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Posted by: ynyralmaen Jan 9 2007, 11:31 PM

I know that BBC viewers aren't too keen on the corporation's news reports after yesterday's dark matter story, but this interesting item appeared this evening...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6246513.stm

I can't find any related press releases on the PPARC and BNSC sites. Has anyone else more information?

Posted by: Bob Shaw Jan 9 2007, 11:38 PM

It sounds like a bid for work from Martin Sweeting, no more, no less. SSTL is a great success at what it does, but historically there has been zero commitment towards the type of missions he's suggesting. And, frankly, with a notional budget which is some small proportion of JAXA's far-too-miserable funding I doubt if it'd be a goer.


Bob Shaw

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jan 9 2007, 11:48 PM

They need to send John Cleese. Imagine what the Minister of Silly Walks could accomplish on the moon!

Posted by: djellison Jan 10 2007, 12:02 AM

I like SSTL - met some of their guys in Valencia. They actually put a commercial off the shelf hard drive on a satellite and it works great - they just built a hard housing for it so it felt 'at home'. Far cheaper than coming up with that sort of storage capacity in solid state space qualified....quite cunning.. Of course, it could always crash etc.

And I must admit - I do like the romantic notion of another venture to gather support, much like Beagle 2 did, for space exploration in general in the UK

But I don't see this one coming to fruition - even if for only £100M ( which, in the grand scheme of things, isn't much). The problem is, you can't spend £100M in this country without the Guardian telling you how many hospital wards it would build, the Mail telling you how many more police it could train and the Express telling you how many illegal immigrants it could return home.

Doug

Posted by: marsbug Jan 10 2007, 12:46 AM

All very true but I'm going to cross my fingers and hope a little anyway.

Posted by: ollopa Jan 10 2007, 01:50 AM

Doug: Your countryman James Larkin, who is a great hero in my country, declared - The great appear great because we are on our knees: Let us rise.

Posted by: nprev Jan 10 2007, 04:05 AM

From a global/sociological perspective, this proposal is very interesting. The article explicitly mentioned the fact that several other countries are contemplating lunar UMSF, so I personally think that this mission has a better than average chance of happening.

It really does look like there's a quiet new Moon race building up steam, and that's a good thing!

Posted by: Stu Jan 10 2007, 08:23 AM

Just to clarify, the BBC's internet science reporting is very rarely less than excellent - the SciTech news site is one of my daily calls./ It's the TV news coverage that is starting to make The Clangers look like an episode of COSMOS...

Posted by: ynyralmaen Jan 10 2007, 02:03 PM

I fully agree. I actually saw the report on the 10 o'clock news before spotting the internet report though; the broadcast version was better handled than the dark matter story (not too difficult to achieve!), but the simulation of the lander that they put together made the thing looks bigger than the Isle of Wight. The broadcast version is of course available on-line at top-right of the internet story.

PPARC now have a press release putting the story in context: ESA and BNSC are hosting a workshop on Europe's long-term solar system exploration strategy...
http://www.pparc.ac.uk/Nw/prSpace.asp

Posted by: ynyralmaen Jan 11 2007, 09:03 AM

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article2144063.ece on this topic, in the Independent.

Posted by: djellison Jan 11 2007, 09:07 AM

Ahh - the Independant wouldn't let this one go probably without telling us how many theatres it could build...

I jest - all the press coverage to date has been comparatively positive to the idea.

Doug

Posted by: ynyralmaen Jan 11 2007, 02:27 PM

The Guardian's http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1987409,00.html...

... and not a hospital ward in sight! Wahey!

Posted by: BrianJ Jan 15 2007, 04:59 PM

The MOONlite mission looks remarkably similar to JAXA's Lunar-A (lunar penetrators/seismology) - I was wondering if it would be a UK/JAXA collaboration, or if they intended to use Lunar-A's lunar penetrators(if Lunar-A is cancelled)?

Posted by: edstrick Jan 16 2007, 11:57 AM

Most people don't remember that Lunar-A was going to carry *3*, not 2, penetrators before the mission got into trouble years ago now. You really do need 3 seismometers to accurately and unambiguously locate a seismic event. They had to drop one penetrator due to battery weight gain and stuff on the orbiter.

