AM

QUOTE (MahFL @ Mar 19 2005, 03:23 AM)
I like this quote "It turns out there would also be a hell of a view from the summit if we get there," Squyres said.
Can't wait to get there.

I imagine (and hope) that once it gets there, there're going to be a LOT of images to colorize and stitch together. 360 degree panoramas anyone? smile.gif pancam.gif

Posted by: Nix Mar 19 2005, 07:08 AM

I'm waiting. biggrin.gif

Posted by: mike Mar 19 2005, 09:57 AM

A "hell" of a view? Will we see Satan? Eternally burning souls, tortured in unending damnation? Sweet!

Posted by: ToSeek Mar 20 2005, 04:59 AM

QUOTE (mike @ Mar 19 2005, 09:57 AM)
A "hell" of a view? Will we see Satan? Eternally burning souls, tortured in unending damnation? Sweet!

Hey, that dark depression on the southeast side of the Hills looks mighty suspicious to me! Maybe we shouldn't look too closely....

Posted by: mike Mar 20 2005, 06:53 AM

QUOTE (ToSeek @ Mar 19 2005, 08:59 PM)
QUOTE (mike @ Mar 19 2005, 09:57 AM)
A "hell" of a view?  Will we see Satan?  Eternally burning souls, tortured in unending damnation?  Sweet!

Hey, that dark depression on the southeast side of the Hills looks mighty suspicious to me! Maybe we shouldn't look too closely....

I'd be glad if Spirit did spot hell.. it would clear up a lot of theological questions a lot of people have had since the beginning of time, though hell is a depressing concept when you come right down to it.

It just struck me that it's an odd way to describe it.. a hell of a view.. maybe I'm analyzing English colloquiallisms a bit too deeply, eh.. or maybe Steve Squyres really does fear what we'll find on Mars and he should be thrown out of NASA for being a big wuss and not a pioneer. Or maybe he WANTS to find hell on Mars. Clearly Steve is a menace and he must be stopped. Before it's too late?

Posted by: ToSeek Mar 20 2005, 03:14 PM

QUOTE (mike @ Mar 20 2005, 06:53 AM)
QUOTE (ToSeek @ Mar 19 2005, 08:59 PM)
QUOTE (mike @ Mar 19 2005, 09:57 AM)
A "hell" of a view?  Will we see Satan?  Eternally burning souls, tortured in unending damnation?  Sweet!

Hey, that dark depression on the southeast side of the Hills looks mighty suspicious to me! Maybe we shouldn't look too closely....

I'd be glad if Spirit did spot hell.. it would clear up a lot of theological questions a lot of people have had since the beginning of time, though hell is a depressing concept when you come right down to it.

It just struck me that it's an odd way to describe it.. a hell of a view.. maybe I'm analyzing English colloquiallisms a bit too deeply, eh.. or maybe Steve Squyres really does fear what we'll find on Mars and he should be thrown out of NASA for being a big wuss and not a pioneer. Or maybe he WANTS to find hell on Mars. Clearly Steve is a menace and he must be stopped. Before it's too late?

I think you're reading too much into it - "hell of a" is a fairly common intensifying phrase in colloquial speech. I am reminded of this joke:

QUOTE
A man went to church, and afterward, stopped to shake the preacher's hand. He said, "Preacher, that was a damn' fine sermon.  Damn' good!"

    The preacher said, "Thank you sir.  But I'd rather you didn't use that kind of language in the Lord's House."

    The man said, "I was so damned impressed with that sermon I put five thousand dollars in the offering plate!"

    The preacher said, "Thank you.  That's one hell of a lot of money!"

Posted by: djellison Mar 21 2005, 10:53 AM

Yes - he's just expressing 'good' in a casual way. Hell, I'd be using hell a hell of a lot more than he has smile.gif

Anyhoo - amazingly, the only .rad's I cant get are sols 412-426 (the interesting sols) - but this is genuine before and after stuff - blows me away every time - hopefully I will be able to add the interim days as and when rad's appear.



Doug

Posted by: mhoward Mar 21 2005, 11:07 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 21 2005, 10:53 AM)
Anyhoo - amazingly, the only .rad's I cant get are sols 412-426 (the interesting sols) - but this is genuine before and after stuff - blows me away every time - hopefully I will be able to add the interim days as and when rad's appear.

That is really great. Doug, are the .rad's for sols that recent publicly available somewhere?

Posted by: TheChemist Mar 21 2005, 11:15 AM

Doug, this animation is amazing, what a thorough cleaning of the rover. This was no gentle breeze that caused it smile.gif

What a pity that there is no image from the rover exactly when the wind gust or dust devil hit the rover. That would have been awesome !

