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Posted by: djellison Jul 27 2005, 11:46 AM

As previously reported, there's a great lineup of speakers at the BAA out of London meeting on September 3rd - including MER Principle Investigator Steve Squyres.

Steve has kindly offered some of his time so that we can meet up and do a Q'n'A based on questions submitted by you lot.

Obviously - there will be loads and loads of questions you want to ask and only so much time in which to ask them - however - I'll do what I can to pick as many of the best as I can squeeze in in the time available.

There will be a write up here, obviously, and I will try and record it as an MP3 and post that here as well.

Steve's book http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1401301495/qid=1122463953/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-2078217-5689230 is published next week - and a signed copy will be winging its way to the person submitting the best question! *

If you have questions you want me to pitch to Steve, then drop me an email to doug@rlproject.com with the subject SS Q&A

As a heads up - please take note of the other speakers at the BAA meeting - and if you have specific questions you'd like asked of them - I'll do my best to try and get them in after their presentations at the meeting. The last two ( Profs Greeley and Muller ) are on the Sunday and the Friday respectively, but I will be trying to get down to those presentations as well - but no promises.

-Prof. Carolyn Porco, Principal investigator, Cassini imaging system
-Prof. John Zarnecki, Principal investigator, Huygens surface science
-Prof. Mike A'Hearn, Principal Investigator, Deep Impact,
-Prof. Ron Greeley, Scientist on several planetary missions, Chairman of NASA & NAS Mars exploration panel
-Prof. Jan-Peter Muller, Scientist on Mars Express hi-resolution camera team, University College London.

Doug
* 'best' to be picked by SS and myself on the day

Posted by: ljk4-1 Jul 27 2005, 12:57 PM

Steve's book http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1401301495/qid=1122463953/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-2078217-5689230 is published next week - and a signed copy will be winging its way to the person submitting the best question! *

Posted by: djellison Jul 27 2005, 01:08 PM

Is Squyres' book available in the USA yet?

Posted by: CosmicRocker Jul 31 2005, 06:16 AM

It's not been too easy finding where he will be on his signing tour, but he'll apparently be at KSC on August 9th. Has anyone found the schedule?

http://www.kennedyspacecenter.com/eventsDetails.asp?calendarId=192

Doug: I've sent you my questions. I'm curious how many others you've received. Do you have more questions than you could possibly ask?

Posted by: djellison Jul 31 2005, 09:16 AM

I've had two.

Perhaps no one reads the news forum

I've added a link to my signature - the ammount of yapping I do here, no one can miss that

Doug

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 1 2005, 04:09 AM

Darn it. I should have kept my mouth shut. My question would have had a 50% chance of winning the contest.

On second thought, I sent you two questions. If you were counting both of those, I pretty much had the odds locked up in my favor. Now I really hate my big mouth.

Seriously, though, I hope you've gotten more questions by now. This is a precious opportunity and we should collectively make the most of it.

Posted by: djellison Aug 1 2005, 06:53 AM

Yesterday I was tempted to call for questions elsewhere, but then I thought no - it's the people here who I want to get the benefit from this. When the article and recording is done, I can post THAT elsewhere and say "if you did something about your conspiracist kooks, you guys could have asked him stuff as well"


Doug

(PS - I was just posting at another forum, and Suzi prompty sat on my keyboard - so I bowed to her superior judgement and just clicked X )

Posted by: remcook Aug 1 2005, 04:32 PM

Great initiative Doug! Amazing how this place has grown.

Unfortunately, I don't think I know enough about the MERs to have a question ready. I only look at the general progress and the pretty pictures posted here

Posted by: Sunspot Aug 1 2005, 10:36 PM

You could ask Carolyn Porco to get them to fix the Cassini RAW website

Posted by: ljk4-1 Aug 2 2005, 01:29 PM

You could ask Carolyn Porco to get them to fix the Cassini RAW website     

Posted by: centsworth_II Aug 2 2005, 03:38 PM

...he'll apparently be at KSC on August 9th. 

Posted by: paxdan Aug 2 2005, 07:13 PM

Question for Steve:

Can i have a go please?

Posted by: paxdan Aug 2 2005, 07:20 PM

Seriously though:

Do you think you'll see Spirit or Oppy again in person?

Posted by: djellison Aug 2 2005, 09:25 PM

Seriously though:

Do you think you'll see Spirit or Oppy again in person?

Posted by: deglr6328 Aug 2 2005, 11:54 PM

Was she really as bad as depicted in Gregory Benford's book Deep Time?

If so, she really hampered a chance to put a legitimate message to the future on the Cassini orbiter, as opposed to just a bunch of signatures (of which mine is one, I must admit).

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/benford.html

Posted by: DEChengst Aug 4 2005, 05:52 PM

"Steve, I noticed that you're also on the Cassini Imaging Team. With both the MER and Cassini missions still being active, how do you devide your time between the two missions ?"

Posted by: David Aug 4 2005, 05:57 PM

no. It was Benford who was most http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:WeOXdX03zAkJ:www.christian-sauve.com/reviews/1999/books99i.htm+Gregory+Benford+porco&hl=en.

