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Posted by: volcanopele May 27 2008, 06:03 PM

Okay, I missed the first few minutes of the press conference. What happened to MRO UHF?

Posted by: bcory May 27 2008, 06:04 PM

Seems the UHF radio on the MRO is out.

Seems not able to recieve uplink from Phoneix

Posted by: stevesliva May 27 2008, 06:06 PM

MARDI has a microphone, although it may not be turned on. http://www.msss.com/phoenix/mardi/index.html

There's a lot more to that story, though, and this isn't the thread for it.

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 06:06 PM

A "transient event" affected MRO's UHF so they were unable to uplink Phoenix commands.

Posted by: mhoward May 27 2008, 06:08 PM

A "transient event" - they are working on turning it back on.

Posted by: volcanopele May 27 2008, 06:10 PM

HiRISE image of the probe on the surface

Posted by: The Singing Badger May 27 2008, 06:12 PM

OMG!!! Crater/parachute fusion!!!!

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 06:12 PM

OMG, that parachute image just got way better!

HiRISE steals the show!

Posted by: bcory May 27 2008, 06:13 PM

OMG What an image!

Wallpaper of the year!

Posted by: volcanopele May 27 2008, 06:14 PM

Looks like that bright thing to the south is the parachute. heat shield to the northeast.

Posted by: djellison May 27 2008, 06:15 PM

How well did I do

So it's the backshell to the south, and something else to the north.

Doug

Posted by: Bjorn Jonsson May 27 2008, 06:15 PM

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! And they managed to image Phoenix on the surface in color!

Posted by: djellison May 27 2008, 06:18 PM

Can't wait to get that parachute in colour not-via-a-web-feed

Doug

Posted by: Juramike May 27 2008, 06:22 PM

Wow!

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230826main_lander-topviewcolor-browse.jpg

It looks like Phoenix "stained" most of the meso-polygon it landed in. (Also looks like it's smack dab in the middle of a meso-polygon as well)

-Mike

Posted by: volcanopele May 27 2008, 06:25 PM

So THAT'S what that crater image was on the HiWall...

Posted by: paxdan May 27 2008, 06:25 PM

http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/HiBlog/wp-content/uploads/PSP_008579_9020_descent.jpg gets back on chair

Posted by: djellison May 27 2008, 06:30 PM

For the first time, I'm going to get that HiRISE image in full, and get it printed as big as it takes to see that in full.

Posted by: Ames May 27 2008, 06:30 PM

That is stunning.

Posted by: scalbers May 27 2008, 06:35 PM

Meteorology note - the weather report had a diurnal temperature range from a high of -30C and a low of -80C. I gather that the frost point of CO2 is around -123C that we would look for at night later in the season. This varies slightly on Mars depending on the elevation/pressure. One can get a feel for this with the following phase diagram (noting Phoenix is at about 8 millibars).

http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/CHEMWEEK/pdf/CarbonDioxide.pdf

One can parenthetically note that the -80C low is closer to the CO2 frost point on Earth (given Earth's higher pressure) that may barely allow CO2 frost to form in Antarctica at times. I've heard about this happening, though not too many details as of yet.

Posted by: JRehling May 27 2008, 06:38 PM

Well, I think the rover paradigm, while enormously useful in certain cases, may be needless here. The idea is that a presumably isotropic sheet of ice is under the soil, and that's what we're looking for. There's no doubt that there's SOME science that could be done by exploring this big flat area and the far-off topography, but that runs a distant second or third in terms of priorities here.

Rovers are sort of wheeled surrogates for us. But how would an earthworm explore Mars if it could build spacecraft? Or a hawk? Or a tuna?

I think the next steps in Mars exploration might get away from the rover paradigm. At least, we ought to make sure of the scientific goals and the terrain before we design hardware. For example, I could see a mission that fires bullets at an exposed cliff and then analyzes the samples that chip off. Or one that puts very bit of non-instrument mass into the deepest drilling possible.

At risk of overgeneralizing, I think the more we pursue geology goals, the more we'll turn to rovers, and the more we pursue astrobiological goals, the more we'll consider alternatives to rovers. And ultimately the highest price tags for exploration will be paid by astrobiology, lest we'd be doing this on the Moon or Venus.

Posted by: jabe May 27 2008, 06:41 PM

I'm with you ...
now to find it on HiRise site..did a quick look and didn't find it.
jb

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 06:43 PM

As I understand the HiBlog post, the full res image is noisy as hell so that's why they reduced the resolution greatly.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan May 27 2008, 06:47 PM

They also promised (or implied) eventual image cleanup, enhancement and color on that image down the road at yesterday's press conference.

Posted by: volcanopele May 27 2008, 06:48 PM

Hopefully, it will still go up on the HiWall here. All it is showing now is that Heimdall image.

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 06:48 PM

Geez, good time to wrap up the briefing, it was turning into MRO UHF recovery briefing, not Phoenix briefing...

Posted by: centsworth_II May 27 2008, 06:51 PM

I was glad they asked a lot of questions about it. Peter Smith probably was too, as he said he was just then hearing about it.

Posted by: djellison May 27 2008, 06:51 PM

I'll shut up the old one now - but this one will probably run until the press con after next.

Posted by: Sunspot May 27 2008, 06:56 PM

There will probably be more news stories about the mission today due to the UHF issue than if the problem hadn't occured. The press do like reporting on problems lol

It must be very frustrating for the science team though - having to wait a little longer.

Posted by: Roby72 May 27 2008, 06:57 PM

Anyone heard about Greenbank ? Was it possible do receive the Phoenix signal ?

Robert

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 07:00 PM

Did anyone find a more complete HiRISE surface shot encompassing also the backshell? Did they crop it out due to lack of color coverage or what? I didn't quite understand if MRO succeeded in both imaging tries so this color shot is actually the second one?

