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Posted by: RNeuhaus Oct 28 2005, 05:22 PM

This topic is for posts concerning to any preparation of Phoenix Lander Mission to Mars programmed to launch on August 2007 (less than 2 years... but the time will fly)

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/future/phoenix.html

Overview

The Phoenix mission is the first chosen for NASA's Scout program, an initiative for smaller, lower-cost, competed spacecraft. Named for the resilient mythological bird, Phoenix uses a lander that was intended for use by 2001's Mars Surveyor lander prior to its cancellation. It also carries a complex suite of instruments that are improved variations of those that flew on the lost Mars Polar Lander.

Canada Will Land Instrument On Mars To Study Weather

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-future-05t.html

Rodolfo

Posted by: climber Apr 5 2006, 09:50 PM

An article on Space.com where we can also "see" the real lander :
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/060404_phoenix_tech.html

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Apr 11 2006, 02:04 AM

Principal Investigator Peter Smith has just answered perhaps the two biggest questions about Phoenix:

(1) The precision-landing test, using guided entry, has indeed been cancelled -- so MSL will be the first Mars lander to try that.

(2) Phoenix will, with luck, be able to detect methane in Mars' air at 10 parts per billion -- although "we will not know if this is doable until the first full TEGA test in May."

Posted by: Phil Stooke Apr 11 2006, 03:37 AM

Where is this from, Bruce?

Phil

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Apr 11 2006, 05:16 AM

Smith E-mailed me personally, in response to my query last night. (We've talked before.)

Posted by: Spacely Apr 19 2006, 11:40 PM

Didn't see this elsewhere on the boards. The AO for Mars Scout '11/'12 went out on Monday.

http://www.marstoday.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=20314

Anyone have any info on the types of proposals we can expect?

Posted by: RNeuhaus Apr 20 2006, 02:01 AM

At the 37th Lunar and Planetary Science Conference (LPSC), held March 13-17 in Houston, Texas, Phoenix team members presented both excitement and nervousness about the Phoenix Mars endeavor—specifically, addressing the dangers lurking at the spacecraft’s landing zone.

These worries are :

1) NASA wants to land down the Phoenix in a zone where does not have "egregious landforms" in terms of safety. Needs more pictures from MRO, MGS, MEX and Odyssey.

2) Additional uncertainties include air density, winds, lander attitude control…and just how well Phoenix will deal with slopes and rocks, Guinn explained. Fortunately, the northern plains of Mars are very flat and low.

3) The other trouble is that the Phoenix belly is so low, up to 35 cms of clearence above the surface. Depending the force of landing, the legs can lower even further. Hence, need a clean surface, no rocks bigger than 25 cms. So "If there is a pointy rock that you come down on, the belly pan [of the lander] could hit that rock…and that would be of serious concern," Golombek said. "So there is concern here. We will be looking at the MRO data with great interest," he concluded.

Up to now, not yet has determined the landing place for Phonix

Rodolfo

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/060404_phoenix_tech.html

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Apr 20 2006, 06:22 AM

Several interesting new tidbits I've recently run across about this mission (in addition to the two I mentioned earlier):

(1) All its possible landing areas seem to have a very thin layer of dry soil over the underlying permafrost -- only 4-6 cm thick in most places. This presents problems for one desired science goal: using the MECA and TEGA to analyze chemical gradients with depth in the soil layer -- they may have to settle for only one or at most two scoops of soil before they get to the ice, instead of the hoped-for three.

For this reason, the planners are now placing greater emphasis on analyzing the permafrost itself on this mission -- but that, in turn, presents problems. Permafrost is very hard stuff, and Deborah Bass' blog ( http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/features/weblogs/deborah_bass.php , Nov. 13 and 21 entries) reports the problems they've been having designing the scoop to properly handle it. The robotic arm by itself, even with the digging tines fastened to its scoop, isn't nearly strong enough to rake up an adequate pile of the stuff without taking days -- during which any shreds of ice it manages to detach will probably sublimate away before enough can be accumulated for the scoop to pick them up. Thus the decision to add the Icy Soil Acquisition Device -- a rotating "ice shredder wheel"-- to the rear of the scoop to both quickly detach shreds and kick them straight into the scoop.

(2) The best description of the reasons for the choice of "Region B" as the overall landing region is at http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/1328.pdf -- which can be summarized by saying that it's scientifically as good as the other two regions, and somewhat safer.

(3) Bass' Aug. 27 entry talks about the measures being taken to keep chemical contamination of the site by the thrusters' hydrazine within acceptable bounds. (Note that the Vikings reported no problems from this.)

(4) The Dec. 8 entry talks about the fact that the lander will be swaying rapidly during its parachute descent, which may somewhat blur the descent images (as it might have on Polar Lander).

(5) Each MECA wet chemistry cell will finish its analysis by dropping two chemical pellets into the water: an acid one to reveal any carbonates, and another to reveal both sulfates and soil oxidants.

(6) Besides the meteorology measurements made by the lidar and temperature and pressure sensors on the MET experiment, and the periodic air analyses done by the mass spectrometer, the "TECP" probe on the arm scoop to measure soil electrical and thermal conductivity (which has a heated prong surrounded by temperature sensors) can double as a hot-wire anemometer, and an air humidity sensor is also built into the TECP. There are also strings dangling from the thin mast carrying the MET temperature sensors to serve as photographable wind sensors, like the windsocks on Pathfinder's mast.

ARES and MARVEL will be resubmitted, with only minor changes; but I haven't yet been able to find out whether SCIM will be. Bruce Campbell is also resubmitting his Mars Scout SAR orbiter, now christened "Eagle" ( http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/2188.pdf ). Ames Research Center is trying to one-up Langley and its ARES with "MATADOR", another Mars airplane that might actually be able to survive its final landing ( http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_aerospacedaily_story.jsp?id=news/MATADOR11174.xml ) Bruce Banerdt is submitting some kind of single lander focusing on geophysics, and somebody else is submitting some kind of Phoenix-like lander with a mini-rover. Finally, besides ARES, the Langley center was planning to submit an atmospheric orbiter ("MARS": http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=18893 ) -- but the new plans for a big 2013 atmospheric orbiter may upset the chances for both that one and MARVEL.

Update: SCIM will be resubmitted in 2011 ( http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/060126_sample_capsules.html ). I regard it as a major contender, especially given the new delay in the flat-out surface Mars sample return mission.

A Bit more on MATADOR at http://research.hq.nasa.gov/code_s/nra/current/NRA-03-OSS-01-MT/winners.html :

"Lawrence Lemke / Ames Research Center
MATADOR: a Mars Advanced Technology Airplane for Deployment, Operations, and Recovery"

"Current Mars airplane missions typically begin by deploying the aiplane in a nose-down attitude, involve a dive below the cruise altitude in order to establish flight speed and end with an uncontrolled crash into the planet's surface. This proposal is to demonstrate technology which would improve this scenario by allowing controlled deployment of the folded wings at the beginning of flight without a negative altitude excursion and which would allow controlled impact of the aircraft into the planet's surface at the end of flight in a nose-high, low-energy approach which will leave the airframe in a condition to relay on-board data to an overhead spacecraft.

"The technology to accomplish this consists of a delta planform fuselage to contribute intrinsic pitch stability to the folded airplane at high angles of attack and a cold gas reaction control system under control of the autopilot to provide direct thrust vectors, independent of flight speed. This demonstration will be accomplished through a work plan to design, construct, and flight test an unpiloted aerial vehicle, named MATADOR.

"MATADOR is a blended wing-body rocket powered aircraft of 4m wingspan designed for steady-state flight on Mars at 4km above datum at 0.6 Mach and 0.6 Cl. The 3-year work plan calls for 2 high altitude flight test demonstrations of MATADOR to be conducted by carrying the airframe to approximately 30km altitude with a helium balloon and releasing it to begin flight. In addition, the plan calls for a series of ground impact tests in which the incidence angle and velocity and surface slope and roughness parameters will be experimentally investigated to determine their effect on the ability of the airplane to survive and function for the purposes of data communication."

Posted by: Bob Shaw Apr 20 2006, 08:05 AM

A winged Mars lander which might survive after touchdown? What a good idea! I wonder if anyone has thought of it before?

Bob Shaw

Posted by: climber Apr 20 2006, 09:03 AM

Here are 2 Phoenix model pictures I took at the Planetary's Society event called "Wild about Mars" on Spirit day landing. You can also see a Lego model of MER landers in the back ground. Note how big if Phoenix as compared to both MER and a person in front of it :

Climber

Posted by: djellison Apr 20 2006, 10:09 AM

Cool pictures - I guess those are spare Cosmos 1 'sails' behind?

Doug

Posted by: climber Apr 20 2006, 11:09 AM

[quote name='djellison' date='Apr 20 2006, 12:09 PM' post='51277']
Cool pictures - I guess those are spare Cosmos 1 'sails' behind?

Doug

You're right. As was amazed by both Phoenix (high & big arm) as well as Comos 1 'sails' size.
By the way, here is Pathfinder sitting nearby :

Posted by: Bob Shaw Apr 20 2006, 11:32 AM

'Cool! Check out the *bling* on that, Victoria! Do you want a pair in Burberry?'

Bob Shaw

Posted by: lyford Apr 20 2006, 04:21 PM

Pardon my newbie question, but are there any issues with "temperature contamination" from the lander? If we are trying to study pristine permafrost conditions, what affect would hot thrusters and the attendant gasses have? Would there be any delicate CO2 frost or ice melt that might change the local conditions? Or will the low temperature and pressure of Mars' atmosphere sufficiently dissipate any excess heat quickly enough?

Posted by: RNeuhaus Apr 20 2006, 06:58 PM

Thanks Bruce for a very informative post.

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Apr 20 2006, 08:19 PM

I haven't heard anything about there being any problem with the temperature. Presumably the arm has a long enough reach to get beyond any places on the surface that might have been temperature-modified. (Nor did I ever hear anything about any such problem with Mars Polar Lander, which had similar engines and a similar arm.)

Posted by: Bob Shaw Apr 20 2006, 08:29 PM

Bruce:

It's OK, for safety reasons they'll cut the engines at 30m above the surface.

Bob Shaw

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Apr 21 2006, 12:41 AM

Ho ho, yuk yuk, har de har har. While going through the report of MEPAG's "Mars Human Precursor Group" on the necessary safety measurements for Mars' atmosphere (more on that soon, down in the "MTO Cancelled" thread), I found the following little note: "Phoenix landing thruster system may erode 0.3 cubic meters of soil, which is a cloud containing a few hundred kg of loose soil and dust." Gaaack. However, they never made a fuss about this for Mars Polar Lander -- which had the same system using touchdown sensors on the foot pads themselves to shut down the engines.

Posted by: djellison Apr 21 2006, 12:48 AM

So on one hand we've got reports of a terrain so hard they'll struggle to dig through it, and on the other reports that the engines will blow away 1/3rd of a ton of the stuff.

Doug

Posted by: lyford Apr 21 2006, 01:02 AM

Upside down creme brulee?

um, i mean the hard permafrost UNDER the dust....

Posted by: centsworth_II Apr 21 2006, 02:09 AM

If the "blow zone" is four meters in diameter, the average amount of surface dust removed by the landing blast would be a couple centimeters. This is still a surprising amount to me.

Posted by: BruceMoomaw Apr 21 2006, 02:26 AM

What they're apprehensive about blowing away is the 5 cm or so of loose soil on top of that hard permafrost -- and what they're apprehensive about contaminating with hydrazine is both the soil and the surface of that permafrost. (As I said last night, however, Deborah Bass' August 27 blog entry suggests that they're not all that worried about it.)

Posted by: helvick Apr 21 2006, 08:46 AM

It bears repeating that http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/features/weblogs/deborah_bass.php contain's lots of excellent material and http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/features/weblogs/suzanne_young.phphas a load of relevant info on the risks (or not) of Hydrazine contamination

Posted by: climber Apr 21 2006, 10:43 AM

Hydrazine contamination

Is this still a problem when you know exactely the contaminant and the quantity of it ? I mean, not talking about soil/ice disturbance, can we "remove" Hydrazine from the analysis ?

Posted by: chris Apr 21 2006, 12:43 PM

In order to be able to remove it from the analysis, you would need to be able to know what
it had reacted with. Since part of the reason for going is to find out what the geochemistry is,
I guess the answer is at very best "perhaps", and more likely "no".