Posted by: djellison Aug 4 2005, 07:24 PM

"Steve, I noticed that you're also on the Cassini Imaging Team. With both the MER and Cassini missions still being active, how do you devide your time between the two missions ?"

Posted by: hendric Aug 5 2005, 03:50 AM

Posted by: deglr6328 Aug 5 2005, 05:39 AM

How about: "When you are looking at the latest images of a new and unseen part of Mars which was of course beamed back to us from the rovers you helped create, do you ever think of what your teacher Carl Sagan might say if he were there to ponder them with you? Do you feel that you have honoured his memory with your achievement?"

Posted by: Rxke Aug 5 2005, 01:53 PM

deglr6328, that's a beautiful question...

I've tried to imagine that myself,

Steve, after-hours, one of the 'scenic' pics on the big screen, computers humming... Sitting there alone for a minute, before the rest of the crew comes in... Thinking of Carl....



Question: given that current scenarios talk about 500-ish days manned missions, and the rovers being able to function for that long... Has this changed the feelings re: feasibility of such stuff? The fact that the rovers keep functioning, does that mean we finally 'got it' how to do things there? That we're able to build stuff that lasts an arbitrary amount of time?

Posted by: SFJCody Aug 5 2005, 02:39 PM

How about these:

Ignoring latitude restrictions, elevation restrictions and terrain restrictions imposed by EDL, if you could put a third MER rover anywhere on Mars, where would you put it and why?

Apart from the water story uncovered by Opportunity, which one discovery about Mars made by the MER rovers do you find to be the most scientifically compelling?

Posted by: odave Aug 5 2005, 03:01 PM

Similar to SFJCody's first question:

* Given that it's been harder for Spirit to come up with evidence of past water, have you wished one of the alternate landing sites had been picked instead?

Not a valid question, really, since without Spirit going there we wouldn't know what we know now.

I'm glad Spirit put down in Gusev - it's a very interesting and photogenic place. And we may not have had all of those cool dust devil movies!

Posted by: RNeuhaus Aug 5 2005, 06:42 PM

Will Squyres lead as main scientist for the present MER project as the MSL project?

I like the SFJCody and Olave questions about the 3rd MER.

I think there is a 3rd MER in the laboratory and would like to ask him if this 3rd MER will be sent to Mars soon?

Rodolfo

Posted by: odave Aug 5 2005, 08:30 PM

Good thing I blew out of work early - Steve Squyres was on http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2005/Aug/hour2_080505.html this afternoon, along with Richard Zurek talking about MRO, *and* Mike Brown talking about 2003 UB313.

I missed Mike Brown and the first five minutes of the interview with Steve. Good show though, the audio should be archived for download after 6:00pm ET.

Posted by: remcook Aug 5 2005, 08:38 PM

Talking about the book...it looks like it is Part I (or: the making of...)
will there be a part II (science results)?. Both rovers are still functioning, so that might take a while...

Posted by: lyford Aug 6 2005, 12:41 AM

I just dl'd Steve's interview through the magic of podcasting.... and the mp3s are now up on the NPR link in odave's post if you don't have itunes set to get Science Friday automatically...

Posted by: dot.dk Aug 6 2005, 05:30 AM

Ok, some Q's for the great Steve

1. IF one or both rovers will manage to reach SOL 1000 will there be any S1k bug in the software? And if so, is it being worked on?

2. Do you follow the different Mars/MER communitys on the Internet and what do you think about the general interest in the MER mission after such a long time?

Would be interesting to know the answer to the second one

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 6 2005, 06:26 AM

Thanks for the link to that audio, odave. It was an interesting interview with SS, despite a few party-crashers and other clueless people that called in. They were quickly dispatched by the adept host. Too bad some of us didn't manage to call in. Fortunately, Doug has provided this access to Steve's ear. There are not likely to be any bad questions here.

I thought I had a fair chance with the questions I sent in, but there have been some really good questions proposed. I paticularly like the ones about alternate MER landing sites, but I can't help but think that deglr6328 trumped everyone with his question about Carl Sagan.

I can't help but take a shot at an answer to SFJCody's alternate landing site question. Besides, it will give us something to discuss while we await Steve Squyres' answers to the questions Doug asks him.

If I didn't have to worry about the survival of the mission during EDL, I'd toss a MER into the bottom of Valles Marineris. It seems that would be a pretty good place to find signs of water, or at least groundwater. There might even be some springs down there.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 6 2005, 07:05 AM

It just occurred to me that since I sent Doug my questions via the email address he posted, they were not publically posted. Since we are discussing the submitted questions, perhaps I should post my two questions here.
Opportunity Question
Many people in the UnmannedSpaceflight forum see the Etched Terrain as a wasteland that Opportunity needs to pass through on the way to Victoria Crater. Some of us believe the Etched Terrain will be a treasure trove of science targets that will perhaps keep Opportunity busy for the rest of its already amazing life. Now that you are seeing the Etched Terrain through the rover's eyes, what are your thoughts on this new terrain?
Specifically:
• What different kinds geologic investigations do you hope to perform there that can't be performed in impact crater exposures?
and
• What do you expect the topography to be like as Opportunity heads further into this terrain?