Posted by: nilstycho May 27 2008, 07:03 PM

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230842main_PSP_008591_2485_RGB_Lander-str.jpg

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/index.html

Posted by: jabe May 27 2008, 07:04 PM

I liked the mars weather graphic they posted..
Is it posted somewhere or did they just create it for the press conference.
be great to have that up on the web site
cheers
jb

Posted by: kwan3217 May 27 2008, 07:04 PM

I missed the briefing, and I have a question about the parachute. I see an image http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230826main_lander-topviewcolor-browse.jpg of the lander and what looks to me like a crater where the heatshield bounced and a burnt heatshield, both to the southeast of the lander. I also see no sign of the parachute or backshell, and the link for the parachute image on http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/phoenix-hardware.php is broken. Did anyone see an image of the parachute?

Edit: I see it from a post above, thanks! So, do they have a better latitude/longitude for the lander reported yet? Also, when latitudes are reported, are they planetographic or planetocentric?

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 07:04 PM

Thanks!

Posted by: Mongo May 27 2008, 07:07 PM

That was my understanding from the press briefing. The first HiRISE image (11 hours after landing) was not precisely aimed at Phoenix, as its position had not yet been nailed down. It was captured in the wider B&W portion of the scan, but not in the central zone with colour. By the time of the second image (22 hours?), the location of Phoenix was precisely known, so MRO was able to capture it in colour, using the central zone of the HiRISE camera.

Posted by: nilstycho May 27 2008, 07:09 PM

I missed the exact coordinates, but you can figure it out from the http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/topomap_near_ellipse_v2_001.html.

Posted by: Stu May 27 2008, 07:09 PM

Here you go...

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/phoenix/collection_16/Sol001_weather_report_black_background_1-r2__800-600.jpg

Posted by: JRehling May 27 2008, 07:10 PM

Fascinating that the backshell stained an area about half as big as the stain around Phoenix. That impact must have been pretty hard. I hope that minimizes the worries about the propulsion as a contaminant.

Posted by: GuyMac May 27 2008, 07:11 PM

That is exactly right. In fact, in the EDL+11 image, we at first only noticed the chute, the lander is barely visible (low sun angle, one of the solar arrays is in shadow).

Posted by: kungpostyle May 27 2008, 07:13 PM

Question on the sliding rock:

Is it possible the helium venting right after landing moved the rock?

It seems like the trail would have been blown away if that had happened.

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 07:14 PM

Hi Guy,

Any chance the first image'll be released as well?

Posted by: djellison May 27 2008, 07:15 PM

Getting bored of martian doughnuts - so I un-philed this one

Posted by: bcory May 27 2008, 07:26 PM

At today's confrence they said they believe it's movement was caused by landing thruster blasts.

Posted by: Mick Hyde May 27 2008, 07:30 PM

Nice work, how did you do this?

Mick.

Posted by: fredk May 27 2008, 07:32 PM

Truly a classic image, that hirise descent shot!

Has anyone else noticed that the impact points for both heatshield and backshell appear dark in the hirise shot? Presumably this means that there's no ice very close to the surface, otherwise I'd expect to see some bright debris or at least bright regions inside the impact craters. There shouldn't have been much time for exposed ice to evaporate?

Anyone recall how deep Oppy's heatshield crater was? 20 cm or so?

Posted by: bgarlick May 27 2008, 07:35 PM

Before the arm is even un-stowed, Phoenix has already excavated the polar region, well at least it's heatshield did!

My question is why is the heatshield impact site so dark if this region is nothing but ice just under the surface?

When we start digging are we also going to see equally dark material?

(EDIT: looks like fredk, previous post, noticed the same thing... Maybe if the ice surface is highly reflective and the sun is not in the right place for specular
reflection then it would appear dark? ie, is it dark because we are seeing a reflection of dark sky?)

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 07:36 PM

It's actually the backshell that looks to me as the one that's been excavating anything. The heatshield impact site appears black, maybe due to charred debris off the shield?

Posted by: bgarlick May 27 2008, 07:42 PM

Reasonable idea, but Oppy's heatshield impact site excavated a few inches at least and did not leave much fine charred debris to cover the impact site.

Posted by: um3k May 27 2008, 07:43 PM

Don't forget about the burned cork.

Posted by: kenny May 27 2008, 07:46 PM

Both MER heat shields seemed to invert, i.e. folded back over on themselves after splitting apart, exposing a bright shiny metallic interior which was so relfective in the Rover images. This time it looks as if the heatshield landed shiny-side down without breaking into pieces.... assuming of course it is manufactured the same way as the MER heatshields.

Can anyone say what the interior of the Phoenix heat shield looks like?

Posted by: bgarlick May 27 2008, 07:48 PM

Maybe that is it. I looked up a Oppy heatshield impact and indeed I do see some dark material deposited...

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap050209.html

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 07:53 PM

It's not completely reflective from the inside, quite dark apparently. There's a certain area covered in metal foil:


Judging by this, the shield impacted front end first, bounced and turned around with the front end looking up.

Posted by: nilstycho May 27 2008, 07:58 PM

For comparison, Spirit's from the http://marsrover.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040324a/x_pubeng_heatshield_zoombox-A080R1_br2.jpg and http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/163847main_Gusev-c.jpg.

Posted by: MaxSt May 27 2008, 07:59 PM

That huge crater on the HiRise image, where is it on the map?

Posted by: nilstycho May 27 2008, 08:00 PM

Heimdall is the "large crater to the right" on http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/topomap_near_ellipse_v2_001.html. It's http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=68.25&lon=234.3&zoom=7 on Google Mars.

