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Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ Cometary and Asteroid Missions _ Hayabusa Post-Landing & Science Results

Posted by: nprev Jun 17 2010, 02:41 AM

The capsule began its return to Japan http://twitter.com/Hayabusa_JAXA as I write this. Seems like a good time to start a new topic for the much-anticipated final results of this epic mission.

Posted by: Hungry4info Jun 17 2010, 04:23 AM

Here's for hoping the capsule does indeed contain a piece of Itokawa! smile.gif

Posted by: nprev Jun 17 2010, 12:41 PM

Perhaps this is unduly optimistic, but I think that it's relatively hard for it not to have at least a trace of dust inside at some point in the ingestion path.

Haven't seen any discussion about or references to the possible electrostatic condition of the spacecraft with respect to Itokawa but there must have been some potential, of course, and probably a bit of dust was raised during the landings.

Posted by: eoincampbell Jun 17 2010, 08:56 PM

The team are confident. Is that the end of the sampling horn(and the craft) had a slight motion while parked or just the disturbance from the landing impact?

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 19 2010, 09:26 AM

QUOTE (Hungry4info @ Jun 17 2010, 01:23 PM) *
Here's for hoping the capsule does indeed contain a piece of Itokawa! smile.gif



The capsule was X-rayed today with a resolution of 1 mm. This is from the local press here. Unfortunately, there was no grain of that size. However, the lid had been found to be frmly closed.

Oh well, we have got NASA's going out in November this year. I dearly hope that will succeed this time.

Pandaneko

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 19 2010, 07:00 PM

Do you have a link for that information Pandaneko?

Posted by: djellison Jun 19 2010, 07:14 PM

Plus, What's the November reference? The EPOXI Hartley 2 flyby?

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 20 2010, 08:44 AM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jun 20 2010, 04:00 AM) *
Do you have a link for that information Pandaneko?



No, I do not. It was reported in the Asahi Simbun (newspaper) yesterday. There was an additional comment there (which I did not translate), I think, from somebody within JAXA, that they had not expected to find such large grains to be there in the first place.

They were apparently looking for something like 0.5 mm grains to be found in the capsule. Are not they too small for analysis? The X-ray resolution did not reach that scale and so we will have to see what they may do next.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 20 2010, 08:54 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 20 2010, 04:14 AM) *
Plus, What's the November reference? The EPOXI Hartley 2 flyby?



Here, I do not, either. It is information I found during the last one month in search for more info about Hayabusa, somewhere out on the net that NASA was going to launch a SRM in November this year. I was excited when I saw it. I hope that they will!

By the way, what do you guys think? I have since found some more stories about the last stage of Hayabusa, from people who was assinged to take the last Earth photo, for instance and other people, too, and I found them interesting and am willing to translate.

However, I am not exactly sure if I should do it over here at this forum or inside the previous long viewing forum.

I mus hasten to add that I am not 100% sure if I will be able to find them again. I think they were somewhere inside JAXA site.

Pandaneko

Posted by: nprev Jun 20 2010, 10:22 AM

Pandaneko, I'm not aware of any approved NASA sample return missions. Your source may have been referring to the http://discoverynewfrontiers.nasa.gov/news/New%20Frontiers/2009/news_123009.html proposal, which is one of three finalists for the next New Frontiers mission.

I'm not sure when the final selection will be made, but even if it makes the cut I doubt it will fly much before 2014 or so.

EDIT: Whups. I should read the whole article before posting. The final selection will be made in mid-2011, and the chosen project has to launch by 30 Dec 2018.

EDIT2: This http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201006180454.html (dated 19 Jun) from Asahi Shimbun does mention that JAXA was going to X-ray the capsule to 'look for internal damage'. Might be a translation difficulty, or the <1 mm constraint on upper particle size might have been an ancilliary finding.

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 20 2010, 02:59 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 20 2010, 07:22 PM) *
Pandaneko, I'm not aware of any approved NASA sample return missions. Your source may have been referring to the http://discoverynewfrontiers.nasa.gov/news/New%20Frontiers/2009/news_123009.html proposal, which is one of three finalists for the next New Frontiers mission.

I'm not sure when the final selection will be made, but even if it makes the cut I doubt it will fly much before 2014 or so.

EDIT: Whups. I should read the whole article before posting. The final selection will be made in mid-2011, and the chosen project has to launch by 30 Dec 2018.

EDIT2: This http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201006180454.html (dated 19 Jun) from Asahi Shimbun does mention that JAXA was going to X-ray the capsule to 'look for internal damage'. Might be a translation difficulty, or the <1 mm constraint on upper particle size might have been an ancilliary finding.


I feel very sad to know that NASA may not make it while I am alive..., if this were right.

Anyway, let your wife see what follows.

http://www.asahi.com/special/space/TKY201006180486.html

I did try to find the physical newspaper with that article, but I could not find it. My wife might have disposed of it with other papers by now. So, I tried the Asahi website.

It does say what I posted, but I cannnot find JAXA comments with it. Perhaps, web versions may be shortened?

What I think happened may be something like this. They wanted to check out on the damage, as soon as possible, that might have been done to the capsule and that probably did not need high resolution.

And yet, they at the same time wanted to have a quick look in with that low resolution X-ray (I would do that!) before full investigation.

Liquid washing might be the most conclusive option..., not sure...

Pandaneko




Posted by: djellison Jun 20 2010, 03:18 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 20 2010, 02:22 AM) *
Pandaneko, I'm not aware of any approved NASA sample return missions.


That's because right now, there isn't one. I think the November reference may well have been a lost-in-translation cross-over between proposed missions, and the EPOXI flyby.


Posted by: nprev Jun 20 2010, 07:01 PM

Here's a Bing translation of the Ashai article you linked to, Pandaneko:

"Capsule from asteroid "Itokawa" spacecraft "Peregrine" brought to Earth, including big sand 1 mm or more is that they are not 18, was confirmed. Aerospace development agency but x-ray study internal situation. Be included in such as 1 mm following dust have been left yet.
 Japan Agency facilities located in Tokyo, Chofu City carried capsules taken inside the x-ray. Confirmed that vessel to reclaim Itokawa sand lid is firmly closed. It is said that there was no such sand particles on the other hand, resolution photos of 1 mm to change such as.
 Was the plan to collect debris scattered and fired small bullet when you land on Itokawa Hayabusa,. That might include dust soared in the shock of landing at the bullet firing failed, but entered the capsule and expectations."


My wife's interpretation was that the X-rays should have been able to resolve any particles larger than 1 mm. Also, it's confirmed that the sampling pellet did not fire. sad.gif

Posted by: vjkane Jun 20 2010, 08:01 PM

Here is a link to the late Bruce Moomaw's description of the proposed OSIRIS-ReX mission http://futureplanets.blogspot.com/search/label/Osiris-Rex%20Asteroid%20Proposal

Posted by: nprev Jun 22 2010, 03:57 AM

Short http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/asd/2010/06/21/15.xml&headline=Hayabusa%20Capsule%20Apparently%20In%20Good%20Condition article today. Highlight: It may take up to six months to determine if the capsule contains any material from Itokawa.

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 22 2010, 08:33 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 22 2010, 12:57 PM) *
Short http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/asd/2010/06/21/15.xml&headline=Hayabusa%20Capsule%20Apparently%20In%20Good%20Condition article today. Highlight: It may take up to six months to determine if the capsule contains any material from Itokawa.


The Asahi Shimun newspaper carried an article today. Gists of what it said are as follows.

1. JAXA had placed equal priorities on finding the capsule and the heat shield.
2. Neither NASA nor ESA had been willing to discuss details of heat shields for potential millitary uses.
3. The capsule was found 1.1 km away from the targeted landing position and the heat shield 5 km away from it.

4. The ablator material was found to have been evenly melted and enough thickess of it still existed.
5. Initial investigation did not find partciles larger than 1 mm, and their minimum expectation is 0.003 mm.
6. Innner container (sampling container) was extracted and showered by shots of dry ice and then plasma cleaned so that a thin layer was removed.

7. The inner container will be brought into a clean room and tilted so that a rubber spatuler can scrape out (seems rather primitive to me) what may be inside. What are found will be treated with a thin needle with static electricity under microscope.
8. If there are lots of them then they will know immediately that they are from Itokawa. However, if there are only a few,
9. It will take up to 6 months to determine that they are not of Earth origin.

10. Samples, if any are found, will be distributed to 10 universities across the world.


This last one, it differes from the info I got earlier. Mt earlier info said "best proposals from worldover". Who is telling the truth...

Pandaneko

Posted by: djellison Jun 22 2010, 01:17 PM

Points 2 is heading toward the area of rule 1.2. Point 10 doesn't contradict the previous statement. You can send samples to leading research institutions around the world writing the best proposals, and 10 best proposals can get samples.

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=boardrules is probably worth reading.

Posted by: ilbasso Jun 22 2010, 07:47 PM

Point 3, the distance from target, is absolutely incredible. We have come a loooooong way from the 1960's, when some manned spacecraft, coming down from only 100 miles up, were hundreds of miles off target. Even a few days before re-entry of Hayabusa, I wasn't 100% comfortable that she would make it into the re-entry corridor. It's amazing enough that she found her way back to Earth, even more astounding that she landed in her nest!

Posted by: nprev Jun 22 2010, 10:07 PM

Well said. The landing precision is especially impressive considering that the spacecraft's reaction control system was inoperative...just incredible, really.

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 23 2010, 08:09 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 22 2010, 10:17 PM) *
Points 2 is heading toward the area of rule 1.2. Point 10 doesn't contradict the previous statement. You can send samples to leading research institutions around the world writing the best proposals, and 10 best proposals can get samples.

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=boardrules is probably worth reading.



Dear Administrater

I offer my sincere apologies. I was not aware of those rules. I should have! However, I did read them all, in fact, twice over and am in complete agreenment with what I read. I will abide by them with my future postings.

However, I am feeling a little uneasy about politics, rule 1.2. If I myself were trying to talk politics as my personal opinion I should be immediately given a red card. I know that.

However, I was simply translating an openly available newspaper article, not my opinion, is that why you say "approaching"? I should think so. In any case I will be extremely careful in future. Again, with my sincere apologies.

Pandaneko

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 23 2010, 02:41 PM

You're OK pandaneko.

To clarify, the ban on politics is not limited to just your opinion but anything that moves the discussion in that direction. I'm sure you can see why. Someone else may jump in with a response and then the discussion starts down the wrong road.

Thanks again for all of your reports from Japan and translations.

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 24 2010, 09:02 AM


Dear administrators

Thanks, I am relieved and I will be careful. You must be leading very busy lives, watching over all those postings...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 24 2010, 09:13 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jun 22 2010, 05:33 PM) *
The Asahi Shimun newspaper carried an article today. Gists of what it said are as follows.

6. Innner container (sampling container) was extracted and showered by shots of dry ice and then plasma cleaned so that a thin outer layer was removed.

7. The inner container will be brought into a clean room and tilted so that a rubber spatuler can scrape out (seems rather primitive to me) what may be inside. What are found will be treated with a thin needle with static electricity under microscope.

Pandaneko



I have had a look at JAXA English web pages prior to this posting and there is not this one yet carried.

The inner container was being opened today (24 June, JST) at ISAS in the presence of NASA and other overseas scientists. It will take one week to find out what may be inside the container.

I cannot wait to hear what they have to say! What was it like when the Earth was born! [please review section 1.3 - Admin wink.gif ]

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 25 2010, 09:41 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jun 24 2010, 06:13 PM) *
I cannot wait to hear what they have to say! What was it like when the Earth was born! [please review section 1.3 - Admin wink.gif ]

Pandaneko



OK, understood, reference to that sort of things either, not even as a joke. It is a bit difficult for me to make judgements about what I could post now as I would have thought that everybody would think that references to organic materials can easily lead to such jokes. My strong impression is that you wanted to further clarify to me just how rules are meant to be used for judgements in the strictest sense.

(I am not supposed to use such a word, here even in response, that is my understanding...). However, seriously, I think your attitude must be absolutely right, after I have given my very deepest thought to this reason. That is, logically, so, apologies once again!

There was a reference to organic materials in the same article I quoted and I must admit that it is my ignorance about such materials. I just did not think that there could possibly be organic materials on such a tiny body like Itokawa in near vacuum out in deep space in such cold temperatures.

That is why I just ignored to translate that bit, perhaps I should have ...

I should imagine, though, that a lot of other lay people may have such an association and connection, on hearing about the possibility of organic materials, i.e. commmon viewers to your forum. And, they may well like light jokes..., occasionally, am not sure...

To me, being a physicist, organic materials simply means things like beef stake, eggs, fish and the like!

I also think in terms of the real possibility of my joke sparkling off an endless discussions of the sort you fear. Given the seriousness of the forum I myself would think that there is very little chance. However, you must have had your own past dealings of that sort and I respect your ultimate judgement.

Anyway, I am likely to make similar mistakes in future. So, what follows is my last contribution and I hope that you will keep me as a watching member, if you could, please? If not, I will not be complaining, though. I came here just accidentally, after all...

Today's Asahi Shimbun newspaper here, with local circulation of about 8 million, I believe (the largest daily circulation here is by another local newspaper group and it is 15 million, I think) carried an artcicle about the sample container (25 June, JST).

The container did have a very small amount of gas in it and it was recovered. As far as I have checked out so far, there is no reporting about it yet on JAXA pages, either in Japanese or English.

They think that most of it is of Earth origin upon landing and constituents are yet unknown. However, there is a possibility that some portion of it may have come from Itokawa grains and they are very carefully checking the gas.

Pandaneko

Posted by: Juramike Jun 25 2010, 02:44 PM

QUOTE
...organic materials on such a tiny body like Itokawa in near vacuum out in deep space in such cold temperatures.


The definition of "organic molecules" are molecules with covalent bonds with carbon-carbon or carbon-nitrogen or carbon-hydrogen bonds.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound</a>)

This definition excludes things like: CO, CO2, carbonate (anion), -CN (anion). These are all considered inorganic.

Small organics include little things like: H2CO, CH4, and HCN. I'd also throw in that reactive intermediates such as: .C2. (diradical), .:CH (radical carbene), :CH2 (carbene) and .CH3 (radical) are all organic and will undergo organic reactions.

[Bonus trivia: Things with organic bonds but covalently bound to a metal center are considered organometallic. Most of the chemistry fun these undergo is based on the properties of the metal center. An example is ferrocene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocene]

It is really important to keep in mind that most organic molecules can be easily accessed by non-biotic organic chemistry. (Biochemistry is a subset of organic chemistry.)

****

There was a very recent discovery of a "pretty complex" organic molecule in deep space - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthracene. Check out:
http://www.physorg.com/news196334906.html

Finding organics on Itokawa is not weird at all, but which compounds and how much will give interesting information on the chemistry of asteroids, solar system objects, and molecular exchanges with deep space. (Isotope ratios will be very useful.)
It will be exciting to see the analysis results. Keep us posted!

Posted by: Hungry4info Jun 25 2010, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jun 25 2010, 04:41 AM) *
To me, being a physicist, organic materials simply means things like beef stake, eggs, fish and the like!


Organic materials in this case would mean carbon-carrying compounds. Methane, ethane, acetylene, etc. Pretty much all the interesting stuff at Titan.

Posted by: pandaneko Jun 26 2010, 09:40 AM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jun 23 2010, 11:41 PM) *
You're OK pandaneko.

To clarify, the ban on politics is not limited to just your opinion but anything that moves the discussion in that direction. I'm sure you can see why. Someone else may jump in with a response and then the discussion starts down the wrong road.

Thanks again for all of your reports from Japan and translations.



Thanks once again, and I am choosing my wordings carefully here as best as I could, as I do not seem to have a means of direct response except using this exchange. I may have done it accidentally in the recent past, but I seem unable to repeat it, somehow...

No!, I was not! Not at all. On the contrary I was just simply blaming myself about the slip of my pen and tongue about it and at the same time regretting my stupidity.

Rules are rules to be adhered to and I clearly violated them without thinking too much about that particular phrase, without thinking about its possible repercussions.

The only way I thought I could make sure that it will not happen again was that I should not to take up my pen again in the first place, but, yes, I will if I get new useful info from the local press. JAXA pages seem to lag by up to a week or longer for the latest findings. They must be very busy. All my sympahy goes to them!