Spirit Question
The fascinating rock textures and geochemistry we have observed as Spirit has trekked upward in the Columbia Hills have fascinated many of us. Do you have enough data to confidently determine if the rocks were created by volcanic or impact processes, and if so, which would that be.

Posted by: Harder Aug 7 2005, 11:50 AM

I´m not too confident my question about money & future missions will cut the grade amongst the many experts chipping in here. (Although I am not a "beancounter", honest!).

But my ten cents: I feel that the continuous presence of daily live data from Mars, near enough anyway, have substantially enlarged my world. What CNN did in the past to bring the world news into every house so to speak, did Steve & his team in making Mars a permanent feature in my daily news uptake. I watch less "old fashioned" TV these days, much less in fact, and instead I check the latest from Mars, Titan, various comets, and more. Not to mention the continuous pushing of the technology envelope whilst thinking about new opportunities & challenges for solar system exploration.

Think about it... our lives have been enriched tremendously.

Thus for me the big thing is: is how can we make the daily news from Mars a permanent thing?

3 Cheers for Steve!

Posted by: dilo Aug 7 2005, 01:21 PM

Harder, you are the first (I don't want to violate your copyright/priority ), but this is very close to the question I would like to ask!
Also my life has been enriched tremendously, thanks to the wide, fast data availability from this successful mission (thanks, NASA!)...
So, in order to make this live-update permanent, why not to send within few years a half dozen MER rovers in other exiciting places? (eg inside Valles Marineris...).
I know, NASA has other plans (MSL or sample return mission), but the opportunity to capitalize a such tremendously successful space technology is really exciting!
I didn't make figures, but I immagine that sending 4 new MER rovers (with only minor improvements over original design) would cost like sending fist two and, for sure, probability of success is high, contrary to the new planned missions like MSL which will use innovative but risky technology.
I know, this "soviet"-like approach may appear conservative, but I'm convinced is the best way to widen sampling of Mars geology while keeping excited audience on Earth...

Posted by: ilbasso Aug 7 2005, 03:52 PM

For Steve: "Have you ever browsed the unmannedspaceflight.com bulletin board and seen some of the amazing imagery interpretations done by its members?" I guess this is like asking the Rolling Stones if they ever visit their fan websites!

Posted by: lyford Aug 7 2005, 06:59 PM

My humble offerings - more project based than science I think:

1. How do you see the current anti-intellectual political climate in the United States affecting future “big science” projects like planetary missions? As one of the most public science figures today, have you encountered any of this opposition in your travels?

2. MER has been quite successful in terms of balancing public relations and
real science. Do you find that others share your zeal for public outreach? Do you think this will be the standard for future planetary missions - a policy of near real time access to imagery? Or is this something unique to the team assembled for this project?

3. Has the team considered any long term “hacks” of the rovers in order to continue to do science? Or would these only be considered as needed? If mobility goes first, are there contingency plans for seasonal site observations, or even something "crazy-go-nuts" like a full MI panorama of the entire area accessible by the arm?

Posted by: brianc Aug 7 2005, 08:24 PM

Doug

A couple of questions for Steve

1) Does he see any value in farming out research to this or other mars forums' enthusiasts, I can't imagine 100,000 images could be adequately evaluated by such a small team at JPL. e.g looking for certain rock types / distributions / clouds in images

2) Any possibility of a competition ( say schools / colleges / Mars Forums ) the prize being to 'Drive' one of the rovers on mars

Regards


Brian

Posted by: Gsnorgathon Aug 7 2005, 09:58 PM

I've got a couple of questions that are really variations on a theme. If I were clever, I could think of a way to phrase them as one question, but I'm not feeling clever today.

Given the constraints of money and mass, would you fly the same instrument package again? If not, what would you fly?

And related to that one: If you could add one more instrument (or maybe, a tightly coupled suite of instruments) to the MER package, what would it be?

Operationally: what would you do differently if you had to do it all over again? I'm especially curious to know what's tops on the "definitely wouldn't do it again" and "should have done it from the beginning" lists.

Posted by: odave Aug 8 2005, 01:59 PM

...[NPR] interview with SS...Too bad some of us didn't manage to call in

Posted by: djellison Aug 8 2005, 02:09 PM

From a dribble - it's turned into a waterfall of good questions. Lots of duplication, and lots that I wanted to ask anyway - but I'll start collating them soon into an order

To give myself time to make sure I can sort thru all this lot - the submission 'launch window' will close on August 21st

Doug

Posted by: chuckyvt Aug 16 2005, 12:09 AM

Come on guys! Haven't seen any activity here in a while, and there's less than a week left! My question to steve would be how suprised is he that the rovers have lasted this long, and how long did he expect the rovers to last. Obviously, the "warranty" was 90 sols. I remember reading an article before launch from one of the MER team members saying they were fairly confident they could get 4 months out of the rovers.