Posted by: djellison Mar 21 2005, 11:16 AM

QUOTE (mhoward @ Mar 21 2005, 11:07 AM)
QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 21 2005, 10:53 AM)
Anyhoo - amazingly, the only .rad's I cant get are sols 412-426 (the interesting sols) - but this is genuine before and after stuff - blows me away every time - hopefully I will be able to add the interim days as and when rad's appear.

That is really great. Doug, are the .rad's for sols that recent publicly available somewhere?

Ermm. no

unsure.gif

Oh - look - an interesting page of images form Sol 180

http://anserver1.eprsl.wustl.edu/navigops/prodOverview.aspx?rover=A&sol=180

Hmm - ...ops/prodOverview.aspx?rover=A&sol=180

Now that's interesting

Doug

Posted by: arccos Mar 21 2005, 01:10 PM

QUOTE (mike @ Mar 19 2005, 09:57 AM)
A "hell" of a view?  Will we see Satan?  Eternally burning souls, tortured in unending damnation?  Sweet!

Sure it's on Mars. Haven't you played Doom? smile.gif

Posted by: mike Mar 21 2005, 02:27 PM

QUOTE (arccos @ Mar 21 2005, 05:10 AM)
QUOTE (mike @ Mar 19 2005, 09:57 AM)
A "hell" of a view?  Will we see Satan?  Eternally burning souls, tortured in unending damnation?  Sweet!

Sure it's on Mars. Haven't you played Doom? smile.gif

Heheh, yeah, but that all happened on Phobos. Doom 3 I'm not so sure about it. Those darned scientists and their experiments..

Posted by: Gray Mar 21 2005, 02:36 PM

Let's see, Mars was the Roman god of war.
According to William Tecumseh Sherman (US civil war general), "War is Hell."
Therefore, Hell should be on Mars.

By the way, a person, aldo12xu, who posts on the Mark Carey forum and sometimes here, has proposed the name Ultreya Abyss for the dark region on the southeast side of the hills.

Posted by: lyford Mar 21 2005, 04:05 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 21 2005, 03:16 AM)
QUOTE (mhoward @ Mar 21 2005, 11:07 AM)
That is really great. Doug, are the .rad's for sols that recent publicly available somewhere?

Ermm. no

unsure.gif

Oh - look - an interesting page of images form Sol 180

http://anserver1.eprsl.wustl.edu/navigops/prodOverview.aspx?rover=A&sol=180

Hmm - ...ops/prodOverview.aspx?rover=A&sol=180

Now that's interesting

Doug

Doug, you sly devil! laugh.gif And I thought that technique only worked on, um, artistic sites.unsure.gif

This thread is getting positively apocalyptic what with all the devilry (dust and others) and helliness... I wonder what would happen if i read it backwards?

Posted by: djellison Mar 21 2005, 04:23 PM

QUOTE (lyford @ Mar 21 2005, 04:05 PM)
Doug, you sly devil! laugh.gif

I thought everyone knew smile.gif

Just dont go spreading around THAT much tongue.gif

Doug

Posted by: Pando Mar 21 2005, 04:35 PM

QUOTE (Gray @ Mar 21 2005, 07:36 AM)
By the way, a person, aldo12xu, who posts on the Mark Carey forum and sometimes here, has proposed the name Ultreya Abyss for the dark region on the southeast side of the hills.

That was actually Ustrax, not aldo12xu who proposed that name.

Just to put the record straight smile.gif

Posted by: djellison Mar 21 2005, 04:59 PM

And it's not really an Abyss - more of a 'bit behind a hill' wink.gif

Doug

Posted by: slinted Mar 21 2005, 05:10 PM

We may have another! The near-horizon navcam subframes that have been taken lately might have captured another dust devil.

Spirit, Sol 431
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-21/2N164622098ESFA8B3P1954R0M1.JPG


The above image is cropped, and brightness adjusted from the original
At this time, the L frame isn't down yet, when it is, it will help to confirm if this as a dust devil or a lens flare.

Posted by: djellison Mar 21 2005, 05:13 PM

QUOTE (slinted @ Mar 21 2005, 05:10 PM)
We may have another! The near-horizon navcam subframes that have been taken lately might have captured another dust devil.

Spirit, Sol 431
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-21/2N164622098ESFA8B3P1954R0M1.JPG


The above image is cropped, and brightness adjusted from the original
At this time, the L frame isn't down yet, when it is it will help corroborate this.

But it can be seen 36 seconds earlier

http://qt.exploratorium.edu:16080/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-21/2N164622063ESFA8B3P1956L0M1.JPG

If they really did a couple of images at 36s intervals ( something I was actually thinking of earlier - do 1024 x 128 images every 30s for 30 minutes one afternoon. ) - we could actually have a devil movie here

Doug

Posted by: slinted Mar 21 2005, 05:40 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 21 2005, 05:13 PM)
But it can be seen 36 seconds earlier
http://qt.exploratorium.edu:16080/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-21/2N164622063ESFA8B3P1956L0M1.JPG
Doug

Yes, it does look like it shows up in the left frame although a little harder to pick out.