Again, with my deepest apologies for the confusion I must have caused to the regular running of the forum.

Pandaneko




Posted by: pandaneko Jun 27 2010, 08:29 AM

QUOTE (Juramike @ Jun 25 2010, 11:44 PM) *
It will be exciting to see the analysis results. Keep us posted!


A little more detailed info about the gas detection is as follows. This is from another local newspaper, Mainichi, date, am not sure, but after detection, of course.

The gas was found on 22 June during the preparatory opening of the container's outershell and it was recovered. The container is made up of inner and outer cylinders, diam. 5 cm and height 6 cm.

The tube had been designed to be exposed directly to vacuum while travelling in deep space and there are apparently 3 possibilities about the gas.

1. Itokawa origin, 2. air on landing, 3. the gas coming from resins and metals of the spacecraft itself

From now on the inner tube will be disassembled carefully and it is expected to be able to observe the inside some time during early part of July.

Even if something is found in there the possibility still remains of it being of Earth origin and careful analysis will be undertaken over the following few months.

What follows is the URL of the analysis team working on it.

http://mainichi.jp/select/science/news/images/20100625dd0phj000014000p_size6.jpg

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 4 2010, 02:24 PM

What follows is based on my Google alert and it has picked up a rather old newspaper article dated 24 June. I must say I am confused a little about all these newspaper reportings. Dates of finding the gas are different, one says 22 June and others say 24 June...

Anyway, this particular article says that it will take about a week (from 24 June) before the inside of the sample tube can be seen and if grains are found, then analysis will start in August. (Why not during July?)

Today is 4 July, but there has not been any news about anything as far as I am aware. Perhaps they have found something?, and not wanting to make a firm announcement just yet? I am totally in the dark...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 4 2010, 11:25 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 4 2010, 11:24 PM) *
Today is 4 July, but there has not been any news about anything as far as I am aware. Perhaps they have found something?, and not wanting to make a firm announcement just yet? I am totally in the dark...

Pandaneko



Today's Asahi Shimbun newspaper here says that Hayabusa sample cannister was found to have grains in it. They are going to examine them one by one under microscope.

No more details available yet.

Pandaneko

Posted by: brellis Jul 4 2010, 11:56 PM

That's very exciting news! thanks pandaneko. By the way, IIRC neko means "cat", so does that make you Panda Cat? smile.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 12:01 AM

QUOTE (brellis @ Jul 5 2010, 08:56 AM) *
That's very exciting news! thanks pandaneko. By the way, IIRC neko means "cat", so does that make you Panda Cat? smile.gif


Yes, it does and I am a cat fanatic and I had one looking just like that.

Pandaneko

Posted by: nprev Jul 5 2010, 12:04 AM

Wow!!! Exciting news indeed; thanks very much, Pandaneko!!!

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 01:23 AM

Apparently, initial measures they are taking are isotopic and crystalline structural analys for distinguishing them.

Pandaneko

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 5 2010, 01:39 AM

If this turns out to be true and those are asteroid grains and not part of the capsule or a technician's fingernail, then this will be a most amazing end to the most amazing journey that I have ever followed.

Posted by: nprev Jul 5 2010, 01:53 AM

We can only hope. "Epic" is the only word, really.

Posted by: tasp Jul 5 2010, 01:59 AM

Amazing news!

Hayabusa, the little spacecraft that could, and DID!

I really appreciate the excellent updates we are getting here. Front row seat for a very wonderful mission.


Did anyone see the capsule recovery picture in Aviation Week and Space Technology? The technician had quite a bit of protective gear on to safe the pyros. Incredible accuracy in the landing, I am not sure I could have found that little capsule in my own yard, let alone the wilds of Australia!

(yeah, we are having a wet year and I am behind on my mowing)

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 02:23 AM

I had a quick look at JAXA web pages, no, none ablout this and the last update is still 24 June.

Since there are two NASA scientists and one Australian scientist at ISAS at the moment they must have sent mails to respective organisations and it might be quicker to find something there.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 02:37 AM

I had a quick look at all other major newspapers and they all carry this story.

One thing that annoyed me was in the Yomiuri Shimbun article about it. It said that the cannister is thought to have hundreds of Earth origin particles in the first place. How then the Asahi and others carry such stories?

Are the grains different at a glance? Did they check the inside of the cannister before launch for distinguishing them from possible new comers?

Still, Asahi carried this news on their front page, so there must be something...

Pandaneko

Posted by: JimOberg Jul 5 2010, 04:37 AM

Post moved from Hayabusa Return to Earth thread - Admin

Jiji: Particles Found From Japanese Asteroid Probe Capsule

Tokyo Jiji Press in English 0401 GMT 05 July 2010

Tokyo, July 5 (Jiji Press) -- Japan's space agency said Monday it has found particles inside the capsule that the unmanned spacecraft Hayabusa brought back after a journey to the asteroid Itokawa.

The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, better known as JAXA, made the confirmation by optical microscopy. The particles could be the first samples brought back to Earth from an asteroid.

JAXA said it will analyze elements constituting the particles to see if they are from Itokawa or Earth. Officials said it is possible the particles may be those that had made their way into the capsule before Hayabusa was launched.

Hayabusa returned to Earth on June 13 Japan time after seven years of voyage.

Its body burned up during its reentry into the atmosphere but the capsule safely landed on the desert in southern Australia.

The capsule was later recovered and sent to Japan. On June 24, JAXA stared work to open the capsule at its special facility in Sagamihara, Kanagawa Prefecture, eastern Japan.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 05:32 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 5 2010, 11:37 AM) *
One thing that annoyed me was in the Yomiuri Shimbun article about it. It said that the cannister is thought to have hundreds of Earth origin particles in the first place. How then the Asahi and others carry such stories?


Pandaneko


I have had another look at this morning's Asahi newspaper. It does not say at all that they found "hundreds of grains". In fact, the whole thing seems contradictory given my earlier findings.

1. Prof M Yoshikawa of ISAS said that if there are many grains found in the cannister they will immediately know that they are of Itokawa origin.

2. If as Yomiuri says "hundreds of Earth grains" are supposed be be in there in the first place they would have found them on inspection and Prof Yoshikawa would have announced that they are from Itokawa despite the fact that they are from Earth.

3. Asahi said that they found a very small number of very small grains.

So, my impression is that they did find a small number of suspicious grains, after all. That is my guess. After all, they must have baked it and rinsed with highly volatile liquid. There cannot possibly be hundreds of grains still left in it before launch...

Pandaneko


Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 08:53 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 5 2010, 02:32 PM) *
3. Asahi Shimbun newspaper said that they found a very small number of very small grains.

Pandaneko


I have had a look at an article carried by the Nihon Keizai Shimbun about grains found. It is an equivalent to the Financial Times in the UK. It does mention the possibility of co-existing grains, but it does not mention "hundreds of grains" found in there.

What it said is that the found grains are individually transfered into separate bottles, by a needle as thin as those used for inserting genes into biological cells, for better analysis.

It says that the analysis will take more than a month. I hope that my continued postings will not get a red card one of these days. If I am putting up too much by now I would like to be given a warning...

Pandaneko

Posted by: Hungry4info Jul 5 2010, 10:41 AM

pandaneko, you're doing fine.

In fact, thank you sooo very much for keeping us informed. I, and surely others, appreciate your efforts here.

Posted by: ustrax Jul 5 2010, 11:57 AM

man...if this is true the question here is...who's going to have Hayabusa's role in the epic?

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 01:52 PM

I am a bit more upset. Even more alarming news, this time from NHK, which is something like BBC in the UK.

There are two bits of information.

1. Date and timing: 06:02 local 5 July

Not just hundreds but up to 10,000 Earth grains may have resided in the cannister in the first place before launch, given the storage condition of the capsule before launch! (How silly of them!)

Still, no mention of 10,000 found in there.

2. Date and timing: 19:15 local 5 July

They found 2 grains of about 1/100 mm in size on the inside surface of the cannister and they were recovered.

I am no longer sure what is going on...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 02:42 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 5 2010, 10:52 PM) *
2. Date and timing: 19:15 local 5 July

They found 2 grains of about 1/100 mm in size on the inside surface of the cannister and they were recovered.

Pandaneko



Something I neglected, in my haste to translate the main (?) points about the inside surface is that they also found a dozen 1 mm sized grains on the outer surface of the cannister. They were even visible by naked eyes.

I just wonder where they came from... Woomera?

Pandaneko


Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 03:04 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 5 2010, 11:42 PM) *
Something I neglected, in my haste to translate the main (?) points about the inside surface is that they also found a dozen 1 mm sized grains on the outer surface of the cannister. They were even visible by naked eyes.

I just wonder where they came from... Woomera?

Pandaneko


Here again, I am totally at a loss. My understanding is that the cannister, at least the outer cannister surface was bombarded with dry ice particles and then plasma treated to remove its thin outer layer.

My assumption then was that the inner tube was in tact. So, why did they find visible particles on the outer skin of the inner tube? Can anybody help?

Pandaneko


Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 5 2010, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 5 2010, 06:52 AM) *
10,000 Earth grains may have resided in the cannister in the first place before launch, given the storage condition of the capsule before launch! (How silly of them!)

So I am wondering WHERE they stored it. Outside the JAXA building in the flower beds? The beach? I am amazed that they didn't do a microscope analysis like the one planned for post-flight, prior to launch!

Posted by: Stu Jul 5 2010, 04:06 PM

Sorry, my fault; it rolled under my sofa while I was looking after it. I thought I'd got it clean, but apparently not... laugh.gif

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 5 2010, 04:19 PM

The part where they lost the lid and decided to cover it with duct tape like you do when you lose the battery cover to your TV remote control probably had something to do with it.

Posted by: eoincampbell Jul 5 2010, 08:47 PM

I hope we can get an official statement soon... the suspense is driving me "super-nuts"....

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 5 2010, 11:57 PM

QUOTE (eoincampbell @ Jul 6 2010, 05:47 AM) *
I hope we can get an official statement soon... the suspense is driving me "super-nuts"....


Did we know that there were two chambers inside the cannister? I am angry the way they provide info only bit by bit.

Anyway, this morning's Asahi Shimbun newspaper carried another article about the grains, even with a photo with the needle and the grain (I looked for the photo link, but I could not get it anywhere, even with other newspapers).

It said basically the same thing, except the existence of two chambers. So far, only one of them has been opened and "so far, two 0.01 mm size grains have been picked up". This "so far" may mean some more grains. That was the nuance of the article.

Those found on the outer skin are supposed be of Earth origin.

In any event Prof Kawaguchi said he was glad the cannister was not empty. I am not happy the way info is provided. I have not yet checked JAXA pages.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 6 2010, 02:20 AM

QUOTE (eoincampbell @ Jul 6 2010, 05:47 AM) *
I hope we can get an official statement soon... the suspense is driving me "super-nuts"....


A little more information.

1. JAXA Japanese website now carries an announcement about grain discovery, but it is so short and offers very little beyond newspaper reports. No info yet on English page site.

2. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/zoom/20100705-OYT9I00953.htm

This is the photo from Nihon Keizai newspaper. Dark line is the needle shadow.

3. The same newspaper quoted Prof Kawaguchi's comment and it says he thinks those found on the outer skin (a dozen or so larger grains visible to naked eyes) and inside have equal probability of coming from Itokawa.

I am utterly confused now. Only yesterday newspaper reports were saying that the larger ones are supposed to be of Earth origin...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 6 2010, 02:23 AM


2. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/zoom/20100705-OYT9I00953.htm

This is the photo from Nihon Keizai newspaper. Dark line is the needle shadow.

Admin, please delete this portion for copyright reasons.

Pandaneko

Posted by: nprev Jul 6 2010, 02:39 AM

Pandaneko, don't be too distressed. In English-speaking countries at least, we're quite used to media confusion & inaccuracy in scientific matters. (This appears to be rather common in other non-English Western countries as well from what I gather).

It's therefore perhaps not too surprising that you may be seeing something similar in the mass Japanese media outlets concerning Hayabusa's findings.

Personally, I would have been surprised if the researchers had assumed that all exterior particles (within the reentry capsule but outside the sample container) were of terrestrial origin. After prolonged contact with Itokawa, it seems quite possible that a few dust particles from the asteroid might adhere to the capsule.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 6 2010, 03:23 AM

Let's not forget that a significant number of Itokawa particles surely rained down over Australia as Hayabusa burned up. Too bad we couldn't have captured the entire craft. But I'll still stand up and cheer for one small grain.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 6 2010, 09:03 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Jul 6 2010, 11:39 AM) *
Personally, I would have been surprised if the researchers had assumed that all exterior particles (within the reentry capsule but outside the sample container) were of terrestrial origin. After prolonged contact with Itokawa, it seems quite possible that a few dust particles from the asteroid might adhere to the capsule.


I quite agree with you, actually. My gut feeling now is that all of the grains so far found are from Itokawa, because

1. Post-landing cleaning of the cannister, I cannot imagine that they did not do similar cleaning before launch.

2. The capsule came down by parachute. It must have been a gentle landing.

3. All newspaper reports so far say that all the sealings were found closed when the whole thing was brought into the curation room. How can Earth origin particles, no matter how small, could have got into the sealed system.

How exactly sealed, I do not know, of course. I had not even thought about the mechanism because I never thought it will come back.

4. I was not there to witness the landing on Itokawa, but from the CG I did see an extremely violent reverse shower due to retro firing and the escape velocity out there must be extremely small. On Earth, can you imagine 1 mm size particles, somehow, wiggling into the sealed system against gravity?

5. Can you also imagine that the team, when assembling the capsule, did not notice naked-eye visible grains on the outer surface of the inner tube? It is only a small tube, after all. And, you knew how small Itokawa grains could be when captured into the inner tube.

Pandaneko






Posted by: Leither Jul 6 2010, 12:19 PM

BBC web page now showing JAXA picture of particles inside the container.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10519895.stm

No doubt they are being ultra cautious as to their origin, but.......

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 6 2010, 12:30 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Jul 6 2010, 11:39 AM) *
Pandaneko, don't be too distressed. In English-speaking countries at least, we're quite used to media confusion & inaccuracy in scientific matters. (This appears to be rather common in other non-English Western countries as well from what I gather).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB43JKnTo8Y

Above is the link to a press conference that took place on 5 July. No sound from the panell.

The announcer here is saying two things.

1. 0.01 mm grains were found inside the tube.

2. 1 mm size grains, about a dozen of them, were found on the outside of the inner tube.

3. One of the captions says that serious investigations will start from end of September.

By the way, other earlier newspaper reports said that investigations ( and in fact sample distribution) will start earlier, in August.

At this conference they were apparently saying that 1 mm grains are thought to have come from Earth. However, that was yesterday (5 July), and between this press briefing and this morning (6 July) Prof Kawaguchi must have mentioned to Nihon Keizai Shimbun newspaper, at least, that

he thinks that both inner and outter grains have equal probability of originating from Itokawa. That is my logical thinking by the look of the article carried by the same newspaper this morning (6 July).

Why prof Kawaguchi did not mention it at this briefing in the first place, I do not know. Perhaps, other press people except Nihon Keizai had left the venue earlier than Nihon Keizai reporters?

I really wish that they would send one of the 1 mm grains to NASA and see what they have to say before they go into summer vacation period...

Pandaneko




Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 6 2010, 01:06 PM

Here's the [Google translated] link to the source of those images on the JAXA website: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/j/topics/topics/2010/0705.shtml&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhhuMR8nBQHP19ycneaWy8vvX1fi1Q

Posted by: MahFL Jul 6 2010, 02:08 PM

Those grains look too big to have been missed before launch, most of the capsule appears to be squeaky clean, with a few dust grains in there collected as it landed, well lets hope for the best. smile.gif

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 6 2010, 02:16 PM

I agree. I am growing optimistic now.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 6 2010, 03:47 PM

QUOTE (MahFL @ Jul 6 2010, 11:08 PM) *
Those grains look too big to have been missed before launch, smile.gif


My association with ISAS profs has been long. What they unanimously told me is this. What one space and astronomy researcher can do during his research life time, at the maximum, is two projects, or even less, given the conception period and subsequent development stages.

I have known a few people (both Japanese and overseas on collaboratibve projects) whose projects were simply busted, either from mulfunctioning boosters, or subsequent failures.