Posted by: ljk4-1 Aug 16 2005, 02:15 PM

Come on guys!  Haven't seen any activity here in a while, and there's less than a week left!  My question to steve would be how suprised is he that the rovers have lasted this long, and how long did he expect the rovers to last.  Obviously, the "warranty" was 90 sols.  I remember reading an article before launch from one of the MER team members saying they were fairly confident they could get 4 months out of the rovers.

Posted by: Marcel Aug 16 2005, 02:51 PM

I want to ask him what it is like to be PI of the most succesfull scientific operation on Mars ever

And if he feels that he could have done any better

And what he would do differently on the next assignment, assuming he'll be in a similar position on a next project, investigating the surface of another world.

Posted by: chuckyvt Aug 17 2005, 03:31 AM

May I suggest that it NOT be a question to ask Dr. Squyres?  I get the feeling he has now been asked for his views/feelings/thoughts on the surprising longevity of the MERs about as much as the Apollo astronauts have been asked about what it was like to walk on the Moon.

I would ask him if he could place two more rovers on Mars, where would he like to put them?

Posted by: dvandorn Aug 17 2005, 07:41 AM

Then go and buy his book... Squyres is very forthcoming in his book about his expectations; he was so tied in to the 90-sol projection that he got a bit, um, shall we say "high strung" whenever anything threatened to steal away even a single sol from the exploration program. He also said he was rather expecting Spirit to be on its very last legs by the time it reached the Columbia Hills.

He talks about getting more and more relaxed about things as time went on and it became apparent that the rovers weren't going to die anytime soon.

-the other Doug

Posted by: craigmcg Aug 17 2005, 12:03 PM

I'm curious about the strategy behind building ever-more complex spacecraft. Given the high cost of creating new designs, what do we give up by, say, making "n" more rovers just like the current crop and sending them different places?

I guess my question nets out to the question of wider surface coverage vs. new types of data.

Posted by: Marcel Aug 17 2005, 01:27 PM

I'm curious about the strategy behind building ever-more complex spacecraft.  Given the high cost of creating new designs, what do we give up by, say, making "n" more rovers just like the current crop and sending them different places?

Posted by: centsworth_II Aug 17 2005, 05:37 PM

Steve Squyres mentions in his book an early plan for the mars rover to be used as a sample collector for a later sample return mission. Spirit has seen such a variety of rocks and soil in the Colunbia Hills, I wonder which 3 or 4 sites would be highest on the list for sample return if Spirit was collecting samples.

Posted by: mhoward Aug 17 2005, 06:01 PM

Do you think the amateur community has a role to play in promoting the Mars missions?

Posted by: Phillip Aug 21 2005, 01:09 AM

I just realized that the deadline is August 21, so I will submit these questions prior to reading his book. These are the questions I would ask Steve over a pint:

1. What has he learned or seen from the MER that most surprised/shocked him?

2. What issue/question caused the most heated debate among the MER team and how was that issue resolved? (possible follow up: did the MER team have a similar debate as seen on this forum about whether Spirit should stop for "boring science stuff" while going up Husband Hill versus "put the metal to the petal" to see if more promising science targets were found on the other side?)

3. Which is his favorite rover and why?

4. What date does he predict humans will set foot on mars? What will be the vintage of the first wine made from grapes grown on Mars?

5. Any chance for a rover expedition to Titan?

6. Has there been any scientific (as opposed to PR) benefit from posting the raw data from MER so quickly on the internet -- have observations/analysis from the amateur community had any impact on the science conducted by the MER? Stated alternatively, is there any benefit he would tell to ESA of disseminating information rapidly to the public, aside from the PR aspects. Alternatively again, is there a down side to doing so? If so, what?

7. Does he still hope to find lacustrine materials in Gusev crater? If so, where does he think is the most likely place to find it?

8. How do the original space-based observations of Hematite at Meridiani compare with what was actually found on the ground and what does that tell us about Meridiani?

I will leave it at that!

Posted by: edstrick Aug 21 2005, 06:37 AM

I hate to be a bit complainy or something, but I keep wondering just why the Pancam near-infrared images are clearly not in good focus... as you step through filters to longer and longer wavelengths, the pictures get noticeably less and less sharp.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 21 2005, 07:37 AM

It's a wavelength thing. The longer wavelengths of IR result in lower resolution. If you want the finest details visible to human eyes, go for L7 or R1. That said, there are some things the human eye cannot see. To "see" them, use the IR filters. The pancams are amazing instuments.

Posted by: edstrick Aug 21 2005, 09:57 AM

I'd have to check pre-mission camera technical design stuff, probably published in Space Science Reviews or some such place.. That's where they often published that stuff before. I'd be surprised if the cameras were diffraction limited at longer wavelengths.. They aren't super telephotos and have much larger apertures than human eyes.. or am I missing some info?

Posted by: helvick Aug 21 2005, 07:24 PM

but I keep wondering just why the Pancam near-infrared images are clearly not in good focus...

Posted by: djellison Aug 21 2005, 09:24 PM

he highest quality imaging is done with one filter, additional images are for geological science data\context\colorizing and don't need to have the same resolution so they are downsampled. I don't think it's wavelength dependant it's a planning decision that maximises the science data returned.

