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Posted by: Stu Apr 28 2009, 05:57 AM

Thought a few of you might be interested in this project we're working on in Kendal for IYA 2009...

http://ksssm.wordpress.com

Posted by: ngunn Apr 28 2009, 08:37 AM

Looks great - pity it's only for one afternoon. I did something similar in our college grounds once, but unfortunately my candlewax gas giants melted in the sun! looks like your model scale is 10^10. I have made a 'paper model' at that scale which I give to my students as a souvenir of the course. The orbits of all the big moons fit conveniently onto A4. Attached is a specimen page. I can post the complete set if anybody wants it.

EDIT: That should fill an A4 page to be at the correct scale. I notice that when I try printing from the attachment it comes out smaller. No idea why. Computers -

Posted by: john_s Apr 28 2009, 02:35 PM

Good luck with the project, Stu! Is there any way to include Eris too, maybe conveniently outside some pub in town?

John.

Posted by: Stu Apr 28 2009, 03:27 PM

I'm actually working on plotting locations for Eris, Sedna and other objects at the moment. I'll probably produce a map handout sheet to give people to take away.

Liked your Saturn + Titan sheet Nigel, would be interested in seeing the rest...

Posted by: ngunn Apr 28 2009, 05:03 PM

OK here they are:

Posted by: dmuller Apr 29 2009, 01:03 AM

i remembered going to an exhibition like that when I was a child.

I was actually toying with the idea to propose to our dear politicians here in Australia to use one of the long Australian highways and their rest-stops to make a scale model of the solar system distances. On the 1600km Eyre Highway from Norseman WA to Port Augusta SA Earth would be 53kms from the starting point (if we go 30AU to Neptune). But probably it's a waste of time so I havent done anything about it.

Posted by: Astro0 Apr 29 2009, 02:10 AM

Australia hosts what is believed to be the 'World's Largest Solar System Drive'.
Actually it's multiple drives starting from a central location and fanning out across the state of New South Wales.
Have a look at this website http://www.solarsystemdrive.com/
At the scale they are using, typical drives from the Sun to Pluto takes 2-2.5 hours

They use billboards to illustrate the journey.

Astro0

Posted by: dmuller Apr 29 2009, 03:47 AM

Aaaa nice one. Never heard of it. They dont do much advertising :-)

Posted by: ngunn Apr 29 2009, 12:27 PM

Some nice links here:

A Solar System Scale Model Meta Page

I'm trying to link to it directly but in the meantime Google should find it.

EDIT
http://www.vendian.org/mncharity/dir3/solarsystem/

Posted by: ngunn May 22 2009, 03:01 PM

I have been looking at ways of representing whole planetary systems such as the solar system in single page diagrams. One scale for global radii and another for orbital radii has always been unsatisfactory. I looked at log scales but didn't like the results of that either. Eventually I hit on this very simple mapping which deals nicely with the full range of distances required. (Of course being non-linear it isn't 'child friendly'.)

I haven't yet got round to producing the diagrams for the solar system, 55 cancri and the rest but I hope to do it soon. Meanwhile I thought I'd share the formula for others to play with. In case the attachment doesn't work here it is in words:

scale radius in millimetres = cube root of actual radius in megametres

Posted by: ngunn May 23 2009, 12:13 PM

First attempt at a comparative diagram attached.

I had a bit of trouble uploading this attachment and it seems a bit tricky to open too. Can anybody confirm that the link does work and they have managed to access the diagram? It should fill an A4 sheet in landscape format. Advice on what I'm doing wrong file-wise would be helpful too!

Posted by: Stu Mar 28 2010, 11:27 AM

Many of you will remember that my astro society created a scale model of our solar system here in Kendal last year (if you don't, then start reading this thread from the beginning), which was a huge success, in no small part due to the fantastic input and help we received from Doug.

We're doing it again this year, bigger and better, of course! Here's the project blog, which I've just started putting together this morning:

http://ksssm2.wordpress.com

What I'd like to do this year, as well as just showing the positions of the planets and the major dwarf planets, is include some "side shows" along the way, too. I've already decided I'd like to show the following:

* The greatest distance driven by a Mars rover in one day (someone remind me what that would be?)
* The total distance walked by Neil Armstrong on the Moon (Phil? Help me out here :-) )
* A model of the Milky Way, showing the solar system's location

... but I'd like to show some more cool stuff, too.

So...

...any ideas?

BTW: any UMSFers who would like to come along on the day (which is Sat August 14th) would be very welcome! (Hope to see you this time, Nigel!)