Source images:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-21/2N164622063ESFA8B3P1956L0M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-21/2N164622098ESFA8B3P1954R0M1.JPG



Size doubled, Brightness/Contrast Enhanced, Cropped from originals...available courtesy NASA/JPL-Caltech/Cornell smile.gif

The feature is much more diffuse and less distinct in the left frame, but is still visible in comparision to the right frame taken 35 seconds later. This must be quite a busy time in Gusev crater, with all these dust devils about.

Posted by: mhoward Mar 21 2005, 05:43 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 21 2005, 05:13 PM)
But it can be seen 36 seconds earlier

http://qt.exploratorium.edu:16080/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-21/2N164622063ESFA8B3P1956L0M1.JPG

That sure looks like more movement than could be accounted for by the left / right camera difference. Doesn't look particularly like camera glare to me, either, although I could be wrong. cool.gif They really should do that movie. Or maybe they already have, and the frames just haven't come down yet.

Posted by: Buck Galaxy Mar 21 2005, 06:07 PM

Looks like you got it. YOu can even see the darkening of the sky as it moves from right to left. Awesome!

Posted by: Pando Mar 21 2005, 07:36 PM

Nice! I'm curious what direction is this looking at?

Posted by: slinted Mar 21 2005, 08:53 PM

The sol 431 navcam covers almost the same area as the original navcam with the dust devil (i'm refering to the brighter of the two Spirit spotted on sol 421) although the more recent event was further to the right (north). If I've got the angles right, then the sol 421 dust devil was west and the sol 431 was northwest.

Here is a mosaic of
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-10/2N163745885EFFA890P0775L0M1.JPG
and
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-03-21/2N164622063ESFA8B3P1956L0M1.JPG


Posted by: wyogold Mar 22 2005, 03:08 AM

oh soo cool. We need to drop off a couple cameras off here just so "WE" can keep looking for the dust devils. and thanks for the link to the "sol 180" images wink.gif

scott

Posted by: Simon Mar 22 2005, 08:17 AM

Nice set these pairs. Took a while to decide how to cast them. I decide to leave a left hand bump in, and add a bit of mono color. The second frame show a clear upwell above.



There's also a slight hint of a double devil in the same area. But there are so many artifacts in these images that only get worse as you adjust contrast etc.

But this pair might be worth a real clean up to see what's hidden in there.

simon

Posted by: mhoward Mar 23 2005, 06:29 PM

Have I gone crazy? I'm seeing dustdevils everywhere now:

these first frames are in the same location (different filter) just 22 seconds apart, I think:
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164806767ESFA8C5P2669L2M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164806789ESFA8C5P2669L7M1.JPG

then these other ones from the same sequence of images:

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807005ESFA8C5P2669L2M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807244ESFA8C5P2669L7M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807312ESFA8C5P2669L2M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807401ESFA8C5P2669L2M1.JPG

And probably more besides...

These are all from Spirit Sol 433, if you're looking in MMB...

Posted by: Chmee Mar 23 2005, 06:36 PM

I think you are right, they do look like dust devils! Nice catch. It is quite exciting to see weather events like this on Mars. Now if we just had some rain... smile.gif

Posted by: akuo Mar 23 2005, 07:01 PM

It looks like there is dust hovering all over the plains and the dust devils are maybe coming and going within that maelstrom. You can see pale features ("Sleepy hollows") fading in and out in mhoward's pair of images.

The scientist should do a longer movie during the best time for dust devils, especially with all the power available now.

Posted by: Chmee Mar 23 2005, 08:52 PM

How quickly can the Nav/Pan Cameras take pictures? Could they point at one spot looking at the Gusev plain and take 20 pictures each 1-2 seconds apart to make a "movie" of the dust devils?

Posted by: Simon Mar 24 2005, 12:01 AM

Sure are a nice catch. Maybe I'll make a slide show of all the dust devils so far.

There does seem to be a lot more images set up to try and capture dust devils. Given the view, weather conditions and power available it would seem to be a good chance to do a detailed study of DDs for a week or so. In the absence of rain they do seem to be the major weather activity on Mars and critical to much of the slow erosion.

This is what that outback geologist who wrote for SpaceDaily a couple of years ago was trying to put forward. Nick Hoffman relies partly on a different process

Any this amateur geologist wrote some details essays on Martian geology that did no rely on water at all. When you sit out the back in Australia you realise that a lot can happen given enough time without water. Just the wind and the sun can tear and wear the land away.

I'll dig out the URLs out post them here later today.

My MMB is about to spit out today's slide show and two of the devils today looked like desktop material. Broad based structure beyond just a simple vertical conical disturbance.