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 22 2005, 05:53 AM

...
I don't think it's wavelength dependant it's a planning decision that maximises the science data returned.

Posted by: edstrick Aug 22 2005, 06:54 AM

Cosmic Rocker quotes: They say, "The two images shown in Figure 2 are from the AMOS 3.67 m telescope using infrared light. They have lower resolution than the visible-light images because infrared wavelengths are much longer than the wavelength of visible light. Telescope resolution is directly related to the wavelength of light, the mirror diameter, the mount stability, and atmospheric turbulence effects."

BUT.... the AFRL images are THERMAL infrared with a wavelength probably near 10 micrometers, not Near-Infrared, with a wavelength of around one micrometer.. which is twice the wavelength (0.55 micrometer) of yellow-green light (the wavelength of visual maximum sensativity)

Resolution is diffraction limited only if the image on the sensor is diffraction limited AND the sensor samples the image with a pixel spacing finer than the diffraction limit. Often, Imaging is not diffraction limited, but has other engineering constraints. Many camcorders have tiny (cheap) CCD detectors. They can take decent images, but have fewer square micrometers of area per pixel, are less sensative, and most importantly, can hold fewer electrons.. and "fill up" faster and saturate sooner, resulting in either lower-signal-to-noise-ratio or overexposed images.

One possibility, I'm not a silicon chip optics expert at all.. is the silicon of the CCD may be so transparent at 1 micrometer that there's "bleeding" of the image between pixels due to sheer transparancy of the chip at near-IR wavelengths.

Posted by: akuo Aug 22 2005, 09:08 AM

Oh, there was a deadline. Well I'll add these questions anyhow:

1. Since solar panel performance has been so much better when the rovers are parked at an angle (eg. Opportunity in Endurance), was powered tilting of the rover body with the rocker-bogey system ever considered as an addition to the mobility system?

2. Do you have nicknames for the rovers, like Oppy for Opportunity as used by the web forum community?

Posted by: um3k Aug 22 2005, 06:50 PM

Don't forget that the pancams use lenses (as opposed to mirrors), and therefore have chromatic abberation. I always assumed that that was the cause of the fuzzy IR images.

Posted by: djellison Aug 22 2005, 06:53 PM

Well - I'll be nice and let the questions run over a little - but 4 pages of them is plenty

Today - my copy and the best-question-prize copy arrived from the US - and actually -it's a very 'nice' book - nice paper, binding etc. A scrawl from SS will look good on there

The best question I've seen asked is regarding using different filters in L and R simultaniously to get pseudo colour of the dust devils - but there's some nice ones in here.

Doug

Posted by: hendric Aug 22 2005, 06:57 PM

With the rovers still alive, how do you ever find time to write scientific papers? Do you see your colleagues taking the data you're providing and publishing while you're stuck "behind the wheel" so to speak?

Posted by: elakdawalla Aug 22 2005, 07:29 PM

The discussion about image resolution jogged my memory about the discussions I had with Jim Bell way back in October 2003 when the MER teams were doing their first real rehearsals. He was helping us figure out the best set of images we could get of the http://planetary.org/rrgtm/dvd.html within the smallest bandwidth footprint. Originally the planned sequence included L256R2, approximate color plus stereo. (The stereo was in there because the "Astrobot" at the center of the disk was once a lovely machined 3D LEGO astronaut, but due to requirements from NASA HQ the poor Astrobots were flattened into stickers.)

Anyway, when we got the test set of images back the Astrobot had disappeared from both the L2 and R2 images -- turns out the flight-qualified label material we used was transparent at 750 nanometers! Fortunately, Jim was able to get some different filter choices substituted into the final sequence. One of his suggestions is appropriate to this discussion: "I would like to replace R2 with L1 (empty), which gives the highest resolution image detail in Pancam images. We will use a lower amount of compression for this filter to maximize image detail. The compression level will be set so that the total data volume for the new version of this sequence does not exceed the data volume of the existing version."

In other words, as helvick pointed out, it's likely that in each image sequence from the rovers, one or two -- most commonly L2 and R2, and occasionally the L456 if they are planning on making a particularly lovely press product -- are sent with lower compression. The rest, which are taken only for color information, are sent with higher compression rates -- not necessarily subsampled (though that would be another way to do it), just compressed more. When they were writing the sequences in ops during the mission they usually talked about compression rates of 8:1 vs 20:1, stuff like that, though I'm not sure if I'm remembering the exact choices of ratios correctly. This is particularly true for full 14-filter sequences that go all the way out into the infrared. A full multispectral stack of images contains in it a LOT of redundant information -- areas in light and shadow are lighter and shadowed in every image in the stack. They reduce the redundancy by compressing many of the images that are there just for spectral info at a higher rate. (Writing that down, I wonder why they don't consider ratioing the R3-7 bands with the R2 band before sending the data to Earth -- that would cut down on the redundancy. Hmm.)