From reading Suzanne Youg's blog, it seems that the engines are very efficient, so hydrazine
isn't a big worry. The ammonia produced by the breakdon of hydrazine may still be an issue though,
as approaching 80% of the exhaust gas is ammonia.

Chris

Posted by: climber Apr 21 2006, 12:52 PM

Since part of the reason for going is to find out what the geochemistry is,

Oh Yes! Exploration is. I kind of forget the reason we're doing this, didn't I ?

Posted by: Joffan May 2 2006, 09:48 PM

Given our struggles to get the power required for Spirit from solar panels, with the sun at about 50degrees up (midwinter midsol at Gusev), how well are the Phoenix panels going to manage? Is there any plan to tilt the panels and catch a few more rays? Or does Phoenix have another power source that I don't know about? (in which case why are the panels there??)

Posted by: djellison May 2 2006, 10:10 PM

Phoenix is just arrays, they will be almost parallel to the ground - but it will get 24 hr sunlight early in the mission (check the website for an animation that shows this) so a tilt would be a bad idea as you would get from one side only what you would drop on the other.

Phoenix is going to be a short lived mission, the very long, very cold polar night will kill it.

Doug

Posted by: helvick May 2 2006, 10:14 PM

Phoenix has a very well defined mission and there will be more than enough energy available for it during it's 3 month primary mission as it will occur during the late NH spring-summer season when insolation at high latitudes is high (higher than at the equator in fact because the sun will never set at all at the height of summer) and it may have enough energy to continue to do some science for up to 190 sols. Extending Phoenix's mission may be only of marginal value though since it has very specific objectives and extending the mission will only really make sense if scheduling difficulties mean that it can't complete it's planned tasks in the first three months or if some of the secondary instruments yield something really dramatic.

I've attached my estimate of the power that would be available from a 1M^2 panel, 26% efficiency cells with an 80% power subsystem efficiency for the Phoenix landing site (70degN) starting on the exected landing date of 10 May 2008. I've put in fairly aggressive dust loss parameters (0.2% per sol) and modelled Tau using the 1997 dust storm model from Viking (which was a medium scale global storm) which is fairly conservative. As you can see there's lots of power for 120 Sols or so but then it rapidly tails off as winter arrives and since it is above the martian arctic circle it will eventually get to a stage (around Sol 320) when it is dark 24.65979 hours of the Sol.

I've no idea what the actual solar panel area for Phoenix is or what the cell types are but 1m^2 seemed reasonable from the pictures I've seen online and 26% efficiency should be about right if they are using recent Triple Junction GaInP cells.

Posted by: Joffan May 2 2006, 11:49 PM

Thanks helvick, very attractive graphs.

I'm surprised at the idea that you can get more power near the poles than the equator even in summer, since you'll need many hours of 5º sun to equate to an hour of 90º sun. However the trig is too hard for me to do without some serious thought and lots of envelopes with plenty of space on the back, so I'll take your word for it (for now)!

And I guess the other thing is the limited mission, as you say. Once the analysis reagents are used, the most interesting part of the mission is done and the quiet slipping away of the Phoenix will be easier to bear.

Posted by: climber May 3 2006, 08:16 PM

This is an article from Space.com :
"Backhoe Ho-Down on Mars
The next robotic arm headed for the red planet is ready for final testing and installation onto NASA’s Mars Phoenix lander, due for liftoff in August of next year.The backhoe-like arm was built by Alliance Spacesystems, Inc. (ASI) of Pasadena, California. Once on Mars in May 2008, the arm is assigned a key duty of digging a two-foot deep trench in Mars’ north-polar region.
At the business end of the arm is a scoop about the size of a garden trowel that will do the digging down to an ice layer that is potentially rock-hard. The arm will deliver soil samples to a suite of devices on the lander’s deck for detailed analysis. A camera mounted on the arm will view layers in the freshly-dug trench wall.
The agile arm has a 7.5-foot reach (2.3 meters), with the aluminum and titanium device weighing less than 22 pounds (9.7 kilograms). The robotic arm – inherited from a shelved 2001 Mars mission to the equator – could not dig into hard icy soils at cold temperatures and had to be completely redesigned. Mars Phoenix is a three-month mission expected to yield new clues to the history of water on Mars and whether the environment was ever conducive to life."

Posted by: mars loon May 21 2006, 03:00 AM

I have actually seen and handled an engineering prototype of the completely redesigned scoop and have written an article that I'm trying to publish somewhere.

There was a full scale model of Phoenix at the 2005 JPL Open House. The mission may last up to 5 months and will likely end when the craft is buried under an accumulation of frozen carbon dioxide ice.

Posted by: edstrick May 21 2006, 09:38 AM

Interesting item on SpaceRef: NASA is going to procure laser-retroreflectors to install on the Phoenix lander so that it can be precisely lidar-bounced and located from orbit.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=20608

"NASA Stennis Solicitation: Phoenix Mars Scout Laser Retroreflector Arrays "
"NASA/GSFC intends to purchase an Engineering Model and two (2) Flight Laser Retroflector Arrays from ITE, Inc ..."
"GSFC intents to acquire a set of reflector arrays for the Phoenix Mars Scout mission due for launch in the summer of 2007. These arrays will enable the Phoenix lander to be located from Mars orbit"

Posted by: BruceMoomaw May 22 2006, 12:18 AM

A bit more on the new ice-sampling tool in Deborah Bass' lastest blog entry ( http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/features/weblogs/deborah_bass.php , Apr. 24 entry).

Posted by: Cugel Jun 20 2006, 02:33 PM

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Mission_Simulations_Begin_For_Phoenix_Mars_Lander.html

If you can't make it as a MER rover driver, this could be an interesting job vacancy: Mars arm operator.

Posted by: djellison Jun 20 2006, 02:41 PM

reads much like the testbed they put together for Beagle 2 here in Leicester.

Doug

Posted by: dvandorn Jun 20 2006, 11:35 PM

Oh, gee -- that sounds like a really bad come-on line: "Hey, baby, wanna come back to my place and watch me operate my Mars arm???"



-the other Doug

Posted by: RNeuhaus Aug 20 2006, 12:02 AM

Interesting interview with Chris Mckay about Phonix mission.

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Digging_Deep_An_Interview_With_Chris_Mckay_999.html

The north pole is most desirable than the south pole because of the following factors:

1. The north is lower and smoother than the south. Easier to land
2. South is higher and heavily cratered terrain and harder to land.
3. South needs deep drill to get interesting data.
4. North needs less drilling to find liquid water (probably) at the surface in the more recent past.
5. In the north there might be more young ice.

He does not believe to find any organic materials...

Rodolfo

Posted by: centsworth_II Aug 20 2006, 05:24 PM

I believe this statement was in reference to MSL and Exomars which will land in areas where no ice is present to protect organics (if they ever existed) from oxidants. As far as Phoenix goes, he says that, if present, organics could be protected by the ice and detected. He doesn't say if he expects phoenix to find organics.

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Oct 12 2006, 01:04 AM

http://uanews.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/UANews.woa/6/wa/SRStoryDetails?ArticleID=13200
By University of Arizona Communications
October 11, 2006

Posted by: antipode Oct 12 2006, 07:29 AM

Hi all

Not sure if this has been asked before, but here goes.

Assuming Phoenix outlasts its 90 day warranty - what will finally 'kill' it first - declining temperatures or oncoming polar darkness? I ask this because it seems that at this latitude, the winter frost/snowpack will be pretty deep - it would be wonderful (and sad) if the lander could document its own burial in snow! (until it WAS buried of course).

Is this likely, or will the lander be dead before any snowpack builds up around the vehicle? I always thought the Viking 2 frost pictures were evocative, and here we have a chance to go one better, and presumably catch all sorts of other polar weather processes (development of the polar cloud hood?) as well.

Phil

Posted by: Rakhir Oct 12 2006, 08:38 AM

I don't know the creation process of martian frost/snow, but if some snow is able to build up on solar panels, even if the solar power and the temperature are still good enough, the death might be quick.

Posted by: helvick Oct 12 2006, 10:49 AM

Without snow\frost degrading the panels power output will follow something like this:

My guess is that there can be no precipitation effects until insolation drops well below the levels we've seen at the MER sites ie 30% of the initial max. So frost/snow effects if any should only come into play after around Sol 210.

Posted by: Julius Oct 12 2006, 11:18 AM

Looking at the MRO image of the region close to where Phoenix should make its landing,I would think JPl should be concerned about stone slabs littering the whole area.Has anyone given any consideration as this may be a serious hindrance to a safe landing.

Posted by: tedstryk Oct 12 2006, 01:11 PM

Unlikely as it is, I think it would be really cool if Phoenix can be reawakend after the winter. Even if it can't do much. It would be neat to take a panorama for change detection, especially with regard to its trench, which will have experienced frost coming and going.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Oct 12 2006, 04:26 PM

Julius: "Looking at the MRO image of the region close to where Phoenix should make its landing,I would think JPl should be concerned about stone slabs littering the whole area.Has anyone given any consideration as this may be a serious hindrance to a safe landing."

Yes. One of MRO's jobs is to look for areas without too many rocks.

Phil

Posted by: climber Oct 12 2006, 04:45 PM

Phoenix Home page show this as a future possible landing site : http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/multimedia/images_page/images/landing_site_8_3_06.jpg
Can you provide us with the link of the MRO picture you're talking about ?
Thanks

Posted by: RNeuhaus Oct 12 2006, 07:11 PM

After visiting the http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/HiRISE/hirise_images/
Specifically, around the Phoenix landing zone, up to now, MRO haven't yet posted any additional picture. Soon these pictures will come soon.

Rodolfo

Posted by: Julius Oct 12 2006, 08:42 PM

Thats the MRO image I was talking about except you have to zoom in!The rocks are described as being part of the ejecta blanket from exhumed craters.

Posted by: Anoolios Oct 17 2006, 04:44 PM

University of Arizona news article; Full-scale Mars Lander to be Unveiled at Phoenix Mission VIP Event: http://uanews.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/UANews.woa/7/wa/SRStoryDetails?ArticleID=13235

Hopefully I can make it down there on the 21st to check it out.

Posted by: tuvas Oct 22 2006, 05:35 AM

I was there, it was awesome:-) Among other things, I learned:

1. There is no hope that Phoenix will survive more than about half an Earth year. It stands no chance to be going on for several years.
2. I saw the engineering model of Phoenix, it was really cool. I saw the PIT, the Payload Interoperability Testbed area, very neat.
3. A UA instrument detected water ice near the Martian poles, prompting a UA camera to look for a spot to land a UA spacecraft. Got to love the University of Arizona;-)
4. I answered several questions about alot of things, I wore my HiRISE tshirt, it made me a bit of a target...

So, the whole thing was really cool. Oh, I also saw the room where the MER cameras are programmed, that was pretty cool too. Lots of fun stuff happening:-)

Posted by: edstrick Oct 22 2006, 10:59 AM

phrasemorphing: "There is no hope that Lunar Surveyors will survive much beyond lunar sunset... " 3 of the 5 successfully landed spacecraft transmitted pictures following one to 3 lunar nights. Surveyor 1 transmitted a signal in response to an attempt to wake up Surveyor 6 on 6's second lunar day. (Like rovers and MRO, they assumed they could recycle the old mission's receiver frequency!

I'd assume battery death, but not necessarily total spacecraft death until confirmed otherwise.

Posted by: djellison Oct 22 2006, 01:25 PM

The Lunar Surveyors didn't get burried for > 6 months in frozen ice and CO2. Yes - there's a chance that Phoenix might survive it, like there was a chance that NEAR could have survive 6 months + on the surface of Eros, but I would be astonished if it were to happen, utterly utterly astonished.

Doug

Posted by: tuvas Oct 22 2006, 03:27 PM

There's even less chance that that for Phoenix. Phoenix will be in shifting polar caps, even the slightest movement will shatter the spacecraft, and would destroy the spacecraft, not merely cause it to stop functioning, but quite literally leave it to shreds. Perhaps HiRISE will photograph it after, I imagine some scientific knowledge could be gained from it. Just imagine though, a warning of disturbing images coming from a camera at Mars...