Posted by: spdf Jan 16 2007, 03:52 PM

Thats another reason to get a better orbiter.

A question: did Europe active develope penetrators so far (means build models and test them, like JAXA did in Mexico) or "just" concept studies?

Europe does need another moon mission and cannot leave moon exploration to others.

Posted by: edstrick Jan 17 2007, 09:33 AM

Closest Europe's gotten to a penetrator was Beagle 2.

>ducks and hides!<

Posted by: NMRguy Dec 15 2007, 10:29 PM

Well, MoonLITE is back in the news on BBC. I must say that I always grin when I hear about a UK-sponsored space project. The UK has more than enough industry, science, and inginuity but space science has never been a major focus. Their last one was very exciting proposal--a real budget "ride along" trying to take some wind out of the MER's sails. It just needed a few more pounds in the project, I guess.

Anyway, back to MoonLITE. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7143197.stm, NASA is apparently "very likely to support plans to send a British probe to the Moon" with a hopeful launch date in 2012. NASA should ask the UK space community to carry out a detailed feasibility study by the end of the summer. The proposal still uses multiple (4) penetrators with a simple relay orbiter. "These would quite literally enable scientists to scratch below the lunar surface. These would hit the Moon at extremely high speeds, about 300m/s (1080km/h) and penetrate to a depth of two metres. Once embedded in the surface, instruments in the penetrators would listen out for 'Moonquakes'." Another story can be found http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/12/07/220148/uk-moonlite-mission-to-cost-205-million.html as well as a more official http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/planetary/missions/DGLR07_PPARC_lunar_study.pdf.

I think the MoonLITE proposal builds off a lot of the Lunar-A ideas, but it will not be a direct collaboration. The only possible partners with MoonLITE at the moment are NASA and the Indian Space Agency, but no one is officially on board. I did find something about the possible Russian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna-Glob mission reusing two of the Lunar-A penetrators in addition to ten of their own. We'll see where all of this this goes.

Posted by: djellison Dec 15 2007, 11:47 PM

And meanwhile :
http://chrislintott.net/2007/12/11/stfcs-plans/
http://www.scitech.ac.uk/About/Strat/Council/STFC_DelPlan.aspx

Seems odd to be proposing a lunar mission when big cuts are underway.

Doug

Posted by: Phil Stooke Dec 17 2007, 02:39 AM

Big cuts for pure science, big bucks - I mean pounds - for engineering?

Phi

Posted by: djellison Dec 17 2007, 08:35 AM

In this field - they're one and the same - STFC is where the funding for such a thing would come from ( Science and Technology Funding Council - although I remember it as Swindon Town Football Club, as the offices are in Swindon) I would have thought. There might be other pathways from other sources, but I can't see them being sufficiently large for a project like this.

Doug

Posted by: mps Dec 17 2007, 10:36 AM

I would like to see it launched in 2011 on the same EELV as GRAIL. The total launch mass of MoonLITE is about 846 kg. Compare it with 834 kg total wet mass of LCROSS Sheperd Spacecraft.

Posted by: simonbp Dec 31 2007, 08:50 PM

Actually, that's not that bad of an idea, as it make it politically harder to kill either mission (though there's little chance GRAIL will be canceled). Problem is, you have to get funded first before worrying about getting canceled...

Also, considering the nightmares the Japanese had with their lunar penetrators, I wonder just how successful MoonLite would be...

Simon

Posted by: PhilCo126 Apr 9 2008, 05:09 PM

Nice article in the April 2008 issue of TheSkyAtNight magazine "Britain's Moon Shot "pages 36 - 41
with comments by Sir Martin Sweeting & Prof Alan Smith

Posted by: ngunn Jun 6 2008, 05:59 PM

http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?sa=t&ct=uk/0-0&fp=4849c4fb46934310&ei=Z3dJSJn_Fo--wwH21oGMBA&url=http%3A//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7438270.stm&cid=0&usg=AFrqEzcCIxet9RLXeISvjbWScEFKePjzMw
Here's one for the Brits:

Me an me Mam an me Dad an me Gran
are off to clock the moon
Me an me Mam an me Dad an me Gran
and a rocket of MoonLITE

Hit the moon (stomp stomp)
Hit the moon (stomp stomp)
Hit the moon, hit the moon DAA DAA

Posted by: nprev Jun 6 2008, 06:59 PM

Okay, I'm jealous. Not only do you guys get to hit the Moon, but you got a pub song for it! Can't get anybody to sing anything except bad karaoke in the US, dammit...

