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Posted by: imran Sep 16 2005, 11:56 PM

Jason,

Are you really shutting down this site? I must say I'm really sad to hear this. (((
It was one of my favorite sites and I relied on it for up-to-date news on Titan and the Cassini Mission. I just want to commend you for your great work and hope you keep providing us with your valuable insights here. Keep up the good work Jason!

Posted by: volcanopele Sep 17 2005, 12:00 AM

Yes, it is being shut down. I feel that shutting the site is probably the best move I can make at this point. I know it was popular (or become quite popular). At that was part of the problem...

Posted by: David Sep 17 2005, 12:03 AM

This is very unfortunate. I wonder if Jason could leave the site up as it is, even if he can't update it; there's a lot of useful information in it. If not, would he have a problem with someone else putting up a mirror of the site on a different server just to preserve the information on it?

If Jason needs anybody to speak up on his behalf, I am sure there are a hundred people who have enjoyed and learned from his blog would would be willing to do so.

Posted by: tfisher Sep 17 2005, 12:47 AM

I'm also very sad to hear this. I have made a daily habit of visiting your site -- it has by far been the most enjoyable place to visit to learn what's going on with Cassini. The mission is losing a great source of outreach! Thanks for all the work you put into it.

Posted by: mchan Sep 17 2005, 12:49 AM

I enjoy your blog. Good info and commentary, and more enjoyable to read than the official websites. I notice the posts on the loss of data from the glitch, and the later recovery of half the radar data have been pulled. I take it this was insufficient to appease the powers that be, and a bigger gesture was suggested. Sorry it came to this. Good luck.

Posted by: 4th rock from the sun Sep 17 2005, 01:17 AM

I think we should act. We should send an email to the person in charge explaining:

- Why we liked Jason's blog so much
- That it's important to connect with the people behind the mission (the human factor)
- That it's good to be able to put some questions about images and have some simple and honest answers
- With out this blog interest for this mission would be long lost
- It's understandable the need to restrict some information, but isn't this overreacting?

And sugesting a constructive solution:

- Turn the Blog into a official Cassini mission blog, open to posts by other team members.

OK, perhaps I'm being idealistic ;-) we all know how the world works. But if this type of thing starts to get worse (keeping all the data for themselfs) this forum might come under fire in the future.

Posted by: volcanopele Sep 17 2005, 01:25 AM

I need to point out that it was I who made the decision to shut it down. I was not asked to remove it, but based on some comments I received, I felt it was best to just shut it down, rather than have to deal with potential headaches later on.

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 17 2005, 01:28 AM

I want to act too, because Jason's blog is absolutely GREAT. But before we act, we should make sure Jason wants us to act. Let me paint you one picture of a possible bad outcome: I was working with a bunch of kids inside MER mission operations, and they were writing http://planetary.org/rrgtm/studast.html about their experiences. But because they had this inside position on the mission, everything they wrote had to be vetted through a press officer at JPL before I could post it. At times, great chunks of what they wrote were censored because it was revealing discussions going on in operations that the press officer didn't want talked about in public yet. The censored stuff didn't have to do with anything bad happening on the mission, just everyday decisions like which way they were talking about pointing the rover, and which rocks they were talking about investigating. We tried to guide the kids to talk more about life inside mission operations and less about decisions and events happening on the mission, but for some of them it was very very hard. Nobody likes to write under the threat of censorship. And I could very easily see Jason's blog getting resurrected as something where he had to submit each entry for approval before it could be posted. That would suck. The ONLY way it would be valuable for him -- and everybody else -- is if the powers that be could agree with him on certain ground rules of what he could talk about, and then leave him alone to write, and trust him.

I'm very very sad to see Titan Today go. It has been such a valuable resource for me and I'm sure a lot of other people.

Emily

Posted by: tfisher Sep 17 2005, 01:46 AM

Out of curiosity, do you understand why the press officer didn't want this kind of stuff posted? From your brief description, this sounds completely crazy to me. Was the point that no scientific speculation would be allowed to be published before it reached the point of a refereed journal article (or at least JPL press release)? I can't imagine the scientists saying something like "well, we can't allow the public to see the actual process of science, just the final results..."

Posted by: Decepticon Sep 17 2005, 01:50 AM

Oddly I knew this was coming.

It was on my Fav's list also.