Posted by: tty Oct 22 2006, 04:14 PM

I think you are overestimating how dynamic an ice-cap is. Remember there are no calving fronts on Mars, and ice-falls are apparently decidedly rare too. Unless Phoenix falls into a crevasse on landing I find it unlikely that it will be "shredded" or even damaged by shifting glaciers.

tty

Posted by: nprev Oct 22 2006, 11:53 PM

I hope that it survives for a fair period as the deposits accumulate...would love to see a time-lapse sequence of the build-up!

In fact, is bona fide precipitation possible in any way? Could the CO2 freeze out of the atmosphere in fat flakes, like snow? THAT would be an awesome sight!

Posted by: tuvas Oct 23 2006, 04:58 AM

I have little doubt they'll try to get as much out of it as they can. They will probably take pictures until it won't function any more, time-lapsed pictures, maybe one a day, would certainly be really cool. And, it will be relayed by MRO, so it'll have alot of bandwidth avaliable, power will be it's limiting factor.

Posted by: edstrick Oct 23 2006, 07:26 AM

I have no recollection of estimates what temperatures various parts of the Surveyors got down to. Most of the electronics was in insulated, passively thermally controlled boxes, but the camera, for example, was suspended on struts above the bulk of the spacecraft and pretty thermally isolated. The electronics boxes had second-surface mirrors (glass on the outside) on top, so the mirror surface would bounce direct sunlight while the IR opaque glass would radiate efficiently to black space. They had bimetallic thermal switches that were to go "open" when they got cold enough and break the thermal path from the inside of the box to the glass. These turned out to be "sticky" and not all of them opened. To a good approximation, the surveyors that had most of the switches go "open" worked better on subsequent lunar days. Surveyor 3 had the fewest switches open and was never heard from again.

I suspect the camera got well below CO2 ice temp during the 2 week lunar night, It may have varied between spacecraft in the electronics boxes. The big damage was thermal expansion/contraction breaking solder joints and stuff. Of course, this was pre-<mostly?>-integrated circuit hand-wired electronics. No vaccuum tubes etc, other than probably TWT transmitters.

Once Phoenix is shut down and cools down to ambient temp (are there any isotope heaters, like the ones in the rovers "warm electronics boxes"?), it will end up at CO2 ice temp of 150'ish kelvin (lower pressure and thus frost temp on mars than earth) and pretty much stay at that temp all winter. It's really hard to get much below CO2 ice temp on Mars.

I doubt we'll hear from Phoenix after winter, but unless there's some thing that they *KNOW* will fatally disable any communications ability, I will hope that it can revive to some limited extent after the winter. I'd expect battery failure, but that might not preclude all chance of operations.

Posted by: RNeuhaus Oct 23 2006, 02:15 PM

Does the Phoneix has greater solar panel surface than MER?

It would be a good idea that the Phoenix bring bright colors on its solar panels so that MRO can spot it easier after a long Martian winter.

How long will last the Martian winter at the Phoenix position?

The only way to permit to Phoenix to survive the Martian winter is to have a proper design to keep warm the vital instruments in a box and also have its panels solar well stowed as it was immediately after landing on Mars.

Rodolfo

Posted by: djellison Oct 23 2006, 02:33 PM

I can't help but laugh when people start suggesting design changes to a spacecraft with less than a year till launch. Do you know how silly it is to suggest those sorts of things?

Solar Panels are dark in colour for a reason - and in actual fact, dark solar panels will appear more contrasting to the ligher coloured terrain in the polar region.

And look at the HiRISE MER image - it's the shadow that stands out, not the vehicle itself - with Phoenix, those shadows can at times observable by HiRISE be very very long.

And - once you stow the solar panels again ( which seems unlikely as such operations are usually one way with latches involved) - where do you intend to get the power from to run the vehicle, accept commands and open them up again?

The 'proper' design for Phoenix is the one that gets it on the ground and survives for around 6 months - all the time it will need to do the measurements it is being sent to do. This isn't MER - longevity will not bring anything particularly new. The advancement and retreat of the polar cap is better observed from orbit via HiRISE .

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Oct 23 2006, 02:49 PM

Doug...You weren't THAT rude intentionally were you?...

Posted by: RNeuhaus Oct 23 2006, 02:49 PM

The problem was that I haven't expressed well on the previous post that it was like a "list of wishes".

Yes, I have assumed that the Phoenix design won't be changed for obvious reasons. A good project, is to finish all things within the objectives, budget, and time.

The dark color of solar panel is a good but not as good as an orange color. However, it is probably that Phoenix will land on a dark surface and not on a white surface of dry ice.

About the Phoenix's shadow will be very long and hence big toward the end of winter is a good hint but, if Phoenix lands on dark surface, it would be very hard for MRO to identify it. During its live time, MRO can take pictures 4 times per day: midgnight, 6:00 am, noon, and 6:00 pm.

I was afraid about the solar panels that were designed to open only, only one way. They have no motriz force to close.

About the warm electronic box is a well know solution which are applied to many spacecrafts. For the case of Phoenix, the project design was already defined. Hence, that project won't last no more than 6 months. I knew that.

I don't have to laugh for your comments. I understood your reaction. I am sorry of my bad writing hability to express well.

Rodolfo

Posted by: djellison Oct 23 2006, 03:31 PM

Going on how I read the orig post - yes I was. Going on how I now see it was more a 'blue sky' as opposed to 'realistic' train of though, then no I wasn't.

Doug

Posted by: tuvas Oct 23 2006, 04:17 PM

It is true that the polar regions don't shift much, but even the slightest shift of a few centimeters would be enough to brake the camera, arms, solar panels, etc. Any added weight from the CO2 panels would do the same thing. Just face it folks, Phoenix isn't meant to survive longer than a few months, if we get 6 it'll be lucky. And the change won't really do that much.

I'd also like to add my agreement to Doug's comments. It is silly to request a change in a spacecraft now. And it is the shadows that stick out, we're finding with HiRISE that many of the "dark" regions of Mars just appear to be that way, due to the shadows of rocks. I reviewed a caption to one of the images where that was very apperant. Not to say that that holds true everywhere, but in many places, it does.

Posted by: hendric Oct 23 2006, 05:34 PM

My prediction is that due to the height above ground, and albedo of Phoenix's solar panels, it might stay ice free for longer than we think, and that it will defrost well before the rest of the cap around it.

It will be funny to watch the SSI sticking above the ice, a la R2-D2 in the swamp, as the cap freezes over.

As the cap starts to defrost, maybe we'll get lucky and have an "ice blow"/"geyser" form. If those geysers are caused by dark spots under the ice collecting heat, a large, dark, "rock" under the ice should cause a nice display!

Posted by: nprev Oct 23 2006, 08:56 PM

I don't know if "silly" would be the right word to use in this context... ...believe me, LOTS of people want to make changes right up to the minute of launch. I'm battling against some of them on my project right now.

RN, the sad fact of the matter is that designs have to be frozen at some point in order to meet project cost & schedule requirements. This is particularly true for interplanetary UMSF since the launch windows are generally quite restrictive. A major change late in the game usually means significant delay if not outright cancellation. In fact, Phoenix is a prime example of this: it is a recycled & revamped version of the Mars 2001 lander, which was scrubbed after the Mars Polar Lander failure.

Hope that helped a little...and I would urge some of our fellow members to appreciate both the difficulties and dedication of those of us participating in this forum who are non-native English speakers and choose our comments accordingly.

Posted by: djellison Oct 23 2006, 09:48 PM

I would still argue that suggesting changes should be made to the Phoenix platform to increase the chances of survival of winter is silly. I'm not saying "OMFG WHAT TEH MORON". I'm saying I think it's silly. Silly is about the least offensive word I could possibly use.

I'll be more verbose.

Making the solar panels a bright colour to make the spacecraft more visible from orbit is silly. It's already going to be visible from orbit - very very clearly with HiRISE. It's a larger spacecraft than MER, considerably larger. It will have a two dark solar arrays and a bright spacecraft deck - any one of which will be as visible by HiRISE as MER is on their own. Furthermore if the terrain is a little darker then the spacecraft deck will be even more visible. If the terrain is a little brighter, the two solar arrays will be even more visible. Fundamentally, when it comes to contrast with the environment - the Phoenix design has all possible bases covered. Not only that, but you're saying that on Sol X - you're prepared to kill the spacecraft for a full Martian winter in the hope that the avionics will survive at 100 deg C colder than the MER WEB.

Folding up the solar arrays for winter - that would involve a MAJOR redesign of the avionics. You would kill the spacecraft in doing so, and would then require some form of batteries etc that could survive a -150C and below soak for > 6 months and then somehow trigger the thing back up again once spring arrives.

Phoenix has a quick, focused job to do, which it will get done before winter arrives. Any changes that try to expand this envelope, particularly in adding complexity to the spacecraft are unjustified. Better is the enemy of good enough.

Doug

Posted by: nprev Oct 23 2006, 10:25 PM

No argument, Doug, believe me...I have been there & done that!

Primarily, it becomes a problem of communication, and that can be tedious & time-consuming indeed, esp. if a user has an idee fixe at the last moment that just has to be no matter what or they'll throw a full-fledged hissy-fit (which in my world usually means nastygrams to very senior people, who thereupon start asking questions and themselves have to be educated on the issue)....it never ends!

Certain prefatory phrases now alert me to things that don't have to be. For example, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice if.." raises my hackles instantly! The overarching focus has to be on accomplishing the core mission and satisfying the fundamental requirements that gave birth to the mission in the first place or nothing's gonna happen, a fact of reality which often puts users and project managers at odds with each other.

This is why project management meetings usually drag on for uncounted, acrimonious eternities. This is also why project management people often drink quite heavily...

Posted by: mchan Oct 24 2006, 07:57 AM

Agree the solar panels operation will be one way only, i.e., open. But I would guess the drive to open the panels is capable of operating in reverse direction after what happened to Galileo HGA.

Posted by: MarsEngineer Oct 25 2006, 06:31 AM

Hi Doug et al,

Right again Doug, the Phoenix solar arrays open but do not close (the design uses a metal tape to pull them open).

I agree that we should be able to see the lander pretty well from HiRISE. The one color we should probably consider changing on future missions is the orange & white gores on the parachute (same as on MER). They look nice in test (easy to video in drop and wind tunnel tests) but they do not stand out from orbit (at least I think so). I hope we get some good shots of VL-2, VL-1 and MPF from HiRISE. On none of these missions have we "found" the backshell and parachute (MPL too of course). I have some EDL questions from those missions that s good HiRISE pict will clear up.

-Rob

PS I am one of the worst offenders for violating the "better is the enemy of good enough" principle. Or maybe my idea of "good enough" is off a bit at times.

Likewise I too have unfullfilled wishes (e.g. I wish I could have lifted the MPF side petals after the second month on Mars to see the effect - if any - of dust off loading). It is the inevidible pine of the curious mind. When you get a roomfull of folks loaded with these Martian wishes, things can get down right rowdy.


*******
Comments made here are the author's and do not represent NASA Caltech nor JPL.

Posted by: djellison Oct 25 2006, 07:55 AM

It'll be nice to try and pin down how much of the MPL and Beagle 2 hardware is on the floor - and I've REALLY scoured the MOC imagery in the direction of the alleged MPF backshell ( and thus chute ) with no luck.

Here's one - is 'second colour' of the flight chutes orange for a reason. Blue would seem the obvious choice, and I'm sure I've seen white+blue chutes being tested somewhere.

Doug

Posted by: helvick Oct 25 2006, 09:50 AM

Way out there question - wouldn't it be better to have the second colour something that flouresces - that should cause a chute to be even more visible?

Posted by: climber Oct 25 2006, 06:21 PM

Rob,
I wonder what you can learn from HiRISE images now that you've seen Oppy's backshell from THAT close, I mean even with the microscope?
Would you mind telling us a few words about what you've learnt from Oppy's exploration of her backsell?
Thanks for your very interesting inputs. It's good to speculate here, but once in a while, we need to know the reality

Posted by: djellison Oct 25 2006, 07:11 PM

They saw the heatshield up close....but not the chute and backshell

And I still think the opportunity for a self portrait in the reflective insulation on the heatshield was a tragic miss
Doug

Posted by: climber Oct 25 2006, 07:40 PM

Oh yes I fully agree. I hope we'll not miss this with MSL. The Crane will be large enough to find a place of reflection, and it will land not very far. May be not too late to think about this. Even of no scientific value, the image will be very inspiring, and not only for UMSF'ers. A very wild idea would be to provide MSL with a mirror she can position with her IDD for self portrait. A mirror can also be used to survey places otherwise not reachable by the cameras. This would have may be of some help back at Purgatory.