Posted by: kenny May 27 2008, 08:02 PM

I think it has to be the huge crater to the right (east) of the landing elipse

Posted by: scalbers May 27 2008, 08:19 PM

Very nice to see your mosaic Doug. It's amazing how much more easily this can be made (and shared) today compared with when I did it with Viking imagery back in 1976-77 at JPL. One question though, do you have any means of geometrically correcting the camera images or is this slightly more approximate? Perhaps the curved edges on some of the available images indicates they are converted to a cylindrical projection?

Steve

Posted by: remcook May 27 2008, 08:20 PM

wow, more amazing stuff from hirise! it seems phoenix affected quite an area surrounded it. but I assume this is only the top few mm. Is that right? I didn't see the press briefing.

Posted by: djellison May 27 2008, 08:31 PM

I just totally guessed it from the Polar projections on the Phoenix website - Photoshop distorted back to rectangular, and then reduced the height by about 3/4s. About as scientific as measuring the distance from the earth to the moon with a ruler.

Doug

Posted by: kenny May 27 2008, 08:33 PM

So HIRISE must have taken TWO separate images of Phoenix on the chute?

In the first one released, with the dark background, the chute is to the upper RIGHT of the lander, while in the big picture taken against the crater Heimdall, the chute is to the UPPER LEFT of the lander.

Unless they twisted round one of images, for some reason ? Are they both from the same image?

Posted by: djellison May 27 2008, 08:38 PM

One is a mirror of the other. In the rush to get it ready for press, they probably didn't get time to properly process, or they didn't compensate for some obscurity due to the weird imaging plan involved.

Posted by: GuyMac May 27 2008, 08:42 PM

They are both from the same image. The one with the crater was rotated so it is more aesthetic, with the crater walls more or less perpendicular.

Posted by: Ant103 May 27 2008, 08:42 PM

I arrived in late… But, what a GREAT picture from Hirise!!! Incredible, in can't believe my eyes.

Posted by: dot.dk May 27 2008, 08:49 PM

As I understand it, the chute image was taken with HiRISE at a very high angle. Maybe they should do that more often to make these dramatic images

Posted by: imipak May 27 2008, 08:51 PM

One data point on media coverage: I can't decide if this is good or bad news though. This story http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/2008-a-martian-odyssey-834577.html, and there's a very positive leader (editorial) as well:

I got my souvenir copy :/ A couple of the other broadsheets had it as a single column, below-the-fold item... and that was it.

Posted by: marswiggle May 27 2008, 09:02 PM

Fantastic new images!

If anyone's interested in identifying objects around Phoenix in HiRISE images, http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_002328_2485 is an earlier image (PSP_002328_2485) which includes the confirmed landing point. The exact location of the landing spot in the full map-projected image is P 18600, L 12000.

A north-up crop from the old image, with labels pointing to their right to the known locations of hardware.

Posted by: peter59 May 27 2008, 09:03 PM

HiRISE usually points downward. For this image, the pointing was at 62 degrees, nearly two-thirds of the way from straight down to horizontal.

Posted by: Shaka May 27 2008, 09:08 PM

Thanks, Guy, that settles that.
A year or two ago this might have snowballed into a grand debate between schools of thought: the 2-shotters vs the Mirror-Imagers - complete with mascots, slogans and principal spokespersons. It was good, clean fun, but used a lot of bandwidth. Now GuyMac logs on, types 2 authoritative sentences, and we move on to other topics of interest!
The ratio of researchers to wannabes at UMSF seems to have soared in recent months. That leaves a lot of us with little to do but listen and learn, but results in a professional/amateur educational melange that must be pretty unique in the scientific realm.

Ya gotta love it.

Posted by: stevelu May 27 2008, 09:17 PM

So now we know why Phoenix drifted so far East.

It was -- perhaps in a hastily-hatched conspiracy with HiRise -- angling to line up in front of Heimdall crater, so that we could have that absolutely stunning picture. Question is, were any of the humans in on it?

Anyone want to take bets on how many major news pubs put it on their cover and/or front page above the fold?

Posted by: Ant103 May 27 2008, 09:18 PM

I'm wondering if there will be released a full frame jp2 file of the picture with crater and Phoenix EDL

Posted by: christian_d May 27 2008, 09:19 PM

I noticed that in the color picture HiRISE took (http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230842main_PSP_008591_2485_RGB_Lander-str.jpg), the area around phoenix is darker. This area is about circular, circa 7 times Phoenix's lenght in diameter.

Is this due to the thrusters? It seems to be a larger area affected, compared to the ground images (there was the discussion about the "dusty" rocks). Can this be seen in earlier HiRISE images from before the landing?

Posted by: SFJCody May 27 2008, 09:20 PM

Mars really is a human place now isn't it? Three surface outposts, three orbiters, orbiters imaging each other, orbiters imaging landers both in descent and on the surface. Seems like it's an extension of Earth, our rust red world next door. So different in feeling from the long empty gap before Pathfinder and all that followed.

Edit: That said, the Heimdall crater + Phoenix image still gives a startling sense of perspective- huge, alien crater and a tiny fragile human machine heading into the unknown... we've barely begun to explore this place.

Posted by: jabe May 27 2008, 09:23 PM

Hey, what happened to the units?
I hope they post an updated weather graphic on the web site somewhere.. be neat to follow the data daily
jb
EDIT: Looks like they have added it too the http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/ and have one on the http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/default.asp as well.

Posted by: Sunspot May 27 2008, 09:25 PM

Is the next data relay likely to be about the same time as last nights?

Posted by: stevelu May 27 2008, 09:27 PM

oops

Just to keep the good ol' days with us in spirit, I will also (in addition to the machine conspiracy I unmasked above) suggest that it was the 'rabbit' from the Spirit landing site, on it's annual migration, which pushed that rock away from Phoenix at an angle.