--Emily

Posted by: djellison Aug 22 2005, 09:11 PM

Arhgh - those codes on the DVD's had Helen and I going nuts

You got a good deal mind you - as the Spirit one was imaged twice I think...

Sol 2 - You got a REALLY sharp L4, highly compressed L5, a 2:1 downsampled L6, and a nice L1.

If you make a colour image from the L456 - then overlay it onto the L1 - you get great results.

Bog standard L456
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/spir_dvd_456.jpg

L456 as colour over L1
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/spir_dvd_456x1.jpg

L456 and L1 stretched a bit - and multiplied
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/spir_dvd_456x1xD.jpg

One problem is that it's just short of being in focus - it's a bit too close to the pancam.

However - sol 37 comes along and we get L24567R2 - all full res and with mild compression

The 456 comes out as
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/spir_dvd_2_456.jpg

and an L2/R2 anaglyph
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/spir_dvd_2_ana.jpg

Meanwhile, on the other side of the planet
Full sized L1 and L4, but this time downsized on both L5 and L6

L456
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/opp_dvd_456.jpg

L456 x 1
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/opp_dvd_456x1.jpg

L456 x 1 with tweaking
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/opp_dvd_456x1xD.jpg


Sol 12 - Oppy got another shot

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/opp_dvd_12.jpg

Sadly - in the part-taken L4,5,7 mosaic
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/s033_nest_mosaic.jpg

The DVD isnt there - it's off to one side.

All this is on the Planetary Soc website - but it was fun to recreate it all myself as well - ahhh...sol's in single digits..those were the days



That was a fun blast from the past.

Doug

Posted by: elakdawalla Aug 22 2005, 09:28 PM

Arhgh - those codes on the DVD's had Helen and I going nuts

Posted by: djellison Aug 22 2005, 09:52 PM

Well - I can see why he might be nervous - certainly inside the 3m point at which Pancam gets nicely focused (hence the 2:1 downsizing of all the deck-pan selfportrait images ) - but if Jim says pancam will do X ...pancam will do X+1

I was amazed to find that those first few sols were using really slow UHF passes - no wonder they compressed-to-hell those first pancam octants.

Pity that the media abandons such missions early on - as the success pans were the lowest quality of the lot

Doug

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 23 2005, 04:33 AM

Thank you, edstrick, helvick, Emily, and Doug.

Well, I guess there is more to the resolution of pancam images than I realized. You folks clearly know more about the subject than I do. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me. I must admit that I am still puzzled by the fact that the L7 and R1 full frames always appear to be the highest resolution to me, and the resolution appears to decline from there as the wavelength increases.

I spent some time tonight looking at some pancams more carefully. Perhaps the longer wavelength ones only "appear" to be lower resolution.

Posted by: djellison Aug 23 2005, 08:10 AM

Here's a cunning point for you

If you can find a red LED a green LED and a blue led around - have a look at them.

You cant focus properly on the blue one - wavelength if just a bit too far over for the eye to focus onto the retina

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Aug 23 2005, 02:54 PM

Doug...

Can I still throw mine?...Please! I was on vacations!!!

1# - IF (let's cross our fingers) any of the rovers reaches Sol 1000, is there the possibility for an organized web community visit to the facilities from where
the MER team coordinates the mission?

2# - have you ever heard talking about Ultreya?...

Posted by: um3k Aug 23 2005, 07:06 PM

Here's a cunning point for you

If you can find a red LED a green LED and a blue led around - have a look at them.

You cant focus properly on the blue one - wavelength if just a bit too far over for the eye to focus onto the retina

Doug

Posted by: djellison Aug 23 2005, 07:16 PM

Really - you cant focus on the blue ones - your eye isnt clever enough to do 'different' focus on it because it's a different wavelength

Have all three lined up - the blue one just wont focus.

It's very odd - I read it on the internet ( so it must be true ) and had a try myself and it's actually true

Doug

Posted by: helvick Aug 23 2005, 08:54 PM

Really - you cant focus on the blue ones - your eye isnt clever enough to do 'different' focus on it because it's a different wavelength

Posted by: um3k Aug 23 2005, 08:55 PM

Really - you cant focus on the blue ones - your eye isnt clever enough to do 'different' focus on it because it's a different wavelength

Posted by: ljk4-1 Aug 24 2005, 01:39 AM

Squyres writes the book on Mars and the little rovers that could

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Aug05/Squyres.roving.lg.html

Aug. 23, 2005

By Lauren Gold
lg34@cornell.edu

ITHACA, N.Y. -- It has been an amazing mission from the beginning.
Getting two tremendously intricate machines funded, designed, built,
tested, approved, launched, landed safely on a planet millions of
miles from Earth and functioning nearly continuously for more than a
year and a half is an extraordinary feat.

Posted by: deglr6328 Aug 24 2005, 05:31 AM

Really - you cant focus on the blue ones - your eye isnt clever enough to do 'different' focus on it because it's a different wavelength

Have all three lined up - the blue one just wont focus.

