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Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ Opportunity _ Duck Bay
Posted by: Roby72 Sep 20 2006, 05:17 PM
Hello all !
The next steps described by Steve :
http://athena.cornell.edu/news/mubss/
Interesting new software capabilities also !
Robert
PS: new topic because Duck Bay is the point where Oppys pancams should take the ultimate shot of Victoria
Posted by: paxdan Sep 20 2006, 05:40 PM
bingo
But I'm not really going to feel like we've "reached" Victora Crater until that first big Pancam picture of it is on the ground. Stay tuned.
Posted by: Oren Iishi Sep 20 2006, 07:44 PM
The next steps described by Steve :
http://athena.cornell.edu/news/mubss/
Interesting new software capabilities also !
Robert
PS: new topic because Duck Bay is the point where Oppys pancams should take the ultimate shot of Victoria
Can someone throw up a picture of Victoria and point out this "duck bay"? Thanks, you guys are the best!
Posted by: Nirgal Sep 20 2006, 07:54 PM
But I'm not really going to feel like we've "reached" Victora Crater until that first big Pancam picture of it is on the ground. Stay tuned.
exactly my feeling too ...
hope they take all the time necessary to test the new software as thouroughly as possible before
doing the big rim-dance
Looks like Steve's words do show quite a bit nervousness about this (major) Software upgrade:
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All of this software has been thoroughly tested on Earth, of course, but today is the first time we've used it on Mars. It's good to see everything working the way it's supposed to so far.
... but so far everything looks very good with new SW !
Posted by: ElkGroveDan Sep 20 2006, 07:56 PM
Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 20 2006, 09:40 PM
No, read it again. Duck Bay is where Oppy will arrive and take navcams and pancams of the two capes on each side. Then, on one of those capes the 'Ulitimate Pan' will be taken.
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James
Posted by: centsworth_II Sep 20 2006, 11:39 PM
No kidding! No blind drives here! Fixed distance drives as far as can be clearly seen and then hit the parking brake!
Posted by: DFinfrock Sep 21 2006, 12:23 AM
"We'll have to tiptoe up to Duck Bay pretty carefully; if those images of the far side are any indicator, it may drop off pretty steeply! We'll shoot some Navcam and a bit of Pancam from there, pick either Cape Verde or Cabo Frio for the big Pancam pan, and then start moving into position. "
-- Steve Squyres
My vote is to do the big Pancam pan from Cape Verde. That would park Oppy almost beneath the Beacon, and provide a truly spectacular view in every direction.
David
Posted by: RNeuhaus Sep 21 2006, 01:24 AM
A funny theme:
The rovers are getting older, but they're suddenly a whole lot smarter.
Hope that Oppy would obey to JPL commands to stop exactly 50 cms before to tiptoe on rim of Duck Bay.
Nervous...what happens if the metric conversion from inch to cms is wrong or the new loadad flight software has a bug! then Oppy might go into a pretty steep.
Rodolfo
Posted by: lyford Sep 21 2006, 03:07 AM
Duck Bay? Could this be a reference to the Near Rim Team Mascot?????
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Posted by: ustrax Sep 21 2006, 08:49 AM
That I don't know...
What I do know is that Mr. Squyres received http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/ustrax3/nru4.jpg sometime ago...
Posted by: Tman Sep 21 2006, 09:35 AM
You mean that is the prize! Very very neat..., eh..., hey that WOULD be really cool if so! Not only the rovers get smarter...
Posted by: ustrax Sep 21 2006, 09:52 AM
Do you see any Sponge Bay around?...I don't...
Posted by: Bill Harris Sep 21 2006, 09:53 AM
How about this-- http://www.sunrise-divers.com/liveabords/similan/photos/similan.htm ?
--Bill
Posted by: ustrax Sep 21 2006, 10:07 AM
"...naming prominent features along the rim after places visited by the Victoria during the first circumnavigation of the Earth."
Steve Squyres
Did anyone find a relation between Duck Bay and Magellan's voyage?...I didn't...There is one (Baía dos Patos) in Santa Catarina (Brazil) but I don't know if the expedition passed there...
Posted by: Tman Sep 21 2006, 10:41 AM
Would fit very well this real Duck Bay, but I don't have a clue.
Btw. Ustrax great job on the naming! 
Anno 2006 the Initiator of Victoria's rim naming was a member of... (aka Ustrax)
Posted by: ustrax Sep 21 2006, 11:33 AM
I thought that Duck Bay occupied a wider area but now I don't think so...And that I knew the location of Cabo Verde and Cabo Frio but now...I'm all messed up...