Posted by: Jeff7 Sep 17 2005, 02:07 AM

I will admit that I'm not a regular visitor of Titan Today, though I have browsed it occasionally...and I'm rather astonished that you've been, well, warned(?) about postings on the site. Sorry if this counts as prying, of if you can't give details, ok, but, what the heck happened? Did you say something outright slanderous about top level officials' families (yes, that was sarcastic), or what the heck was it? Scientific analysis of public data? Is that suddenly not allowed?

Will the site content at least be preserved elsewhere?

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 17 2005, 02:07 AM

I think that there were a couple of things going on. But they all had their root in the fact that the press officers were working very hard to protect the scientists and the mission. Two main problems with uncontrolled "outlets" from a mission: History has shown that the general news media are super-fast to jump on anything that sounds like a "problem" or a "failure" or a "controversy," and the most general news media usually only report on a story ONCE. So press officers -- and scientists who are media savvy -- get real nervous about anything that sounds like news coming out of any other than an official outlet, becuase they don't have the opportunity to get the story straight for the news media, and they don't want to lose the chance for the scientists to have their 15 minutes of fame, and they don't want the story that's out there to be wrong. If someone else out there, like a blogger, talks about an interesting rock, then it won't be "news" when the science team holds a press conference about that rock days later. Even worse would be if what the blogger said about the rock was wrong, or if the blogger reported on plans to examine a rock that then failed because of a fault with the rover, you would have either misinformation or the sign of a possible failure out there, and likely the media outlet wouldn't bother to correct it. So the press officers do have very good reasons for their conservatism, they're not crazy -- but sometimes they do throw the baby out with the bathwater.

--Emily

Posted by: exoplanet Sep 17 2005, 02:43 AM

I just want to say that if Jason was "warned" by higher powers - that this is utterly ridiculous!!! Titan Times has been a blog that I daily visit and it will be missed.

To be quite honest . . . the activities of egotistical scientific fools (the ones that have probably warned Jason) are one of the main reasons why many high school and college entrants are turned off by pursuing a hard science degree. Data discovered by the PhD's is guarded so closely - nothing tantalizing or exciting is ever revealed prior to a scientific paper being published. To be quite honest, no layperson ever reads or subscibes to a scientific journal and if you ask me - to pay $30.00 to read an individual scientific article that interests me on the internet is ridiculous. When press releases are eventually published - I mainly just yawn as they are normally geared toward someone who has little knowlege of science beyond high school.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant . . . I just hate to see Jason's site go.

Posted by: David Sep 17 2005, 03:15 AM

I'm unwilling to make pejorative characterizations of the officials who talked to Jason, only because I do not know what actually passed between them or why he chose his response. (My impression, right or wrong, is that what was at issue was Jason's expressions of exasperation at the failures leading to the loss of half of Cassini's signal at the recent flyby of Titan. These were not offensive, but may have created the impression that Jason was not blogging as a "team player". This is in line with a general trend, in business as well as government, to refuse to allow individuals a right to interests or expressions in the public sphere outside of what is permitted by their employer; for instance, some department has refused to hire individuals that blog about anything, on the grounds that someday they might ultimately blog something that reflects poorly on their employer. But I digress.)
However, I think that exoplanet's statements, shorn of certain expressions, have some merit. Much ink is spilt on how science is represented to a mythical body of persons misleadingly called "schoolchildren". Presumably, a failure to interest children in science at an early age leads to adults who are ill-informed about and dismissive of science. A lot of tacit social critiques are wrapped up in these complaints.
I disagree with them, except insofar as "schoolchildren" may stand as a cypher for some more relevant demographic. I think that a disinterest in scientific methods and results comes, not from the way that science is represented to children, but from the way it is represented to adults. There is less and less available to those, like me, who stand outside the scientific or engineering communities, but who can follow any clear and cogent presentation on many topics that are not wholly technical. This Unmanned Spaceflight forum fills that gap very well; Jason's blog has filled a similar gap, though in a narrower field. It has, at present, no replacement, nor would I expect anyone at JPL to be very eager to replace it. That is a great misfortune, not just for us but for the space and planetary science communities in general; it cuts back on the flow of information at just the time when a steady flow is vital to keeping a base of support for space science. I for one talk about things that I've read on Jason's blog with people I know, and I'm sure other readers do the same; when eyes light up to hear about the latest discovery, that's one more person willing to support more such research. Now, I will have much less to discuss.