Cheers,
Simon

Posted by: Simon Mar 24 2005, 12:22 AM

Sorry no time to make dust devil movies - but here's a quick fake color dust devil desktop:



the desktop link is here:
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mars-mera-sol-433-dustdevil-desk-1024.jpg

Image data by NASA, collated with MMB, presentation by SpaceDaily.
Image is public domain.

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 24 2005, 01:15 AM

Thanks, Simon. Nice image.

--Bill

Posted by: mhoward Mar 24 2005, 02:17 AM

I'm using it as my desktop.

Posted by: wyogold Mar 24 2005, 05:54 AM

wow thanks much simon.

here a neat false color image I came across today. You can see how the wind left trails in the dust across spirits solar array. I enhanced the colors a bit to make this stand out more.

let me know if this dosen't work. I'm trying to find a reliable image host

http://www.imageshack.us

scott

Posted by: wyogold Mar 24 2005, 06:40 AM

After going through the rest of the fc images that are a self portrait of the rover. (can't wait to see the mosaic from these) I noticed that the solar cells that had spaces between them cleaned off really well and the ones that were tightly packed together didn't. Nasa needs to look carefully at this to see if a way to make turbulence from the blowing winds could work as a self cleaning solar cell. I think either turbulence or a gap between the solar cells could work wonders. From the photos you can see how the gaps seemed to trap dust and also where there was a wire cutting across the wind path sometimes the cells on the other side were well cleared off. very interesting.

scott

Posted by: slinted Mar 24 2005, 08:16 AM

The sol 433 dust devil (or maybe dust devils) visible in the 4 consecutive frames mentioned above by MHoward has to be their best dust devil imagery yet! If it is the same one, they have it in 4 frames over 400 seconds, and happened to be panning in the direction it was traveling. Several of the frames overlap the location of the dust devil, so it is a perfect before/after. And it is with the Pancam this time!
The times are in (this just sounds funny) Earth seconds, 0 for the first image and the time past the first for later images.
Here's a lower res animation, click through for the full size version:
http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/collections/sol433L2DD.gif

these are only the L2 filter images

Posted by: wyogold Mar 24 2005, 09:24 AM

ha ha ha you beat me to it by a few seconds rofl.....

I should be sleeping but when I saw thoes great images I just knew it was movie time. I am going to be soo tired at work tomarrow wink.gif. ooohh well I can sleep when I'm dead.

ok my movie

this was a pain to get everything right

Posted by: wyogold Mar 24 2005, 09:37 AM

I guess i should post the link to the movie (du...) It's late....or early or whatever

anyway enjoy.

http://www.imageshack.us

Posted by: djellison Mar 24 2005, 09:50 AM

I think we'll see a dedicated dust devil imaging campaign soon - in which ever filter best shows them - images every 10 seconds or so for a few minutes.

Doug

Posted by: slinted Mar 24 2005, 10:19 AM

Doug:
I think you're right that filter choice is going to be key. L7 probably isn't it...seeing as there are 4 L7 images that were taken inbetween each of the L2's which show the dust devils so well. The only L7 in which I could pick one out (slightly to the right of center) was :
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807244ESFA8C5P2669L7M1.JPG
where it is visible in the dead center of the image.

Anyone see it/them in the other 3?:
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807078ESFA8C5P2669L7M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807369ESFA8C5P2669L7M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807444ESFA8C5P2669L7M1.JPG

Posted by: chris Mar 24 2005, 11:20 AM

The latest downloads appear to have a lot of dust devils visible:

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807005ESFA8C5P2669L2M1.JPG

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807244ESFA8C5P2669L7M1.JPG

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807401ESFA8C5P2669L2M1.JPG


This one is the best, as you can actually see the vortex....

http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-23/2P164807312ESFA8C5P2669L2M1.JPG

Chris

Posted by: Tman Mar 24 2005, 11:48 AM

Amazing! That could become a great dust devil GIF animation. smile.gif But please, not so fast as the above animation, nice slow and gentle for brain smile.gif

Posted by: wyogold Mar 24 2005, 12:56 PM

QUOTE (Tman @ Mar 24 2005, 11:48 AM)
Amazing! That could become a great dust devil GIF animation.  smile.gif But please, not so fast as the above animation, nice slow and gentle for brain  smile.gif
*



better? I had it going backwards too, lastnight. I'll see if I can build it better after work. I'm new to this stuff bear with me.


http://www.imageshack.us
http://www.imageshack.us

Posted by: Tman Mar 24 2005, 01:40 PM

Yes, better tongue.gif

It would be perfect if it dosen't jump from left to right, but probably it's the problem of the lacking raw pictures, right? smile.gif

Posted by: erwan Mar 24 2005, 10:17 PM

Seems that a new Spirit self portrait mosaic was programmed on Sol 432 (Dust Devil effects evaluation?). We will probably see the entire mosaic soon on Mer official Website. Below is a small assembly (4 images) made with Autostitch v2.18 - http://www.autostitch.net/ - A wonderful free demo software! Colors by MidnightMarsBrowser.