Posted by: djellison Oct 25 2006, 07:44 PM

Ahh - I don't think I would want to get close to the decent stage of MSL....pressurised tanks....nasty chemicals... a heatshield is fairly benign thing to visit, but a parachute, and a crashed pressurised decent stage...I'm not so sure....

On the upside, Mastcam's got a fair chunk of zoom on it, so we won't need to get too close

Doug

Posted by: climber Oct 25 2006, 07:49 PM

MSL will have a laser that'll KILL the Crane from a distance.

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Oct 25 2006, 11:10 PM

As said before, Skycrane is not name of the "lander", it is called the descent stage. Skycrane is the name of the concept.

Posted by: MarsEngineer Oct 26 2006, 01:47 AM

Doug and friends,

I remember asking the Pioneer gang why "international orange" and "natural white" (nylon) was used, but I do not recall the answer. I should also double check the colors from MPF and Viking. (My fading memory from MPF was that that chute had undyed dacron-like polyester fiber so had a bluish tint. I really should know for sure ...)

Other colors (like florescents) might be a good idea but there are other material property issues that have to be checked and / or tested. (e.g. outgassing during cruise).

I am glad you mentioned the MSL descent stage, given how much angst there was about driving to Opportunity's heat shield I too doubt that MSL would be allowed to get close to so much potentially caustic material. The angst I am talking about was due to the appearance of dust smotes on the rear hazcam as the rover rounded the heatshield crater on its way to the heat shield. The team was very concerned that the dust was from the heat shield char and that it would ruin the ability to use the hazcam or even the other cameras.

We were able to investigate the heat shield (as fast as we could). I do not think there are yet published reports (mostly due to everyone being busy - still), but in a nut shell we confirmed the char depth (approximately) but more importantly the close up images revealed an answer to a minor EDL mystery. There was a surprising amount of oscillation build up (but still small) in the seconds before parachute deployment. We did not know what caused it. However once we saw that there remained a small amount of outer thermal blanketing on the heat shield, we finally found our answer. (It was supposed to burn off.) The blanketing acted like an unwanted trim tab. There is a paper in the works on this one.

All and all, I would say that there always seems to be something to learn by studying the flight data and the vehicle. Pictures really help. (Ever wonder what that long yellowish tape was doing on the MPF solar panel after Sojourner was off the lander? Yep, we goofed.)


-Rob

*******
Comments made here are the author's and do not represent NASA Caltech nor JPL.

Posted by: MarsEngineer Oct 26 2006, 02:10 AM

By the way, I never thought to consider a self portrait using the heatshield inner mylar blanketing as a mirror. I guess we were distracted and in a hurry to get away fromn the char dust. Oh well. (it is always thus).

-Rob

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Oct 26 2006, 02:25 AM

If memory serves was there not a white object identified in Pathfinder images that was likely the backshell?

As I recall there was an attempt to do a super res image of it.

Posted by: dvandorn Oct 26 2006, 02:38 AM

I think the point was that the backshells and 'chutes from VL1, VL2 and MPF have never been seen in MOC imagery. Even though the backshell was tentatively identified in MPF surface images, nothing that looks like it (or its 'chute) has been seen in MOC images of the area, even though they're fairly certain they've identified the lander's location.

-the other Doug

Posted by: MarsEngineer Oct 26 2006, 03:19 AM

Yes and so we thought until we had the MOC C-protos of that area. The "object" turned out to be too close and too small to be a backshell. It was only a few pixels across even in the IMP super res images. It could have been a piece of an airbag cover that came off during our long (and un-measured) bounces.

Although we try not to, we tend to leave small bits when we land .. nothing an astronaut could not tidy up in a day ot two. (Ever see the cable ties from the decent bridle sitting near the base of the Pancam mast? (Spirit I think). Similar with the "bunny ears" from Opportunity (I think it was from the airbag thermal packing near the gas generators - but can not know for sure), the kapton tape on MPF (on the ground near the lander), and the fine thread (probably Vectran) in the early Opportunity microscopic images in Eagle crater. All of these are a natural but irritating side effect of landing on a foreign planet. We prefer that that they stay attached.

I think that the reason that we have not seen the backshells and parachutes is because we have not imaged in the right places yet and/or the signal-to-noise ratio at the highest MOC resolution was to low. I could be wrong, but I hope that will change with the new MRO HiRISE capabilities. I am really excietd about HiRISE.

-Rob

*******
Comments made here are the author's and do not represent NASA Caltech nor JPL.

Posted by: climber Oct 26 2006, 05:49 AM

A few months ago, we also had thoughts about cruise stage(s) making it to the ground. Is that possibe? Did it (they) crashed down range or further ? That could be a nice target for MRO too.
Back to parachuttes; do we know about the colours of the one from Mars 3? Beagle?...

Posted by: Stephen Oct 26 2006, 06:22 AM

Now there I must beg to disagree!

For one thing that statement seems to be implying that the study of the advancement and retreat of the Martian polar cap only involves studying large scale changes, the sort best observed from above; and on an intermittent basis at that (since HiRISE will not be observing the cap's advance and retreat constantly or even consistently; ie it will most likely only be able to observe the same places on an intermittent basis).

But that issue aside why should the study of the advancement and retreat of the Martian polar cap only involve cameras? Phoenix also carries a meteorogical station. Are you suggesting that there is nothing to be learned about Martian seasonal change and its interaction with the polar cap over the course of a Martian winter from data collected by such a station?

======
Stephen

Posted by: djellison Oct 26 2006, 07:39 AM

I agree, LIDAR obs during winter would be interesting, but during martian winter, Phoenix is going to be very very very dead.

And HiRISE can and will follow the advance and retreat of the icecap.....a job almost designed for MARCI which will obseve the site at LEAST daily, and because it's near polar it may well get imaged several times per day. An equatorial site, yes, HiRISE would struggle to image it regularly ( MARCI would still do so however ) but because it's near the pole the 'overlap' of the orbits is so much closer that repeated, higher res observations ( with CTX or even HiRISE ) will be much easier.

Doug

Posted by: Stephen Oct 26 2006, 08:05 AM

No one's disputing the death of Phoenix, Doug. (Albeit I suspect that most of us probably harbour some hope, however small and slender, that miracles can happen and that the thing will live up to its name! ) Even if the pressure of all that snow and ice building up on top of it doesn't crush it (or the more delicate parts of it at any rate, like solar panels and radio antennae), being buried for months in ice, especially CO2 ice, will doubtless do bad things to the electronics inside of it.

But that wasn't the point I was making. There are some things that can be better done from orbit and there are some things that can't. I'm sure there were people out there who would have argued before the MERs were launched, for example, that there was no need to send rovers--and two at that--to find proof of water on Mars when all the proof that would ever be needed to settle the issue could be found using orbiters equipped with cameras, spectrometers, and radar.

======
Stephen

Posted by: djellison Oct 26 2006, 08:56 AM

Yes - there are things that are best done from the ground....but following the advance and retreat of an ice cap of hundreds of km's isn't one.

It's clear that we're talking about different things and an argument is brewing - so I'm stopping it here and now.

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Dec 6 2006, 05:37 PM

http://space.com/businesstechnology/061206_mars_lander.html

Posted by: climber Dec 6 2006, 09:38 PM

There's quite a nice picture of the harware...
Do you still plan to go for launch?

Posted by: ustrax Dec 7 2006, 11:02 AM

Yes I do...

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Dec 7 2006, 04:06 PM

Can I push the button?

Posted by: punkboi Dec 7 2006, 05:12 PM

I could care less about how Phoenix meets its fate after its mission... I just hope its thrusters work beautifully when it's descending to the ground at the beginning of its mission

Posted by: ustrax Dec 7 2006, 10:43 PM

Sorry, the place is taken...there's a crowd dying to do it before you do...

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Dec 7 2006, 10:52 PM

OK then. No ride on my avatar for you.

Posted by: ustrax Dec 8 2006, 06:36 PM

One of this days I'll buy one of those...

Posted by: Stu Dec 20 2006, 05:30 PM

http://www.fourth-millennium.net/mission-artwork/phoenix-mars-lander-twilight.html

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Dec 20 2006, 08:07 PM

It is now a mouse click. The buttlon has been removed and was given on a plaque to the last person that pushed it.

Posted by: lyford Dec 20 2006, 10:23 PM

Is that true? Who was it? What launch?

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Dec 27 2006, 08:40 PM

Has anyone noticed the newly re-designed http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/?

Posted by: djellison Dec 29 2006, 06:25 PM

Well - on the up side they added more blog entries

Doug

Posted by: Navin Dec 29 2006, 06:54 PM

The website redesign seems to have hidden the recent hi-res EDL video. Does anyone know where that is available?

Posted by: djellison Dec 29 2006, 07:24 PM

The file was phoenix_landing_hd.mov - but even pruning URL's - it doesn't appear to be there at all any more.

To be honest - I downloaded it but my laptop ( 1.8G Centrino, Geforce 6800 Go, 1920 x 1200 screen ) couldn't handle it - I got the next one down

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Dec 29 2006, 07:30 PM

I couldn't find it either but there there is a nice gallery including http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/gallery.php...

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=131&cID=4

Posted by: dilo Dec 29 2006, 09:02 PM

Doug, I dowloaded it but vision on my PC (which is by far less powerful than your) was horrible...
then, yesterday, I bring it to the home of a friend who possess an Home theater with HD projector and wow ! even though not perfectly fluid, the 100" vision was terrific!
However, I do not know the exact characteristics of the HTPC connected to projector...

Posted by: Bob Shaw Dec 29 2006, 10:22 PM

They call *that* flat? Bloody hell!

I had assumed that 'flat' was going to really mean, er, flat...

Bob Shaw

Posted by: helvick Dec 30 2006, 01:41 AM

Interesting performance anecdote. I downloaded the HD version (all 102.9MB of it) and I find that I can play it back without any noticable problem with IRFANVIEW on my IBM T43P (1600x1200 monitor, ATI FireGL TV3200 video card, 1.8Ghz Centrino) . However my Quicktime player (V7.something I have to admit) seems to stutter noticably and VLC Media Player has major continuity problems playing back this HD version.

I'd happily upload this somewhere if I was confident that doing so was compatible with whatever license that might govern the media but for the moment I think we need to just continue to search for the link on the new Phoenix site - it is substantially better than the "HQ" version that is the best I have been able to find on the new site layout.

Posted by: OWW Jan 10 2007, 05:33 PM

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_space_story.jsp?id=news/PHOE01107.xml

Another possible cause of MPL's crash?
I hope it will work properly for Phoenix.

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jan 10 2007, 07:17 PM

Here's the real interesting (and disturbing) portion:

QUOTE

Doug McCuistion, NASA's head of Mars exploration, told The DAILY he expects the overrun to be in the double-digit millions of dollars, all of which must be offset by cutting the budgets of other Mars exploration efforts. [Emphasis added]

It might be a good thing that Ed Weiler is no longer running space science at NASA HQ. He might have swung his axe (as he came within a whisker of doing when MESSENGER faced smaller overruns) and cancelled Phoenix outright.

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Jan 10 2007, 07:23 PM

Isn't that one of the tentants of the Discovery program? Live within your budget or get cancelled. I think that has been one of the good things out of FBC, cost caps.

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jan 10 2007, 07:30 PM

Yes, and Mars Scout is supposed to be patterned on the Discovery model. On the other hand, this is, after all, Mars we're talking about. Given its high visibility and attendant PR value, maybe NASA HQ is bending over backwards to ensure Phoenix flies.

Posted by: Spacecadet Jan 12 2007, 09:42 AM

It would take a lot to cancel Phoenix because of a budget overrun. Remember that hundreds of millions of dollars have already been spent on the project and to cancel it would waste everything. The DAWN project had a similar review and was put on hold for months but was eventually reinstated.