Posted by: Rob Pinnegar Sep 17 2005, 04:13 AM

Research scientists make their living by publishing papers in peer reviewed journals. The name of this game is Publish First. If you are going to spend two or three months sweating over a manuscript, you don't want it to come out three months after someone else's. The silver medal isn't always completely useless, but most times it is.

When you're in that position, knowing when to keep your mouth shut is a substantial virtue. Like any other subset of humananity, scientists can be good people, or they can be bad, unscrupulous people. The bad ones just might steal your ideas if you are imprudent enough to share them indiscriminately. Such people are, fortunately, in the minority (in fact, in my limited experience they're very rare) but just like bad people in any walk of life, they spoil all the fun for the rest of us.

Having said that, I can understand where opinions like the one quoted above come from. They reflect very common feelings most people have about How Things Ought To Be. Unfortunately, human nature, in its recurring role as the ultimate adversary, has a nasty habit of crushing such noble sentiments under its iron heel. I wish things were otherwise, but it ain't so.

Posted by: Jeff7 Sep 17 2005, 04:50 AM

I can understand what Emily means - the press is concerned with selling newspapers. Like the recent rebooting problem encountered on one rover, or the run-in with Purgatory Dune (Purgatory Ripple perhaps?) - they'll report "Mars Rover stuck, NASA top engineers unable to climb over 10" dune! Space program in question." They won't report that it was ultra-fine dust, lightly compacted, or the fact that the rovers are WAY past their expected lifetime, or how they have returned an incredible amount of data. There'll likely be some little blurb in the papers when one rover does finally die, but that'll be it. They'll say, "A rover on Mars died after failing to find evidence of life. Mars is the 4th planet from the sun, and is red because of iron oxide on the crust. Iron oxide is the principle component of rust." Or better yet, "The rovers failed to survive a full martian year" - the failure will be emphasized, and the rest will be information for the portion of the population who doesn't know that there even were rovers on Mars in the first place.
Phew, that was cynical, wasn't it.

And no, I do not believe the rovers will fail before one year. I'm hoping NASA will be deciding on yet another mission extension.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 17 2005, 07:47 AM

Volcanopele: I am saddened by the demise of your blog, but I do respect your decision. I know it must have been a difficult one to make. You have faithfully kept the site up-to-date and relevant from the start, and we all have appreciated that. But continuing it could adversely affect your career. I would like to urge anyone considering "action" to reconsider, and discuss it with volcanopele first.

I also appreciate hearing the range of opinions. I found comments by elakdawalla and Rob Pinnegar very helpfull toward appreciating the "bigger picture," but I do feel everyone's frustration.

Thoughtful sugestions have been made regarding the conversion of the blog to an "official" blog. That would be a most excellent compromise, but it would only be viable if NASA and volcanopele's management could be convinced it would be one of those "win-win" situations we all hear about. I think it could be, but...

...as Decepticon has pointed out, we should have seen this coming.

Posted by: dilo Sep 17 2005, 08:05 AM

...
(my comments already expressed by other members!)

Posted by: djellison Sep 17 2005, 10:07 AM

I think it's very very sad that what ever happened, happened - and we've all lost out because of it. No one was trying to steal any scientific thunder - we just wanted to share the adventure. In the MER world, our efforts are praised and enjoyed by team members. It seems things change once you go beyond the asteroid belt

I'm not sure if it will do any good, or if it's worthwhile - but I'm going to email a few people to say that Jasons efforts were appreciated, enjoyed, of great benefit to the project as a whole, and the demise of his blog is a very sad and unfortunate thing. No one is trying to steal any scientific thunder - we're just trying to share in this amazing adventure, a billion miles from home.

So - avoiding a rant, just expressing sadness, I'm emailing

Project Manager (Bob Mitchell) - Robert.T.Mitchell@jpl.nasa.gov
Project Scientist (Dennis Matson) - Dennis.L.Matson@jpl.nasa.gov
Deputy Scientist (Linda Spilker) - Linda.J.Spilker@jpl.nasa.gov
and
Public Information Officer (Carolina Martinez) - Carolina.Carnalla-Martinez@jpl.nasa.gov

Those email addresses might be wrong, alternatives are...
rmitchel@mail.jpl.nasa.gov , dlmatson@mail.jpl.nasa.gov , lspilker@mail.jpl.nasa.gov , carnalla@mail.jpl.nasa.gov

If nothing else, Jason deserves praise for his brilliant work that did nothing but give credit to what is an amazing mission - and if anything can be done to find out what caused what I consider to be a tragic mistake for the mission's outreach efforts -all the better.