So here I am asking for some dust devil to clean up my ideas...Is this correct?...:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/ustrax3/DuckBay.jpg
To me it looks like there are some features matching there...And the ones in the horizon...Later ustrax...later... 
Posted by: Castor Sep 21 2006, 11:59 AM
Ustrax,
Here's my take on what we're seeing. I've added some blue lines to illustrate. The two blue lines on the left seem to correlate well, but I'm less certain about the eastern lines.
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Castor
Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 21 2006, 12:18 PM
Well I disagree with both of you!
Here is my understanding of the situation.
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The headings correlate well and make sense with what we see on the far rim.
I've also included my understanding of what the JPL names refer to.
James
Posted by: Castor Sep 21 2006, 12:24 PM
James,
I think you're right. You can clearly see the annulus extending further away from us where Ustrax has marked Duck Bay.
Castor
Posted by: odave Sep 21 2006, 12:35 PM
Is this the duck?
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(crop of Castor's image)
...since it's late September, I've now got this image of Oppy in camo crouching in the reeds with her Mossberg (uh, make that Mossbauer) and trusty labrador retriever next to her
[edit: switch to jpg and extend hunting metaphor]
Posted by: ustrax Sep 21 2006, 12:37 PM
James, what you're saying is that none of the high peaks showing up in my stretched image are one of the referred promontories?...So...Where are they?...
Posted by: ustrax Sep 21 2006, 12:41 PM
That is very cool!
Posted by: babakm Sep 21 2006, 12:56 PM
Having just read http://www.laurencebergreen.com/magellan.html on Magellan's circumnavigation (or rather his fleet's circumnavigation), I believe they are referring to Bahia de los Patos in Argentina (he named it in Portuguese) somewhere around 48 degrees South. The "ducks" actually turned out to be Penguins. Fascinating book BTW.
Posted by: ustrax Sep 21 2006, 01:13 PM
Thanks for that babakm!
That's it!:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/greavesandthomas/facsimile/globe_magellan.htm
I was looking for a connection in Argentina, because of Patagonia...
In Portuguese is Baía dos Patos and I couldn't found anything...
Posted by: Tman Sep 21 2006, 01:14 PM
Guess both could be right. But if they named it in the tradition of Victoria's circumnavigation, it should be called Patos Bay or so.
Posted by: sattrackpro Sep 21 2006, 01:44 PM
That's it!:
I was looking for a connection in Argentina, because of Patagonia...
In Portuguese is Baía dos Patos and I couldn't found anything...
The name (bahia - pronounced ba-'i-a, h not pronounced, stress on second syllable) is an archaic spelling of the Portuguese word meaning "bay" and comes from "a baía de Todos os Santos" (All Saints' Bay...) (Bahia is a state of Brazil...)
Don't know if it's relevant, but it seems the name Duck's Bay couldn't be any clearer with Odave's drawing of the duck!
Posted by: ustrax Sep 21 2006, 02:06 PM
Yes Bahia is archaic Portuguese but in this context (Bahia de los Patos) is modern Spanish.
In my map I'll use the names as they are pronounced locally, Duck Bay = Bahia de los Patos, Cape Verde = Cabo Verde, and so on...:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/ustrax3/victoriamap3.jpg
Posted by: climber Sep 21 2006, 02:07 PM
I was looking for a connection in Argentina, because of Patagonia...
In Portuguese is Baía dos Patos and I couldn't found anything...
I know a place that could fit the description!
If you go (much) south from Buenos Aires, you'll get to "Peninsula Valdes". There, you'll find sea Lions as well as "Pinguinos de Magallanes "(not sure how to write this but this means Magellan) where there's a collony of about one Million Pinguins. It clearly looks like a bay on the South side and that's also a breeding place for a type of Whale in the month of june only. Ocean is quite calm there. This correspond to the description. I've been there back in 1988 but my slides are not digitalised
.Well, it could be the place.
Edited : here we go :
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Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 21 2006, 04:19 PM
Here is my understanding of the situation.
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The headings correlate well and make sense with what we see on the far rim.
I've also included my understanding of what the JPL names refer to.
James
I agree 75% with you.
My discrepancy is with the left feature which I would locate just right of your proposal.
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About Cabo Verde (and I'm using the portuguese wording too
) I previously thought it would be the whole ridge to the left of Duck Bay including the beacon but, given this classification of Bays and Capes, now I believe it should actually be the first, hmmm ..., cape to the left of Duck Bay.