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs21&d=05124&f=SpiritSol432-02.jpg

Posted by: wyogold Mar 25 2005, 05:06 AM

revision 2-2 of the dust devil movie.
I added one more frame. This needs a bit more refining but my photoshop skills are lacking in the transparent gif department.

better?

raw images from nasa via exploritorium downloaded by mmb
colorcorrection and manipulation by irfanview and adobe photoshop 6
animated gif created by animagic.

This movie is free to the public domain. You can steel it and make a million dollars. tongue.gif biggrin.gif

now that the lawyers are happy. rolleyes.gif

http://www.imageshack.us

Posted by: Tman Mar 25 2005, 09:09 AM

Yes, wyogold, my brain is more and more flattered...
From my millons you get the newest Photoshop with all accessories that you want, ok? biggrin.gif

Looks good!

7 from 10 points blink.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: wyogold Mar 25 2005, 10:01 AM

here is another small movie of the first dust devil in the images a few shots before the big movie. I don't think their the same but who knows. Heck I'm not sure the last one is the same dust devil but it flows nicely.

these came from images

2P164806767ESFA8C5P2669L2M1.JPG
2P164806789ESFA8C5P2669L7M1.JPG

This is the best I've seen show up on the L7 filter.

enjoy
scott

http://www.imageshack.us

Posted by: mhoward Mar 25 2005, 01:56 PM

Now JPL is lifting images from this forum wink.gif

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=1607

Posted by: akuo Mar 25 2005, 02:56 PM

QUOTE (mhoward @ Mar 25 2005, 01:56 PM)
Now JPL is lifting images from this forum  wink.gif

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=1607
*


Well... JPL was there first with almost the same comparison two months ago:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=1477

It's just easier to do the same for some us, now that actual calibration information is "accessible". :-)

Posted by: mhoward Mar 25 2005, 03:08 PM

QUOTE (akuo @ Mar 25 2005, 02:56 PM)
Well... JPL was there first with almost the same comparison two months ago:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/mer/images.cfm?id=1477
*


Ah, but that comparison was going in the wrong direction. This one is much better. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Chmee Mar 25 2005, 04:07 PM

It looks like the MER team may be trying to make movies of the dust devils. Today, they took quite a number of images of the same spot over Gustav:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-25/

I beleive they did this on 3/23 as well. Unfortunately, no dust devils today as far as I can see.

Posted by: slinted Mar 25 2005, 10:17 PM

QUOTE (Chmee @ Mar 25 2005, 08:07 AM)
It looks like the MER team may be trying to make movies of the dust devils.  Today, they took quite a number of images of the same spot over Gustav:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-25/
I beleive they did this on 3/23 as well.  Unfortunately, no dust devils today as far as I can see.
*


its only one of the many frames taken on sol 435, but this appears to have a dust devil:
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-25/2P164978242ESFA8EBP2669L2M1.JPG

Posted by: wyogold Mar 26 2005, 09:58 AM

yah another one whoo hoo.

Now if sombody could tell them to quit using the L7 filter I could make the second frame of these look better. dry.gif

http://www.imageshack.us

scott

Posted by: Tman Mar 26 2005, 09:58 AM

An attempt to make this dust devil from sol 435 better visible:

http://www.greuti.ch/spirit/2P164978242-sol435-L2.jpg

The original pic is upmost

Posted by: Bill Harris Mar 28 2005, 01:39 PM

Dust devils appear to be popping up frequently. We see them easily now since the light-colored dust shows well against the dark ground, we see a wider expanse of dark ground because Spirit is at a higher elevation on the hill.

I wonder if the dust devils were active earlier but we couldn't see them because we were at a lower elevation, or if the dust devil activity has increased seasonally. I recall seeing the track of a dust devil in Bonneville crater in an orbital image last year.

Tman's enhancement techniques work well.

--Bill

Posted by: slinted Mar 28 2005, 07:36 PM

QUOTE (Bill Harris @ Mar 28 2005, 05:39 AM)
I wonder if the dust devils were active earlier but we couldn't see them because we were at a lower elevation, or if the dust devil activity has increased seasonally.  I recall seeing the track of a dust devil in Bonneville crater in an orbital image last year.
*


Sure did, sometime between 30 March 2004 and 20 April 2004 one passed by Spirit when it was near to Bonneville crater creating tracks visible both from both the rover and from MOC.

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/01/03/

Posted by: slinted Mar 28 2005, 10:26 PM

Spirit Sol 438 brings us....yet another dust devil animation!