You are a credit to the whole mission Jason, and for that, you deserve praise and congratulations.


Doug

Posted by: abalone Sep 17 2005, 10:24 AM

Would be a big loss hope you can keep it going

Posted by: Sunspot Sep 17 2005, 10:57 AM

........hmm why would they be so unhappy with what Jason was doing? Alot of people ARE interested in the Cassini mission - I remember reading a thread written by someone who attended the planetary science meeting in Cambridge recently saying that Carolyn Porco was a bit disappointed with media interest in the mission.

Did they not want anyone to know about the loss of data? I did notice that JPL/NASA didnt give out any information on that until today.

Lets hope none of them read that ring spoke thread on here

And good luck with contacting public outreach too, i've sent a couple of questions over the course of the mission, but never had any response.

Posted by: OWW Sep 17 2005, 11:24 AM

The non-targeted Tethys flyby images in May were also lost. Nothing on that on the official sites as well.
Oh well, at least it's nothing new. The Soviet Union also didn't release information on a mission until it was a success.

Posted by: 4th rock from the sun Sep 17 2005, 02:30 PM

"The Soviet Union also didn't release information on a mission until it was a success."

Yes, and that didn't give them a great reputation (or did them any good), although they did had some sucessfull missions.

The press does like to publish negative stories. This is considered news... just because the official press releases give you a 100% perfect view of the missions.
Jounalists know better and dig for the "dirty" information...
And they dig deeper if this info is "hidden";-)

If the official press releases or mission updates mentioned setbacks frequently this would stop being news, just because they ARE frequent. Everyday stuff in not news ;-)

So the best is really to follow a open policy and share information, good or bad.

The results are there for everyone to see: probes keep being sent to Mars every 2 years... but not to other places (at least as often).

It's simple ;-) : no press > no public > no bucks > no Buck Rogers

:-)

Posted by: Rob Pinnegar Sep 17 2005, 02:42 PM

Just to clarify here Doug: That post I put up yesterday, the one about scientists having to be careful with what they share with people, was a response to specific comments in another post (can't remember whose at the moment). While writing it up, I sort of forgot what thread I was in.

I didn't mean to imply that Jason was putting anything in his blog that someone would want to steal. Looking at my post in the context of the rest of the thread, it's easy to see in hindsight how people could get that impression, but it really wasn't my intention. The reasons for ending the blog are, I think, adequately covered in Emily's post.

This doesn't mean I'm taking back what I said in my earlier post -- it's just that it wasn't meant to be a pot shot at Titan Today.

Posted by: scalbers Sep 17 2005, 05:37 PM

I posted a couple of comments (with some sharp initial reactions) right on Jason's blog. I'm sure we'll be hearing much more from him in the future, even if it is more in an "official" context. Meanwhile, I suppose we can continue to be proactive within this forum, keeping the sharp eye out for new raw images, press releases, comments from those attending public events and conferences, etc. In terms of blogs, we do have the excellent one at the Planetary Society by Emily Lakdawalla. Hopefully the enthusiasm about Cassini could manifest itself in some sort of more official blog, as that is a great format for concisely learning about what is new.

Posted by: scalbers Sep 17 2005, 05:43 PM

I agree with the comment about Mars missions. We had heard every detail about the memory overflow related problems early in Spirit's mission and how that nearly crippled the spacecraft. In the long run, this only heightened interest in the drama of the mission and in the heroics of overcoming the obstacles to produce a mission going spectacularly above expectations.

Posted by: scalbers Sep 17 2005, 05:57 PM

My impression is that this type of discovery by "amateurs" is fine in the sense that the raw images page at JPL was encouraged by NASA top level management, even to the chagrin of some on the science teams. I recall hearing words like "sharing the excitement of discovery" as part of that rationale.

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 18 2005, 08:08 AM

I do want to remind everyone that institutions are institutions, regardless of whether they are "scientific" or "engineering" or even "commercial" institutions. And the corporate mentality is quite capable of reacting harshly to anything that they even *suspect* will put them in a bad light.