Posted by: djellison Jun 6 2008, 07:49 PM

The music goes like this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T1pXsJp_go

And I think...I THINK... Colin Pillinger is in the video somewhere. I might be wrong on that one.

Doug

Posted by: ngunn Jun 6 2008, 07:58 PM

Then there's that immortal line

Can I introduce you please to a lump of cheddar cheese

('cept its really Wensleydale)

Posted by: Stu Jun 6 2008, 08:00 PM

1998?!?!?!??!?!??! O.... M..... G.....!!!! Is it really ten years since I was on my feet singing "Vindaloo" in the pub in front of a huge TV screen, wrapped up in a St George flag and crunching my way through my tenth packet of Scampi Fries?!?!?!

Happy days....

(I know, I know, you're seeing me in a whole new light now, eh? )

Posted by: imipak Jun 6 2008, 09:09 PM

Here's http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7438270.stm with some video of impactor tests. Whooooosh... CLONG!!

Hmmm.

Posted by: SFJCody Jun 6 2008, 09:29 PM

I'm worried for two reasons:

1) Penetrators are high risk landers and Moonlite will only carry four. Hitting a rock= goodbye data return.

2) Luna-Glob will launch first, carry more penetrators (both Japanese and Russian designs) and may well steal Moonlite's thunder

Posted by: ngunn Jun 6 2008, 09:46 PM

1/ Only four - now let me see - that would be 'Me', 'Mam', 'Dad' and 'Gran'.

2/ I'm not worried. The more the merrier, and the more designs the better too. I hope they cooperate on the global distribution to maximise the geophysics payoff.

Posted by: elakdawalla Dec 8 2008, 10:20 PM

MoonLITE has been given the go-ahead for Phase A technical study. We're looking at a 2014 launch at present, it seems.

http://www.scitech.ac.uk/PMC/PRel/STFC/MoonLite1108A.aspx

Here's a recent article from Astronomy & Geophysics about the science.
http://zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~iac/AG_MoonLITE_article.pdf

--Emily

Posted by: djellison Dec 14 2008, 11:09 PM

I got to see one of the test articles at the UCL RPIF today (thanks Pete!)

Smaller than I was expecting - but far less damaged than I was expecting.

Two of the test-electroncis modules were there as well - one a battery pack, one an electronics pack - all set hard in an Epoxy.

Not the best Photos, maybe Ted got some better.

Posted by: PhilCo126 Dec 15 2008, 09:11 AM

Thanks for sharing those photos Doug... what's the diameter of that penetrator?

Posted by: Paolo Jan 5 2009, 09:11 AM

Interesting... I was wondering: what happens if one of the electronic components fails? Do they need to change the whole epoxy block? This is quite likely going to cause lengthy delays during final preparation and launch...

Posted by: Paolo Jan 5 2009, 09:18 AM

... I am going to be banned...

Why post this, and yet STILL post the comments that you know are about a banned subject. They've been deleted. Final Warning. - ADMIN

Posted by: djellison Jan 5 2009, 09:54 AM

What if ANY component on a near complete spacecraft fails? It's a huge job. At least with this design, you can simply drop in a replacement block rather than go in with a soldering iron. Modularizing the whole thing is actually, I would have thought, a good thing.

Posted by: Paolo Jan 5 2009, 10:08 AM

Yes of course, I only think it will be a bit awkward to change a whole block on the completed spacecraft instead of changing an electronics board or something like that. But of course there is probably no other simple way of doing that

Posted by: Paolo Sep 14 2009, 05:39 PM

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/09/11/332186/cash-shortage-freezes-uk-moon-mission.html too bad

Posted by: djellison Sep 14 2009, 05:47 PM

BNSC and STFC are really not in my good books right now.