OK, now that I've got that off my chest, I will stand down and assume a proper scientific attitude

Posted by: climber May 27 2008, 09:28 PM

...and we can see that one of the rovers already drove by Phoenix

Posted by: SpaceListener May 27 2008, 09:29 PM

it is a 10 kilometer (6 mile) diameter crater informally called "Heimdall"
That is an impressible picture and I thought that Phoenix was about to land inside
of crater but it was about 20 kilometer behind of the crater. Inside of crater is
covered by dioxide carbon or ice by its bright color.

REDIT: :Indeed yes it is much bigger if we compare ones' Victoria where Opportunity is living...

Posted by: climber May 27 2008, 09:31 PM

Question : is "Heimdall" already visible in the part of the pano we have or is it in the still missing part?

Posted by: The Singing Badger May 27 2008, 09:35 PM

Does anyone know where the name 'Heimdall' comes from?

Posted by: SpaceListener May 27 2008, 09:38 PM

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/PSP_008579_9020_descent.html

Posted by: hendric May 27 2008, 09:40 PM

OK, so after drooling over the Heimdall picture, I got to wondering, "Where's the ice?" Shouldn't we see some effect of the ice layers in the walls of that crater? It's ~12x as large as Victoria, btw.

Are those white specs on the right slope bits of ice?

Posted by: JRehling May 27 2008, 09:43 PM

One of the scoreboards for me is how many locations on the surface we've seen. Which is now, broadly speaking, at six, although the MERs expand that in a way that's hard to describe with integer math. I suppose you could say Spirit has given us two views -- from its landing site and from the hills -- and Opportunity has given us two -- from the plains and into craters -- and count it as eight.

Looking at my MER-based topographical globe, though, I note that all of our landing sites are in the blue and the green -- low altitude areas. And we know of the fascinating layered terrains in valleys and craters that have yet to be seen from the surface. I look at the rugged areas in the highlands and around Solis Planum and many others and wonder what those will look like from up close. Imagine if in terrestrial geology we'd only seen Ukraine, Kansas, and other places like that, while Utah, the Andes, the Himalaya, etc., were all unseen.

Posted by: elakdawalla May 27 2008, 09:50 PM

Tim, if you're reading this, can you report the exact lat/lon coordinates of the landing site? I tried to ask here in the press room and they got me someone to talk to who was telling me how important it was for this mission that they landed at an Alaska-like latitude rather than a Florida-like latitude Not quite the level of detail I was hoping for...

--Emily

Posted by: surreyguy May 27 2008, 09:50 PM

Wouldn't there be new layers, deposited since the crater formed, hiding whatever it revealed on impact?

Posted by: elakdawalla May 27 2008, 09:54 PM

A question for all: what's the scale on the HiRISE image of the landing site? They don't report it on their website. It can be calculated by measuring the lander -- was hoping I wouldn't have to take the time

--Emily

Posted by: climber May 27 2008, 10:12 PM

Regarding the HiRise picture of the back shell and parachute, it seams to me that the backsell hit the ground North of the actual position (dark patch) while the heat shield hit SW of the actual position. Could it means that the chutte (so, the wind) dragged the backsell to the actual position? Does anybody see the same?

Posted by: fredk May 27 2008, 10:16 PM

Thanks for this, marswiggle! Here's a "before and after" animated gif of the lander location, with only a quick and dirty attempt at rescaling/rotating the images to match:

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 10:17 PM

Emily, my calculations based on span of the solar arrays and known dimensions (5.5 m) give me a pixel scale of about 0.35-0.40 m/pix. It would help if someone could remember the distances reported at the press briefing to the parachute and heatshield.

Posted by: nilstycho May 27 2008, 10:18 PM

My chips are on... (Edit: Tim has my chips now.)

Posted by: Juramike May 27 2008, 10:26 PM

Thanks Fred! That really helps show the effect of the thrusters on the terrain. It looks like virgin unaltered surface (on the surface) is a little too far from the lander for the arm.

Also might expect that whatever we see in the very, very close vicinity of the lander had to survive the whoosh. So it should have a higher concentration of coarser grains, with the lighter dust settling on top of it (compared to virgin terrain).

-Mike

Posted by: Reed May 27 2008, 10:32 PM

It does look that way. My guess is that this due to horizontal motion as it hit (which might be due to wind), not dragging by wind after the fact.

On the communication issues:
Not mentioned in the press conference, but AFAIK Mars Express also has rely capability, as a backup backup

Posted by: JRehling May 27 2008, 10:38 PM

What makes me hopeful is that there's also such a big splash around the backshell. The boundary of the discoloration may signify the disturbance of a VERY thin and superficial layer of dust, which isn't what Phoenix means to study, anyway. So we may see that everything more than 1 cm down or so is still pretty virgin.

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 10:43 PM

And if the soil is somewhat sticky (e.g. similar to ordinary regolith), it may even be less than 1 cm. It could be that just the finest of dust grains were picked up by the exhaust. Any fine dust deeper in (immediately below the surface) would be shielded by larger grains.

Posted by: imipak May 27 2008, 10:43 PM

A probably-naive question(s): why would the effect of the thrusters be to darken, rather than lighten, the surface? Does it confirm there's little or no ice in the upper layer of more firmly consolidated regolith, immediately below the 10-20mm superficial dust on the surface, or is it just down to the grain size? (I believe very small thin films of ice on sand-sized grains don't necessarily lighten the appearance at HiRISE resolutions?)

Posted by: Juramike May 27 2008, 10:44 PM

There might also be a bit of sorting of the smaller pebbles and grains (visible on the surface).