There was a case of a fellow who used to post regularly to the Usenet group sci.space.shuttle, who worked for the guys who refurbish the Shuttles and got them ready for re-launch. He also had a website, in which he talked about the daily challenges, joys and frustrations of his work.

He was fired by the company (I think it was Alliance Space Systems, or something like that -- I know I ought to remember the name of the company, but it's late and I'm tired). One of the reasons was that the information he shared on his website and in his Usenet postings could "violate safety and corporate security clauses" in his contract. That was a lot of horse manure, of course -- but it didn't stop them from firing him.

So, don't ever think that *any* institution is incapable of firing people for sharing information about their jobs. It's more the rule than the exception.

-the other Doug

Posted by: djellison Sep 18 2005, 09:37 AM

THe story of Kim Keller - I was a s.s.s. regular at the time and utterly gutted about that.

I've not been into SSS for years - is Maxson still at it?

Doug

Posted by: craigmcg Sep 18 2005, 10:42 AM

In trying to figure out why Titan Today was popular, the first thing that comes to mind was that it was unique. In spite of the excellent cassini site, and planetary.org, and of course, umsf, I always found myself going to Titan Today.

I'm not inside the business of space exploration. I'm interested in science and technology at a deeper level than I can get in the mass media. I sense there are many more people like me on this forum.

The blog format is a great way to present news. It's easy to come back to the site and find what has changed. Typically I could read "what's new" in Titan Today in 15 minutes on my lunch break.

Does anyone out there have an estimate of how many people are in the community of people who would read Titan Today?

Sorry this is a bit rambly. The question I'm asking really is: could type of communications/pr could be justified in a more formal way?

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 19 2005, 05:27 AM

He keeps trying, but no one listens, so the discussion tends to die off. There was so much noise to the signal, though, even at s.s.h., that I finally got disgusted and stopped hanging out in those groups a while back, myself. This forum is so much better, anyway -- the whack jobs seem never to get started, here.

Again, congratulations on maintaining such a high-quality and entertaining forum, Doug! I'm ever grateful that it exists.

-the other Doug

Posted by: odave Sep 19 2005, 03:03 PM

I think this is the best kind action we can take - make sure those higer up the food chain understand how talented he is both at his job *and* public outreach. I wouldn't want him to be tagged as a "troublemaker" and his career (or his attitude) damaged by this incident, whatever it was. Let's cover our brother's back.

I would make sure to keep the content of the message positive and respectful, as ranting from the Internet can be so easily dismissed.

I am considering a veiled threat, however - something along the lines of "You guys get a lot of money from the government, right? I pay taxes. I also vote."

Just kidding......kind of...

Posted by: tedstryk Sep 19 2005, 04:27 PM

I think that this might have the opposite effect - if we send a bunch of complaints with regard to this, he might be seen as a problem, or even as being behind it. Much as I would like to help, I don't want to end up doing him more harm than good.

Posted by: helvick Sep 19 2005, 04:47 PM

Yep - this is arguably the only sensible way to do this. I understand both sides of the argument and the difficulty here is that you are dealing with both standard organisational politics and those peculiar to scientific mega projects.

The effect of Jason's blog was to provide an outstanding public outreach resource for folks like use, those who want much more detail and want to share (albeit at some remove) in the spirit of exploration and discovery. We are arguably a very important group of stakeholders in the broad sense as taxpayers from all countries who have funded this project. In the long term it is very much in the interest of those whose careers depend on publically funded space exploration to acknowledge that.

However it is hard to balance that with the more immediate requirements of a scientific project on the scale of Cassini. Multiple large groups of scientific teams who have spent a large portion of their career lifetimes working on the various parts of the mission. The management of the mission must protect both the integrity of the mission as a project and protect the right of the participants to ensure that the information being disseminated about the project and their experiments is correct.

I think it's important to acknowledge that there are good reasons for people to be cautious about excessively open information policies. Now just having good reasons to be cautious doesn't mean that it's a good idea to shut off all access but that is often the easiest thing to do. The best way to get the people in control to make the harder decisions that are both beneficial to the project's priorities and to interest groups like ours is to communicate calmly and clearly with them, ideally by having someone with a bit of clout doing the actual communicating.