That is why people take utmost care before launch. Therefore, I do not believe for a moment that there were those Earth originated grains before launch on the cannister.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 7 2010, 10:17 AM

Futher reporting from the Mainichi newspaper here, dated 18:54 local 7 July.

Apparently, a very large number of grains, much smaller than those (0.01 mm) earlier reported about were found inside the inner tube surface.

They apparently scraped the inner surface of the inner tube with a spatuler and found those. No more details are available, just yet.

Pandaneko

Posted by: Stu Jul 7 2010, 11:15 AM

Sorry, for a moment there I actually thought you said that the techs and scientists involved in this amazing mission, involving mega hi-tech space hardware and minute quantities of literally priceless proto-planetary material, "scraped the inner surface of the inner tube with a spatula".

laugh.gif laugh.gif

ohmy.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 7 2010, 12:20 PM

QUOTE (Stu @ Jul 7 2010, 08:15 PM) *
"scraped the inner surface of the inner tube with a spatula".

laugh.gif laugh.gif

ohmy.gif


I quite agree with you here. But, that is what the newspaer said and even my earlier posting about the recovery process expected also mentioned it, in fact with my own comment at that time "how primitive it is!". I think that was a few weeks back now, after landing, of course.

However, at that time I also mentioned liquid washing at the same time for recovery of remaining grains not recovered by the spatula.

It must be a spatula of special type? I do not know.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 7 2010, 01:26 PM

Other newspapers are starting to carry similar stories about the large number of grains newly found inside the inner tube.

The Yomiuri newspaper, for instance, says that the size of the newly found grains is from 0.01 mm down to 0.001 mm. There are apparently lots of them. It also said that they used a special spatula for the recovery of these newly found grains.

However, it also said that they think that there were a large number of Earth origin grains already resident in the first place inside the tube.

They failed to purge them before launch?, why? I am utterly at a loss.

Pandaneko

Posted by: amezz Jul 7 2010, 01:49 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 7 2010, 05:26 PM) *
Other newspapers...

Dear Pandaneko I'll very appreciate direct urls to quoted newspapers here

thanks, Andrey

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 7 2010, 01:56 PM

One assumes it was a very special spatula. Presumably they bought it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XbCWmY0eqY.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 7 2010, 02:25 PM

QUOTE (Stu @ Jul 7 2010, 04:15 AM) *
"scraped the inner surface of the inner tube with a spatula".

This just in: Japanese Scientists have announced that the asteroid Itokawa is made of mint frosting.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 7 2010, 02:34 PM

QUOTE (amezz @ Jul 7 2010, 10:49 PM) *
Dear Pandaneko I'll very appreciate direct urls to quoted newspapers here

thanks, Andrey


Dear Andrey

What I have been quoting from are all in Japanese. Would those URLs helP? For instance, here below is the Yomiuri's URL.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/science/news/20100707-OYT1T00919.htm?from=main1

Please let me know what you think. We can work out solutions, perhaps?

Pandaneko

Posted by: AndyG Jul 7 2010, 03:03 PM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Jul 7 2010, 02:56 PM) *
One assumes it was a very special spatula. Presumably they bought it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XbCWmY0eqY.


There's nowhere else I'd go for mine. laugh.gif

Andy

(Now, how to get Conan the Librarian into a thread??)

Don't bother ... Doug

Posted by: djellison Jul 7 2010, 03:06 PM

Who wrote 'Don't bother ... Doug'

It sure as he'll wasn't me.

Posted by: tasp Jul 7 2010, 03:09 PM

IIRC, during daylight hours on the earth's moon there is a phenomena that levitates dust (is there a thread here somewhere about it?). Are these Itakowa particles in the same size range and perhaps a similar phenomena got them into the collection device even though the pyro thing did not fire ?


Posted by: Hungry4info Jul 7 2010, 03:21 PM

Good question. IIRC, the haze on the moon isn't really visible unless you're coming around the terminator from the night side looking toward the day side (or on the night side near the terminator like that one Surveyor). I don't think Hayabusa ever got to this orientation, so we may not have any evidence for such things.

Another thing to consider, would the dust achieve escape velocity? Itokawa may have lost the dust with which it did that long ago. What is left may only be small rocks and pebbles that were heavy enough not to levitate (and/or leave). IIRC, the Musea Sea up closed showed more a collection of pebbles than a pure fine sand.

Posted by: Ipparchus Jul 7 2010, 03:21 PM

I saw that photo of the sample container and I can`t understand something... They said they found, at first, only 2 minute dust particles, but this photo shows many much larger dust grains(?). Are they really dust grains or something else? Please explain me, because I`m a little confused...

 

Posted by: MaDeR Jul 7 2010, 04:32 PM

Nothing like suspense IN SPACE! Do these grains are really from Itokawa? Or Itokawa is made of Australia? Inquiring mind want to know!

Posted by: Leither Jul 7 2010, 09:51 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 7 2010, 02:26 PM) *
Other newspapers are starting to carry similar stories about the large number of grains newly found inside the inner tube.


I do hope this is correct! The sample return canister consists of two compartments, one for each landing attempt, with the compartments being sealed from each other by a cylindrical sleeve valve.

I think the recently released picture shows the top outer surface of the canister sitting embedded in the return capsule, the visible particles being the 10 or so large particles they found on the outside of the canister.

What I am hoping is that the two 0.01mm grains were found in the first of the two compartments (the one open on the first/aborted landing attempt) and that the large number of newly found grains comes from the second compartment (which would be the one open during) the 30 min landing. If the newly found grains come from the first compartment...I dare to think what they’ll find in the second one!!

I’m now growing more optimistic....lets hope for the best.

Posted by: mars loon Jul 7 2010, 11:36 PM

The finding of dust inside is very exciting and a hopeful sign. But we'll have to await detailed scientific analysis to determine their origin. A great achievement whatever the outcome.

for anyone interested; here are my articles posted at Spaceref on the dust finding and landing

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1412

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1402

ken

http://www.rittenhouseastronomicalsociety.org/Dr.Kremer/K.htm

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 8 2010, 12:02 AM

According to today's Asahi Shimbun newspaper (8 July) the spatula in question is made of fluorine resin.

Pandaneko

Posted by: Stu Jul 8 2010, 05:21 AM

Pandanenko,

Just wanted to say thanks for the excellent job you're doing, keeping all of us here updated with Hayabusa's rather confusing developments. You're doing a cracking job. We probably wouldn't have anything much to go on if it wasn't for you, so thanks. smile.gif

Posted by: eoincampbell Jul 8 2010, 05:57 AM

Pandaneko has provided a wonderfully gripping tale of anxiety and hope...
thank you so much...

Posted by: brellis Jul 8 2010, 07:18 AM

thanks for everything you're doing to help, Panda Cat! smile.gif

Posted by: amezz Jul 8 2010, 07:19 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 7 2010, 06:34 PM) *
...quoting from are all in Japanese. Would those URLs helP?

Certainly, I read by Google + general imagination smile.gif


Posted by: pandaneko Jul 8 2010, 08:46 AM

I am feeling duty bound to share the exitement, really, because JAXA web pages tend to be so slow in updates. I am well aware that there are people out there who want to have minute to minute information.

I will be replying to Andrey (?) from Russia separately with direct links to Japanese newspapers carried in English. I had never thought about them. Other people from now on can refer to them and I will no longer need to translate.

They will be the Japan Times, the Asahi Evening News, and a few others, I think. Anyway, there is a bit more news that I found tofday (8 July). I do not remember where from. It was picked up my Google setup.

JAXA found yet more than 100 of 10 micron size grains inside the chamber A, which was kept open for the second landing. At least a few of them are being sent out to NASA right now, and one each to other academic institutions.

All other major Japanese newspapers today carried similar stories about these newly found 100 or so grains. From what they say I am inclined to think at least some people within JAXA now think that some of them did come from Itokawa.

Pandaneko


Posted by: pandaneko Jul 8 2010, 09:33 AM

QUOTE (Leither @ Jul 8 2010, 06:51 AM) *
What I am hoping is that the two 0.01mm grains were found in the first of the two compartments (the one open on the first/aborted landing attempt) and that the large number of newly found grains comes from the second compartment (which would be the one open during) the 30 min landing.
I’m now growing more optimistic....lets hope for the best.


Apparently, it is not true. 0.01 mm grains were found in the second chamber. Those larger ones were not found in the chamber at all, but outside them.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 8 2010, 09:40 AM

QUOTE (Ipparchus @ Jul 8 2010, 12:21 AM) *
I saw that photo of the sample container and I can`t understand something... They said they found, at first, only 2 minute dust particles, but this photo shows many much larger dust grains(?). Are they really dust grains or something else? Please explain me, because I`m a little confused...


I agree with you entirely. There is something I have been having a nagging thought about. If I remember rightly JAXA said that there no grains larger than 1 mm in size from their X-ray initial analysis.

That was the first news I came across in the Asahi Shimbun newspaper.

My nagging thoughts are;

1. Those on the phot seems mauch larger than 1 mm.

2. The Asahi yesterday (7 July) did talk about the 10 or so particles found outside the chambers of being a few mm in size. I, of course, thought that it was a simple mistake when I saw the article, but I am no longer sure...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 8 2010, 10:17 AM

QUOTE (amezz @ Jul 7 2010, 10:49 PM) *
Dear Pandaneko I'll very appreciate direct urls to quoted newspapers here

thanks, Andrey



Dear Andrey

Here below you find URLs for Japanese newspapers carried in English. Best.

https://club.japantimes.co.jp/pm/ad/jt/index_e.html
(This above is no good as you need to pay)


http://www.asahi.com/english/

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/freetop.aspx

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 8 2010, 11:01 AM

Here below is the URL to what one newspaper reporter said in his blog about the press conference of 5 July, I think.

It is too long for translation, but it does carry much clearer photos towards the end. Put in a nutshell, what they are saying at this press conference is that they are being very cautious, without prejidice...

For your information;

1. The bolt size you see on the picture is M3.

2. Microscope maginification is 100.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 8 2010, 12:05 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 8 2010, 08:01 PM) *
Here below is the URL to what one newspaper reporter said in his blog about the press conference of 5 July, I think.


Apologies

Here it is.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/pepani/e/a2b32aec75dd20aa0b8212d3520cf990

Pandaneko

Posted by: stevesliva Jul 8 2010, 02:41 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 8 2010, 04:46 AM) *
JAXA found yet more than 100 of 10 micron size grains inside the chamber A, which was kept open for the second landing. At least a few of them are being sent out to NASA right now, and one each to other academic institutions.

All other major Japanese newspapers today carried similar stories about these newly found 100 or so grains. From what they say I am inclined to think at least some people within JAXA now think that some of them did come from Itokawa.


This sounds like fantastic news!

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 8 2010, 04:11 PM

I got this news just before falling asleep.

Apparently, JAXA has since found more than 1,000 grains, perhaps inside the chamber A. Chamber B has not been opened yet.

I want to hear what NASA has to say, really...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 9 2010, 12:43 PM

I am getting a bit weary of uploading my stuff one after another, but this thought might be of interest.

The capsule had been kept in class 100,000 environment, both in the clearn room at ISAS and at the assembly site pre-launch. Given the volume of the cannister (or one half of it) my back of envelope calculation tells me that potentially there can be as many as 20,000 of 5 micron size terrestrial particles in there.

However, we have not heard anything of that kind so far. Therefore, I am convinced that they purged them before launch and rotated the rotating door so that any more terrestrial particles would not get in.

If they can rotate the shutter door at Itokawa (We know they did) they must also have done it in flight in deep space while they still had enough electrical power, because we know that the collection chamber(s) were exposed to vaccum in flight. They must have opened the door before closing it again at Itokawa.

So, once again I think they came from Itokawa...

Pandaneko

Posted by: Stu Jul 9 2010, 12:50 PM

Don't feel weary; you're our window on this mission's developments right now. We're all reading.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 9 2010, 02:44 PM

Yes, Thanks again pandaneko. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=100653248&l=950d9c4055&id=1206088214 thanks you too as he waits for his morning coffee.

Posted by: fredk Jul 9 2010, 03:22 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 9 2010, 01:43 PM) *
The capsule had been kept in class 100,000 environment... potentially there can be as many as 20,000 of 5 micron size terrestrial particles in there.

How did you do this calculation? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleanroom#US_FED_STD_209E_Cleanroom_Standards class 100 000 means 700 particles 5 microns or larger in a volume of 1 cubic foot (US FED STD 209E), or 29 300 per cubic metre (ISO 14644-1). Isn't the cannister volume much less then a cubic metre?

Posted by: Drkskywxlt Jul 9 2010, 03:26 PM

How much science can they realistically get out of this one small particle? No doubt they'll do a thorough investigation under a microscope, but then aren't they left with just blasting it in a mass spec and figuring out what it's made of? Is there anything else they can really do with such a small sample?


Posted by: Hungry4info Jul 9 2010, 03:40 PM

I read that even if one grain was found, it could be cut into pieces, sent all over the world for study, and a variety of tests done on it. From what I understood, one grain would have been a treasure trove all by itself.

Posted by: Drkskywxlt Jul 9 2010, 03:47 PM

QUOTE (Hungry4info @ Jul 9 2010, 11:40 AM) *
I read that even if one grain was found, it could be cut into pieces, sent all over the world for study, and a variety of tests done on it. From what I understood, one grain would have been a treasure trove all by itself.


I guess that's my real question...how much can you divide such an incredibly small sample? And does dividing it so many times bring diminishing returns? This isn't like a rock brought back by Apollo.

Posted by: Juramike Jul 9 2010, 04:38 PM

Even for just running a mass spect sample, there are a whole slew of mass spectrometry experiments that can be run. Each can give you different levels of information.

direct injection MS
HRMS
GCMS (gas chromatography on front end)
MS-MS
Fourier Transform Ion Cyclotron Mass spectrometry

and probably a whole bunch of new mass spectrometry techniques that haven't been mainstreamed yet.

I don't know how they would divide the grain, but I bet there are a lot of instrumentation labs that would love to analyze even a tiny bit.
And each technique might find new information.


Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 9 2010, 05:00 PM

The Stardust mission is showing what can be done with very small samples. We don't need the old Apollo 'football-sized rocks' any more.

Phil

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 9 2010, 07:29 PM

What Phil said. Just look at http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2010/lpsc2010download.shtml (PDF format, 4.5 MB) to see what kinds of detailed analyses can be done with tiny particles -- and those particles are ones that were spewed out of a comet's plumes and subsequently smashed at many km/s into aerogel. Hayabusa's particles were acquired in a much more gentle fashion, so will potentially be easier to interpret (or, at least, can be expected to look more similar to what they looked like when they were on the asteroid.)

Posted by: Leither Jul 9 2010, 10:33 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 9 2010, 01:43 PM) *
If they can rotate the shutter door at Itokawa (We know they did) they must also have done it in flight in deep space while they still had enough electrical power, because we know that the collection chamber(s) were exposed to vaccum in flight. They must have opened the door before closing it again at Itokawa.


Not necessarily so. The design of the return container’s sleeve closure mechanism is such that only one chamber can be open at a time. At launch one chamber (A or B ) of the container was open - from a reliability point of view this makes perfect sense just encase the container closure mechanism doesn’t work. Imagine the frustration of going all the way to Itokawa only to find you can’t open the container, much better that it’s open at the start of the mission - one less thing to go wrong. However the disadvantage of having the chamber open at launch is the possibility that something could get into it, either at launch or on the way (cosmic dust). Which is why they collected launch site dust so as to eliminate it; also I think one of the scientists at the press conference said the particles don’t look like cosmic dust.

After the first aborted landing attempt, the sleeve mechanism would have rotated 120 degrees sealing the first chamber and opening the second chamber. This second chamber would not have been open at launch and would have been “clean”. After the 30 min landing the sleeve mechanism then would have rotated another 120 degrees and so both chambers would be then sealed. The sample container was then slid it the re-entry capsule for return to earth. It’s possible any particles still in the collection horn could have been dragged in behind the container as it was pushed into the capsule and these might (fingers-crossed) be the origin of particles they found on the outside of the container - or they could be terrestrial.

Let's wait and see what they find in the second chamber!!! Fingers and toes crossed!!!

The more I find out about this mission, it's design and the methodical way they are analysing the results, the more impressed I am.