You might be able to look further from the lander to determine the effect, but this will be confounded by the natural sorting that occurs on polygonal terrain.

Vertical mobility, dig it!

Posted by: ugordan May 27 2008, 10:45 PM

Imipak, I believe it's the same reason why dust devils leave dark streaks. Notice the backshell also has darker soil around it and it had no engines.

Posted by: imipak May 27 2008, 10:47 PM

Ah yes, of course - thanks!

Posted by: djellison May 27 2008, 10:56 PM

Surface
-----------
Fine Dust
-----------

Basaltic
Sandy
Soil

----------


Icey Soil


---------

Ice-T



Maybe....just guessing

Posted by: Juramike May 27 2008, 10:57 PM

False color image I made of the HiRISE Phoenix lander image:

Dark blue shows the extent of the thruster (or impact whump) effect.

-Mike

Posted by: volcanopele May 27 2008, 11:06 PM

Nice false color. Definitely suggests that the dark splotch around Phoenix is due to removal of the dust top layer rather than a chemical change.

Posted by: elakdawalla May 27 2008, 11:08 PM

I hope it's not

Surface
-----------
Fine Dust
-----------

Basaltic
Sandy
Soil

----------


Icy Soil


---------

Ice-9

!!

Posted by: Nix May 27 2008, 11:10 PM

I just tuned in after a very tiring day - but glad I still did -I never expected the parachute-shot to be THAT spectacular, and having always loved those oblique images, well.. I'm speechless.

Nico

Posted by: tim53 May 27 2008, 11:10 PM

Hi Emily:

I was told: 68.218830N 234.250778E, IAU 2000 Areocentric

I will update my map as soon as I figure out how to convert everything over to ArcMAP, so that I can incorporate the HiRISE images at full resolution for the whole map.

It looks like my career of finding landers before the orbiters can take pictures of them is over! ...but that's good, actually. Man, what a great camera!

Now, we can all start looking at the MPL search images with a little better idea of what a Phoenix-like lander looks like on the surface of Mars. But throw in a little more dust!

-Tim.

Posted by: glennwsmith May 27 2008, 11:12 PM

I know this is a little off-topic, but Dot.DK, I agree with you that the oblique Hirise image is quite dramatic, and I am also wondering if this experience with Phoenix will incite the Hirise team to take more such images. . .

Posted by: elakdawalla May 27 2008, 11:20 PM

Do you think it would be as dramatic without the parachute to give it a sense of scale? That was a once-in-a-lifetime shot.

--Emily

Posted by: 4th rock from the sun May 27 2008, 11:29 PM

Here's my identification of the hills visible in the SW horizon (colored green). My estimate of the lander location is also marked with a green dot. Not even pretending to be accurate, just trying to get oriented. It looks as the best part of the surface panorama is still to come, as the Heimdal crater walls should be on the opposite side (NE).

Also, I tried to match the Hirise view of the lander with the available overhead mosaics. Not the most beautiful thing but a nice match.

Posted by: tim53 May 27 2008, 11:43 PM

Yes, that's what I got as well.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed as to the visibility of Heimdal. There's a topographic rise just east of the landing site that might obscure it from view. I'm also anxious to see what the small "pedestal crater" to the WNW looks like. It's only 40 meters or so tall, but it's also less than 7 km away.

-Tim.

Posted by: tuvas May 28 2008, 12:10 AM

I think this might just be the first lander that Tim didn't find even from the HiRISE images. No, wait, that would be Opportunity, but that one was easy... The first one that was not positively known where it was might be more like it... Hmm...



I hope personally they do a repeat with MSL...

Posted by: Shaka May 28 2008, 12:12 AM

For sure it's unique, Emily, but imagine a cratered plain in summer strewn with dust devils.

Posted by: Tom Tamlyn May 28 2008, 12:52 AM

Interesting blog by a member of the Phoenix team, with details about the uhf radio problem.

http://spacenerd.blogspot.com/

Edit: it appears that he's a member of the MRO team at JPL, currently working on Phoenix comms.

Posted by: infocat13 May 28 2008, 01:21 AM

The Highrise folks are looking for a shadow cast on the crater wall by the parachute, maybe we can help find it

Posted by: um3k May 28 2008, 01:23 AM

New images I see?

Posted by: slinted May 28 2008, 01:54 AM

The RB and RC frames are only 256x256, but here's some rough color made simply by resizing them to fit the RA frame.

http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/ssi_index_0001_0020.html

Posted by: ahecht May 28 2008, 02:28 AM

It looks like tonight's pictures came via MRO, so it seems the UHF is working despite what Emily said.

From http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080527a.html

Posted by: bcory May 28 2008, 02:31 AM

PAGE NOT FOUND
The page you requested either doesn't exist anymore, or was moved.

Posted by: um3k May 28 2008, 02:34 AM

Here's the proper link: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080527a.html

Posted by: nilstycho May 28 2008, 02:35 AM

(See above.)

Posted by: alan May 28 2008, 02:37 AM

According to the caption the parachute is 20 km in front of the crater. At that distance a 12 m parachute will subtend 2 arc minutes, or roughly 10% of the diameter of the sun at Mars distance. I doubt there will be a shadow.

Posted by: tuvas May 28 2008, 02:40 AM

Not to mention the image is really noisy, finding a dark spot would be quite difficult...

Posted by: charborob May 28 2008, 02:53 AM

Phoenix landed at 68 degrees north latitude, that is 3 degrees north of the Martian arctic circle. Does that mean that Phoenix will see the midnight sun, or is summer too far advanced for that? As a matter of fact, what season is it exactly over there?