Posted by: dmuller Mar 28 2010, 12:16 PM

Speeds ... though I wouldn't know exactly how you could do that. Maybe use lines of lights, or distance covered in a particular time, or time required to cover a certain distacne. Show:

Speed of light
Speed of Helios B
Formula 1
Speed of Spirit / Oppy

Posted by: ngunn Mar 28 2010, 12:21 PM

Soddit - I'll be in Shetland then. I can only hope that in the meantime WISE discovers a brown dwarf at 0.7 LY. In that case I'll buy a cherry tomato in Lerwick, stick it on the end of a knitting needle and plant it out in the garden.

Have a great event! (I'm sure you will.)

Posted by: alan Mar 28 2010, 04:54 PM

I believe it was 219.7 meters

http://marsandme.blogspot.com/2010/03/opportunity-sol-412-spirit-sol-433.html

Posted by: Stu Mar 28 2010, 06:25 PM

Thanks Alan, I just didn't have the time to check that today.

Posted by: brellis Mar 28 2010, 06:56 PM

Every time I hear news about Oppy and Spirit, my amazement expands, prolly at the same rate as the expansion of the universe!

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 28 2010, 10:08 PM

Stu, if you find something on your scale that works out to be 5000 miles away, I'll sit out on my back porch in California holding it for a live webcam.

Posted by: Stu Mar 28 2010, 10:26 PM

Deal, Dan!

Posted by: djellison Mar 28 2010, 10:31 PM

Sirius is at 5108.5 miles

Posted by: AndyG Mar 28 2010, 11:04 PM

Excellent! And a wee white dwarf companion 300 metres away from EGD would be a bonus!

Andy

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 28 2010, 11:28 PM

That is amazing. Not knowing the exact location Stu is using I measured from my home to the center of Kendal and got 5071. Unfortunately another 38 miles along that azimuth (314.07) would put me in the San Francisco Bay Delta, which is significantly damper than the Eberswalde Delta. So we may have to call 5071 close enough.

Posted by: nprev Mar 29 2010, 02:16 AM

Hmm. Might be redundant here, but how far away is Procyon on this scale? IIRC, it & Sirius are actually fairly close together (not more than 2 ly apart or so). I think that the distance between Dan & me might be too small for that scale distance, though (around 350 mi.)

Posted by: Stu Mar 29 2010, 06:46 AM

Loving the interest in and support for this project, thanks everyone! Having umsf members taking part across the world would be brilliant! I'm a bit puzzled by the 5000ish km figure that's come up for Sirius tho, as it doesn't tally with what I've got. The figures I'm using can be found here, if anyone wants a look...

http://ksssm2.wordpress.com/figures

Input from anyone and everyone appreciated, re the figures, if I've made any howling mistakes. Important to remember tho that this is very much a fun, informal amateur, project aimed at giving members of the public a general view of the solar system's scale, and not an attempt to recreate it as professionally or as accurately as, say, a museum or planetarium might, so it's not going to be absolutely precise. If, as I'm hoping, the local council are so impressed by our efforts that they ask us to make it a permanent feature then I'll get a GPS and measure it out to the millimetre, but on Aug 14th it will be less formal. We'll do our best, but this is just a bit of fun.

Posted by: djellison Mar 29 2010, 08:17 AM

Ahh - the Sun has grown from the 140mm of last year, so the 5108 miles won't be right.

Posted by: AndyG Mar 29 2010, 08:22 AM

Yes - it looks like the 1*10^10 scale (which, let's face it, is a bit digitally humanocentric) has been booted in favour of an odder number.

Andy

Posted by: Stu Mar 29 2010, 08:35 AM

To be honest, the only "scale" - odd or otherwise - is "do what you have to to make everything fit into the length of the path, so people don't get run over by a car whilst trying to cross the road to get to Pluto"

Posted by: Phil Stooke Mar 29 2010, 01:57 PM

"* The total distance walked by Neil Armstrong on the Moon (Phil? Help me out here :-) ) "

Only just noticed this... goood question. I've never seen a breakdown by individual astronaut. 'Apollo by the Numbers' says about 1000 m for Apollo 11 EVA, both astronauts combined. That might be a bit high, it can't be more than a very rough estimate. They use the same figure for Apollo 12 EVA 1.

Since the greatest distance reached from the LM on Apollo 11 was about 60 m (Armstrong to Little West Crater), or 120 m round trip, I might guess 500 m for Armstrong, and a bit less for Aldrin. But it's very uncertain.

Phil

Posted by: Stu Mar 29 2010, 02:18 PM

Thanks Phil, the 60m figure is a good one to work with, I'll probably go with that. Appreciate the input.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 29 2010, 06:18 PM

MILES, Stu. Doug and I were talking about MILES.

Maybe you should include the distance that the Mars Climate Orbiter dipped into Martian atmosphere before the overheated thrusters failed and it soared off into solar orbit.