It's very odd - I read it on the internet ( so it must be true ) and had a try myself and it's actually true

Doug

Posted by: edstrick Aug 24 2005, 08:55 AM

You *can* focus on the short wavelength image, but not at the same time as the red/green image. The eye does not have the option of mixing two refractive lenses with different chromatic abberation in order to cancel out chromatic abberation over the wavelength range it's sensative to. The short wavelengths, rarely the brightest thing in the visual field (other than the sky, which doesn't need acuity) tends to lose out in the focus contest.

Posted by: stellarlight Aug 24 2005, 06:10 PM

Hi there!

I did an interview to Robert M. Manning (Chief Engineer for JPL's Mars Program Office) some months ago. Probably you´ll remember him as you see the picture:
http://www.astroenlazador.com/mer/entrevistas/robmanning/interview.htm

Probably this could be useful for you to think about new questions, etc.

But I would be very grateful if you could ask one of them to Mr. Squyres:

Spirit landed on a volcanic rock area and had to drive more than 3 Kilometers (1.86 miles) to find important clues to confirm the past presence of water on Mars. If this mission had consisted in a static lander, it would have been impossible to obtain that important scientific information. Do you think sending static landers to Mars is still worthwhile or reliable?

(As you´ll suppose, I´m thinking about Phoenix Mission for 2007)

Cheers!

Posted by: djellison Aug 30 2005, 11:12 AM

Right - time's up - I need a couple of days to sort thru all the questions I've had via email ( like I asked ) and here ( like I didnt )


Doug

Posted by: ustrax Aug 30 2005, 11:25 AM

Right - time's up - I need a couple of days to sort thru all the questions I've had via email ( like I asked ) and here ( like I didnt )


Doug

Posted by: paxdan Aug 30 2005, 12:36 PM

Hey Doug...
Isn't there the chance of, on Saturday, on the so awaited Q&A, you being aside a computer tuned on the forum?...
That would be for us, poor exiled ones to say Hello! and Thank you! to Steve...
Humm, guess that will be asking to much...
And what about an autograph for me? Pleeease...
You could then send it to me by mail...Pleeeeease...
Humm, guess that will be considered already an abuse...
...Please?...

Posted by: djellison Aug 30 2005, 12:50 PM

I doubt I'll have t'internet access whilst in Cambridge - I'm certainly not counting on it. The end result's going to be an MP3 of the q'n'a with Steve, and an article for Space Daily.

If I'm allowed, I'll record his (and everyone elses) talks at the conferences, but at lower quality ( Mini Disc recorder with a brilliant little microphone )

The names thing is something I did for Beagle 2 when I just had a little Beagle 2 Yahoo group. I did a Christmas Card the day before landing - and delivered it on Christmas eve....and we never heard from the lander again. So clearly, it was all my fault because I cursed the whole thing.

Problem with some sort of pressie is that he's got to carry it all around with him, and back to the US on a plane.

Dont worry - he knows about you lot and how greatful you are - one of the things I'm going to talk about is the paradigm shift created by putting the raw imagery out there daily, who thought of it, how it works, what it's achieved etc etc - BUT...if you want submit to a list, then I've made a new email address

thankyousteve@gmail.com

Put your real name, your forum name, and a single line of thanks - send it to that address , and I'll see if I can sort something out before heading off on Friday. No promises, but I'll see what I can do.

Cut-off for that is mid-day Thursday GMT. (you've got 2 days )

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Aug 30 2005, 02:20 PM

Doug...

I've tried to send you an e-mail to that adress and I've received a failure notice...

Posted by: djellison Aug 30 2005, 02:36 PM

Might take an hour or two to get thru the system - but it's working my end ( i.e. I can send it an email and get one back )

Try again tonight.


Doug

Posted by: jaredGalen Aug 30 2005, 06:23 PM

I just tried it too and got this error returned to me.
It says it has given up trying to send it

Posted by: djellison Aug 30 2005, 09:30 PM

Balghgh - thankyousteve@gmail.com it is then

Doug

Posted by: djellison Sep 1 2005, 08:52 AM

Right - my list of questions is all written - it's about 4 pages long - but I've put it into a few catagories.

Pre MER

Spirit Science

Opportunity Science

Rover Tech and Rover Future

Blue Sky and the Future ( not blue sky as in the sky on mars is blue - blue sky as in imaginative thinking )

Those who def. have quesitons in at the moment are...

Me (qiute a few times ) Sunspot, Philip, Cosmicrocker, Tman, dvandorn, Cosmicrocker again, David Ellis, Ustrax, Philip again, akuo, Garybeau, Henric, DEChengst, dot.dk, GS Norgathon, George Purcell, Ron Jones, A.Spyros, SFJCody, Helvick, Avronperlmann, Mhoward, Marsman, degrlr6328, lyford, Philip again (wow, that's 3 - good questions Philip), Paxdan, remcook, and me again

Of course I dont know how much time we'll have, and I dont know how much things will change with tonights press conference - but I'll do the best I can for everybody.

Doug

Posted by: djellison Sep 1 2005, 11:02 PM

I wracked my brain trying to think of the right sort of token....none of the mosaics or panoramas that the MER team, or us lot have made are worth it really - he'll have seen them all.