Finally we all need to pay attention to the fact that this was a decision that Jason made himself and thus far I've seen no indication that he was pressured directly into making it. Clearly he didn't want to do it but we are lacking some very important information at the moment - specifically the exact reasons why he felt he needed to shut down.

Posted by: odave Sep 19 2005, 05:15 PM

True - I agree that a flood of e-mails from complete strangers would be annoying and potentially damaging. Note that I haven't sent anything to anyone yet, pending the outcome of this discussion.



Amen. If there's interest, maybe we could come up with a joint statement of support from UMSF members to be sent by Doug or someone else with contacts...

Posted by: volcanopele Sep 19 2005, 05:28 PM

Just a few comments:

1) First, I want to thank all of you for your voices of support for the last few days. Your comments really mean a lot to me.
2) While sending emails or letters to various Cassini officials may appear to be helpful, I think in this situation, it may be best to keep a lower profile within the Cassini community for a little while, so emails at this time may not be wise. Now when I send applications off to grad school..., that may be a different matter.
3) I will try to remain a regular here. This is a great forum thanks to its great signal/noise ratio and many of the discussions here are fascinating.

Posted by: dilo Sep 19 2005, 07:07 PM

Jason, I fully agree on the "low profile" strategy: I'm convinced is best way for us to help you now, especially if you decided to close the blog in full automy, in order to prevent potential future problems...
Thanks for your work!

Posted by: DDAVIS Sep 19 2005, 08:18 PM

It's a damn shame that the US space business is tightening up on the availability of information here and there, in a creeping soviet style fashion. In a perhaps vaguely related vein, I wish to convey a thoughtful protest against the embargoing of data.
This exerpt from Hartmanns book 'A Travellers giude to Mars' is a mini editorial:

'While I felt good about the the increased public interest in Mars, I could not help but have some serious misgivings about the emerging of orchestrated press events for scientific discoveries. The e-mail rumor mongering and suspense that preceded the' (MGS water related landform) 'news conference was fostered by outdated, self serving rules followed by the leading international science journals, Nature (UK) and Science (US). Both journals insist that once your paper is accepted for publication, you should avoid any public discussion of it until it appears. This practice is called Embargoing. It might have made sense in the nineteenth century, when discoveries traveled by snail mail in wax sealed envelopes carried by the horse mounted royal post. In the twenty-first century, embargoing of scientific news is a silly pretense because, prior to the press conference, virtually every published paper has been presented at some level in a scientific meeting, discussed with colleagues in lunchrooms and bars, debated with colleagues 10,000 miles away vis e-mail, or circulated among friends as a preprint. Yet the journals pretend that they live in an era where scientists get their news only by unwrapping a long awaited journal that's finally arrived by stagecoach. It's a delusion, this idea that journals are breaking fresh news. Journals are not newspapers, but precious repositories for final results.'

Posted by: djellison Sep 19 2005, 08:35 PM

One of my very favorite Mars books that one..infact, I quote from it when doing talks about MER - the press chap who when he saw the first image from Viking said something like "well that looks like the place where they made me leave my car"

Bloody good author is Bill, and slowly, I'm 'learning' Mars with that book in particular.


I wasnt trying to start some sort of mass hate-mailing here - literally just people expressing thanks for Jason doing what he has done, and sadness that it is ended. No finger pointing, no anger, just thanks.

Steve Squyres
"This is a daily process of discovery and exploration, and it just had such potential like you said as a soap opera and we realised that there was enormous potential for just putting the images out in real time, and you know, if you're in the UK and I'm in Ithaca NY, as long as the scripts are running well and are updating quickly, and often they dont but we try our best, if you're awake and I'm asleep, you get to see pictures from Mars before I do and I think that's great and I hope that other projects of the future will do the same thing."


Doug

Posted by: helvick Sep 19 2005, 09:30 PM

Any chance you can post that up on the main page as a sort of banner for those who come and visit, it's a fantastic quote.

Posted by: djellison Sep 19 2005, 09:34 PM

Pah - let the buggers listen to the Q'n'A and hear it when they get about 42 minutes in

seriously...
Quite agree - it's my favorite part of the Q'n'A and typifies why I respect the guy and appreciate his efforts so much - and it contrasts to other missions and agencies very well indeed. If I can find somewhere sensible for it to live, I'll put it there.

Doug