Cost capped missions are both good and bad. It has made NASA pay more attention to cost but one of the problems is that NASA still likes to pick aggressive - high value missions. Deep Impact, Phoenix, Messenger, Dawn are all not simple - MGS like missions (i.e. orbiter). This rewards proposers who make "aggressive" assumptions about what a mission will cost... which then leads to overruns.

While MCO failed due to the infamous english to metric mix up one of the core issues that contributed to the failure was lack of funding. When you lack funding, you lack people, and then things start slipping through the cracks. Who is to say if MCO or even MPL had more appropriate funding if they would have failed. Perhaps testing or analysis that they probably had to cut for budgetary reasons would have found the problems that caused their loss.

The core problem is that the funding available for cost capped missions does not allow for most projects if everyone was sufficiently conservative with their cost estimates so as to not overrun. The projects that it does allow are often of lower scientific value than the more expensive ones... and the selection is heavily based on science.

NASA might be learning it's lesson however. If you notice the Scout proposals selected to go to the next round do not include any landers.

All in all it is pointless to can a mission that is in ATLO because of a cost overrun. The money has already been spent. If cost is a concern... do not select the risky missions in the first place.

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jan 12 2007, 04:52 PM

Perhaps, but it could also be due as much to the science review panels giving a high value to proposals addressing martian atmospheric science (a high-level MEPAG objective and best addressed globally by orbiters) as it was to the TMC panels rating landers vs. orbiters.

Posted by: Stu Jan 17 2007, 07:07 PM

Not sure if there's anything new in this, but worth a look...

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5284271,00.html

Posted by: nprev Jan 17 2007, 10:34 PM

Did MPL fly the same radar altimeter as Phoenix will? For a variety of reasons (many of which I disagree with, but that horse has been beaten into its constituent atoms on other threads), a lot of basic avionics like RAs & inertial reference units seem to get re-invented for new missions.

[EDIT]..sorry...I should actually read instead of partially skim these articles. It is indeed a re-fly of the MPL RA.

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 17 2007, 11:59 PM

I think, given the problems with MPL's descent, that a new radar might have been a prudent move!


Bob Shaw

Posted by: nprev Jan 18 2007, 01:19 AM

Point taken... , but what I was trying to say is that given the fact we've successfully landed on Mars five times, why not fly a proven instrument? For Phoenix, I'd say that the MER RA would have been ideal...though the project timeline may not have made that evident in time for CDR.

Understand the issues of technological advancement, obsolescence, vanishing vendors, etc., but I suggest that for Mars landings it would be wise to procure something like a 10-year suite of critical flight avionics that have been 'combat tested' for use on all missions during that period. Kind of a larger infrastructure investment than a given project could foot on its own, but IMHO a less risky approach.

"Better is the enemy of good"...especially when talking about equipment designed to perform similar functions used in high-risk endevours, like UMSF!

Posted by: djellison Jan 18 2007, 08:03 AM

The requirements for the MER Radar and Phoneix Radar would be a little different I would have thought - the Phoenix radar would be required to do a bit more than just altitude.

Doug

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Jan 18 2007, 12:57 PM

Phoenix is different from MER which is different than MSL. How many missions does this 10 years cover? And who is building the landers, JPL, LM, or someone else?
Like you said, "issues of technological advancement, obsolescence, vanishing vendors" this would be th problem.

Posted by: stevesliva Jan 18 2007, 07:23 PM

Sunk cost... the decision shouldn't be to justify past expenditure, but to justify additional future expenditure. You stop and ask, given what it will cost me to finish this hardware and complete the mission, is it worth it? Unless you have grossly awful hardware like the composite LH2 tank on the VentureStar--when you actually are throwing a lot away and starting from scratch--the answer is usually yes. But, then again, the superconducting supercollider proved that sunk construction costs don't commit the government to finishing their projects!

(yes, oversimplified discussion of VentureStar's woes, but the point is that sunk costs don't guarantee that problem programs get the green light to spend more, especially given political climate changes.)

Posted by: nprev Jan 19 2007, 01:10 AM

Oh, no argument that these missions are quite different, and the "NIH" syndrome would be a significant obstacle to overcome...

Using radar altimeters as an example, this is a mature technology designed for a specific, common, flight-critical function...why continuously re-invent it? If there was a NASA directorate focused on developing common avionics boxes, then they might produce a new "standard RA RT" every ten years or so based on a demand of, for example, four lunar and/or Martian landers over that period. The SRA RT would have programmable vehicle MIL-STD-1553 & let's say RS-422 serial data interfaces (as well as available discrete outputs for event triggering) & an adaptable power supply (let's say between 10-32 VDC). The installation variables would be antenna type & placement as well as antenna cabling.

This essentially makes any standard box (in addition to RAs, I'm thinking of IRUs, comm transceivers, Sun/star sensors, etc.) a constraint for a given mission, since designers would have to figure out how best to install it, evaluate mass & volume impacts, etc. However, this also removes the burden of designing & building (or arduously selecting) their own, which may drive down costs & decrease developmental time (esp. if the boxes were provided gratis by NASA as government-furnished equipment). There even may be some pressure to use up the stock, which might translate into more approved missions...

Posted by: mcaplinger Jan 19 2007, 01:53 AM

The MPL/PHX radar is a multibeam Fourier doppler radar that can measure velocity. The MER radar didn't need to do that, and couldn't. So there are legitimate engineering reasons to develop new designs that I don't think you are appreciating.

There's plenty of standardization for box-level avionics: the LN-200 IMU and the Small Deep Space Transponder come to mind.

http://marstech.jpl.nasa.gov/publications/Pollard-IEEEAC-1188-2005.pdf has some background on the MPL radar, and a proposed radar design for MSL.

Posted by: nprev Jan 19 2007, 02:35 AM

I stand corrected (& thanks for the clarification! ). I was unaware of the standardization efforts you described; hopefully the trend will expand as appropriate & practical.

Posted by: edstrick Jan 19 2007, 09:20 AM

"...The MPL/PHX radar is a multibeam Fourier doppler radar that can measure velocity. ...

I would have thought that the Mars 2001 lander that was "Transformered" into Phoenix had a perfectly decent radar, probably derived from the Polar Lander technology. It's not as though this was the hottest new technology. Viking and the lunar Surveyors did it. Granted, they'd be heavy and made of parts no longer available, but this seems more than a bit strange that's it's a bit $ impact. I'd like to know "THE REST OF THE STORY...."

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Jan 19 2007, 01:23 PM

NASA doesn't fly enough missions or "common boxes" to justify this. Also why should NASA develop the boxes? That is for industry to do (market driven economy)

The boxes referenced (INU, SDST) aren't part of a focused "standardization" effort. Just some some onezes and twoezes that have become COTS.

Posted by: Steve G Jan 24 2007, 08:04 AM

Any chance of Phoenix being woken up the following spring after a year long hibernation? Once the solar panels begin to generate power, what would it take to thaw the thing out and reboot the electronics? No one ever thought the Mer rovers would be working into their forth year, so why not ask the preposterous?

Posted by: Decepticon Jan 24 2007, 09:17 AM

I was wondering about that to. Can the lander be put into Hibernation?

Posted by: Rakhir Jan 24 2007, 10:18 AM

Some discussions about the Phoenix hibernation are available in the same thread
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=1611&view=findpost&p=72335
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=1611&view=findpost&p=73391
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=1611&view=findpost&p=73311

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Jan 24 2007, 12:31 PM

This would have all burned out

Posted by: djellison Jan 24 2007, 12:47 PM

http://pancam.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/335B_heatshield.html
http://pancam.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/339B_heatshield.html

Swathes of unburnt reflective insulation from inside the heatshield - some reflecting the sun, some the sky, some the ground.

Doug

Posted by: climber Jan 24 2007, 03:41 PM

Aviation Week of this week says they've discovered a crack in the backshell but this will not push back the launch date

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Feb 1 2007, 11:26 PM

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/070201_phoenix_update.html
By Leonard David
Senior Space Writer, Space.com
posted: 01 February 2007
05:01 pm ET

Looks like they dodged a Weiler-style bullet:

QUOTE

Goldstein said that in March of last year, the Phoenix project started having “some significant challenges” in bringing the mission in at a $386 million cost cap. The team notified NASA Headquarters of the overrun last August, requesting a new slug of money, he added, roughly $31 million.

At a meeting last week, Goldstein said that NASA officials gave the project a go-ahead, although the final price tag of the mission has yet to be fully vetted. “The vehicle is behaving very nicely. Things are looking good technically as well as with the schedule and where we are headed. We have no threats to launch at this point,” he said.

Posted by: Spacecadet Feb 6 2007, 07:33 AM

This is also a good way of looking at it. VentureStar is probably a bad example because it is unclear it would have worked at all and even if it did it was far from where Phoenix is now.

Also to comment about "using things that flew before" is often a problem because it is not available. Remember MER/MPL were started over 10 years ago and were designed with reliable technology then. Companies stop making parts after that long (ask Intel for Pentium 200 MMX or a 486) and this is even more true when it involves space qualified parts, which involve a huge amount of paperwork and testing.

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Feb 16 2007, 07:05 PM

A couple of recent updates from the http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/:

Mars Mural Unveiling
by Angela Poulson
February 15, 2007
The Phoenix Mission Science Operations Center is proud to announce the unveiling of a twenty- by sixty-foot mural on its south exterior. This artistic celebration of the Phoenix Mission was painted by Alfred Quiroz’s fall 2006 mural painting class as collaboration between the UA School of Art and the UA’s Lunar and Planetary Laboratory.

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/blogsPost.php?bID=112
by Suzanne M. M. Young
February 14, 2007

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/blogsPost.php?bID=105
by Deborah Bass
February 12, 2007

Posted by: punkboi Feb 16 2007, 07:49 PM

It's great that they updated the Phoenix site...but, um, did Deborah Bass repeat those last lines in her blog on purpose? Quite odd. And I'm kinda confused as to what the "flight units" are that Susanne Young is talking about. The hydrazine fuel? They both get 'C's in writing!! J/k

Posted by: babakm Jun 11 2007, 02:09 PM

AvWeek (6/10/07): http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/aw061107p1.xml&headline=Phoenix%20Mars%20Lander%20Readied%20for%20Launch&channel=space

Posted by: punkboi Jun 12 2007, 05:29 PM

NASA's KSC video feed page contains a shot of Phoenix undergoing launch preps...as well as a shot of Dawn's Delta II rocket (with all SRBs now attached)

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/countdown/video/

Posted by: Tom Tamlyn Jun 12 2007, 07:02 PM

Babkm, thanks for posting the link to the outstanding article on Phoenix by AviationWeek's Craig Covault.

It's not only a clear and beautifully organized summary of the basics, but it's also filled with nuggets of insight, comparison, and bits of new (to me) information.

I miss the golden days of the frequent MER press conferences, when we could watch Covault and other experienced science journalists at work. (To say nothing of watching SS and the rest of the MER team.)

TTT

Posted by: Airbag Jun 13 2007, 01:47 AM

Guess now that the "scoop" on the scoop is out, I can finally show the picture I took of an early model of the ice abrader at Honeybee Robotics in April 2006. They were working on it then, but it was kind of hush hush...

Seems like they didn't change the design a whole lot based on the AW&ST pictures.

Airbag

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jun 14 2007, 10:42 PM

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=5903
University of Michigan News Service
June 14, 2007

Posted by: djellison Jun 14 2007, 11:08 PM

I'm reminded of the cliff-top scene from The Big Lebowski

Doug

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jun 14 2007, 11:20 PM

As Walter said to The Dude: "F--- it, man. Let's go bowling."

Posted by: nprev Jun 15 2007, 02:12 AM

It had to happen: the wit and wisdom of the Cohen brothers has finally entered the august domain of UMSF dot com... ...too cool, really!

Posted by: dvandorn Jun 15 2007, 03:35 AM

So, what you're saying is you went to Mars with a couple of *little* guys, eh?



-the other Doug

Posted by: punkboi Jun 18 2007, 08:52 PM

First stage for Phoenix's Delta II rocket now in place at Pad 17-A:

http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=173>http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=173

(Scroll down since the photos were put in Dawn's gallery section)

Posted by: BPCooper Jun 18 2007, 11:09 PM

Here is Phoenix's category for future reference:

http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=174

...not sure why they put those in Dawn's category. Of course if you read the captions on the Complex 36 demolition photos, I'm not surprised.