Posted by: Drkskywxlt Jul 10 2010, 12:17 AM

Oh, I know you don't need kilograms of anything, Phil. But, I still think what they're getting out of Hayabusa is much less than Stardust. Just trying to get a sense of how many ways you can slice and dice micro(?)grams of something and still get something useful at the end.

Thanks for the link, Emily.

Posted by: nprev Jul 10 2010, 12:24 AM

Belated thanks to Pandaneko; you're our window on Hayabusa, man, please keep it coming! smile.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 10 2010, 08:34 AM

QUOTE (fredk @ Jul 10 2010, 12:22 AM) *
How did you do this calculation? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleanroom#US_FED_STD_209E_Cleanroom_Standards class 100 000 means 700 particles 5 microns or larger in a volume of 1 cubic foot (US FED STD 209E), or 29 300 per cubic metre (ISO 14644-1). Isn't the cannister volume much less then a cubic metre?


My apologies. I seem to be apologising all the time... I must have been drunk. My calculation was entirely wrong, partly because of the conversion (an excuse!). I am now glad that you gave me the metric number. I did my calculation again and again and I now find the statistically probable number of particles to be found in one of the chambers is down to 3.45.

The sample cannister is a cylinder, 5 cm in diameter and 6 cm in height as I remember it and it has two chambers.

All this makes me think because they are now saying that there are more than 1,000 grains found in the chamber.

I still have a burning question, though. Only a few days ago they were struggling with two particles in there. How can they possibly find more than 1,000 grains all of a sudden? Photographs and image processing?

I have now decided to translate the press conference held on 5 July. It seems an integral part of this Hayabusa saga. I think I will do this in 10 or dozen bits so that admin do not get upset about its single volume.

I think almost 100% of information so far uploaded originated from that press conference. One advantage to me is that other people can interpret what they said there so that might solve a few of my questions that I still have...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 10 2010, 08:43 AM

QUOTE (Leither @ Jul 10 2010, 07:33 AM) *
This second chamber would not have been open at launch and would have been “clean”.
Let's wait and see what they find in the second chamber!!! Fingers and toes crossed!!!


I am very glad to have this information. I have no detailed knowledge of the sample cannister. The second chamber could have been clean down to about 3 or 4 grains? I now just wonder which of the two chambers they are looking into. Thanks, anyway!!!

Pandaneko

Posted by: Stu Jul 10 2010, 08:47 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 10 2010, 09:34 AM) *
I have now decided to translate the press conference held on 5 July. It seems an integral part of this Hayabusa saga. I think I will do this in 10 or dozen bits so that admin do not get upset about its single volume.


Pan, if this is really concerning you - and it's good of you to be so considerate, by the way! - you might like to consider starting up a blog, to enable you to write longer posts and then direct us to them? There are lots of great, free blog sites (I use and swear by Wordpress) and I find my blog absolutely invaluable for writing quite (stop laughing, everyone!) long posts about Mars-related subjects, often illustrated with very big images, which I can then just point people here towards rather than post huge entries on the forum. Just a thought. smile.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 10 2010, 09:08 AM

Here is the first bit of translation of the 5 July press briefing.

Kawaguchi project manager says, here below

Container opening started on 24 June

After that,

Container opening, catcher lifting, inspection of chamber A by opening its lid, inspection of the inside of the container

Chamber A was transported (to the super clean room they had constructed, I think) and serious investigation started.

I told you that opening would take about one week and that we will talk to you upon extracting the samples. Today, that one week has passed for this briefing. At that time, we explained that there must be some materials that went to Itokawa and came back.

Also, anything else found in there cannot be explained immediately. That is the absolute basis of our investigation.

Right now, we have only opened chamber A. There is no information about chamber B.

So far, we have found grains within the container surface and the catcher A (I think this refers to the chamber A) and some of them are visible to naked eyes and others are microscope sized.

Pandaneko

I will continue to translate.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 10 2010, 09:53 AM

QUOTE (Stu @ Jul 10 2010, 05:47 PM) *
, by the way! - you might like to consider starting up a blog,


Not really, I am fraid. I have other blogs already running about my personal hobbies. Besides, once these grains' identity were discovered further information will be forthcoming anyway from other sources, I think and I hope. I will stay with UMSF, though.

Pandaneko

Posted by: Stu Jul 10 2010, 10:28 AM

No prob Pan, really. Your posts are just fine. smile.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 10 2010, 01:24 PM

Reading back a little I realise that the chamber being looked into now is the cleaner chamber which was opened after arriving at Itokawa. That makes sense...

Pandaneko


Posted by: pandaneko Jul 11 2010, 08:46 AM

Here is a second bit of translation. It was given by Mr Mukai of JAXA and we already know most of what he said. So, just the jist of it.


Mr Mukai of JAXA says:

Photo above is the needle and the grain. Maginification is 100.

Photo below is the inside surface of the sample cannister. This is just an ordinary photo. As you can see there are grains visible to nake eyes. We do not know what they are, but we think they are of terretrial origin.

We do not wish to say anything definite yet as we do not know. Dust particles inside the clean room and at the launch site have been collected. Mere comparison will tell us what they are immediately.

That is the current status. Just one ot two grains found so far.

Pandaneko

Here, no photos, but we have seen them.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 11 2010, 08:54 AM

Here is what Mr Ueno of JAXA said next. He did not say a lot.

Mr Ueno of JAXA said:

During the first work we removed the top and bottom of the cannister. That allowed us to look into chamber A. That is the status.

Grains entered through its side port (of the cannister?). The interior is divided into two chambers and we are curently looking at only one of them.

Pandaneko

Not terribly interesting, now follow Q & A session. I once thought that I might omit these unintersting parts, but decided not to.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 11 2010, 09:18 AM

Q & A session

Q: Mainichi newspaper

How many did you find, by naked eyes and by microscope?

A by Mr Mukai:

We have not counted them exatly, the number depends on how you look at them. Those identified as grains by microscope, there are only two at the moment. Those inmobile ones, we do not know if they are grains, or perhaps they are inmobile, stuck (on the surface?), we do not know yet.

We are examinig them one by one under microscope with the maginication of 100. Extensive search is very time consuming.

Q: At least 10, by naked eyes?

A by Mr Mukai of JAXA:

At least 10. maybe a little more, perhaps.

Q by Nihone Keizai newspaper:

What are the sizes of those seen unde microscope? Also, those seen by naked eyes?

I understand that main ones are those which went into the catchers (chambers) and there is a possibility of some wondering into the cannister. Is that it? More possibility with those inside the catchers?

A by Mr Mukai:

We have not set a scale against the photos, but they are of the order of 10 microns, not as large as 0.1 mm, can be a little larger than 10 microns.

Those seen by naked eyes might be about 1 mm in size, perhaps? The bolts you see are M3 in size and if we use them as our scales they might be a little larger than 1 mm, I think.

Pandaneko

Here, you see? Their very first announcment after X-raying did say "No grains larger than 1 mm were found. They are now contradicting it, I think... This is the last translation for now for today.

Posted by: nprev Jul 11 2010, 09:32 AM

Re the 1 mm detection tolerance: I'm willing to bet that was kind of a guess on their part at the smallest particles they could have possibly detected during the x-ray examination.

That had to be a pretty powerful x-ray machine in the first place to blast through the metal of the canister; not too surprising if the radiation passed right through these small non-metallic particles without making much of an impression.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 11 2010, 01:27 PM

QUOTE (nprev @ Jul 11 2010, 06:32 PM) *
Re the 1 mm detection tolerance: I'm willing to bet that was kind of a guess on their part at the smallest particles they could have possibly detected during the x-ray examination.

That had to be a pretty powerful x-ray machine in the first place to blast through the metal of the canister; not too surprising if the radiation passed right through these small non-metallic particles without making much of an impression.


Thanks, one mistery (to me) has evaporated, I think. It is really gratifying to get this kind of comments after spending some of my time on translating the 5 July press briefing. That is exactly what I wanted to get out from it. I will continue translating. Thanks again, Neprev!

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 12 2010, 08:29 AM

Here continues my translation of the first major post landing press conference.

A: (by Prof Kawaguchi to the same question asked earlier)

The sampler (chambers, I think) is like this and the (inner shutter, I think) tube is supposed to rotate like this. (He is here showing a mockup model)

The sampler horn is pulled up and there is a possibility that something on the horn might go into the container because it is kept open. (I do not know what this container means, perhaps the sample cannister, Pandaneko)

However, I am not saying that those are from Itokawa. They may well have been of terrestrial origin.

Also, answering youre question of if they will all go only into the collection chambers I will say that there is a possibility that they ended up elsewhere.

Q: Japan TV

Do you already know the shapes of those grains?

A: (by Mr Mukai)

This photo has the maximum resolution and we do not know their shapes.

Q: Tokyo Shimbun newspaper

Re those two grains found inside the chamber A, are these less than what you expected?, or do you think there are more to be found? What is the size of the needle point?

A: (by Mr Mukai)

Predicting the numer is difficult. We did not have any preconceived idea. There are similar looking dark spots, for instance, and for the moment we think they are scratches of some sort.

It is clear to us that there are other grains to be found and the current status is one of trying to find more of those.

My preliminary calculation tells me that there should be at least 100 grains of terrestrial origin. In fact, there can be as many as hundreds, perhaps even 10,000 from the Earth.

This is based on my certain sets of assumptions and I am not exactly sure if they are right... In any event, there should be more than two or three grains.


May I repeat that we are still investigating. The extreme end of the manipulator cannot be seen, less than one micron.

Q: Kyodou Tsushin

Sample catcher A, when was it operational?

A: (by Prof Kawaguchi)
The chamber A was operational at the second landing, B was operational at the first.

Q: (Kyodou Tsushin)

Any further work will be done after finishing with A?

A: (by Mr Ueno)

Yes, we will move on to B only after thoroughly cataloguing those in A. We are still looking right now at A with the largest resolution, but really good results are very limited due to this resolution limit.

(More to follow, Pandaneko)

Posted by: Leither Jul 12 2010, 09:11 PM

Pandaneko, many thanks for the excellent job you are doing in translating the press conference. Your translations are providing new additional information. Please keep on with the translations.

In particular we now know which chamber was open at which landing attempt.

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 12 2010, 09:29 AM) *
A: (by Prof Kawaguchi)
The chamber A was operational at the second landing, B was operational at the first.


So the two small grains were found in the 'previously unopened/clean' chamber A which was use during the second touch and go landing. As the bullet did not fire and the touch down time was very short (~1sec), I can see why they might think that these could just as easily be terrestrial.

Since that conference it has been reported that they have found many more grains - given the shape of these chambers (see attached) they might easily have been found in the bottom of chamber A. Or maybe they have now opened chamber B, which was used during the bump and bounce 30 min first landing? We will just have to wait and see.




QUOTE
Grains entered through its side port (of the cannister?).
Yes, this is correct. I think they call it the 'catcher' just to avoid confusion with the outer container.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 12 2010, 11:34 PM

This news just in.

Mr Mukai, technical adviser at JAXA said on Monday 12 July;

1. Press briefings will be conducted from now on every Monday.
2. Most of the grains found so far are thought to be of Earth origin.
3. There will be more grains to be found.
4. He personally thinks that there will be Itokawa grains.
5. They are trying to come up with more efficient ways of recovery.

Pandaneko

Posted by: deglr6328 Jul 13 2010, 12:45 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 13 2010, 12:34 AM) *
2. Most of the grains found so far are thought to be of Earth origin.



I am suspicious of this claim. I don't want to second guess Dr. Mukai, but, well....other than hypothetical statistics, what are they going on to determine the suspected origin of the grains at this point? On grains so tiny, I would doubt simple visible light microscope examination would reveal much of anything. I would think something like ion probe etching / isotopic ratio analysis would be necessary to determine origin and I don't think they're nearly at that stage of investigation yet. Let's wait patiently for what I'm sure will be a very interesting Nature or at least Icarus paper.

Posted by: nprev Jul 13 2010, 12:53 AM

I'm sure that each & every nugget's gonna be examined exhaustively, and you're absolutely right: it's going to take time.

Probably seeing some entirely reasonable & prudent expectation management at work here using, as you pointed out, a statistical model as its basis. The very last thing they want to do is to inflate expectations; that never turns out well. As is, they have nowhere to go but up...and that's the position they definitely want to be in. wink.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 13 2010, 08:20 AM

Can we not use that octopus to find out? Anyway, let me continue with my translation.

Q: Have you recovered some grains?

A: (by Mr Mukai)

We have not yet given catalogue numbers as to where they were found. (Is location so important? Pandaneko) We have moved some and some did move.

It is very difficult to look at the catcher walls with a microscope. Here in this area, for instance, we have not tried anything. (How can we look at curved walls with a microscope? Pandaneko)

We will have to reconsider our current method, not just by the manipulater only, but some other means will have to be tried...


Q: (Asahi Shimbun newspaper)

Those two grains of 10 microns, what area percentage of the catcher walls are they from? And, those visible ones, if they are of terrestrial origin what are they?

A: (by Mr Mukai)

They came from this flat area here and part of this area. We have not covered much area yet to speak of. Awfully difficult to look at curved surfaces, and we are doing trial and error at the moment.

We will have to find ways of looking at the walls. A few ideas are around. For instance, static electricity with the manipulater, or a teflon spatula as grains will stick to it, but we fear mechanical damage to the grains if we do that.

Q: (Asahi)

It has been reported that you also toyed with the idea of using a brush (!!!) at an initial stage.

A: (by Mr Mukai)

Yes we did, if the grains are abundant in number we would have used a spatula, but it is not the case now. Some may move if a spatula is used.

If they came from Earth there are a number of possibilities. The spacecraft was assembled in a clean room of class 100,000.

After that the craft was incorporated into the faring and we pump into it air of the same class 100,000. However, the faring is constructed in an ordinary rocket factory and anything may be attached to it.

Quite how terrestrial grains may end up in the sample cannister, we have no means of simulation, very difficult. Anyway, the craft has been kept in the said environment and we expect that terrestrial particles came from that kind of environment.

Pandaneko

(more to follow)


Posted by: pandaneko Jul 14 2010, 08:43 AM

Continuation of JAXA 5 July press briefing

Q: Those grains look very large to naked eyes and it is difficult to imagine that they came from clean rooms...

A: It certainsly is difficult and I share your vieiw. There are many in the faring which we think came from the Earth. On launching, on faring opening, we can find grains even with onboard cameras.

However, we are not saying at all that they came from the Earth.


Q: (by Mainichi Shimbun newspaper)

Any other reasons to believe that they may have come from Earth?

A: (by Mr Mukai)

Cosmic dusts people are saying that they look different, for instance, colours are different, have not seen these extremely whitish particles, that kind of comments... If they are from Itokawa that will be a great discovery, but I would say that probability is small.

A: (by Mr Ueno)

Samples must transfer from the horn to here. I would say that the probability of them ending up in the container is small.

Q: (Japan TV)

Those grains, where did they come from?, probabilitywise?

A: (Mr Mukai)

We cannot say at the moment. We have a feeling that they are different from cosmic dusts, but precisely speaking probablities are equal.

Q: (Yomiuri newspaper)

Schedule of events from now on?

A: (Mr Mukai)

We will have to look into catcher B. Eventually, all the recovered grains will be subjected to detailed analysys. There are procedures, however.

We will first be analysing representative grains. We made our analysis plan before launch assuming that there will be a lot of them and according to that plan 10% to 15 % will be our initial target.

10% will be provided to NASA, and 40% will be provided to international academic communities after inviting proposals. The rest will be kept here because advances in analytical techniques and instruments are very rapid. That was our plan in the first place before launch.


For a start, we have to decide what are the representative 15%. Recovering all the grains will be time consuming. It may take a few years, but we cannnot wait that long. Therefore,

After a while, 3 months, I would say, we will have to look into catcher B as well, and decide what are in there and make an estimate of some kind, and then decide on the 15%. If the found numer is small we might be looking at 30%. In any event they will be the ones for our initial analysis.

Intial analysis will be invited internationally. So, not all of them will be analysed at the same time.

We will be first discussing what represnts our representative data and we will act upon its conclusion.