4 frames, filters are L2/L7/L2/L7, times are 0, 37 seconds later, 74 seconds later, 111 seconds later

Source images:
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-28/2P165251272ESFA900P2669L2M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-28/2P165251309ESFA900P2669L7M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-28/2P165251346ESFA900P2669L2M1.JPG
http://nasa.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/pancam/2005-03-28/2P165251383ESFA900P2669L7M1.JPG

Posted by: erwan Mar 28 2005, 10:45 PM

No shivers, while shooting a Martian Dust Devil! Thanks, Slinted...

Posted by: wyogold Mar 29 2005, 06:21 AM

sweeeeet. This is getting fun.

mars bar for the nice ani-gif slinted.

http://www.imageshack.us

may i have it to put in my collection?


scott.

Posted by: Tman Apr 13 2005, 09:14 PM

Another strong wind in Gusev? Could be this dust-like appearance in front of Grissom Hill real dust? And right above of the picture could be another dust devil.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-04-13/2N166675343EFFA9C2P0715L0M1.JPG

Posted by: wyogold Apr 14 2005, 07:39 AM

looks like a dust devil to me. If it is it's in 3d. not really though cause its soo far away.

scott

Posted by: dilo Apr 17 2005, 09:32 PM

NavCam images taken on Sol456 show darkening of a long clear stripe in the plain.
Here the links to the animated gif showing variation and also to an RGB image where R-channel contain enhenced difference between the two.
http://img43.echo.cx/my.php?image=sol456variation4kj.gif
http://img43.echo.cx/my.php?image=variation7au.jpg
The two images were taken only 5 minutes apart, so to me the only realistic explaination is the transit of a dust devil... any alternative?

Posted by: Deimos Apr 17 2005, 11:37 PM

QUOTE (dilo @ Apr 17 2005, 09:32 PM)
NavCam images taken on Sol456 show darkening of a long clear stripe in the plain.
Here the links to the animated gif showing variation and also to an RGB image where R-channel contain enhenced difference between the two.

The two images were taken only 5 minutes apart, so to me the only realistic explaination is the transit of a dust devil... any alternative?
*


Some impressive dust devil must have come by between those images. It'd sure be nice to have pix of it! cool.gif

Posted by: dilo Apr 18 2005, 05:44 AM

QUOTE (Deimos @ Apr 17 2005, 11:37 PM)
Some impressive dust devil must have come by between those images. It'd sure be nice to have pix of it!  cool.gif
*


So, you agree wink.gif ... It was big and also fast; unfortunately, looking to all images taken in the same day, none of them falls in the time frame between these two. sad.gif the two images are: 2N166841449ESFA9DWP1560L0M1 and 2N166841754ESFA9DWP1560L0M1).

Posted by: wyogold Apr 18 2005, 04:32 PM

QUOTE (dilo @ Apr 18 2005, 05:44 AM)
QUOTE (Deimos @ Apr 17 2005, 11:37 PM)
Some impressive dust devil must have come by between those images. It'd sure be nice to have pix of it!   cool.gif
*


So, you agree wink.gif ... It was big and also fast; unfortunately, looking to all images taken in the same day, none of them falls in the time frame between these two. sad.gif the two images are: 2N166841449ESFA9DWP1560L0M1 and 2N166841754ESFA9DWP1560L0M1).
*



wow bet that would of been a great one.

lol I think i'd rather not know that a dustdevil went by than realize one went by an we missed it. smile.gif ignorance is bliss.


scott

Posted by: Deimos Apr 18 2005, 05:13 PM

QUOTE (wyogold @ Apr 18 2005, 04:32 PM)
wow bet that would of been a great one.

lol I think i'd rather not know that a dustdevil went by than realize one went by an we missed it. smile.gif ignorance is bliss.

scott
*


Sadly, the rovers don't have software for on board motion detection, nor are the cameras capable of fast frame rates. But maybe they'll figure out a way to get movies of dust devils even though they can't afford to waste downlink on repeated images of nothing happening. Don't give up hope.

Posted by: Trader Apr 21 2005, 07:48 PM

Lots of new multi-shot live Devils on Navcam Sol 455, 456 and 459 on JPL today.

Trader

Posted by: Sunspot Apr 21 2005, 07:55 PM

So there is....here's a dust devil:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/461/2P167292554ESFA9GEP2888L2M1.HTML

...and here, top left:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/461/2P167292867ESFA9GEP2888L2M1.HTML

Posted by: Trader Apr 21 2005, 08:24 PM

The following 2 show well on the ground:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/456/2N166841509ESFA9DWP1560L0M1.JPG

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/456/2N166841529ESFA9DWP1560L0M1.JPG


This one is in the middle of a sequence that looks good in animation:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/459/2N167103838ESFA9F4P1560L0M1.JPG

Trader

Posted by: dot.dk Apr 21 2005, 08:47 PM

Wow Trader, that one was really close! ohmy.gif

http://img153.echo.cx/my.php?image=2n166841529esfa9dwp1560l0m10ix.gif

Posted by: mhoward Apr 21 2005, 08:56 PM

QUOTE (Trader @ Apr 21 2005, 08:24 PM)
This one is in the middle of a sequence that looks good in animation:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/459/2N167103838ESFA9F4P1560L0M1.JPG

Trader
*



OMG! Those who have been waiting for an extended dust devil sequence, your dreams have now come true.