Posted by: Juramike May 28 2008, 03:31 AM

False color zoom of the area immediately around the Phoenix Mars lander:

Color http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/images/2008/details/cut/PSP_008591_2485_cut_e.jpg converted to grayscale, then converted to false color.

The area seems further disturbed than I thought, out to about 20 m. (Note absence of greenish-yellow zones in immediate lander area.)

In this image, the least basalt rock showing area seems to be at the 12 o'clock vector in this image.
The biggest basalt rock showing area (disturbed) area is right at the 11 o'clock vector in this image. Another basalty rock-showing area (trench?) is a parallel crease just off the 8 o'clock position in the image.

It'll be interesting to compare surface images taken from the lander at these locations.

-Mike

[EDIT: used the term "basalt rock showing area" to imply that the area has been modified and revealed a darker substrate. Some areas are darker than others and likely have more rocky grains showing rather than dust.]

Posted by: elakdawalla May 28 2008, 03:38 AM

Peter Smith said today the sun wouldn't set until August. To see the solar geometry, fiddle around with Mars24 (download from GISS website).

Good news that the UHF on MRO is working. It wasn't working as of the time that I got the last update in the press room.

Don't fret too much about the lost day. Remember that the rover teams planned to lose one of every three days -- I'm sure Phoenix' mission success schedule is similarly padded. It's a bummer a day was lost so early, but they'll be rocking and rolling before you know it.

--Emily

Posted by: nprev May 28 2008, 03:54 AM

Any word on what might've caused the UHF anomaly, Emily?

Posted by: hendric May 28 2008, 04:14 AM

Juramike,
Great pic. Does the general triangle-ness of the disturbed area align with the descent thrusters? As to why the disturbed area looks darker, I think what causes that is the small-scale features start out smooth, and as they are roughed up (or fine particles swept away), you see more shadows, causing the ground to look darker, but it isn't really darker, ie if you looked from close to the sun angle, the brightness would be close to the same.

My analogy is looking down at a piece of paper with the light coming at an angle from the side. Start with it flat, even slightly bent it will still be "bright". Now crumple it up and open it up again, and the shadows will make the paper look "darker" even though it hasn't changed. Would probably make a great YouTube video.

Posted by: bcory May 28 2008, 04:24 AM

Looks like the wind is blowing

http://fawkes3.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_584.jpg

Posted by: ahecht May 28 2008, 04:39 AM

--- quotes removed ---

I enhanced that image a bit to bring out the reflection in the mirror to show direction:

Posted by: lyford May 28 2008, 04:42 AM

So I am guessing that the team won't be on Mars time?

Posted by: nprev May 28 2008, 04:50 AM

You know, I swear I read that they were, and it is hard to imagine why. Presumably, the Sun is still skirting the horizon at "night" producing sunset conditions for a period, but still.

Posted by: ahecht May 28 2008, 04:55 AM

The sun doesn't set, but there is a "night" when the sun is too low to provide adequate power to the solar panels. The project team is actually on the opposite of Mars time -- they wake up in the Mars evening, receive the evening download of data, analyze the data and prepare the next day's commands during the Mars night, upload the new commands in the Mars morning, and sleep during the Mars day.

Posted by: Juramike May 28 2008, 05:03 AM

Got it!

Here is a coordinated graphic showing the most recent Polar surface mosaic (http://fawkes4.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_613.jpg) coordinated with the HiRISE image. I used the vectors to the backshell to line up the two images (using the Phoenix mosaic azimuth values).



The dark blue trenches in the false color image should be towards the 300 vector as seen in this view.

There is already an image acquired in this general direction and and yes, it is the terrain right behind the DVD!! (Link http://planetary.org/blog/article/00001467/ for a color composite)



The image is http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230579main_SS001EFF896308546_10D10RAM1.jpg. The upper left corner of the image shows the trench margin. If this is correct, more images should show more the of the gravelly, rocky trench stretching towards the horizon and more towards the 300 degree vector. This trench disappears behind the the western solar panel.

-Mike

Posted by: MarsEngineer May 28 2008, 05:09 AM

Hi folks,

I have to say that I really really appreciate this site and all of you.

Your words are right on SFJCody. The dance that the teams must choreograph with these orbiters and landers takes a lot of dedicated people, spread out in many locations (Pasadena, Tucson, Denver, Germany, San Deigo and even DC ... ) who take their work seriously and work long hours. But what makes it seem so amazing to those of us who do this, is that this work gives us a sense that these are not machines that are doing our bidding, but rather they are actual extensions of our being. Like a stunt pilot who becomes one with her aircraft, or a jazz musician who blends seamlessly into the horn and the band, these complex machines become a part of us and part of our spirit.

Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good. When my LMA friends, Wayne, Tim P and Tim G suggested that I seriously look into taking the Phoenix descent image, I had to push it. They were right on many levels. I am embarrassed to say that I never once looked into what we might see in the background as MRO/HiRISE scanned over the landing ellipse. We had the viewing geometry at our figure tips but we did not look. In fact we did not look at the wide shot with Heimdall in the background until late on Sol 1. I saw the image late yesterday and, like many people who see it the first time, I though it was a fake. A couple of minutes later I had it on my laptop in an email attachment from the HiRISE team. I had been so focused on whether the image would reveal sufficient parachute fault data (and earlier on whether it would result in a risk to MRO's UHF data collection during entry) that I failed to imagine the big picture. Maybe I couldn't.

SFJCody, your point about this image reminding us of the great scale of what is out there to explore is true. This image reminds me of the humility (and audacity) of what we are doing and how small we really are and how lucky I am to be able to do this work. These images take us places that may even be as poetic as scientific.