Pandaneko

So, we may be hearing something around X'mas this year? More to follow.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 14 2010, 10:10 AM

This link below may be something similar to what I saw at the planetarium in my local area. It is a CG. It is only about post landing at Itokawa. I may be able to find pre-departure video, not sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuXuZLq5fVY&NR=1

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 14 2010, 02:46 PM

I did hesitate about uploading this so immediately after the last one. However, I have two reasons to upload this.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsQp9Zey27Y&NR=1

Some of you may remember that I was yapping about the reverse shower at Itokawa, how violent it was etc etc. Here, you can get a feel about it. I am certain that this came from the planetarium CG without correction because solar pannels are seen bent. Anyway, some of those dusts and grains might have found their way in ...

2. I had a quick look at the rest of the 5 Jluy press briefing. It looks like I need another 4 postings to finish off with it with the usual size I upload, but I would like to cram them into 3 , because unless I do it on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, we will have next Monday when they will be giving another press briefing. It will become confusing if I report on that too and I will.

So, I would like to finish my curent translation by Sunday evening. Even now, I am getting slightly confused between this press briefing and my own postings made after the briefing.

Pandaneko

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 14 2010, 03:15 PM

This is from the first video. So what's going on here? I thought Hayabusa was a "he."



 

Posted by: Hungry4info Jul 14 2010, 03:21 PM

That doesn't look to me like it has to be a "she." I can see how it's a "he."

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 14 2010, 06:07 PM

I've seen Hayabusa represented as either gender. This is the most disturbing one I spotted during the events:


(That's supposed to be Itokawa she's holding in the first picture.)

Posted by: stevesliva Jul 14 2010, 06:09 PM

QUOTE (Hungry4info @ Jul 14 2010, 11:21 AM) *
That doesn't look to me like it has to be a "she." I can see how it's a "he."


Honestly Dan, don't you wear pleated skirts and ballet shoes?

Posted by: Stu Jul 14 2010, 06:10 PM

No-one ever, EVER laugh at me for humanising the rovers again!!! laugh.gif

Posted by: Hungry4info Jul 14 2010, 09:23 PM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Jul 14 2010, 12:07 PM) *
This is the most disturbing one I spotted during the events


Haha, epic! She looks like she's dressed like the spacecraft herself. laugh.gif

Posted by: nprev Jul 14 2010, 11:37 PM

Yeah, that one freaked me out a bit when I first saw it as well! tongue.gif

Posted by: eoincampbell Jul 15 2010, 04:05 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 14 2010, 07:46 AM) *
Some of you may remember that I was yapping about ...

Not yapping but - continuously keeping Hayabusa fans updated by translating all that stuff for us....
Awesome !

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 15 2010, 08:33 AM

Q: (unknown)

I do understand that there are many things that you do not know. However, how are you feeling right now after the discovery of those grains?

A: (by Prof Kawaguchi)

In any case the fact that catcher(s) is not empty is something. That is very importnat. I am dead certain that some terrestrial particles made a return journey. However, on the other hand, I am naively being happy that the catcher is not empty, because there is still some hope.

However, we should not prejudice our findings and we should not raise too much expectation. We need to analyse them carefully.

Q: (by Mainichi Shimbun newspaper)

About work procedures, purging terrestrial particles, and then the likely timing of the end of your screening?

A: (by Mr Mukai)

We are right now trying to distinguish particles (or not). We cannot provide the number. On the other hand science world is interested and we cannot afford to spend years.

However, if you ask us if we can come to a conclusion in a month time I cannot possibly say yes, perhaps 2 to 3 months?

Because, if there were Itokawa grains that would have an impact. That is why we need to be careful all the more.

Q: (?)

You were talking about 6 months, initially?

A: (by Mr Mukai)

We expected a small number of particles, initially, and even if some were of terrestrial origin, how many might be from Itokawa, we did hope we would find some Itokawa grains and yet we thought very few, and that is why we thought 3 to 6 months.


(Back to Sagamihara, where ISAS is and I now realise this was a video conference)

Q: (by Aoki)

Grains and the gas in the capsule, are you examinig the origin of the gas? Re grains found, what about the possibility of cosmic dusts while in flight?, what about the possibility of them coming from the leaked fuel?

Also, can you tell us a bit more about the samples from the clean rooms?

At this point of my translation the original Japanese text I have been overwriting disappeared. I think it is the system setting. So, I finish here and try to upload a slightly shorter continuation. I have been deleting the Japanse text as proceeded, though...

Incidentally, there was an article on Hayabusa 2 in today's Asahi newspaper, about which I have already posted separately with Hayabusa 2.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 15 2010, 08:44 AM

Addition to my earlier posting.

A: (by Mr Mukai)

We have not done anything about the gas. It almost certainly came from the Earth. We do not know Itokawa gas composition (!!!) It is difficult to imagine they came from the leaked fuel, zero possibility, I think.

Intersteller cosmic dusts?, almost zero possibility, we cannot say with exact certainty, but, no, I should think.

We are analysing Earth samples, of course, and they are very different from those from space. The launching site at Uchinoura was close to a volcano, so we are analysing volcanic particles, too.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 15 2010, 09:04 AM

QUOTE (eoincampbell @ Jul 15 2010, 01:05 PM) *
Not yapping but - continuously keeping Hayabusa fans updated by translating all that stuff for us....
Awesome !


Not really, now being retired I have not much to do after 16:00, although I am pretty busy with my hobby work during daytime everyday. I suppose that I feel that it is a duty for a retired person to be of help to other people...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 15 2010, 09:08 AM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jul 15 2010, 12:15 AM) *
This is from the first video. So what's going on here? I thought Hayabusa was a "he."


Here, she is saying that she has completed a succesful errand.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 16 2010, 08:01 AM

Q: (?) Comparison with terrestrial samples has not yet been done?

A: (Mr Mukai) That is correct. It will take another few months before starting.

Q: (?) Terrestrial samples, how many types have you got?

A: (Mr Mukai) We have analysed representative samples and obtained their spectral signatures from about 10 of them.

(back to Tokyo again)

Q: (NHK TV)

You say that you will do an initial analysis using the 15% preresentative grains. Can we understand that they are likely to be from Itokawa?

A: (Mr Mukai)

We would like to select those that might be of Itokawa origin, but we cannot know in advance. We will make our judgement because our initial analysis will include isotropic and and element analysis.

Q: (?) Can you not judge before your initial analysis whether they are from Itokawa?

A: (Mr Mukai) We will do that to a small extent, mainly by electron microscopy (EM). We should be able to announce their relative probabilities, and we will also know rough elemental compositions.

However, EM scans with electron beams and surfaces will change. We need to use very weak beams and we are currently testing the parameters and also preparation for EM analysis.

However, our expectation (and hope) is that chosen ones will be analysed for 80% probability. Firm conclusion is too difficult.

Here yet again my original Japanese text disappeared. I will C&P some more and overwrite.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 16 2010, 08:15 AM

Q: (?)

Are you saying that there is an 80% probability of some of them coming from Itokawa?

A: (?) It is my gut feeling. There is a 20% possibility of us being wrong. We would not like that number to be self-multiplying itself. However, it is only natural that we go for the largest possibility when selecting representative grains.

Q: (Japan TV) Is your work schedule nominal?, going smoothely? Can you compare your pace with that of climing a mountain? How much have you climbed so far?

A: (Mr Mukai) Yes, just as we expected. However, finding out if they are grains, or just scracthes, is turning out to be extremely difficult. This was expected right from the start.

Halfway up the mountain?, no, we are still at its foot.

Pandaneko

(more to follow tommorrow to finish off with the 5 July briefing)

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 17 2010, 08:14 AM

A: (Prof Kawaguchi in relation to earlier question)

The number perceived of the grains differs from person to person and finding them under microscope is very time consuming. Right now, we are finding on average two per week. If it takes 5 days, then 200 days for 40 grains.


Representative grains, and we are talking about 15% representative and high possibility grains, and if we are to pick up 6 of them, say, and we spend half a month on our initial analysis per each of the grains.

The question here is if it is right to stick to this pattern of half a month for one grain when, say, 40 grains are found. Are we really going into 40 x 0.5 month investigation? Mr Mukai is right now considering how better we might proceed.

I think we should do the cataloguing first and then concentrate on higher possibility grains.

Your question is perhaps why we do not put this first one to initial analysis, but we have randomly picked this up from a collection of 40 (Have they got 40 already?), so is it better to spend half a month on this? Would that be efficient?

The first found grain has the high possibility?, we do not even know, it is only the first one, after all. That is why we are concentrating on cataloguing.

Pandaneko (and I will upload a little more today in case I cannnot finish by end of Sunday)

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 17 2010, 08:32 AM

Q: (Sankei newspaper)

At the moment you have two grains which have been identified as grains?

A: (Mr Mukai) Yes, two.

Q: (Sankei) This photo here, is this one of the two?

A: (Mr Mukai) Yes, without a scale, but I guess it is 10 or 20 microns.

Q: (Sankei) Do you have a photo of the other one?

A: (Mr Mukai) No, it looked similar, that is why.

(Back to ISAS, Sagamihara)

Q: (Mr Aoki, whoever he is) Catcher closing happened very much later. Is there not a possibility somehing might go in before that?

That rotating part which separates chamber A and B, (it was clumsy because it was EM?:::: here I am not sure what this Mr Aoki is talking about...), is there not a possibility that the rotating contact might have produced grains?

Pandaneko (more to follow, tommorrow))

Posted by: sgendreau Jul 18 2010, 03:30 AM

Thank you, pandaneko. I don't post often, but no one has responded in a bit -- and believe me, we are all listening.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 18 2010, 07:54 AM

A: (Mr Mukai)

The assembly is so made that there is no friction, but there is a gap through which something might sneak in.

Q: (Mr Matsuura, a space journalist) The photo below here, which one is the grain?

A: (Mr Mukai) One at the bottom, and also the white one above it.

Q: (unkown) When will your initial analysis begin?, Do you have a rough idea?

A: (Mr Mukai) I cannnot imagine that we can start at the beginning of August, much later, I think. You know the status with chamber A, we are trying to be elaborate.

Q: (unknown) the earliest possible timing?

A: We willl have to start 3 months from now at the latest, else we will be acused, I am sure. It could be a little earlier, though.

We cannnot just do "Are you ready? Go!" sort of thing. We are doing trial and error by checking the grains. It is possible that we will do a partial examination helfway through, however.

Whether terrestrial or space, the most important thing is not loose them. We are being careful.

More to follow for completion

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 18 2010, 08:25 AM

Q: (Mainichi newspaper) If there are grains from Itokawa where are they more likely to be found?, A or B?

A: (Prof Kawaguchi) It is difficult to answer that question. I would like them to be found everywhere.

Q: (?) You opened A not because A was more likely to have Itokawa graions? Is that so?

A: (Mr Mukai) A was opened first in view of work procedures.

Q: (Asahi newspaper)

When will you be opening B?, any prospect for that?

A: (Mr Mukai) We do not know at the moment.

Q: (Tokyo newspaper) You told us at the last briefing that you may announce the discovery of Itokawa grain(s) before an initial analysis started. What do you say to that now?

A: (Mr Mukai) (Here, I must be very careful because what he says is not very clear to me, Pandaneko)

High possibility is coming from EM shape recognition and elemental analysis, high possibility, something like 80%... We think we can slect out those with a higher possibility.

Q: You told us that you will make an announcement as soon as you have recognised them?

A: That will take a few months, because we will have to do isotopic analysis, too. If found, we will have to send a paper to journals like Nature and Science. If we are to do that it will be a joint paper with NASA. Earliest timing is later this year, I think.

Q: Are you implying that you will not make an annoucement unless a paper has been submitted?

A: (Mr Mukai) I personnally think so.

A: (Prof Kawaguchi) We will need to get NASA's agreenment before the results are published.

About this kind of procedures, similar complaints were heard when landing operations were going on. Naturally, we will be getting a bad publicity if we place this kind of reporting constraints from media people, but we would like to stick to it.

This completes my translation of JAXA 5 July press conference.

Pandaneko

Posted by: Paolo Jul 18 2010, 10:11 AM

Thanks a lot Pandaneko, I appreciated your translation very much!

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 18 2010, 01:03 PM

Please note that JAXA will be holding a press briefing every Monday, for the time being, I think.

However, I will not have access to it directly. All I can report from now on will be based on newspaper articles, both web and physical delivered to my house.

And, one of the two reasons I am doing this is because I feel it is not right for people to be shut out from information on what is happening post landing given the fact that we have been sharing hopes and anxieties all these years. It is just not right.

The other reason is of course that I get deeper understandins from other people's comments.

JAXA is slow with updates and if I can fill in the gaps I will be quite happy to be a window. I have a gut feeling that they have already got something, though...

Pandaneko

Posted by: nprev Jul 18 2010, 01:05 PM

Indeed, many thanks, P. We never would have had any of that information if you hadn't taken the time and trouble to do this! smile.gif

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jul 18 2010, 02:23 PM

Yes, thank you very much! For cases where you aren't sure about the translation, can you post the Japanese as well as the English? For example, in this bit:

QUOTE
A: (Mr Mukai) (Here, I must be very careful because what he says is not very clear to me, Pandaneko)

High possibility is coming from EM shape recognition and elemental analysis, high possibility, something like 80%... We think we can slect out those with a higher possibility.

i suspect he's saying they're using an EM classification algorithm to select likely grains to analyze (based on shape and composition), that the most likely ones are 80% likely to be asteroidal, and that they'll go through those in the order the algorithm suggests. But I could take a better guess if I could see the original Japanese.

Thanks again for doing this!

--Greg

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 18 2010, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jul 18 2010, 11:23 PM) *
Yes, thank you very much! For cases where you aren't sure about the translation, can you post the Japanese as well as the English?
--Greg


Yes, Greg, of course. I will do that. You must have Japanese colleagues working with you, I suppose. However, may I do that tommorrow? I am a bit sleepy after tonight's summer festival dancing and all those drinks on the beach.

However, comments like yours, yes, I am fascinated. I am now beginning to understand what I have translated may mean re what they are doing... Something I would not have known without your comments. I am most grateful!!!

Pandaneko

Posted by: tanjent Jul 18 2010, 04:52 PM

The discussion up to this point is mainly about searching for a "procedural" answer to the big question of whether this or that speck of matter comes from Itokawa. This means examining the chain of evidence kind of like in a cocaine bust, trying to rule out all the possible ways the bits could have come from earth, either before takeoff, or in the form of bits of the spacecraft during the voyage, or after the re-entry. Even through the language barrier, it's becoming clear that this is going to be pretty difficult to establish - but it doesn't matter a whole lot as long as the question has an inherent answer that the particles themselves will eventually share with us.

If a clear procedural call cannot be made, the answer should still come when we get down to examining the particles directly. What kind of clues will the scientists be looking for? The one that immediately comes to my mind is the presence of Iridium, since that element has already played its role in the forensics of the dinosaur-killer asteroid. But what are the other telltale signs - isotopic ratios or cosmic ray tracks or whatnot? The researchers who receive samples at these universities around the world will want to perform some quick-and-dirty tests to make sure they are actually looking at a bit of Itokawa before they move on to the more expensive and deeper probing that will tell us where the asteroid came from and begin to answer questions about the origins/history of the solar system.

Sure we will learn what they did when the results are published, but prediction is half the fun in a forum like UMSF. Maybe there are even people out there who actually will end up with an alleged "piece of the rock". I'm curious to know what are the first tests you would perform.

Posted by: Leither Jul 18 2010, 08:17 PM

Many thanks Pandaneko for the thorough translations. I personally am very grateful and have learnt a lot from them.

I was especially glad for this snippet from your last post:

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 18 2010, 09:25 AM) *
A: (Mr Mukai) A was opened first in view of work procedures.

As I had wondered why they had not opted first for chamber B, which was open during the first bump and bounce 30 min landing. My gut feeling tells me this will bear the greater fruits!

Fortunately JAXA used their head and adopted a methodically approach just encase there are Itokawa particles in there.

Please do report any info that you find out from the weekly briefing. Once again many thanks.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 19 2010, 08:28 AM

QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jul 18 2010, 11:23 PM) *
For cases where you aren't sure about the translation, can you post the Japanese as well as the English? For example, in this bit:

--Greg



Greg, the URL below contains what you are talking about

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/pepani/e/a2b32aec75dd20aa0b8212d3520cf990

What he said is found towards the very last end, just before the pictures. If you have any difficulty please do not hesitate to ask me again.