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jun 19 2007, 12:04 AM

Up From the Ashes: The Genesis of the Phoenix Mission
Phoenix PI Peter Smith tells the story of the science objectives of Phoenix and the implications of what may be discovered.
June 15, 2007
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/video/up_from_the_ashes.mp4

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/blogsPost.php?bID=128
by Peter Smith
June 17, 2007

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/blogsPost.php?bID=135
by Patrick Woida
June 18, 2007

Posted by: nprev Jun 19 2007, 01:14 AM

Of course; but don't be messin' with The Dude, yo, even indirectly!

Meanwhile...fine history encapsulated, AB...I'm confident that the ashes of Phoenix's genesis will be nothing but obstacles and afterthoughts in the future, which is entirely congruent with the history of exploration in general. This is going to be one hell of a mission, and by God I can hardly wait...

Posted by: remcook Jun 19 2007, 08:47 AM

although it probably won't be as nice for people to play with the data (pretty pictures) since it doesn't move, but it will be very exciting as it digs deeper and deeper. In a way it's moving in a vertical direction. Science wise it is a very exciting mission and I am getting excitied about it

Posted by: Stu Jun 19 2007, 09:28 AM

I thought that at first, but now I'm looking forard to seeing how a set landscape changes in appearance during the sol... how the shadows grow and shrink, how the colours and hues of the ice shift subtly, how the sky changes in appearance... this will be a much more "relaxing" armchair mission I think, less frenetic than steaming up and down hills or johhing around the rim of a crater, snapping everything in sight like a tourist on their first visit to London! A little like finding a well-hidden beauty spot while hiking and then just sitting there on a boulder for an age, savouring it, drinking in the experience, you know?

Really looking forward to it now after reading more about it.

Posted by: BPCooper Jun 26 2007, 09:45 PM

Some photos from today's viewing:

http://www.launchphotography.com/Phoenix_cleanroom.html

Posted by: MahFL Jun 27 2007, 06:05 PM

Awseome pictures...I piticualarly like the one of the men laying on the floor looking up her skirt, lol.....

Posted by: ustrax Jul 3 2007, 10:45 AM

From today and untill the launch I'll dedicate some time at the spacEurope blog to the Phoenix with several and different guests.
I've started http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2007/07/as-i-publish-these-words-only-month.html from the Max Plänck Institute (participating in the mission) talking about the Robotic Arm Camera and the CCDs (their speciality...) and others will follow.
I tried to make some nice, understandable graphics from the images provided by Dr. Goetz, like http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s18/spacEurope/phoenix_ccd_fig1.jpg?t=1183387937, hope it may be useful.

Posted by: Pedro_Sondas Jul 4 2007, 10:43 PM

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/mardi_update.php

Posted by: nprev Jul 5 2007, 05:47 AM

Dammit. This is not good; concerned now about the systems engineering/integration rigor for other functions of the vehicle. Hopefully, this is completely unjustified.

Posted by: Analyst Jul 5 2007, 07:26 AM

I am the first one who says spaceflight is hard and risky. But after these strange Dawn launch problems now this. I have to ask if there is a lack of planning, competence, money, I don't know.

There has to be a backup plan for launching Dawn after July 11th and launching Phoenix on time. Pay overtime, work weekends. Downrange tracking assets need backup. I know this is not even comparable but remember a Apollo mission being delayed because one tracking aircraft is not on station.

MARDI is one science instrument now incabable of doing its mission. This instrument dates back to Mars 98! Nine years.

Or maybe NASA is now extremly risk adverse and does not take any chances as it did in the past. I don't consider this a good thing.

Analyst

Posted by: djellison Jul 5 2007, 07:31 AM

There is - it's called destacking and trying again after Phoenix has gone.

Doug

Posted by: Analyst Jul 5 2007, 08:19 AM

I know. And you should know that I know. And you probably know I mean launching Dawn *before* Phoenix. And reading the Dawn forum there now is a plan to try later in July. But all this is not the point here.

Analyst

Posted by: Rakhir Jul 5 2007, 08:27 AM

Sure it's very bad news.
But the loss does not seems to be so huge.
According to the update, this single image will still show smaller details than HiRISE.
This gives us the intermediate resolution between ground cameras and HiRISE.
For larger context views, HiRISE should do the job.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

How many images were planned between HiRISE resolution and touchdown ?

Posted by: djellison Jul 5 2007, 08:59 AM

The point is that Dawn was due to launch earlier - but it's been cursed with several unfortunate delays. How many delays do you want them to be able to accomodate? Or do you just want them to be able to always accomdate one more, whatever the cost?


Doug

Posted by: Analyst Jul 5 2007, 04:01 PM

The July 7th date was set in late May/early June after the crane problem. Strange telecon followed late June - about four weeks later and after announcing normal press conference first. So the situation is known for more than a month now.

Anyway, the combinded Dawn and Phoenix launch windows are known for about a year (since the Dawn launch was set, Phoenix was fixed much earlier). So someone should have though about "what if we can first try on date xx inside our window and not on July 20th"? Do we fuel the second stage or postpone or ...? What are the costs of trying later (after July 11th, closer to August 3rd)? What are the costs of delaying after Phoenix? Its like a mission plan: What to do if? And the "if" is not something strange and unpredictable (in particular with a afternoon launch time in the summer). In short: What is our strategy? The process as I see it lacks a strategy and looks like a set of ad hoc decisions.

And for MARDI: Ask the PI about the loss. It is probably more than 90%. Not talking about the outreach/PR opportunity lost.

Analyst

Posted by: djellison Jul 5 2007, 04:09 PM

That's probably because we're not seing every part of the decision making process. You're trying to make out like they're just bringing this together like a bunch of amateurs. I really don't think that's a stance that's fair or justified. Just because you're not privy to ever iota of the decision making process, that doesn't mean there isn't a well documented, thought out and pre-prepared process involved.


We've been told - it can't be done.



We were told - $25m.

As for the MARDI thing - that's a different kettle of fish. I find that news frankly shockinggiven the ammount of time there has been (given that a similar instrument was bolted to a similar spacecraft nearly a decade ago) and the ammount of reviews that must have occured since Phoenix was selected.

MPL failed because of flaws in the planned testing. Testing in this case should have flagged up this error a LONG time ago. If they find this with a month till launch - what are they yet to find? My 'faith' in Phoenix making it safely to the ground has taken a nose dive.

Doug

Posted by: BPCooper Jul 5 2007, 04:24 PM

Just to note here, it appears they DID find a workaround plan because they say they will give Dawn shots up until the 19th of July without a Phoenix delay (the 19th is the last day of the planetary window for Dawn as well, until September).

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Jul 5 2007, 05:07 PM

1. It is on the fly because you can't cover all the options or think of all the 'what ifs" and you would be wasting resources.
2. Because the best time to schedule a vacation for a cape worker is a launch date a year away. They will never conflict. (except Mars launch windows), so most conflicts deconflict themselves
3. The teams are worrying about the next launch, not a launch a year away
4. Launch schedules are success oriented. See #1
5. ULA is paid a set amount for a launch service. It is NASA's problem that they slipped to be close together. ULA is not manned like it was for MER. It can't just throw overtime at the problem

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Jul 5 2007, 05:15 PM

There aren't backup aircraft. They don't exist. There isn't Apollo money around. The USAF shutdown the ARIA fleet and there are only 2 existing TM aircraft in the nation: P-3 and Big Crow.
Other systems OTTR and mobile sites don't support missions with moving trajectories.

A 3 stage Delta II is hard to place a TDRSS transmitter on it since the second and 3rd stage would require one. Atlas already uses TDRSS, D-II has been reluctant to incorporate one : $ and weight

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jul 5 2007, 06:02 PM

Frankly, this disturbs me more than the Dawn problems.

Posted by: dvandorn Jul 6 2007, 03:58 AM

Now, here's a question: did MPL have a descent imager and did it route its data through the same board as Phoenix is now arranged? I get the feeling from what is being said that this arrangement has been in place since the Surveyor 2001 configuration, and I know that configuration was very similar to the MPL configuration...

-the other Doug

Posted by: mchan Jul 6 2007, 06:16 AM

MPL had a descent imager. The Phoenix descent imager looks like a clone or direct descendant of the MPL one. Probably only folks on the inside would know about the interface details. Mike Caplinger or Jim from NSF?

Posted by: Analyst Jul 6 2007, 02:00 PM

The communication, and this is the only information we have, suggests there is not such a well prepared plan. In the end it comes down to some person to make a decision: Take the risk (of fueling the second stage, of flying without a tracking aircraft, etc.) and try to fly or delay. And stand by this decision (and maybe resign) if there is a failure. Again, it seems to me like people are extremly risk adverse these days. I respect Mr. Griffin (And I am not a Griffin-fan) for the decision to fly the shuttle before STS-121 despite the opinions of other management people to delay and develop a new ice-frost ramp. This has been a bold (and correct) decision.



It looks like it can. And will be from July 15th to July 19th.



Question is: Is it cheaper to try closer to (and before) the Phoenix launch and pay overtime fees, whatever, or is it cheaper to destack, place Dawn into a cleanroom, test and stack again and fly in September or October. With $25m for the second option (and a Delta 7925H at about $80m (?)) you have plenty of incentive to use the first. $25m is almost one third extra to the total launch service cost. It looks like NASA knows this too and will try again from July 15th to July 19th.



We are not talking about some strange failed component never been there before, but about a launch delay within a short planetary window. Nothing new or fancy. The simple question is: Are x days left in the window enough to start trying to fly or not?

Tracking assets: It is sad to know there are no backup aircraft anymore. Is this part of the service the range offers? It is always the same: Save a few bucks now and pay later $25m for a delayed launch. Btw., I always wondered why it takes two days to switch the range from one vehicle to another. Titan II Gemini launches took place ninety minutes after Atlas-Agena with the docking target. In the mid 1960ies! And please, nobody tell me how hard it is with modern technology.

MARDI: I seldom share the opinion of Keith from NasaWatch.com, but here he is dead on:



Analyst

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Jul 6 2007, 02:51 PM

1. It is not a range service. It is procured by NASA and/or ULA for the mission.

2. not "few" bucks. Maintaining the ARIA fleet was costing the USAF approx 100 mil a year. There wasn't enough users. The Delta II design is the real issue: a. it would require 2 transmitters b. the mass is not exceptable to users

3. During the various upgrades of the range and the drop in launch rates since the 60's, there hasn't been a requirement to launch missions that close. So the upgrades never took it into account and neither does the manpower. Apollo and the cold war are over and so are the blank checks. The range is user funded, so less and infrequent users means less money.


As for the "risk", It is a hard requirement to recieve and record telemetry of every engine burn. This is non waiverable and launch constraint. If there is an anomaly on Dawn, how would you clear it for Phoenix

Posted by: AlexBlackwell Jul 6 2007, 11:48 PM

Regarding the MARDI issue, I note http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2007/07/nasa_tries_to_s.html on NASA Watch. I'm not sure about the testing for Phoenix but I thought MARDI had passed a similar test for MPL (i.e., confirmation of non-interference with the EDL sequence). Perhaps someone who was involved with the latter could clarify.

Posted by: mcaplinger Jul 7 2007, 09:50 PM

Rather than give you the inside story, which I obviously don't have the authority to do, let me ask a question. The press release says this:

So the question: what probability of failure should be considered an "unacceptable risk"? The bug that caused the failure of MPL had a probability in the tens of percent, as I recall from the review board reports, so it was obviously unacceptable. But given that a PHX landing failure would result in no science data being returned, it might not take that large a probability to be judged unacceptable. I didn't have to make that call, and I don't know what the failure probability assessment was, but the press release implies it wasn't zero. Of course, in aerospace failure probabilities of zero don't come along very often.

Disclaimer: just my own opinions, no privileged information.

Posted by: monitorlizard Jul 7 2007, 10:50 PM

I find myself agreeing with Rakhir on the MARDI issue. One descent image, taken at the optimum time, should be enough to help quickly locate Phoenix's landing spot in a later HiRISE image. Yes, some science will be lost, but it seems to me that ten or so descent images are most desired to create a "landing movie", which would be more for PR than science. It would be nice if MARDI could squeeze out two descent images, that would do a lot to provide context for the surface images.

Lockheed Martin has had more than their fair share of screw-ups in the last ten years, so I do share everyone's disappointment about this.