Posted by: fredk Sep 21 2006, 05:55 PM
Tesheiner, I was just preparing my version when your's appeared! Good news is I agree 100% with you! My image shows a few more features I've identified:
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Posted by: tty Sep 21 2006, 06:49 PM
If you go (much) south from Buenos Aires, you'll get to "Peninsula Valdes". There, you'll find sea Lions as well as "Pinguinos de Magallanes "(not sure how to write this but this means Magellan) where there's a collony of about one Million Pinguins. It clearly looks like a bay on the South side and that's also a breeding place for a type of Whale in the month of june only. Ocean is quite calm there. This correspond to the description. I've been there back in 1988 but my slides are not digitalised.
That is the Punta Tombo colony, which is the only large penguin colony on the mainland of a continent anywhere in the World. Incidentally there are some "Patos" there too, large and flightless steamer ducks, and they may have been more numerous back then.
tty
Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 21 2006, 07:38 PM
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Good to know that.
For those four features to the left (incl. bright outcrop & beacon) I was a bit doubtful about their location. Actually I was temped to place the beacon on the next cape to the left of your proposed placement (and the same as I point in my route map), but your proposal is quite convincent.
Just let me (or somebody else) do a couple of distance measurements via parallax to confirm it; or did you do it already?
Posted by: babakm Sep 21 2006, 07:45 PM
Relevant page from http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0066211735/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/102-2190684-9604137?ie=UTF8 is attached.
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Posted by: climber Sep 21 2006, 08:02 PM
Thanks Babakm, description is very consistant to what I know. Bahia Blanca is about half way from Buenos Aires to Punta Tombo/Peninsula Valdes and as pointed by tty, that's the only place where we can find out pinguins.
I love this thread. I think we'll have fun to find out the places visited by Magellan corresponding of the naming as the Mer team release more and more "official" names.
Will be nice to have this in a more general thread instead of just here in Duck Bay
Posted by: karl Sep 21 2006, 08:38 PM
For those four features to the left (incl. bright outcrop & beacon) I was a bit doubtful about their location. Actually I was temped to place the beacon on the next cape to the left of your proposed placement (and the same as I point in my route map), but your proposal is quite convincent.
Just let me (or somebody else) do a couple of distance measurements via parallax to confirm it; or did you do it already?
Hi guys (and gals?), longtime stealth reader since discovering UMSF a few months ago when we were at Erebus. Great image stitching, colorizing, rover locating and commentary, etc. on the Oppy threads. If I had DSL at home, I'd have to get my wife one of those widow cards.
Hey, Tesh, I found your misplaced Beacon while reading a local paper....seems someone moved it recently...
http://currentnewsmagazine.com/mva16.htm
Perhaps someone could photoshop it and place it to scale on Victoria's rim at it's proper location ..... on the near-rim.
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Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 21 2006, 08:46 PM
Extending on my http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=3207&view=findpost&p=68924 I picked some distances using AlgorimancerPG tool with the following results:
Beacon: 150m (aprox.) --> Match!
Left outcrop: 80-90m --> Match!
Fredk, you got it!
And I now think we are also seeing Cabo Verde. The feature highlighted in yellow (see below) is at the proper heading and at a range of 120m. Match too!
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Posted by: imipak Sep 21 2006, 08:59 PM
Monstrously off-topic -sorry- but: there's a flamenco song 'Bahia de Cadiz', by Camaron and Paco de Lucia... recorded in the late 70s. (Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about Theoretical or Applied Spanish!)
Posted by: climber Sep 21 2006, 09:34 PM
Yes, Monstrously off-topic
Flamingos are NOT ducks
Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 21 2006, 09:49 PM
Your right Tesheiner, it was late here so I took a bit of a guess at that one - should know better than to do that these days.
Right, I think it's quite the opposite in fact. It's looking to me like the capes slope downward toward there ends.
Tesheiner has already pointed it out in the navcams but here is Cape Verde in the pancams:
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James
Posted by: Pando Sep 21 2006, 10:11 PM
Yes, Monstrously off-topic
Flamingos are NOT ducks
Well yeah, and "flamenco" is not a bird either
Posted by: Roby72 Sep 21 2006, 10:13 PM
Is this the Duck ?
Robert
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Posted by: Pando Sep 21 2006, 10:39 PM
I think the one in http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=3207&view=findpost&p=68832 quacks better....