At the time of sending this out there is now news about today's press briefing. Either,

1. There is not much new to report.
2. It is still early, 17:23 local.

While searching for JAXA briefing news I came across a piece about JAXA's Mercury mission to be launched in 2014. One interesting aspect of the probe is that its surfaces are all mirrors!

Pandaneko

Posted by: Leither Jul 19 2010, 04:15 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Jul 19 2010, 09:28 AM) *
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/pepani/e/a2b32aec75dd20aa0b8212d3520cf990

Thanks for the link. That's the first time I've seen pictures of the sample catcher. The complexity of chamber A is clear to see, no wonder examining it's surfaces will be so difficult and time consuming.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 20 2010, 02:39 PM

I realise that I have not exactly completed my translation. For tecnical reasons (I do not know how to merge separately placed texts into one) I will uploard 4, or 5? posts and I would like you refer to the link just before this with respect to the photos this newspaper reporter is referring to.

On this particular day, follwoing two photos were made available by courtesy of JAXA (actually, 5 of them on this blog of his).

The first one is the confirmed grain inside the sample catcher, by optical microscope of 100 magnification. A quratz needle is seen with the grain and with its shadow.

Second photo is the sample container. You can see some grains even with naked eyes.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 20 2010, 02:52 PM

Itokawa samples were to be kept inside a cylindrical container called "catcher". It is divided into upper and lower parts. One of them, A, was used at the second landing and it is currently being investigated.

B has not been opened.

Grains were to be directed into A or B through the sampler horn at the time of landing. The closing mechanism was like that you often see at the entrance of buildings, a rotating door. At the first landing B was open, then A was open at the second landing.

The rotating door then rotated to close both A and B.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 20 2010, 03:09 PM

The catcher was kept inside the container, and A and B was to be closed by a rotating door.

One of the reasons why those naked eye visible grains are thought to be of terrestrial origin is that they were found outside the catcher. However, there is a slim chance that they came from Itokawa. Further investigations is awaited.

JAXA told us that they had only examined only parts of A, the flat part first, because it is difficult to to look at curbed surface, actually they had not done anything about the the curbed surface for this reason at the time of this press conference.

It is likely that they will find more grains in A, and there is B which is to be opend yet.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 20 2010, 03:17 PM

I am not exactly sure what follows is relevant, but I will give it a try.

"I had a look in the catcher and saw a groove around its bottom. On earth dusts will gather in these places, why they made such structures in the first place, I do not know, but it is going to be very time consuming for them, I am sure"

Pandaneko

I should imagine that there is no new news to speak of at the moment. I do not see any reporting at all.

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 20 2010, 03:59 PM

Quite why I get this news now on 21 July about JAXA announcement on 12 JUly, it totally fails me. Anyway, it goes like this.

JAXA made an announcment of the status of sampling on 12 July. According to it:

They are no longer using the quartz needle and instead using a teflon spatula. They used the spatula in the area where the first two grains were recovered, and found 20 to 30 grains as a result.

According to Mr Mukai of JAXA,

all of them are a few microns in size, and it is turning out to be very diificult to retrieve them from the spatula surface. They are electrostatistically attached to it and we are thinking of neutralising them and recovering them with a manipulator, however, time needed for recovery of one grain is a few hours.

We also think most of them are from Earth, and we are trying to come up with more efficient methods. Is it worth spending that sort of time? , that is our question at the moment.

Re current difficulty, JAXA said "with the current vaccum chamber in which catchers are in the maximum optical resolution is of the order of a few microns, and yet there is a possibility of even smaller ones inside.

Progress is slow because expacted future advancements of analytical methods compel us to reserve them as they are as much as possible.

Also, it was difficult to prepare a few micron sized dummy particles for our rehearsal investigation. So, we will have to do this trial and error examination. Our rehearsal has been with larger particles. We would like you to be patient.

For your information, JAXA is also looking at other more efficient ways.

Pandaneko

Posted by: brellis Jul 20 2010, 05:24 PM

PandaCat - thanks again for staying on this!

If Can B is more likely to have the juicier stuff, it seems good to work out the extraction methods here with Can A. I just wonder why the methodology wasn't firmly established long ago?

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 30 2010, 12:27 PM

I am not sure if what follows will be useful at all. It is the link to a movie about public display of Hayabusa heat shields. Both front and rear end ablators.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/stream/m_news/vn100729_3.htm

Still no more news about grains. I think they are bogged down in it forever and ever...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jul 31 2010, 11:52 AM

There was an announcement about 10 days ago that NHK (a major TV station) will be carrying a programme on progres about Hayabusa on 31 July. I was skeptical about its feasibility given what JAXA had been talking about re cataloguing those tiny grains. On the other hand, I was looking forward to it.

Today, 31 July, I did not find such a programme in the newspaper, and my web search confirms that it has been cancelled. It has been re-scheduled to be televised on 28 August. I am dead certain that there was not much yet to warrant a TV programme.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Aug 5 2010, 08:16 AM

Space Activities Commission (SAC, part of the Ministry of Education, Science, Culture and Sports) has announced their verdict today according to today's Yomiuri newspaper.

Their verdict on the proposed Hayabusa 2 sample return mission is "reasonable and feasible", and recommended a full development. Given this recommendation the ministry will include Hayabusa 2 development costs in their budget request for fiscal 2011.

According to the proposal Hayabusa 2 mission will depart in 2014 for 1999JU3 and arrive there in 2018 and land on the asteroid, and return in 2020.

Given that Hayabusa failed to collect samples by the sampler horn Hayabusa 2 will employ an explosive charge to make a crator and attempt to securely collect organic rich materials.

Pandaneko

My gut feeling is that it will go as proposed because reaction by the general public to date re Hayabusa's return has been pretty good as I can judge from local newspapers. Besides, current prime minister said that he would personally support it (He himself was a scientist, trained at Tokyo Institute of Technology) , and the former prime minister was also a scientist trained at Tokyo University.

They both belong to the same ruling party at the moment with a handsome majority in the parliament.


Posted by: nprev Aug 5 2010, 11:47 AM

Great news!!! smile.gif Thanks, Pandaneko.

Posted by: pandaneko Aug 25 2010, 08:32 AM

Yesterday's Yomiuri newspaper here reported that JAXA will be postponing their verdict (innitially scheduled for September) on the grains until December this year. They are still struggling with those tiny grains.

Also, there is to be an NHK TV programme on 28 August about Hayabusa, which was postponed from July, but I do not think there will be anything new. Patience?

Pandaneko

Posted by: nprev Aug 25 2010, 10:43 AM

Science requires patience, P. I'm not surprised at all that they want to take enough time to be certain of their decisions, whatever they may be. Thank you as always for keeping us well-informed! smile.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Aug 26 2010, 12:48 PM

What follows come from two different newspapers picked up by my Google alert. Time lag is due to the fact that news articles are contained in Weblogs by various individuals.

1. JAXA announced on 23 August that grain analysis will start after December. (We all know the reason)

So far, 20 to 30 grains of 0.01mm size have been recovered from the inner walls of the sample catcher. JAXA are trying to recover all of those grains not visible by optical microscope. In addition, they will begin to start recovery process of another so far untouched section in October (of the same can) and they are hoping that there might be larger grains there.


2. By October JAXA will identify (Itokawa) likely target grains and request detailed analysis by research groups. How long it may take before anything comes out is unkown.

Pandaneko





Posted by: pandaneko Aug 29 2010, 09:09 AM

NHK TV programme on Hayabusa was on yesterday ( 28 August). There was nothing new which we do not know about so far.

One thing, though, apparently, there was a programming mistake with the software for the sampler horn operations... No wonder...

Pandaneko


Posted by: nprev Oct 1 2010, 04:24 PM

Article on http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1009/29hayabusa/; analysis of recovered particles expected in Feb/Mar 2011, chamber B not yet opened, PI optimistic that at least some of the samples are indeed from Itokawa.

Posted by: Hungry4info Oct 6 2010, 03:57 AM

This is encouraging.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fosaka.yomiuri.co.jp%2Fscience%2Fnews%2F20101006-OYO8T00208.htm&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Posted by: nprev Oct 6 2010, 04:55 AM

Sure seems to be. Hopefully our intrepid man in the field Pandaneko will check in with an analysis of the story...

Posted by: centsworth_II Nov 16 2010, 05:22 AM

This is really encouraging!

http://planetary.org/blog/article/00002775/tp://

Posted by: nprev Nov 16 2010, 05:28 AM

I'm tempted to begin 'whoo-HOO!!!'ing, but I will exercise dignity & reserve until all is fully confirmed.

But I'm grinning like a thief. biggrin.gif

Posted by: eoincampbell Nov 16 2010, 05:49 AM

And so the great story continues... helped so much here by the assistance of Pandaneko...

Posted by: JimOberg Nov 16 2010, 06:01 AM

Jiji: Japan Confirms Success of Asteroid Probe Mission

Tokyo Jiji Press in English 0202 GMT 16 Nov 10
Tokyo, Nov. 16 (Jiji Press) -- Japan's space agency said Tuesday that sand particles collected by the country's Hayabusa unmanned probe have been confirmed to be from asteroid Itokawa, announcing the world's first successful asteroid probe mission.
After analyzing some 1,500 particles contained in a capsule of Hayabusa, the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, or JAXA, concluded that they came from Itokawa. They are the first dust samples ever collected from an asteroid.
Particles from an asteroid are different from samples from meteors in that they have not been exposed to the heat or air associated with atmospheric entry. In addition, materials on an asteroid are thought to have little changed in nature from the time when the solar system was formed about 4.6 billion years ago.
Asteroid samples are thus expected to serve as a clue to help scientists figure out how the solar system and its components, including Earth, were formed.
The collected particles are confirmed to be those of such minerals as olivines and pyroxenes. By examining iron and magnesium included in the samples, JAXA found that the particles have far more iron content than their equivalents on Earth.
The results of the analyses were compared with data obtained through telescopic observations of Itokawa. Following discussions with outside experts, JAXA last week concluded that the particles are from the asteroid.
The particles will be examined further using the Super Photon ring-8, or SPring-8, synchrotron radiation facility in Sayo, Hyogo Prefecture, western Japan, in January next year.
A part of the container capsule has yet to be opened, and the portion will be examined possibly later this month.
After being launched in May 2003, Hayabusa reached Itokawa, located between Earth and Mars, in September 2005.
In November that year, Hayabusa landed on the asteroid twice to pick up rock fragments. But its rock collection equipment did not function properly.
However, Hayabusa managed to collect the samples because dust was kicked up when it landed on the asteroid.
The spacecraft completed its mission in June this year after travelling some 6 billion kilometers. Hayabusa burned up during its reentry into the atmosphere, but its capsule safely landed on a desert in Australia.
JAXA plans to start developing a new Hayabusa probe in fiscal 2011, aiming to launch it in 2014.

Posted by: pandaneko Nov 16 2010, 08:30 AM

QUOTE (eoincampbell @ Nov 16 2010, 02:49 PM) *
And so the great story continues... helped so much here by the assistance of Pandaneko...


I confirm newspaper reports of Itokawa grains. No English version at JAXA site, yet.

However, I am surprised that despite very rencent pessimistic newspaper reports this news came in like a thunderbolt.

Samples from the first container will be sent to NASA and also to the SPRING-8 in January next year.

The other container was opened a few days ago. No news yet of this second can. The found grains will be compared with those from US samples from the comet they looked at and sampled.

More news will have to follow, I think and I will report on them as approapriate.

Pandaneko

Posted by: AndyG Nov 16 2010, 09:39 AM

Excellent! So the little probe that could, did! smile.gif


Andy

Posted by: machi Nov 16 2010, 01:34 PM

My congrats!
And this is only first container!
I look forward to LPSC 2011. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Pertinax Nov 16 2010, 01:58 PM

Wow! I'm struggling with finding the right words to fully convey how I feel!

Congratulations Hayabusa team!!!! You have truly achieved an astonishingly remarkable success! Your dedication and excellence in the face of seemingly insurmountable adversity is incredible and inspiring.


CONGRATULATIONS and thank you.


-- Pertinax


Posted by: centsworth_II Nov 16 2010, 02:05 PM

http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2010/11/20101116_hayabusa_e.html


Posted by: tasp Nov 16 2010, 02:40 PM

The current Planetary Report (GO Planetary Society!) has an excellent photo of the Hayabusa re-entry over Australia.

All the more significance to the photo knowing there were 1500 particles in the container!


Posted by: centsworth_II Nov 16 2010, 03:33 PM

QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 16 2010, 09:40 AM) *
All the more significance to the photo knowing there were 1500 particles in the container!
In one of the containers. I don't know if anyone knows the likelihood of the other container containing more or less.

From the JAXA release: "...from sample catcher compartment "A", about 1,500 grains were identified....
The Hayabusa sampler container consists of 2 compartments that are called "Sample Catcher A and B."

Posted by: jamescanvin Nov 16 2010, 03:47 PM

Congratulations to JAXA on another amazing chapter of the Hayabusa story. smile.gif

QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Nov 16 2010, 03:33 PM) *
I don't know if anyone knows the likelihood of the other container containing more or less.


I seem to remember reading somewhere a while back that the other container was considered to be more likely to contain bits of Itokawa.


Posted by: nprev Nov 16 2010, 06:33 PM

Hey, Pandaneko! smile.gif Thanks for the confirmation, and looking forward to your continuing insights & analysis. How is the news being received in Japan?

Posted by: Oersted Nov 16 2010, 07:52 PM

Superb news! - What an accomplishment by JAXA! I wonder if this is as big news in Japan as it should be.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Nov 16 2010, 08:21 PM

A quick Google search shows the story is on the big Japanese news websites. So yes, it's getting good press coverage.

Phil

Posted by: Leither Nov 16 2010, 10:36 PM

QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Nov 16 2010, 03:33 PM) *
I don't know if anyone knows the likelihood of the other container containing more or less.


It is likely that the other container (Sample catcher B ) will contain more particles as it was this container which was open during the first 'bump and grind' landing attempt. However, if it does contain particles, they might not all be from Itokawa as the container was open all thro' launch and during the flight to Itokawa. Sample catcher A was open only for the second touch and go landing attempt.

My gut feeling is that they will find much larger particles in container B due to the more 'dynamic' first impact. ph34r.gif

Posted by: brellis Nov 17 2010, 12:58 AM

Sifting through the 'B' box could take a lot longer for that reason. So, they actually have a simpler task on the emptier 'A' during which they can find methods and signatures to look for in 'B'.

Posted by: pandaneko Nov 17 2010, 10:08 AM

QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 17 2010, 03:33 AM) *
Hey, Pandaneko! smile.gif Thanks for the confirmation, and looking forward to your continuing insights & analysis. How is the news being received in Japan?


Thanks, well, it has been strange for the last few months and particularly the last two weeks. I noticed this yesterday on the Asahi newspaper we subscribe to, but only after a few minutes from reading the main article of the day on the front page. Areawise, the Hayabusa article on the same front page was something like 5 to 10 %, down to the lower left.

However, yes, there are similar articles on all of other major national papers and on the web pages. Havingsaid that, ythe main reason I have been reticent during the last few months is that despite sporadic newspaper reports they all pointed to the likelihood of judgement being postponed into next Januray and beyond.

This, despite the fact that JAXA said they will endeavour to deliver something concrete in December. Now, it is November.

During the last immediate two weeks there were reports that they had found 350 grains, then only two days after that they said (or somebody said) there were 850 grains, and then just only a few days later they were talking about 1500 grains, and yet no conclusive comments at all about identity. So, I did not bother to upload anything.

My guess is that somebody has been trying to be clever. On the day this announcement (Yesterday) was made by the minister of science here an assessment on Hayabusa 2 budget was going on, a very timely announcement, I should think.

There have been newspaper articles, about half a dozen during the last few months, and they were all talking about 2 as a matter of factly, taken for granted to go in 2014. I was skeptical about those, despite my hope. Apparently, Hayabusa 2's budget will come from several different sources, if approved in the end. Again, these were so inconclusive and that is the reason why I did not bother to upload anything.

My gut feeling is that 2 will go as planned. Because, part of the budget may come from "Vivacious Japan!", or something like it as it is called. Anyway, it is good that something came back from Itokawa and I am keely aware of NASA support (DSN) without wich Hayabusa would not have made it back home at all. They are even now supporting Alatsuki's location!, when they have so many of their own crafts to look after out there! So, thank you very much, NASA!