Posted by: Stu Mar 29 2010, 06:36 PM

Funny guy

Put "km" by mistake; km or miles it still doesn't work out at the scale I'm using.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 29 2010, 06:48 PM

What is your scale?

Posted by: Stu Mar 29 2010, 06:52 PM

http://ksssm2.wordpress.com/figures

Essentially, 1AU = 17m. Keeping it simple. It's a fun representation rather than a painstakingly realistic simulation. Our "audience" is mums with prams and young kids; space mad older kids; curious grown-ups.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 29 2010, 07:25 PM

Then my home works out to be 7.6 light years from you...

Posted by: Stu Mar 29 2010, 07:27 PM

One of the most memorable things about last year's model was when Doug and I were measuring it out, i.e. tramping down the hill from the castle, with a long tape measure, plotting each planet's position. After leaving Jupiter it really hit us just how far apart the outer worlds are, there was such a huge gulf between Saturn and everything else farther away, it was a real eye opener as we huffed and puffed our way down the hill, sunshine on our necks once the fog had cleared.

I hope we can share that experience with a lot more people this year.

Now I need to figure out what to use for the scale model of the Milky Way I want to make on one of the grassy areas beside the path... I'm thinking maybe drawing the shape of the Galaxy in sand or something like that... or stones... or flour... oh, I don't know. Maybe string wound around poles is the way to go. I'll think of something, I'm sure.

Posted by: Stu Mar 29 2010, 07:30 PM

7.6LY? That means you can be...

(dips into Google... hang on...)

Hey, you can be Wolf 359!! (just about!)

You'll need to sit on your porch holding a model Borg cube and the wreckage of lots of Starfleet ship models, ok?

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 29 2010, 07:33 PM

I'll invite over Jeri Ryan to sit there with me. I suspect this will get not just the mums with prams to pay attention but the dads too.

Posted by: Stu Mar 29 2010, 07:36 PM

(nods approvingly)

I like your plan...

Tell her to leave that gloomy, tortured, I'm-so-noble-it-hurts tattooed Maquis boyfriend of hers at home tho. You won't be able to hear yourselves think for the sound of pan pipes and him droning on about spirit and animal guides...

Posted by: PFK Mar 31 2010, 09:43 AM

Excellent! My 12 year nephew will love this - I'd meant to alert him to the last one as they're only just up near Carnforth; might even be able to make my way up as well.
By the way, the back of my envelope suggests that at that scale M31 would be more or less where Uranus is - furthest naked eye planet and galaxy (?) being a tenuous link maybe?

Posted by: Stu Mar 31 2010, 10:16 AM

You'd both be very welcome, PFK.

Like the M31/Uranus link... might use that, thanks!

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Mar 31 2010, 04:46 PM

Have you contacted your local dairies for a donation?

Posted by: Stu Jul 10 2010, 09:37 AM

Just a month to go now until...

All forum members would be very welcome - might even have room for a couple of helpers, if anyone fancies joining in?

Going to be a great day I think!

(Some other events, too, if anyone is in the area... http://cumbriansky.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/some-forthcoming-events )

Posted by: Stu Aug 14 2010, 09:04 AM

It's our Big Day today! Here in Kendal the Sun is splitting the trees, and everything is measured out along the banks of the River Kent. This year our model features not just the planets but Ceres and Vesta, the present location of New Horizons, and to-scale mini-walks showing how far Oppy's longest drive was, and how far Neil Armstrong's longest walk on A11 was. There'll be information sheets, handouts, activity sheets for kids, plus a solar telescope for people to look through. The cafe at the start of the track has renamed itself "The Restaurant at the End Of The Universe" for the day, and has put on a special "space menu" for us too!

I've just been on my local BBC Radio station plugging our event, and everything is Go for a fine, fine day. So, thanks to everyone who sent me ideas, facts and figures etc. Right, time to go make a solar system...

Posted by: Stu Aug 15 2010, 09:31 AM

Full report on yesterday's Solar System Scale Model in Kendal - v hard work but a great day!

http://ksssm2.wordpress.com/the-big-day

( Thanks, NW71! )

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Aug 15 2010, 05:07 PM

I was sitting here in orbit around Alpha Centauri, but no one stopped by.

Posted by: dmuller Aug 16 2010, 03:07 AM

Sirius here, shining brightly so everyone can see, but I heard they canceled the Virgin Galactic flight again so I guess nobody will be coming

Posted by: djellison Aug 16 2010, 03:23 AM

Congrats on another great event Stu - sounds like it went down a storm

Posted by: Stu Aug 16 2010, 07:32 AM

Oh great... that means three or four hundred people are now lost between Kendal and your house, Dan...