Posted by: odave Sep 22 2006, 01:18 AM
Hey, if it looks like a duck....
[sorry, that had to come out sooner or later ]
Posted by: fredk Sep 22 2006, 05:04 AM
Tesheiner, I think we're pretty close on identifying these features. I only disagree with you on the "sluffing slab", what you highlight in yellow. I think it's closer than you put it. Here's my final iteration using the pancam image:
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In particular, the Beacon (farthest left feature) seems pretty certain, and it does agree with the route map position you've given all along.
I put the sluffing slab closer because it looks to me that the next feature I've marked to the left of it is the cliff on the near side of Cabo Verde (Cape A1), and the slab appears to be in front of it.
Anyway, this is of course difficult because of the saturated whites in the pancam image and because it's hard to get accurate parallax distances that far away, and we're pushing the limits of the satellite image. All this should be clearer after some movement!
Posted by: Tesheiner Sep 22 2006, 08:24 AM
Ok, so our only disagreement is regarding "sluffing slab vs. Cabo Verde".
You are right pointing out the accuracy (or lack of it) of parallax measurements. But I think that by using the pancams [left, right] (not the navcams for sure!) and selecting point-like features or at least features with enough contrast we can keep the measurements within the one-pixel error which is about 10-15m for distances on the range of 100-120m.
I picked three points in the pancams (see below) and measured distances starting at 106m and up to 120m. This range is consistent with Cabo Verde while the feature/slab you point out in front of the cape is at only 85m, so I still think we are seeing the right (not upper) face of Cabo Verde.
Anyway, we need only a small drive to know the truth, as you said.
BTW, I agree with James that the cape has a downward slope and in that case it's about 5 degrees. Watch your step Oppy! 
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Posted by: fredk Sep 23 2006, 02:02 AM
With the appearance of the unclipped jpl pancam pans it's now much easier to see what's what in the "slab" area. Have a look at this 2x vertical stretched anaglyph:
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(Or much better, use http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/stphmkr/ to view the original L and R pans cross-eyed).
It's now clear that you're right about it's position, Tesheiner. My original impression of the slab (yellow area on your image) was that it had physically separated from the plains, with the bright crescent shaped area on its immediate left being the exposed crack face (hence my name "sluffing slab"). Now it's clear that the slab is continuously connected to the plains to the left (ie it's part of Cabo Verde), and the bright crescent is in front of the slab.
Still weird geometry, and I can't wait to get a different viewpoint!
Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 23 2006, 05:58 AM
The unpegged versions are so much easier on the eye, aren't they? I am not sure if I am seeing things the same way you guys are, especially since I am getting somewhat different distances from AlgoimancerPG. The originally described "sloughing slab" doesn't really look like a "slab" to me in 3D anymore. It seems that there are several outcrops/surfaces at different distances that are juxtaposed in this line of sight. It was suggested in the original raw jpegs, but it is more apparent now.
Posted by: algorimancer Sep 23 2006, 01:02 PM
...
I am getting somewhat different distances from AlgoimancerPG
....
At that range the error bounds really need to be taken into account, and unfortunately the farther away the target, the "fuzzier" features become, unless it's something nice and sharp like a cliff edge (in which case you might get better results confining it to a 2D calculation.
As to the unpegged versions - yeah, it's just not fair that the only recent images we get to play with are loaded with compression artifacts
; we fund the mission, they keep the good stuff until they get bored with 'em, and these pics make it clear just how extensive the compression of the immediately released pics really is. Yeah, I know we're much better of as compared the the apparently mythical ESA missions, but still. Okay, rant over
Posted by: Nix Sep 23 2006, 09:00 PM
The calibrated images take work; If there was a chance we'd get them sooner it sure wouldn't include all images..
But I must admit I'd like to see them at first instance too...
Nico
Posted by: helvick Sep 23 2006, 09:38 PM
True enough the raw uncalibrated data records could be released immediately and they would provide image processing nuts (like everyone here) with most of the data they could ever want. As I understand it the decision to release the images as auto-stretched jpg's was primarily made in order to increase the likelihood that they would look better for folks browsing them on the web.
Posted by: djellison Sep 24 2006, 06:06 PM
Scientifically - it's as fair as it can possibly be
Doug
Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 25 2006, 04:18 AM
Yeah, I don't know how many times we've debated this "release all data now, because it is public data" issue. The fact is that this mission is absolutely the last one that anyone should have any complaints about. The raw jpegs aren't perfect, but they are available in nearly real time, and they seem to provide all of us with ample fodder for the endless speculation and discovery that we have so much fun with. Those who would like to have all of the data only need to wait 90 days, right? Compare this mission's data release record with some other space missions, and then come back here to report your findings.
Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 25 2006, 05:16 AM
I wasn't sure which thread would be best to mention this in, but I have been looking a lot at the 3D imagery of the crater, and especially the left side. I want to question the identification of some features there, and this thread seems to be the one where such geometry is most often discussed. The bay between capes E and F is the one I am talking about, and the features on either side of it.
I noticed that in the anaglyphs of this area there seemed to be some distance information available from the opposite side. It is closer than most of the opposite side that we can see. I've taken James' orbiter/rover view and shifted the rover view quite a bit to the left, and then I drew lines ABC with my suggestions. Below, I placed my anaglyph made from the L and R panoramas so nicely provided by NASA/JPL recently.
Point B is what I first noticed. It seems to be noticeably closer to the camera than the bay to the right of it. I won't have time to also post the flicker gif, but that was pretty convincing, too. I am thinking this rim may be more difficult to label than we thought, but I suspect the view will improve when we get closer.
What do you people think?
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Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 25 2006, 05:54 AM
CR, I don't agree that there really is and 3D effect over on the far rim, I can't see it anyway. Maybe someone could do some Photogrammetry? As for the left section being closer, when I measure it on the map it seems to be further away than some of the outcrops near Sofi.
If your going to shift the image along that much then you're going to have a problem matching the rest of the rim arn't you? For instance, Bay F4 is now matched with a clear outcrop in your image.
To my eye, the match between Bay F1 and the bay between A & B in your image is one of the most striking across the whole far rim. It has quite a distictive 'question mark' shape from this point of view that can be seen in both the MOC and pancams.
James
EDIT: To help avoid confusion, here is the my comparison post in another thread.
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=3211&view=findpost&p=69352
Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 26 2006, 07:50 AM
James: I'm really at a disadvantage here, since I am away from home, and in Austin, Texas with a machine that has none of my image processing software. Fortunately I was able to send a carrier pigeon back home, requesting that someone find my flicker gif and email it to me.
I understand that making such a large shift causes major alignment problems elsewhere, but I haven't had time to reconcile that problem. Perhaps there is another way to adjust for my suggestion. I also realize that the 3D relief in my anaglyph was just barely visible at this distance, but I am surprised that no one else (out of the 95+ people who have so far downloaded my image) has spoken out to agree with me. The flicker gif I have available to me is over 5 MB, and I have no available software to reduce it's size at the moment. It was made from the full JPL L&R panoramas of sol 943. The most convenient location for me to host it is at my ISP's site which is not supposed to allow me space for this image, but it seems to be available so far.
I think the flcker gif is significantly more convincing than the anaglyph. I am sorry I can't reduce it's size. Please take a look at the left side. The point I originally labelled as "B" seems to clearly show a stereo effect, and to show that the outcrop to the left of B is closer to the camera than the area to the right. How else can this be explained?
http://www.ih2000.net/me/Sol943B_P2382_L2R2-B943R1flicker.gif
Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 26 2006, 08:06 AM
You just missed me at work and am now home and on dialup - but hopefully in a few hours we'll get a much better view which should resolve things anyway.
If I get a chance I'll do further analysis on the pancam and MOC images to get it scaled and aligned using the pointing data from the tracking database.
James
Posted by: jamescanvin Sep 26 2006, 09:36 AM
OK here is the comparison (just one pancam frame) using the tracking data to scale and align the images, not by eye as I did before.
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James
Posted by: Bill Harris Sep 26 2006, 09:40 AM
I'm inclined to agree with James. All due respect, but CR seems to be "one-bay off" on the ID's. I've "faded" the original green lines and added my own guesses as blue lines and dotted yellow lines.
--Bill
Posted by: fredk Sep 26 2006, 04:16 PM
I'm in agreement with James. But now with the new navcams it's clear what's what anyway.
Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 26 2006, 04:48 PM
I'm afraid that this may go down in history as one of my more foolish blunders, but I still don't understand the parallax I am seeing at point B. James' correlations were difficult to argue with from the start, and with the new set of navcams it's absolutely clear that he is correct. I've been staring at that flicker gif for so long that I am bleary-eyed and still confused by the part left of B seeming to move back and forth in front of the area to the right.
Would you guys do me a big favor and not tell anyone else at UMSF about my mistake? 
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