Posted by: belleraphon1 Jul 7 2007, 11:26 PM

All...

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/jul/H...stpone_Sep.html

"NASA will hold a news briefing at 11:30 a.m. EDT on Monday, July 9, to preview the launch of the Phoenix Mars Lander. Prior to the Phoenix presentations, media will have the opportunity to learn in more detail about the rescheduled Dawn launch.[i][u] The briefing will originate from the NASA Headquarters auditorium, 300 E St., S.W., Washington. It will air live on NASA Television and be streamed online at: http://www.nasa.gov/ntv"

Craig

Posted by: edstrick Jul 8 2007, 07:43 AM

Mardi for the 2001 Mars Lander was pre-pre-pre thinking about Mars Recon Orbiter and 29 cm/pixels from orbit. In the context of Global Surveyor images that were more than a bit noisy at full resolution (so that the noise could easily be higher than the actual contrast of small terrain features), and were much <most?> of the time taken with pixel-binning at lower resolution, MARDI was absolutely scientifically necessary.

It'd still be nice to have had a color landing-zoom movie, but it's no longer a critical mission capibility for geologic interpretation.

I expect they'll pick a frame size to get resolution between 5 and 10 cm per pixel, something better than Recon Orbiter's 25-29'ish cm/pixel, but still get decent area coverage.

(I'm still frustrated, 41 years later, that neither Surveyor 1 or 2 got descent image sequences at the moon)

Posted by: mcaplinger Jul 8 2007, 06:10 PM

There seems to be some confusion about the color. MARDI/PHX ( http://www.msss.com/mars/surveyor/ms98/lander/mardi/abstract/abstract.html ) is panchromatic (black-and-white), though the images could be colorized via the usual methods. It's the MSL MARDI (completely different instrument, just the same name) that's color.

Question: if imaging from a moving, powered platform, would you rather take a single image or a series of images?

Disclaimer: just my opinions, public information only.

Posted by: djellison Jul 8 2007, 06:21 PM

Exactly - I'm sure Dan's overdone it a bit on the EDL animation - but there's no guarentee with the thing pitching and rolling around that just one image, at almost any point during landing, will get the landing site itself into frame.

Doug

Posted by: monitorlizard Jul 9 2007, 12:43 AM

I can't imagine any serious problem with HiRISE finding Phoenix after it lands, unless it wildly misses its target ellipse. At 29 cm/pixel, Phoenix should stand out like a sore thumb in a color image. If it should happen that the one mardi descent image doesn't capture the exact landing site, I don't think all that much science will be lost. The terrain should be geologically similar for an area much larger than the landing ellipse.

Posted by: tedstryk Jul 9 2007, 03:20 AM

I have worried about the mission in the past. I mean, while we found out a likely reason for the MPL failure, we can only hope that there weren't other problems that were overlooked. While much time and money has been spent improving Phoenix, it still is, at its core, a spacecraft designed and built in the pre-MPL/MCO faster-cheaper-splat days. I won't have an comfortable feeling about it until it is safely on the surface (then again, the only mission I didn't feel that way about, given all the things that could go wrong, is Voyager at Neptune, and that was because I was 10 years old and too dumb to consider it).

Posted by: mcaplinger Jul 9 2007, 03:42 AM

As I have said many, many times before in this forum, any spacecraft can fail no matter how expensive it was. Neither MS98 failure had that much to do with money, and both designs were fundamentally sound IMHO.

Posted by: tedstryk Jul 9 2007, 04:38 AM

That was what I was indicating by my parenthetical statement.

Posted by: Zvezdichko Jul 9 2007, 08:41 AM

There's something I have missed. Is there a telemetry relay system onboard Phoenix so everything could be reviewed during descend?

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Jul 9 2007, 12:59 PM

It records the telemetry. Only tones (semaphores) are transmitted during descent

Posted by: centsworth_II Jul 9 2007, 04:21 PM

Did I just hear on the Phoenix press briefing that MRO
was to try and image Phoenix "...on the way down."?!

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 9 2007, 05:26 PM

I wasn't listening, but they are probably talking about the entry trail. As I recall MGS attempted this (unsuccessfully) with one or both of the MERs.

Posted by: climber Jul 9 2007, 06:19 PM

It's what I heard too

Posted by: djellison Jul 9 2007, 06:27 PM

MOC2 WA didn't see it with MER - and thus I doubt MARCI would see Phoenix- but I imagine a carefully aimed CTX might get it.

Doug

Posted by: Tom Tamlyn Jul 9 2007, 08:45 PM

Is there a replay site or phone number for today's press conference?

TTT

Posted by: mars loon Jul 9 2007, 09:14 PM

your reading my mind

Yes, was just about to post. the portion I saw this afternoon were quite informative. some new graphics

tonight at 7 and 10 PM EDT on NASA TV.

ken


http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html

July 9, Monday
10:30 a.m. - ISS Commentary - JSC (Public and Media Channels)
11:30 a.m. - NASA Science Briefing - HQ (Public and Media Channels)
1 p.m. – Replay NASA Science Briefing - HQ (Public and Media Channels)
4 p.m. – Replay NASA Science Briefing - HQ (Public and Media Channels)
7 p.m. – Replay NASA Science Briefing - HQ (Public and Media Channels)
10 p.m. – Replay NASA Science Briefing - HQ (Public and Media Channels)

Posted by: edstrick Jul 10 2007, 09:26 AM

CRISM might be able to see something, too.

Posted by: ustrax Jul 10 2007, 09:31 AM

Daniel Parrat made a great work at http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/ explaining the principles of the atomic force microscope part of MECA:

The FAMARS instrument,
an http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2007/07/famars-instrument-afm-for-planetary.html
With Daniel Parrat, Institute of Microtechnology University of Neuchâtel

Posted by: ustrax Jul 12 2007, 08:17 AM

The FAMARS instrument,
an http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2007/07/famars-instrument-afm-for-planetary_11.html now available at spacEurope.

Posted by: BPCooper Jul 14 2007, 05:40 PM

I have seen a mix of August 24 and 25 listed as the last day of the window. Does anyone know for sure? Thanks.

Posted by: BPCooper Jul 16 2007, 07:29 PM

Here is a launch times chart:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/070716windows.html

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 16 2007, 07:45 PM

Ugh...any day you look at it, those are nasty times for following the launch from the West Coast...should be a beautiful dawnlit or nighttime launch though! Can't wait to see your pictures, Ben

Emily

Posted by: ustrax Jul 17 2007, 09:09 AM

An astrobiological point of view at http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2007/07/phoenix-and-boundary-of-life-on-mars.html.

OT: Have you guys seen that monstruous dust storm over Phoenix, Arizona?!
Better there than over the Phoenix, on Mars...

Posted by: punkboi Jul 20 2007, 07:12 PM

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/countdown/video/chan13large.jpg

Phoenix is now in its payload canister...ready for delivery to Pad 17-A.

Posted by: Zvezdichko Jul 23 2007, 05:02 AM

Phoenix will be delivered to the pad today.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 23 2007, 08:37 PM

Photos of the mating to the second stage are going up now.

http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=174

--Emily

Posted by: punkboi Jul 30 2007, 08:03 PM

An 80% chance of favorable launch weather conditions this Friday...according to Spaceflightnow.com.

Go Phoenix!!

Posted by: volcanopele Jul 30 2007, 09:42 PM

The Arizona Daily Star is doing a series on space science at the University of Arizona in preparation for the Phoenix launch. Too bad they forgot that there is more to space science than Mars. I understand, given that these articles were written for the Phoenix launch, but given the broader scope of some of the articles, it would have been nice for them to remember the non-Mars related research that is done here:

http://www.azstarnet.com/special/spaceu

Posted by: nprev Jul 30 2007, 11:46 PM

Now, VP, why would you of all people ever feel like that?

True enough, though. Outer-system research is definitely revealing considerably more dynamism than anyone would have ever expected, and therefore also many, many important research objectives. Problem is that most of the general public knows at least something about only one other planet (which shall remain nameless), period, so of course there will be a focus on a goal that can be easily identified. For example, I have a great deal of trouble explaining to people that both Io and Titan are satellites of other planets...they just don't get it, even very intelligent, exceedingly literate people, because neither the background nor the core interest is there. It's an uphill battle, but one that can be won...

Unpalatable as it seems, we as a community of both real-live scientists like yourself and rabid lay-enthusiasts like me have to consider marketing and other things related to human behavior and public perceptions in order to obtain funding. For these and other much more pragmatic reasons, the launch ratio between Mars and outer-planet missions is probably gonna be at least 5 to 1 for the forseeable future...but at least, the door to the future is being propped open thereby.

Go Phoenix!

Posted by: ustrax Jul 31 2007, 08:47 AM

Full agreement on that!

http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2007/07/today-we-will-have-different-kind-of.html
I'm really happy with the result of that Phoenix Special, all the participations brought different perspectives about the mission, from the sometimes not so mediatic and forgotten technological details, to astrobiology, passing by ethics, and poetry...
Better than I expected...and Friday's guest is PI Peter Smith...
Couldn't find a better way to wrap it up...

Posted by: BPCooper Jul 31 2007, 03:05 PM

Launch postponed 24 hours. Threat of bad weather moving in today preventing second stage loading.

Posted by: djellison Jul 31 2007, 03:14 PM

At least I can watch it on TV at home as hopefully Sky News will carry a feed on the news multiscreen thing and I'll be able to watch it at home - failing that, I can just watch it at home with a web feed.


Doug

Posted by: Zvezdichko Jul 31 2007, 03:31 PM

What will happen if Phoenix fails to launch until 7? Will there be problems with the upcoming launch of Space Shuttle Endeavour?

Posted by: nprev Jul 31 2007, 03:32 PM

Rats...can't find an update on the Web for this, must be especially fatfingered today. BP, do you have the new launch time?

And, yeah, ZV...that would be a conflict. I expect that Phoenix would get priority, though, since planetary launch windows are far more restrictive than those for LEO.

Posted by: BPCooper Jul 31 2007, 03:35 PM

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/070716windows.html

Phoenix has priority so I would expect the shuttle to delay if Phoenix does not go by the 5th, maybe the 6th but unlikely. If Phoenix was delayed due to a technical problem that needed fix time, then it could just go on the other side of shuttle. But for weather they are sure to get Phoenix off the ground first.

The shuttle is facing problems of its own right now though.

Posted by: ugordan Jul 31 2007, 03:36 PM

Is there even a conflict at all? They are launching from different pads and the support infrastructure probably is different as well.

Posted by: nprev Jul 31 2007, 03:38 PM

I think it's a matter of range safety rules, UG...only one launch at a time in order to focus any (God forbid) emergency response efforts.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 31 2007, 03:39 PM

I've got the http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001054/ in the blog.

--Emily

Posted by: BPCooper Jul 31 2007, 03:42 PM

The range cannot support more than one launch at a time. They must reconfigure between launches, and the ideal time between is 48 hours.

A Mars launch August 6 would leave only 37 hours of time, but I've heard at least one person say they could theoretically do it.

Posted by: Zvezdichko Jul 31 2007, 03:43 PM

Also is there an option for extending the launch window period? As I remember problems with Opportunity 4 years ago nearly forced managers to think about one or two days additional time?

Posted by: BPCooper Jul 31 2007, 03:57 PM

The more precise updated times are 5:26:34am and 6:02:59am.

I don't remember about Opportunity. It had a Delta 2-Heavy so maybe that's why.

I have heard conflicting reports of the window ending Aug 24 and 25.

Posted by: nprev Jul 31 2007, 04:30 PM

Thanks for the launch time updates, BP & Emily...very much appreciated!

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Jul 31 2007, 04:38 PM

they use the same range

Posted by: punkboi Jul 31 2007, 07:39 PM

Ben... Always the bearer of good news.

Posted by: climber Jul 31 2007, 07:57 PM

When I saw a message from VP on a Mars mission topic I thought : "what is he doing on this side of the Solar system? "
Now I understand

Posted by: ustrax Aug 1 2007, 08:39 AM

I was thinking about posting Peter Smith's participation in the spacEurope Phoenix Special but as the launch has been postponed and not knowing if it may happen again possible I've anticipated the publishment for...http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2007/08/phoenix-launches-to-mars-principal.html.