Pandaneko



Posted by: pandaneko Nov 18 2010, 09:18 AM

There was another short article today in the Asahi newspaper. What follows is my translation.

"JAXA reported to the Sapce Activities Commision (SAC) yesterday (17 November) that there were 50 to 60 larger grains in the first container, of which 3 are known to be alminium particles. They are of the size 0.1 mm to 0.01 mm and large enough to detect amino acid, if there is any. These larger grains are in addition to 1500 grains of smaller size reported so far.

According to the report these larger ones were found under optical microscope and picked up by a very thin needle, one by one. They are also thought to be of Itokawa origin.

Amino acid has been found on meteorites and US samples from the comet they visited. If amino acid is found on these larger grains, then amino acid seems to exist just about everywhere in the solar system, in the Martcian soils and the subterranean lake of Jupiter's satelite, meaning that there could be microbials in those places.

Hayabusa's remaining container had a better condition on crush landing for grain retrieval and even larger grains can be expected from this container. Prof Akio Fujimura of ISAS (JAXA) said that larger ones will be humanity's treasure and how to analyse them will be treated separately from the analytical scheme for those 1500 grains found so far in the first container."

Pandaneko

Posted by: Astro0 Nov 18 2010, 09:27 PM

Pandenko: I am keely aware of NASA support (DSN) without wich Hayabusa would not have made it back home at all...

Shucks, it twernt nuthin' smile.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Nov 21 2010, 09:27 AM

QUOTE (Astro0 @ Nov 19 2010, 06:27 AM) *
Pandenko: I am keely aware of NASA support (DSN) without wich Hayabusa would not have made it back home at all...

Shucks, it twernt nuthin' smile.gif laugh.gif


I learnt today (21 November) in Nihon Keizai newspaper here that it was a NASA researcher who persuaded Prof Kawagauchi to let the news on Itokawa grains made public at this stage. Prof Kawaguchi innitially thought that the confirmation announcment can be made after the SPRING-8 analysis in January next year.

He has been critisied a lot about Hayabusa affairs in the press.

However, the NASA researcher told him that it was obvious that 1500 grains were from Itokawa and that the world should know about them as soon as possible.

It makes me think...

Pandaneko

Posted by: nprev Nov 21 2010, 10:09 AM

Hmm. Pandaneko, it might make you feel better to know that public relations has frequently been an ongoing problem for many space projects (from many nations & organizations) worldwide.

Scientists are not necessarily aware of the need to publicize their results in a popular format in order to keep the public who pays for their research informed and also to promote interest in & support for future or follow-on missions. They often have had no training in public relations, and no exposure at all to the press or the processes by which budgetary priorities are assigned.

It sounds to me as if this is the situation with Prof Kawagauchi, who has almost certainly spent his entire career in a fairly sheltered academic environment in which he was strongly motivated to not publish early findings in order to avoid both erroneous results (at the level of rigorous scientific evaluation) and also inadvertently providing a competitive advantage to his peers. This reflex is undoubtedly difficult for him to overcome in many ways but it seems that his NASA associate is somewhat more sophisticated in these matters, which is fortunate for us and for him in the long run if there is to be a Hayabusa 2 under his leadership.

In any case, that's my take on the situation as you described it. Thank you again for continuing to keep us informed; your insights are always interesting and valuable! smile.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Nov 21 2010, 01:16 PM

Re Prof Kawaguchi, re Hayabusa re-entry, re post landing analysis I vividly remember a few things as I saw reported in the press.

When radio contact was lost those graduate students at ISAS control room started drifting away, the main workforce in there, not wanting to come back as there was nothing more to do. Then, Prof Kawaguchi, left alone, started calculating the probablity of regaining contact with Hayabusa. He must have been lonely...

You need two anttena alignments, I think, first to get the command from here, and the second for answering back. His calculated probability, and I do not remember it well now, was small, but with that he persuaded students to keep sending out commands. I can well imagine their excitments when a spike appeared on their screen after so many repeated attempts.

Secondly, I was shocked to read that the capsule was to be released from halfway between the Moon and us. I thought it was crazy. I remember the relative release velocity, 1 cm/second and they had only 7,8 hours before re-entry? However, they looked so close to each other when they re-entered. The landing precision must have been due to NASA's mighty accurate calculation. I can think of nothing else, really.

Thirdly, they are now talking about slicing those tiny grains. I wish somebody could tell me how that might be done. Slicing rocks is normally done with diamond dusts coated discs. You cannot use them with those tiny grains, can we? Lasers? Whatelse? I am intrigued, really...

Pandaneko

Posted by: marsbug Nov 21 2010, 11:09 PM

Hi Pandaneko http://www.imec.be/efug/EFUG10.html is one possible approach, and can be applied to stuctures on the order of hundreds of nanometers.

Posted by: pandaneko Nov 22 2010, 10:53 AM

Thanks, read this with much interest. I was at Imperial, many many moons ago!

Pandaneko

Posted by: Paolo Nov 22 2010, 07:50 PM

An interesting http://www.jaxa.jp/article/special/hayabusareturn/yoshikawa01_e.html on Hayabusa 2. It turns out the cratering experiment will use explosives. I am wondering what kind of sample contamination this could create...

Posted by: centsworth_II Nov 23 2010, 09:31 AM

Yikes! Just saw this on http://twitter.com/astro0_umsf/status/27112611635 Spirit http://www.photobomb.net/ Professor Kawaguchi!



Posted by: pandaneko Nov 29 2010, 12:43 PM

Can 2's news just in, by the Yomiuri newspaper.

Hundreds of larger grains were found in there, 0.1mm to 0.01mm. JAXA announced this on 29th November.

They are apparently much larger than those already found in can 1 (except those 60 large grains in can 1). They turned the second can upside down and gave it a slight shock and those grains dropped out! It must mean they are large? and heavy enough?

They are thought to be from Itokawa, mostly, and they will undergo EM analysis.

Pandaneko

Posted by: centsworth_II Nov 29 2010, 04:07 PM

Fantastic! What a mission this has been! All the engineering challanges overcome, the science data collected at Itokawa, and now the mission will live on for years as this rich haul - given the circumstances - is investigated.

Posted by: nprev Nov 30 2010, 01:47 AM

YES!!! biggrin.gif

Very encouraging. There may be a considerable number of decent-sized grains still within the container, stuck to the sides electrostatically.

Too bad so many people left the theatre before the credits started rolling; looks like they're gonna be the best part! wink.gif


Posted by: brellis Nov 30 2010, 03:02 AM

Sounds like some of the grains are big enough to look Itokawan to the naked eye! smile.gif

Posted by: nprev Nov 30 2010, 05:12 AM

Interesting http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20101129p2g00m0dm013000c.html from Japan's Mainichi Daily News:

-Apparently, a software (command?) error may have placed the sampling pellet gun in safe mode & prevented firing.

-Approx. 1500 particles recovered to date; not sure if that includes those announced yesterday from the second canister (bit I doubt it.)

Posted by: pandaneko Nov 30 2010, 12:49 PM

Fristly, a little moe info, at JAXA they are apparently very pleased that those larger grains, each of them can be separately put into a glass tube for transporting them to international communities.

Secondly, we will know the fate of Hayabusa 2 next month when they announce the outline for next year's budget.

Now, I have got some new ideas for grabbing the grains for Hayabusa 2. I talked about sticky tapes and magnets earlier. My new ideas are,

1. A slab of dry ice with lots of holes in it and when placed on the ground we vacuum clean the surface. I understand the gound is hot enough.

2. A rod with a gap at the top, the top end may be of metal, but the rest may be plastic or rubber made so that when the rod is stuck into the ground grains may be trapped between the two pressing members. Am I going crazy?

Pandaneko

Posted by: tasp Nov 30 2010, 02:22 PM

Just speculating here, but maybe if they use another ion drive, they might use it to charge dust particles all over the surface of the second target, and by rewiring the ion drive, use the collection container(s) as the neutralizing electrode to draw small particles from maybe an entire hemisphere for collection?

You wouldn't get anything big, but you would get particles from a wide area. The particles they have now seem pretty scientifically useful, would grams (hopefully) of that stuff be a suitable mission result?

Posted by: dilo Nov 30 2010, 04:32 PM

Cool idea, tasp! wink.gif

Posted by: centsworth_II Nov 30 2010, 04:54 PM

I remember reading that the reason a projectile method was used is that any method relying on collecting loose material would come up empty if the probe landed on an area devoid of loose, small-grained material. Even if there is a layer of loose grains to collect, a projectile would dig up underlying material and maybe knock a few chips off of a solid surface for a wider variety of sample.

Posted by: Paolo Nov 30 2010, 06:20 PM

I don't understand http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20101130p2g00m0dm016000c.html

QUOTE
The new particles were found after scientists turned over and tapped the container before going to work on other compartments of the capsule, the agency said.


does it mean that the second compartment has still not yet been open?

Posted by: Leither Nov 30 2010, 08:21 PM

QUOTE (Paolo @ Nov 30 2010, 06:20 PM) *
I don't understand [url="http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20101130p2g00m0dm016000c.html"]this report[/url
does it mean that the second compartment has still not yet been open?


I would agree. My reading is that they have yet to open sample catcher B. The newly found grains having just fallen off when they turned it over to get access to the screws securing the lid to catcher B. Without details of the tolerances between the rotating sleeve mechanism and the body of the capsule, it's not possible to know whether the 0.1 mm grains may have come from catcher B or were on another part of the capsule. Whichever, it bodes well that sample catcher B will have even larger grains, as expected.

What a mission, what a remarkable achievement! And lots more to come...!!!

Posted by: centsworth_II Nov 30 2010, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Nov 29 2010, 07:43 AM) *
Can 2's news just in, by the Yomiuri newspaper.

Hundreds of larger grains were found in there, 0.1mm to 0.01mm. JAXA announced this on 29th November...

Help! We are in a state of confusion! laugh.gif

The http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/science/T101117003959.htm I see online is from Nov. 18 and says,

"...space agency officials are now saying larger particles in the probe's capsule also are likely from the distant body.
The larger particles, measuring about 0.1 millimeter in diameter, were found in the same canister that contained the
smaller particles confirmed to be from Itokawa."

The latest I see from the JAXA English site is the Nov. 16 announcement about the 1500 small particles.



Posted by: pandaneko Dec 1 2010, 08:28 AM

Help! We are in a state of confusion! laugh.gif

Pandaneko offers his deepest apologies for the confusion. I am so sorry...

I have re-read the Yomiuri article once again and it seems that these larger grains came from the same first container, when they tapped it. It looks as if the second container has not yet been opened. Again, my deepest apologies...

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Dec 1 2010, 08:45 AM

Pandaneko is also confused a lot, because JAXA said that the second container was going to be opened some time last week.

I think what happened is perhaps this. They had been meticulously cataloging the grains in the first container (1500 EM size grains and 60 OM size grains), and when they were satisfied with all these results they just happend to give it a shake and it produced a lot more larger grains.

So, the planned opening of the second container was suddenly had to be postponed, I think... That is my guess at the moment, and that might mean we may find yet even larger grains in the second container. I am not too familiar with the details of these container structure.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Dec 1 2010, 08:52 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Dec 1 2010, 05:45 PM) *
Pandaneko is also confused a lot, because JAXA said that the second container was going to be opened some time last week.

Pandaneko



But, does not all this mean that at JAXA they did not know what they should have been doing and looking for in the first place? I am cross with them...

Pandaneko


Posted by: pandaneko Dec 1 2010, 10:32 AM

I confirm, from reading another newspaper artticle here, that those hundreds of larger grains come from the first container.

Apparently, before moving on to the second, they simply tapped the first can just in case and the larger grains just fell out like that. The thing is that when they first looked at the inside of the first container they did not bother to do that because the inner surface looked empty. They had talked about this idea of tapping the can before opening it, but they did not bother to do that because they thought there was nothing in there by the look of it.

So, the second can is still closed.

Pandaneko


Posted by: centsworth_II Dec 1 2010, 01:09 PM

Thanks, Pandaneko, for all the help. It is difficult trying to understand what is happening from news reports. We all know how incomplete and sometimes flat out erroneous they can be. I hope you keep checking the JAXA site for stuff that might not show up on the English version. Are there any discussions going on in Japanese space enthusiast blogs/forums concerning this?

It is hard to envision so much attention being paid to microscopic particles in the container over a long period of time only to be surprised(?) by finding much larger particles.

Posted by: AndyG Dec 1 2010, 01:30 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Dec 1 2010, 08:45 AM) *
...they just happend to give it a shake and it produced a lot more larger grains.


I have this technique off pat with near-empty coffee jars. rolleyes.gif

Andy

Posted by: brellis Dec 1 2010, 02:25 PM

After such a complex technological achievement, poor Hayabusa gets a pat-down! laugh.gif

Posted by: hendric Dec 1 2010, 08:52 PM

Wouldn't it be hilarious, if after all this delicate searching, they open the other sample container and a few dozen grams of particles are just sitting there, up to several mm in size?

Posted by: elakdawalla Dec 1 2010, 10:44 PM

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20101201b4.html
Kyodo news

Posted by: pandaneko Dec 2 2010, 11:14 AM

QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Dec 1 2010, 10:09 PM) *
I hope you keep checking the JAXA site for stuff that might not show up on the English version. Are there any discussions going on in Japanese space enthusiast blogs/forums concerning this?


I am afraid I do not know of any blogs/forums. I do not even check up on JAXA website as they are very slow. For instance, just before uploading this I had a quick look and there was nothing about these newly found grains. Newspaper digests are much quicker and I check form them every hour during the evenings.

You may actually wish to check on;

The Japan Times, Daily Mainichi, Asahi Evening News, Daily Yomiuri, Nikkei (something, I do not remember)

These are all in English and must be more accurate than my translations. I myself do not check on those, really.

Pandaneko

Posted by: centsworth_II Dec 2 2010, 01:59 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Dec 2 2010, 06:14 AM) *
You may actually wish to check on;
The Japan Times, Daily Mainichi, Asahi Evening News, Daily Yomiuri, Nikkei (something, I do not remember)
Thanks. Ashi had a good, short review of the situation. Apparently there was a JAXA news conference on Nov. 29. Too bad we don't see a Jaxa news release and have to rely on news accounts. But the various accounts seem to agree on the basic points. One new bit I got from the Ashi account is about the complexity of the compartment and need for a variety of specialized instruments to remove particles. Before this I had envisioned a smooth-walled cylinder whose walls were wiped clean with the curved spatula seen in the previous JAXA release. Amazing that they worked so hard retrieving those 1500 microscopic particles and all the while a trove of larger particles lay hidden in what nooks and crannies I can't imagine.

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201011300334.html
The complicated interior structure made the work extremely difficult, involving the use of very thin needles to dislodge the particles individually and specifically designed spatulas to gather each fragment. They could find no more dust in one of the two small compartments in the capsule. Before proceeding to the other compartment, however, the scientist in charge turned the capsule upside down and tapped it to make sure nothing remained.

Out came hundreds more particles.

At a Monday news conference to announce the latest findings, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) scientist Toshifumi Mukai said, "We may have discovered many particles more quickly if we had used this method from the very beginning."

Posted by: MahFL Dec 2 2010, 02:12 PM

The old saying "hit it with a hammer" comes to mind...... :rolleyes
Needless to say a 1 million yen hammer.........

Posted by: stevesliva Dec 2 2010, 04:28 PM

QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Dec 2 2010, 09:59 AM) *
Amazing that they worked so hard retrieving those 1500 microscopic particles and all the while a trove of larger particles lay hidden in what nooks and crannies I can't imagine.

There's a photo here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10519895

Posted by: centsworth_II Dec 2 2010, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (stevesliva @ Dec 2 2010, 11:28 AM) *
There's a photo here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10519895
Comparing that photo with the latest showing the semi-circular spatula inside the sample compartment, I see nothing to indicate the relationship between the two. On the left, is that just an opening in the exterior of the return capsule through which the sample canister is accessed , with the sample canister still out of sight? Are large clumps seen in the left image obvious terrestrial contaminants from the landing?


Posted by: centsworth_II Dec 5 2010, 08:11 AM

This is one possibility I see for a relationship between the two images.