-Rob Manning (still Mars Program Chief Engineer)

Posted by: Astro0 May 28 2008, 05:24 AM

Windy Animation

Astro0

Posted by: ElkGroveDan May 28 2008, 05:25 AM

Thanks Rob for finding time for us in your busy schedule. I can't find the words to say how much awe we all hold you in. It's not just the ingenuity and genius that you have all been blessed with, but its also the drive to take chances and go out on a limb like you did personally with this image. I am reminded of the words of President Teddy Roosevelt:

Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

So please continue to dare to do those mighty things. That's what heroes are made of, and this week you and your team are our heroes!

Posted by: dvandorn May 28 2008, 05:48 AM

I'll second that, Dan.

Now Rob, don't get all overcome by modesty when we call you one of our heroes. Just promise that, when one or the other of us comes into town and you happen to have an evening free, you'll let us take you out for a beer.

-the other Doug

Posted by: Shaka May 28 2008, 05:56 AM

Either that or we've found water!

(Even better, Rob, You take US out for a beer!)

Posted by: ustrax May 28 2008, 08:09 AM

I'm frankly speechless (and that's difficult to happen...) beholding all this HiRISE stuff...
and that windy animation...

About HRSC images...Michel Denis told me that the images were indeed attempted but the result is very uncertain, it was also referred that the data is now all on ground, but he added that, if anything is in the images, by no way HRSC results can approach the exceptional image made by MRO HIRISE of the parachute and Phoenix.

Rob...can I hug you?

Posted by: ugordan May 28 2008, 09:34 AM

It says in the comments of the HiBlog entry for the parachute image that apparently the image was taken about 5 seconds after heat shield jettison. Now, here's a rough estimate of the distance of the heatshield to the lander using simulated data from the Phoenix EDL HUD animation:

At shield jettison the stack was moving at about 100 m/s (about 107 actually, but for the sake of simplicity...). 5 seconds later the lander was slowed down to around 85 m/s. Let's approximate the deceleration as linear so that gives 3 m/s*s and the distance travelled by the chute/lander stack is 460 m.
For the heat shield there are two simplest options to consider:

1) Neglecting further gravitational acceleration and air drag and propagating the 100 m/s velocity at separation gives 500 meters travel distance.
2) Applying a rough estimate of vertical gravitational acceleration to the heatshield. At separation it was roughly moving 45deg off vertical so H and V components of the speed are roughly equal at 75 meters/s. After 5 s the vertical velocity would be 93 m/s. Averaging the initial and final velocities gives (100+120)/2 = 110 m/s.

The distance between the aeroshell and heatshield after 5 seconds would then be somewhere in the range of (500-460) and (550-460) meters. That's 40 to 90 meters.

What's the point of all this? I'm suggesting the heatshield should be visible in that crater backdrop image as well, probably as a dark speck. I couldn't find the length of the parachute cords which to use as a yardstick in this oblique perspective (and probably foreshortened) view, but 100 meters looks comfortably within the HiRISE coverage judging by the pixel separation of backshell and parachute and assuming chute cord length of around 30 m.

Posted by: SFJCody May 28 2008, 09:41 AM

It feels pretty great to have my layman opinions on planetary exploration confirmed by the Mars Program Chief Engineer!

UMSF.com is like a fragment of the old days of the internet; full of knowledgeable, friendly people- professionals, enthusiasts and interested onlookers alike all sharing ideas and information.

Posted by: Ant103 May 28 2008, 09:59 AM

Hum, look like that Hirise team wil release full frame image of the EDL of Phoenix : http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_008579_9020

Posted by: ugordan May 28 2008, 10:27 AM

If you enter any number in the URL, it "opens" a page with that number so I'm thinking that's just a glitch with their web.

Posted by: Ant103 May 28 2008, 10:41 AM

Okay Gordan .

An other question : they don't have put the Sol2 pictures here : http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/raw/SSI/ssi_gallery_collection_archive_1.html but, they are visible on the index. Why?

Posted by: remcook May 28 2008, 10:47 AM

from the wind animation it seems the 'string' of the wind sensor is permanently bent... is that right?

Posted by: remcook May 28 2008, 11:07 AM

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/080527mroradio.html

" Data link between Phoenix and MRO restored"

Posted by: Josh Cryer May 28 2008, 11:39 AM

Hey guys, as you might know a lot of the color images that came down last night weren't full resolution, so they suffered a bit for it, but I played around a bit and with slinted's suggestions came up with these pretty images: http://picasaweb.google.com/joshcryer/MarsPhoenixLander/

Anyway, I just wanted to return some appreciation for all the hard work everyone in the enthusiast and professional community puts in. I'll be updating that album within a few minutes of them being uploaded on the site. I hope to improve my knowledge of this field considerably more!

Take care all.

PS I know the skies are wrong in my images, don't shoot me!

Posted by: Stu May 28 2008, 12:02 PM

Hey Josh,

Nice pics, looking forward to seeing what you do with the ones that follow.

BTW: welcome aboard! About time you were here!

Posted by: Ant103 May 28 2008, 12:43 PM

Wecome Josh nice pics you have made

Here is a try to making a colorization of the Hirise-EDL pic :
http://www.astrosurf.com/merimages/Upload/PSP_008579_9020_descent-colorisationV2.jpg

Posted by: tuvas May 28 2008, 01:52 PM

Actually, the team is on Mars time, I think it has to do with the MRO/Odyssey passes.

Posted by: tim53 May 28 2008, 01:53 PM

Actually, I found the Opportunity lander YEARS before HiRISE imaged it!

But it is true that MOC got it before I did. I had a very Eagle-like crater identified, but since we couldn't see much outside the crater, we didn't know it was Eagle until MOC imaged the site.



MARDI will be the first to image the MSL landing site, and I'm a team member!

Mars is cool.

-Tim.