"Our studies of Mars have proven that life is not easily found on the Martian surface. The atmosphere has only the slightest hint that there may be biologically-produced gas (methane) at the parts per billion level. None of the fleet of orbiters can point to a location where life exists. Without exploring the surface, answers will never be found to this most intriguing question—are we alone?"

Posted by: punkboi Aug 1 2007, 03:50 PM

Does anyone know if the second stage fueling was completed this morning?

Posted by: BPCooper Aug 1 2007, 04:38 PM

Yes it was.

Posted by: punkboi Aug 1 2007, 04:48 PM

Awesome. Thanks Ben

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 1 2007, 04:57 PM

Too strange they can't make it on Friday...

Posted by: punkboi Aug 1 2007, 05:11 PM

It was mentioned in a NASA press release yesterday...

"Due to a forecast for severe weather around the Kennedy Space Center launch pad in Florida on Tuesday afternoon, fueling of the second stage will not be completed. Although fueling is expected to be finished Wednesday morning, there is insufficient contingency time in the schedule to move forward with the launch on Friday."

Posted by: nprev Aug 1 2007, 05:14 PM

That probably refers to range set-up time; remember the problems with the telemetry relay aircraft that in part caused the Dawn slip? Smart to have some buffer time to make sure that all the assets are ready.

(A delaminated aileron right out of Depot maintenance...still ticked off about that! )

EDIT: As (I believe) BP mentioned, Phoenix definitely has priority, and Endevour apparently has a cabin pressure leak, which are always a real joy to find & fix...pityin' the Shuttle maintainers right about now, their inner ears probably feel pretty lousy after a few pressure cycles:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/08/01/space.shuttle.ap/index.html

Posted by: Rakhir Aug 1 2007, 08:01 PM

Interplanetary networking: ESA’s Mars Express will keep an eye on NASA’s Phoenix
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMWNCWUP4F_index_0.html

Posted by: climber Aug 1 2007, 08:15 PM

I'll be out of possibilities to watch launch on saturday or sunday but not out of telephone reach.
Before the Internet, I used to listen launches but I've lost telephone n° since. Does anybody know the phone N° I'll have to dial in the KSC to listen to the launch...if such a phone N° still exist ?
Many thanks

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Aug 1 2007, 09:07 PM

Isn't that a bit like listening to news coverage of an eclipse of the Sun on the radio?

Posted by: djellison Aug 1 2007, 09:25 PM

" information to two of NASA’s satellites already orbiting the Red Planet. To be on the safe side, NASA has requested Mars Express, which has been in orbit around Mars since December 2003, to also monitor the EDL phase."


requested..REQUESTED!!
With the ammount of DSN time we've had from NASA, ESA should have been knocking on JPL's door "Is there anything we can do - anything at all?"


Doug

Posted by: ugordan Aug 1 2007, 09:33 PM

Well, they probably didn't need to request real hard...

Posted by: elakdawalla Aug 1 2007, 09:35 PM

Oh, Doug, relax. I'm sure ESA wouldn't have said no -- but these things can't happen without an apalling quantity of paperwork, which must begin with a formal request from NASA to ESA. (This is probably not just for ESA's sake; I'm sure there's a lot of annoying ITAR stuff that must be got through to allow the transmission of information about Phoenix to ESA.)

--Emily

Posted by: lyford Aug 2 2007, 12:29 AM

When I read this

over on the http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001056/, I read "free lunch photographer."

No offense, Ben: I know it's no picnic to get images as beautiful as yours.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Aug 2 2007, 12:40 AM

True, but then they'll make us wait six to nine months for the images, and when we do get them they will have been airbrushed over by an artist.

Posted by: mchan Aug 2 2007, 03:04 AM

I had interpreted the release as monitoring the "tones" from EDL. Is imaging planned? A photo of the entry contrail would be awesome!

Posted by: climber Aug 2 2007, 05:06 AM

The radio emissions of the Sun can't get to Earth during an eclipse of the Sun
I don't know how you feel yourselve (and others) but images are one, and, by listening at communications during the countdown one can feel all the tenses of the action and I love that. It's quite the same as listening to the EDL... ok may be not the same if we can see the contrail live next year ( ). So, if somebody get the phone N° I'm looking for ....

Posted by: ugordan Aug 2 2007, 12:36 PM

I'm with Climber on this one, the solar eclipse analogy was a bad one. I'd go as far as to say the audio is more important in giving the feel of a launch than visuals are. The radio chatter and engine roar can be just as exciting as nice visuals, in fact I can think of a few launch videos that are awesome but really spoiled by bad audio. MRO comes to mind for some reason... On the other hand I'd kill for an audio of Saturn V first launch with Walter Cronkite yelling "My God! The building's shaking!".

Posted by: djellison Aug 2 2007, 12:51 PM

Audio "We have had an anomaly"

Video - A Delta II exploding.

Audio is better than nothing, but it's doesn't tell the whole story. BUT - I would trade video for proper comms loop audio

Doug

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 2 2007, 01:42 PM

The last post of Doug made me shivering because the first thing I read was "A Delta II exploding"

Now clouds are the only concern, but chance for delay because of bad weather is low.

Posted by: ustrax Aug 2 2007, 03:15 PM

A bit off topic here...
Cool to see that on the http://www.mps.mpg.de/en/aktuelles/pressenotizen/pressenotiz_20070801.html has on its site two references to know more about the Robotic Arm Camera onboard the Phoenix...: University of Arizona and...mine...

Posted by: nprev Aug 2 2007, 05:19 PM

Cool!!! US, can you post a direct link to your story? I can read like maybe three words of German...

Posted by: jamescanvin Aug 2 2007, 05:28 PM

Links are right at the bottom of the page and in English.

Nice work getting linked Ustrax.

James

Posted by: nprev Aug 2 2007, 05:52 PM

D'oh! So it is; I'm a dolt, was looking for an embedded article. Thank you, James, and congrats again, US; nicely done.

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 2 2007, 07:04 PM

I was watching the press conference, the team is ready for a Saturday liftoff. Go, Phoenix!

Btw what would be the GMT times for the launch attempt - August 4th, Attempts: 5:26 and 6:02 a.m.?

Posted by: BPCooper Aug 2 2007, 07:07 PM

Those are EDT. Add four hours.

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 2 2007, 07:10 PM

Thank you very much! I also thought it was so, I needed to be sure! Once again, thank you!

Posted by: Littlebit Aug 2 2007, 09:07 PM

But don't post anything for at least four hours: We don't want to know what happens before we see it ourselves

Posted by: climber Aug 2 2007, 09:10 PM

So, you're not at the KSC, Ustrax !

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 2 2007, 09:21 PM

Did you hear about that "air condition problem"? I hope this won't have any impact on the spacecraft's health.

Posted by: BPCooper Aug 2 2007, 10:35 PM

Whatever happened (sounded like a power surge from a t-storm that affected the air conditioning into the payload fairing) appears to have been a minor issue that has been cleared or will be cleared shortly.

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Aug 3 2007, 12:02 AM

It was cleared

Posted by: ustrax Aug 3 2007, 07:19 AM

Thanks guys...
Not bad for someone chasing wild abysses...

climber...don't mention that...
I had everything planned to be there today but as the company decided to move into new facilities in June everything got messed up, I should be on vacations and I'm still in the office...
I'll try to keep a close watch.

GO PHOENIX GO!

Posted by: ustrax Aug 3 2007, 11:02 AM

Man...this is confusing...
Now on the Phoenix site the countdown clock marks 14h to go...
That makes...1.26 GMT...

Posted by: akuo Aug 3 2007, 11:13 AM

The countdown clock says 12h for me. It must be taking the time from the local time of the web page user, making it wrong unless it's set to EDT.

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Aug 3 2007, 11:37 AM

If you are talking about this page

http://countdown.ksc.nasa.gov/elv/

WINDOW OPENING TIME is the GMT of launch time

The L-TIME and T-TIME are total minutes MMMM:SS, not HHMM:SS.

All the times in the Countdown Events window are MMM:SS

Posted by: akuo Aug 3 2007, 12:32 PM

The Phoenix site countdown:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 3 2007, 12:53 PM

That launch countdown gives me ten hours until launch..

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Aug 3 2007, 12:58 PM

The only I listed is the official one and it is synched to the range clocks

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 3 2007, 02:18 PM

Jim,

Why should the first stage of the rocket be fueled just hours before launch, but not days before? For example a Soyuz rocket is being fueled with kerosene days before launch if I'm right. Sorry if my question is silly...

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Aug 3 2007, 03:42 PM

Delta II heats its kerosene to increase performance. It would cool off if tanked earlier

Posted by: BPCooper Aug 3 2007, 04:20 PM

Soyuz is rolled out to the pad horizontally the day before, so no, not until the final hours is it fueled with RP-1 and O2. And don't forget oxygen boils off, so that is why it is loaded right before launch.

Posted by: BPCooper Aug 3 2007, 05:52 PM

The shuttle launch has been postponed 24 hours so more chances for Phoenix is needed.

Posted by: nprev Aug 3 2007, 05:54 PM

Hearing some unpleasant rumbles that weather may be an emerging concern for Saturday. On the positive side (in this context), Endeavour's been slipped to Wednesday per Spaceflightnow.com.

EDIT: Sorry, BP, didn't mean to step on you...guess we saw the news at the same time.

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 3 2007, 06:15 PM

Hmmmm.. Where did you get that info? There is no website I know that shows something about a weather concern.

Posted by: punkboi Aug 3 2007, 07:20 PM

I think those 'sources' were just pulling your legs.

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 3 2007, 07:33 PM

... and don't worry about the weather, the situation is just fine and we'll get this little birdy out of its nest tomorrow

Posted by: ustrax Aug 3 2007, 08:21 PM

Mars be praised...
That baby hasn't left earthly ground and I can't already wait to see her reaching her landing site...this is going to be hard...

Posted by: Zvezdichko Aug 3 2007, 08:27 PM

Firstly we are going to see a blastoff in flames and then a beautiful rocket will reach the sky Be patient

It's so good to have you, wonderful friends here, at UMSF

Posted by: ustrax Aug 3 2007, 08:32 PM

I would just give my right...chair..to be there...
I really have a great feeling about this mission...that kind of feeling that might lead us into a great time of space exploration.

And yes...it is great to havea place where we can find people who share visions of Beyond...Great!

Posted by: punkboi Aug 4 2007, 12:39 AM

Mobile Service Structure now rolling back from the Delta II...

http://countdown.ksc.nasa.gov/elv/public/

Posted by: nprev Aug 4 2007, 01:09 AM

Now that is a super-cool link, PB; thanks VERY much! Next best thing to being there.

Posted by: Tom Tamlyn Aug 4 2007, 01:25 AM

Yesterday's prelaunch press conference is archived on the invaluable http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org site, which has emerged as a crucial resource for devotees of nasa press briefings, even though its main focus seems to be shuttle and ISS operations.

For me there were two highlights: (i) meeting Chuck Dovale, who I gather http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/podcasting/STEREO_launch_directors_transcript.html with Omar Baez, who led the New Horizons launch, and (ii) learning a little about the way the launch "instant" times can be manipulated (in this case, scheduling the launch for the morning, when the weather's better) by varying the coast time between the second stage firings.

TTT

EDIT: Baez also figures in one of the many insightful vignettes which make Roving Mars such an instructive as well as entertaining book. pp. 210-211.

Posted by: punkboi Aug 4 2007, 01:57 AM

Hmm. Does anyone know why the tower hasn't retracted yet?

EDIT: Nevermind. Lightning reported 50 miles southeast of the launch pad...said to be drifting north.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7823&start=91&posts=99

Posted by: nprev Aug 4 2007, 02:31 AM

Yeah, that's the problem with Florida; lightning's usually no more than 50 nm from anywhere, all the time.

Posted by: punkboi Aug 4 2007, 02:46 AM

MST rollback taking place now!

Posted by: ollopa Aug 4 2007, 04:15 AM

The ISS made a wonderful appearance in the western sky as we were waiting for the roll-back. I see from Calsky that the ISS will be visible right behind the pad at liftoff this morning. Anyone got good contacts in the TsUP who could warn the crew to watch out ?? Should be an amazing sight from both the ground and orbit !

Posted by: Jim from NSF.com Aug 4 2007, 05:24 AM

watch here
http://countdown.ksc.nasa.gov/elv/