First, one in the extreme distance (practically on the horizon), starting at 2\n\455\2N166754107ESFA9C2P1560L0M1.JPG and lasting for 21 frames (it doesn't really become visible until the 5th frame or so)

Then, one extremely close, visible starting at 2\n\456\2N166841509ESFA9DWP1560L0M1.JPG and visible for 2 frames

Then, a lovely one starting at 2\n\459\2N167103718ESFA9F4P1560L0M1.JPG in the mid-distance, a 9-frame sequence

Then, *several* caught in a 10-frame pancam sequence starting at 2\p\461\2P167292304ESFA9GEP2888L2M1.JPG

I assume someone is making movies of these, for the MMB-deprived!

Posted by: djellison Apr 21 2005, 09:01 PM

Sol 455 navcam movie
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/s_455_n_anim.gif

Sol 456 navcam movie
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/s_456_n_anim.gif

Sol 459 navcam movie
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/s_459_n_anim.gif

all approx 700kb

The last one is spectacular

Doug

Posted by: mhoward Apr 21 2005, 09:05 PM

Don't forget the pancam sequence!

Posted by: djellison Apr 21 2005, 09:13 PM

It was uploading as you posted that tongue.gif

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/s_461_p_anim.gif

800k

Doug

Posted by: fredk Apr 21 2005, 09:55 PM

By taking the difference between http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/456/2N166841509ESFA9DWP1560L0M1.JPG and the previous pre-devil image, you can clearly see the extent of and structure in the devil that passed close by.

Attachment 2N166841509ESFA9DWP1560L0M1diffa below shows the inner structure well, while pic 2N166841509ESFA9DWP1560L0M1diffb shows the full extent of the devil. It also shows the devil's shadow just in front of the base, and you can also see that the devil obscures the sky right to the top of the frame.

edit: I can't seem to control where my attachments go, but all four attachments refered to in these two posts appear in one post or the other!


 

Posted by: fredk Apr 21 2005, 10:03 PM

For the second shot of the close devil, http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/456/2N166841529ESFA9DWP1560L0M1.JPG see attachments 2N166841529ESFA9DWP1560L0M1diffa and 2N166841529ESFA9DWP1560L0M1diffb in previous post.

The devil has gotten much wider (closer?) with plenty of internal structure.

Posted by: TheChemist Apr 21 2005, 10:11 PM

Guys, thank you so much for the animations, I'm speechless ohmy.gif
Seeing Mars up close and personal with rover imagery is one thing, but those animations really take us there, to watch meteorological events evolve !

I never felt Mars so alive.
A very very BIG thank you to JPL and and all of you that make things happen.

Posted by: paxdan Apr 21 2005, 10:43 PM

Woah these movies are fantastic. Mars in motion. Amazing work in putting them together. The movies from MSL are going to be fantastic if this is what were getting from the MERs. Anyone wanna try their hand at a colourisation?

Posted by: mars_armer Apr 21 2005, 11:37 PM

I hope my sources don't get in trouble, but these are too good to keep to myself! These are enhanced animations from Sol 456 and 459. Amazing quality.

http://img82.echo.cx/my.php?image=sol456enhanced9tq.gif

http://img82.echo.cx/my.php?image=sol459enhanced1mv.gif

Disclaimer: These come from JPL, but NOT OFFICIALLY. They have been modified by me to reduce file size. I don't want to see them on Spacedaily, attributed to this forum sad.gif. Seriously. Enjoy the sneak preview, and wait for JPL's PR people to catch up.

Posted by: Bill Harris Apr 21 2005, 11:40 PM

Whew. Reminds me of The Martian Chronicles....

--Bill

Posted by: dot.dk Apr 21 2005, 11:41 PM

Arghhhh, mars_armer those just made my jaw hit the floor!!! Damn that's just CRAZY!! ohmy.gif ohmy.gif

Posted by: Sunspot Apr 21 2005, 11:44 PM

Bloody Hell blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif AMAZING !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: dot.dk Apr 21 2005, 11:49 PM

No wonder Spirit got some dust lifted by something like that blink.gif

Seriously, that is just bloody awesome! Thankyou Spirit for living so long and giving us the opportunity (no pun) to see something like this! ohmy.gif

Posted by: dot.dk Apr 22 2005, 12:51 AM

Did you push the PR guys wink.gif

http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20050421a.html

Posted by: mars_armer Apr 22 2005, 12:51 AM

OK, I needn't have bothered. The PR folks were quick this time:

http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20050421a.html

Posted by: Nirgal Apr 22 2005, 12:55 AM

unbelievable, just unbelievable !!!!!!

smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Posted by: Edward Schmitz Apr 22 2005, 02:27 AM

Oh my God! I just saw them. What can you say! I never thought we would see anything like that. I could practically hear them as they went by. Intense.