Posted by: fredk May 28 2008, 02:45 PM

Thanks, I hadn't realized that was a mirror. I imagine it's an essentially fully reflective mirror. Since it gives us a tiny view of the near zenith sky, it shows very nicely how much darker the sky is overhead than near the horizon (metadata says image altitude is about 11 degrees). I'd also be interested in how the sky hue differs at zenith.

Posted by: ugordan May 28 2008, 02:52 PM

Not sure if you've seen this, but the first HiRISE observation (T+11h) is also up: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/phoenix-hardware_11.php

Regarding this: with low sun angles and exaggerated topography, is this what we should be looking for in MPL landing zone? Note Phoenix' backshell ended upside down as well. The only thing that consistently stands out is the parachute and if it's buried in dust over the years, well... The fact Phoenix landed at the edge of the 3-sigma ellipse doesn't help constrain things, either.

Posted by: bcory May 28 2008, 02:55 PM

Most excellent sir

Thanks for this

Posted by: Steve G May 28 2008, 02:55 PM

I noticed the "Canada" logo and the Canadian flag. Cool, eh? Long overdue that we're on Mars!

Posted by: bcory May 28 2008, 03:08 PM

Ever notice that this area of Mars's terrain looks alot like our Devon island in our far north.

Posted by: ustrax May 28 2008, 03:21 PM

First images and now...
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMAWQ1YUFF_0.html

Posted by: TheChemist May 28 2008, 03:26 PM

If you want to listen to a suitable soundtrack while viewing those breathtaking images of Phoenix from HiRise :

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMAWQ1YUFF_index_0.html

from ESA's Mars Express Lander Communication system (MELACOM)

Not images, but still interesting ...

Edit : I just noticed Rui beat me to it .. Well... Ultreya !

Posted by: ustrax May 28 2008, 03:32 PM

Ultreya to you too!
I must be fair I already knew that was going to be posted so I was just waiting for the stuff to come out...

Posted by: remcook May 28 2008, 03:39 PM

from the ESA link:

"Unfortunately, the science observations carried out during the descent did not lead to the anticipated results. "

no fireball then...?

Posted by: Steve G May 28 2008, 03:46 PM

Never been that far North . . . I was at the Canadian Space Agency in St. Hubert as part as a Mars Society event and we heard both Canadian Scout proposals just before they were awarded. Very interesting! I guess that makes Canada's flag # 3 on Mars, (and second photographed since the Soviets never returned any imiagery other than static)

Posted by: tim53 May 28 2008, 03:49 PM

Good questions.

I've been thinking a lot about this since the HiRISE images of PHX came down. It's particularly interesting to note that the first HiRISE image of the lander, taken around 3am local time, doesn't show the backshell as an obvious feature at all.

It's going to hurt a lot, but I plan on looking over every single mother's son of those HiRISE images of the MPL search site (and probably the Beagle II coverage so far as well) to be sure I didn't miss it the first time around. Groan!


-Tim.

Posted by: Norm Hartnett May 28 2008, 03:55 PM

Taken with the lack of an expected LOS due to plasma I'm wondering is there was something interesting going on in the upper atmoshere? The review by the EDL team should be educational.

Posted by: Norm Hartnett May 28 2008, 03:59 PM

NASAWatch noted that too. With photographic support!

http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2008/05/deja_vu_on_mars.html

Posted by: elakdawalla May 28 2008, 04:38 PM

That sound recording made from the Mars Express tracking data is nifty, but I don't understand the way that the signal's frequency is shifting. The caption to the signal animation reads

What I see in the animation is:
- at about 342 sec a spike appears at between 7 and 8 KHz.
- the spike moves to lower frequencies over time.
- shortly before 700 sec it reaches its lowest frequency, less than 1 KHz.
- then the spike moves to the right.
- The spike disappears at 1085 seconds, I guess with landing.

I don't understand why the frequency goes down, then up again. I would have assumed that the frequency would be highest at the beginning, with Mars Express approaching Phoenix, then when it passes its closest approach the frequency would have suddenly shifted down, as Mars Express draws away. Can someone explain to me why the frequency changes as it does?

--Emily

Posted by: nprev May 28 2008, 04:41 PM

Shooting from the hip here, a combination of Doppler shift and differential rates of data transmission? Would make more sense if this is frequency-shift keyed.

Posted by: Tom Tamlyn May 28 2008, 04:44 PM

Eric Hand from Nature is http://blogs.nature.com/news/blog/events/nasa_phoenix_landing/. It's thoughtful, well written, and a good reference to give to people who want an informed account but may not have the patience for reading the enthusiast sites.

TTT

Posted by: tuvas May 28 2008, 05:08 PM

Tim, you sure are motivated... Even when I was looking for MGS, I could barely stand to look at the images in 2x2 binned format... And that was only 1 image... Not to mention no background except the black of space...

Posted by: stewjack May 28 2008, 05:44 PM

ALERT

Wednesday's Mars Phoenix Lander Briefing starting 2 p.m. EDT
That's about 15 minutes from now! I am posting this at about 1:45 EDT

2 p.m. - Mars Phoenix Lander Briefing - JPL/Tucson (Public and Media Channels)

NASA TV on the http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html

http://www.nasa.gov/ram/55643main_NASATV_Audio_Only.ram

http://www.nasa.gov/qtl/151335main_NASA_TV_QT.qtl

Jack

Posted by: um3k May 28 2008, 05:52 PM

Here's a higher bitrate WMV stream of NASA TV: http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368163

It looks decent enough to display on my 56" HDTV!

Posted by: MahFL May 28 2008, 06:27 PM

That was a quick press conference. What happened ?

Posted by: djellison May 28 2008, 06:28 PM

virtually no one had questions!!