Looks like a cylinder within a cylinder, seen on the left along the cylinder axis and on the right from the side.
I've colored what might be the larger, outer cylinder in both images orange and what might be the smaller,
inner cylinder in both images purple. If this is the case, the left image looks like it is exterior to the actual
sample area. The clumps of material in there are much larger than any actual sample described so far.
They look to be over a mm in size.

The image on the right looks like it might be an open access port into the side of the cylinder arrangement,
into the actual sample area.

This may be totally off but it is the only relationship I have been able to make out between the two images,
if there is a relationship between them at all.


Posted by: pandaneko Dec 13 2010, 11:17 AM

Second container was opened today, 13 December, and there nothing to be seen inside. More news will have to follow, of course, but there you are...

Pandaneko

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Dec 13 2010, 03:14 PM

Good thing they didn't open it on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P84OKTUx6LY

Posted by: pandaneko Dec 14 2010, 08:44 AM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Dec 14 2010, 12:14 AM) *
Good thing they didn't open it on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P84OKTUx6LY


In responce to this what follows is my translation, but there is another news on the first container. I will translate that as a separate short article, larger grains found amongst those hundreds found in A.

JAXA opened B, they also examined 20 or so of larger grains from A by EM. B was opened on 7 December and the expectation was that long staying time might have taken in more larger grains, but by the first look of it things are not that drastic, it said.B

Outilne of B:

Its structure is more complicated than A and OM will be used to examine it, but tapping of it is expected in later stage just in case.

In the meantime, EM operation is going on with those newly found hundreds of grains. Right now, about 20 of them have been subjected to EM, and about half ogf them are rocky, other are capsule materials.

Those rocky ones are 30 micron at minimum and larger ones are at about 100 micron.

Analysis scheduling of A grains will be decided depending on the result of B, going pararell (A and cool.gif and hoping to announce, by the year end, what all these mean.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Dec 14 2010, 08:50 AM

JAXA announced on 13 December that from the first container another 10 new larger grains have been found. They are all of rocky nature.

Pandaneko

Posted by: elakdawalla Dec 14 2010, 05:31 PM

Pandaneko, is this information on the Web anywhere (it's OK if it's in Japanese, I'm just looking for a source to link to)? Or did you get it from a print newspaper?

Posted by: pandaneko Dec 15 2010, 08:21 AM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Dec 15 2010, 02:31 AM) *
Pandaneko, is this information on the Web anywhere (it's OK if it's in Japanese, I'm just looking for a source to link to)? Or did you get it from a print newspaper?


I am afraid I do not remember the source. It is one of the web site news provided by various newspaper groups here. Perhaps, Mainichi Daily, Asahi Evening news, Sankei, Daily Yomiuri, etc. etc. Anyway, I came across it last evening, I think.

No, I did not get it from a printed newspaper. I check, every evening, at least 3 times, half a dozen Web clip news provided locally before I fall asleep.

Pandaneko

Posted by: Tesheiner Dec 24 2010, 10:26 AM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Dec 24 2010, 10:15 AM) *
I have got this feeling that we may shift this topic into Hayabusa 2 which already exsists. The reason is that Hayabusa 1's news will continue to come in, I think, in the next year and it might become confusing to talk about the two within the same stream...

Done. Further discussions on Hayabusa 2 http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=4920&view=getlastpost, please. smile.gif

Posted by: pandaneko Dec 27 2010, 01:24 PM

This news just in from today's Mainichi newspaper in Japanese

JAXA announced on 27 December that they will start initial analysis during the latter half of Januray next year.

They will be looking at larger grains. Preliminary analysis shows that there is a possibility of carbon with these grains.

Those 1500 grains reported about earlier were very small and handling them was producing problems. 

Then, in mid November, tapping the inverted container produced hundreds of larger grains (maximum size: 0.1 mm) and of these 40 were subjected to preliminary analysis and they found that 30 of them were thought to be from Itokawa.

Therefore, JAXA judged that with these they will be able to perform "initial analysis". Initial analysis will be done by a few domestic institutions by next summer.

Pandaneko

Posted by: MahFL Dec 27 2010, 02:32 PM

I wonder what the preliminary analysis consisted of ?

Posted by: pandaneko Dec 27 2010, 03:25 PM

I am not too sure about this article, from Kyodo Tsushin (2010/12/27 23:50) which I just came across now. It is so confusing.

Anyway, it says;

On 27th December JAXA announced that another one hundred or so grains were found. It says that whether or not these are from Itokawa is uncertain, but there are enough number of grains by now to be distributed for analysis.

Apparently, these grains were found by inverting the container's different section (it does not mention tapping). Initially, no visible grains were found in this container (or, section), but inverting it produced so many grains of up to 0.1 mm in size.

Now, we have heard a similar story with the first container. This is the limit to my translation ability. However, the time stamp may mean that they are actually talking about the second container's new findings, when they say "different section".

I am very, very unsure about this news.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Dec 28 2010, 12:28 PM

QUOTE (pandaneko @ Dec 28 2010, 12:25 AM) *
I am not too sure about this article, from Kyodo Tsushin (2010/12/27 23:50) which I just came across now. It is so confusing.

Anyway, it says;

On 27th December JAXA announced that another one hundred or so grains were found. It says that whether or not these are from Itokawa is uncertain, but there are enough number of grains by now to be distributed for analysis.

Apparently, these grains were found by inverting the container's different section (it does not mention tapping). Initially, no visible grains were found in this container (or, section), but inverting it produced so many grains of up to 0.1 mm in size.

Now, we have heard a similar story with the first container. This is the limit to my translation ability. However, the time stamp may mean that they are actually talking about the second container's new findings, when they say "different section".

I am very, very unsure about this news.

Pandaneko


I can now confirm from Yahoo's quote from the Yomiuri newspaper (21:40 27 Dec) that these one hundred grains are from the second container. These grains range from 0.01 mm to 0.1 mm. International proposals will be invited before next summer, it also said.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jan 18 2011, 08:36 AM

There is an article about Hayabusa grains in today's (18 January) Asahi newspaper. According to it:

JAXA announced on 17 January that they will start distributing some of the grains to 8 universities across the country, inlcuding Osaka and Kyushu universities.

Analysis will also start on 21 January at SPRING 8, which is a shynclotron radiation facility just west of Kobe. Analyses will take a few months and will form the database for inviting international proposals for further analysis.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jan 23 2011, 08:44 AM

This news just in from the Nikkei newspaper, dated 23 January 2010. My translation follows below.

Osaka University and the SPRING-8 fascility started analysis of Itokawa grains on 22nd January. The analysis scene was opened to the press. They will be using X-ray computer tomography to look into the internal structure of these grains (0.03mm to 0.1 mm in size).

The number of grains they are looking into is about 40 and 12 members of Osaka University's postgraduate students will be working on these grains, day and night (24 hours non-stop, P)

X-ray CT can resolve down to 300 Nm. With each grain 40 minutes will be spent to produce 1800 images, by rotating the grain each time through 0.1 degree.

If certain types of elements were found (and I cannot find the word for this, but it is a combination of phosphorous and calcium, P) another team will further study the grain.

Their studies will be able to relate earth found meteorites to asteroidal grains.

Prof Akira Tsuchiyama of Osaka University said that they would be doing their utmost to get the most out of these grains as scientists, in response to the efforts of Hayabusa engineers

Analysis at SPRING-8 will continue until 26th January and after that the grains will be transported to High Energy Physics Research Institute in Tsukuba (near Tokyo), and after that grains will be moved to Hokkaido and Kyushu Universities to continue working on them.

The whole analysis will be finished in June of this year.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jan 23 2011, 01:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=07aO8RO6Juk

Above is the URL of the movie at the SPRING-8 analysis site, just starting today (or, yesterday). The fellow at the end of this brief movie is the Osaka University prof, I think. You can see a beam line. Not that terribly interesting, just merely to show actions are being taken.

Pandaneko

Posted by: pandaneko Jan 24 2011, 01:54 PM

Further information on Itokawa grains analysis, put together by me from various sources on the web.

After an initial structural analysis at the SPRING-8, where they basically used a scanner like MRI used in medical world (I had one on my hip about a few weeks ago) and that simply returns sliced images of the internal structure of the grains, just true images of the inside of these grains, the grains will be moved to the Photon Factory of the High Energy Accerleration Research Organisaion (KEK) in Tsukuba near Tokyo.

KEK analysis is from 09:00 on 28 January to 09:00 on 3 February under the direction of Prof Tomoki Nakamura of Tohoku University. He also worked on the samples returned by NASA Star Dust probe in 2007. I am sure that many his postgraduate students will be driven to their extremes, 24 hours a day.

The beam line to be used at KEK is BL-3A with the beam energy of 6 KeV at wavelength of 2.1 Amgstrong. Two methods, one is the X-ray diffraction pattern analysis and the other X-ray fuluorescent analysis.

Beam intensity is high at 10 to the 17 photons/sec/mm*2/mrad*2/0.1% b.w, actually this intensity is very, very high as far as I know.

After analysis at KEK the grains will be moved to universities and all analyses will be finished by the end of June.

Pandaneko

Posted by: nprev Jan 25 2011, 01:41 AM

Thank you yet again for your terrific reporting & efforts, Pandaneko! smile.gif We wouldn't know ANYTHING about what was going on without you.

Sounds like a very rigorous analytical campaign is beginning. We should know positively whether at least some of the grains are from Itokawa in relatively short order, I'd imagine.

Posted by: pandaneko Feb 6 2011, 01:01 PM

What follows is the news provided by one female PhD student of the Tohoku University team who just finished analysis at the Photon Factory of KEK near Tokyo. My translation is;

4 Feb 2011

Analysis completed! Outstanding result!

Our beam time at the Factory came to an end in the morning of 4 February. Our one week at the Factory has been 24 hours a day operation. How actually experiments were conducted will be provided little by little from now on. Today, we packed everything and left the Factory to get back to our university in the far north.


Prof Tomoki Nakamura said, with a smile, that experiments went very well and that fantastic data were obtained. The findings will be made public at the Lunar and Planetary Science Conference (LPSC2011) in US starting on 7 March.

Here in Japan, it will be given at the PF Sympo starting on 14 March.

End of translation

P









Posted by: pandaneko Feb 6 2011, 01:07 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention that Dr Michael E Zolensky from NASA Johnson Space Centre was there all the time involved in the Phton Factory analysis along with the Tohoku University team members.

My apologies, due to the fact that his name did not appear in the main text, which I simply copied and pasted, but he was firmly a member of the team from supplemental information.

P

Posted by: Paolo Feb 6 2011, 01:25 PM

note that there are a few pictures of Hayabusa samples, plus an article and a scheme of how the two sample chambers work inhttp://www.isas.jaxa.jp/ISASnews/No.358/ISASnews358.pdf.
The issue also contains an article on IKAROS

Posted by: pandaneko Feb 6 2011, 02:53 PM

Paolo

I think I will also translate the ISAS pages, because it seems simpler to do as the whole thing is all text, it seems, and I can CPO on these.

However, I will not translate all of the text, it is just too much...

I will do that after translating the science pages of JAXA report on IKAROS.

As far as I am concerend simple and primitive text pages are nothing in terms of translation. I can do a few pages in 10 minutes, I think, but if files contain structures like tables and graphs, then I will have to handwrite my translation on pieces of paper and type them out again into the forum space, which takes up a lot of time.

However, I remain optimistic about ISAS pages. How you get this sort of information...I am amazed.

P

Posted by: Paolo Feb 6 2011, 08:02 PM

pandaneko
I am just keeping track of all JAXA-related posts on the social networks (twitter "in primis") and on several forums.
anyway, I thank you a lot for the translations, but don't feel obliged to translate everything I post.
I believe that there are some documents that probably contain no additional informations to those already available. I really don't think it's worth the trouble translating, in these case

Posted by: PaulM Feb 25 2011, 08:41 PM

I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere? According to this link, the upcoming Lunar And Planetary Conference from the 7th to 11th of March will include "early science results from a Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency mission, called Hayabusa, that returned the first particle samples from an asteroid":

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2011/feb/HQ_M11-038_Lunar_Conf.html

Posted by: Drkskywxlt Mar 10 2011, 08:48 PM

Today was the Hayabusa team's day to shine as they presented their first science results. They recovered >1500 particles, most around 10 microns in diameter, but some as large as 180 microns.

The way they recovered most of the particles was hilarious. After trying subtler methods like the teflon spatula, they put a piece of quartz glass over the sample container, turned it upside down and BANGED ON IT with a screwdriver! laugh.gif biggrin.gif This actually caused the largest dust grains to be recovered!

I propose we call this "Hy-abusing" your samples cool.gif

Posted by: nprev Mar 12 2011, 07:42 PM

Nice blog http://earthandsolarsystem.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/blogging-from-lpsc-%E2%80%93-hayabusa-day/ of early analysis of Itokawa grains presented at LPSC.

Posted by: Paolo Aug 25 2011, 06:58 PM

Thehttp://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6046.toc has lots of papers on the analysis of Hayabusa samples (requires access)

and notice the cover

 

Posted by: stevesliva Aug 25 2011, 07:44 PM

QUOTE (Paolo @ Aug 25 2011, 01:58 PM) *
Thehttp://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6046.toc has lots of papers on the analysis of Hayabusa samples (requires access)


Interesting conclusion in this abstract:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6046/1128.abstract
QUOTE
Noble gas isotopes were measured in three rocky grains from asteroid Itokawa to elucidate a history of irradiation from cosmic rays and solar wind on its surface. Large amounts of solar helium (He), neon (Ne), and argon (Ar) trapped in various depths in the grains were observed, which can be explained by multiple implantations of solar wind particles into the grains, combined with preferential He loss caused by frictional wear of space-weathered rims on the grains. Short residence time of less than 8 million years was implied for the grains by an estimate on cosmic-ray–produced 21Ne. Our results suggest that Itokawa is continuously losing its surface materials into space at a rate of tens of centimeters per million years. The lifetime of Itokawa should be much shorter than the age of our solar system.


Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Aug 25 2011, 08:50 PM

Wow! Does the paper speculate as to what the erosional mechanism(s) is(are)? Likely micrometeoroid would be in the mix. Presumably not solar wind, at least very much.

Posted by: helvick Aug 26 2011, 12:20 AM

I'm delighted to see that "It is quick the ぶ" really has delivered and is getting recognised for it. Congratulations (again) to the team.

Posted by: Paolo Aug 26 2011, 07:49 PM

QUOTE (Holder of the Two Leashes @ Aug 25 2011, 10:50 PM) *
Wow! Does the paper speculate as to what the erosional mechanism(s) is(are)?


just finished reading the paper. no explanation of the mechanism is given, but the weak gravity could easily help. the erosion is also given as an explanation for the relative lack of regolith on Itokawa. only 20 p.c. of its surface is covered with regolith

Posted by: Paolo Aug 27 2011, 09:37 AM

the supporting material for one of the papers discusses the gas that was reportedly detected when the sample container was opened in near vacuum (0.01 Pa). It seems to have been a small amount of terrestrial air that had leaked through two O-rings in the preceding days

Posted by: Paolo Aug 31 2011, 05:11 AM

arXiv today has two papers on Hayabusa re-entry:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1108.6006 and http://arxiv.org/abs/1108.5982

Posted by: Lightning Feb 24 2012, 08:50 PM

I have downloaded the new Hayabusa images with geometry backplanes (here: the ddr_gaskell.tar at http://sbn.psi.edu/pds/resource/amicageom.html, and NASAview was unable to read the NxNx 16bands images. After some efforts, I succeeded to read them, it was such a pain.
I had to redevelop my own script to read those strange 32 bits. I had never seen that before: the bytes are swaped, but the bits in each byte must be read normally.

Well, finally those data are wonderful. smile.gif

Posted by: Blue Sky Feb 28 2012, 07:23 PM

Scanning Electron Microscope analysis of samples brought back by Hayabusa reveal a lot of "space weathering".

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2012/02/hints-of-a-violent-solar-system-from-asteroid-itokawa.ars

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/02/17/1116236109

Posted by: Floyd Feb 29 2012, 12:08 AM

What an impressive paper! To have such important results come out of a mission with such hardship is fantastic. My congratulations to the Hayabusa team--the engineers who brought the craft home and the scientist who never lost hope that they would have something to study.

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