Posted by: dilo Apr 22 2005, 05:58 AM

They missed this (maybe will be posted soon):
http://img260.echo.cx/my.php?image=sol461devilsr5zs.gif
How many dust devils here, guys? ohmy.gif smile.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: jaredGalen Apr 22 2005, 06:06 AM

QUOTE (dilo @ Apr 22 2005, 06:58 AM)
They missed this (maybe will be posted soon):

How many dust devils here, guys? ohmy.gif  smile.gif  laugh.gif
*

Whoa, that's sweet as a nut dilo smile.gif
As for the NASA movies of the dust devils. NICE.
Clever way of getting the details of the devils from the images too.

jG

Posted by: dilo Apr 22 2005, 06:22 AM

QUOTE (jaredGalen @ Apr 22 2005, 06:06 AM)
QUOTE (dilo @ Apr 22 2005, 06:58 AM)
They missed this (maybe will be posted soon):

How many dust devils here, guys? ohmy.gif  smile.gif  laugh.gif
*

Whoa, that's sweet as a nut dilo smile.gif
As for the NASA movies of the dust devils. NICE.
Clever way of getting the details of the devils from the images too.

jG
*



Yes, I didn't have time to apply this enhancing method to this sequence (though I already used something like this in the analysis of a devil track: http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=762&view=findpost&p=8673).
Very interesting strategy also for JPL devils detection/transmission...! cool.gif

Posted by: dvandorn Apr 22 2005, 06:49 AM

QUOTE (mars_armer @ Apr 21 2005, 06:37 PM)
I hope my sources don't get in trouble, but these are too good to keep to myself!  These are enhanced animations from Sol 456 and 459.  Amazing quality.

http://img82.echo.cx/my.php?image=sol456enhanced9tq.gif

http://img82.echo.cx/my.php?image=sol459enhanced1mv.gif

Disclaimer: These come from JPL, but NOT OFFICIALLY.  They have been modified by me to reduce file size.  I don't want to see them on Spacedaily, attributed to this forum  sad.gif.  Seriously.  Enjoy the sneak preview, and wait for JPL's PR people to catch up.
*


I am totally blown away. This is what I mean about seeing alien vistas.

BTW -- the Sol 456 event (I think it was, the middle one of the first three Doug posted) seemed to pass rather close to Spirit. Does anyone know whether or not the solar panels were affected, either way? I mean, the devils pick up dust, but they also look like they could drop dust in their wake, too. Considering how quickly the air thins out with height, I'd think that small devils like these might be dropping dust fairly close to their paths. I'm hoping we don't get showered with so much dust at any point that power levels drop as fast and far as they rose after the first major cleaning event...

-the other Doug

Posted by: wyogold Apr 25 2005, 12:13 AM

Oh sure get a little busy at work and life for a couple days, come back and see i missed all the excitment. tongue.gif Anybody know how they do the "remove the background" thing at jpl? remove everything that is the same and leave everything that is different? Would be nice to do to the earlier dd's

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20050421a.html

scott

Posted by: Bill Harris Apr 25 2005, 12:31 AM

QUOTE
how they do the "remove the background" thing


You have two images of the same scene taken without moving the camera and digitally subtract one from the other. In theory, they ought to cancel out and give a black image. In reality, there is a difference in the JPEG artifacting and the residual thermal noise of the camera so you won't get _zero_.

If one image contains something different, like a dust devil or a tribble, the different material will left and emphasized. In these images, they then added or overlayed the "enhanced" dust devil back into the scene for aesthetics.

A standard PShop function.

--Bill

Posted by: alan Apr 26 2005, 03:58 PM

Compare these two
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/463/2N167468535ESFA9HEP1560L0M1.JPG
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/n/463/2N167468042ESFA9HEP1560L0M1.JPG
I see 4 dust devils in the second one

Posted by: aldo12xu Apr 26 2005, 10:59 PM

And a few more posted 04/26 on Exploritorium:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-04-26/2N167291575ESFA9GEP1560L0M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-04-26/2N167291687ESFA9GEP1560L0M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-04-26/2N167291830ESFA9GEP1560L0M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-04-26/2N167291930ESFA9GEP1560L0M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/navcam/2005-04-26/2N167292017ESFA9GEP1560L0M1.JPG


And there's quite a few more frames available, for all you animated GIF makers out there!!

Posted by: alan Apr 27 2005, 03:26 AM

Another one East of Clarke Hill
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2005-04-26/2F167823842EFFA9I4P1214L0M1.JPG
I wonder if we will see one in Tennessee Valley someday

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)