Then I remembered two things. 1) SS is looking forward to MRO so he can see his rovers again. 2) He wants Bootprints in the wheeltracks at Eagle Crater ( read the book )

So I added together all the names I got - picked my favorite one-liner, but changed it a bit, and came out with this - which is printed as a 7 x 5 in a little frame



There's also a matching, identical one, but it's the full resolution simulated imaged - like this - http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/doug_images/purgatory.jpg and just Simulated view of.... at the top - so if he gets bored of the MRO simulated image, he can switch to the better view


Doug

Posted by: mhoward Sep 1 2005, 11:34 PM

That looks great, Doug! Thanks for putting that together.

Posted by: slinted Sep 2 2005, 12:30 AM

Spectacular Doug! I think that is a great image (which I'm sure he will appreciate) to represent where we've been, and where we're going.

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 2 2005, 01:51 AM

Much thanks, Doug! It looks fabulous, and I hope Steve puts it up in his office... I'm glad he knows just how much his "kids" have done for us all.



-the other Doug

Posted by: jaredGalen Sep 2 2005, 07:53 AM

Brilliant Doug, until MRO gets into orbit and starts snapping pics I'm sure
Steve will appreciate the view from his own HiRISE "Viewport on a wall"

Thanks again for the effort you put into it.
It's great to be even a small part of this.

Posted by: djellison Sep 2 2005, 09:28 AM

Right - I'm signing off for now - if there's any net access while I'm in Cambridge, then Myself and Nico will check in with a report on the talks we get to see, and how the Steve interview went

If you're wondering where we are...
http://www.britastro.org/news/items/2005008.html


back on sunday night

Doug

Posted by: CosmicRocker Sep 3 2005, 02:00 AM

Nice work, as usual, Doug.
Thanks,

Posted by: djellison Sep 4 2005, 06:40 PM

Well - just got home.

It was a superb weekend - brief overview....

Met Nico ( Nix ) at Cambridge Station at about 1500 on Friday. First of all we parked in the Station car park, I walked into the station and couldnt find him. I went back to the car, got my UMSF badge, back into the station and Bingo - he comes over and says Hi

Made a total hash of the Cambridge 1 way system but got to Fitzwilliam Halls - where we were staying for the weekend - settled in, found a nearby restaurent and enjoyed nice pasta!

Then - walked to the Institute of Astronomy - and a slight change of schedule. Unfortunately, Ron Greeley's has had family issues w.r.t. Katrina, and thus is still in the US. He emailed his talk on MGS and MODY to Prof. Jan-Peter Muller who was actually due to give his MEX talk on Friday - but did an excellent job doing Ron's instead.

Then, after the talk the conference organisers opened up two nearby observatories - one including a 12" Refractor ( the Northumberland instrument - famous for NOT discovering Neptune, but it's thought that it should have done ) - various feint fuzzies were looked at thru this and a 7" refractor next door.

We retired to the kitchen of our accomodation for tea and muffins - Nico very kindly gave me an ENORMOUS print of a Bonneville pan ( it really it beautiful, and it may well live on our Dining room wall ) as a thanks for introducing him to the long, dark, spiral of dispair that is MER image stitching

Helen retired ( very wisely ) to bed and Nico and I compared MER imaging notes till 2am

Sat - the big day - breakfast at 8am - and a little minibus to the Cavendish Laboratory. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_Laboratory ) Whilst waiting for the first talk, we had a look around and infact saw the very cathode tube with which J J Thompson discovered the electron!!

I'll skip the amateur observational talks - although they all contained astonishing imaging - and show that actually, observations of Jupiter by amaters with scopes as small as 9" are doing genuine science about Jovian storms (is there a relation between oval aspect ratio and their speed - YOU BET YOUR ASS THERE IS...sorry - you had to be there - the chap who gave that talk was...how can I put this...VERY american!!)

Carolyn Porco's talk was, quite obviously, superb. Excellent imagery, some great movies of the shephard moons - many 'ooohs' and 'ahhhs' at some ring movies. Nothing that one could consider 'new science' - except some temperature values for southern Enceladus - the tiger stripes appear to be about 10K higher than the neigbouring terrain. I put my foot in it asking about the spokes - and they are currently not visible ( as we all know ) but they are considered to be a potential feature that will re-appear perhaps late next year as the solar angle increases.

John Zarnecki's Huygens talk was superb - some superb slides that I will post in a more verbose review at a later date - all fantastic stuff. I spotted a double spike in the echo-reflection that I asked about during questions "Well spotted" said John...but it was actually an error in their interpretation of the data and isnt real. A good job that publishing in Science takes so long

I spent lunch discussing orbital mechanics on a chalk board with Nico in the dining hall at the Cavendish Labs. I didnt say anything at the time, but on reflection, I wonder what scientific breakthru's have happened over coffee on those three blackboards - at arguably one of the greatest laboratorys in the world.

Done with lunch - more observational talks, and then after more tea that was too hot to drink before the next talk started, Prof. Mike A'Hearn - the highlight of THAT talk being a potential identification of the crater from VERY processed high res data - deconvolution of which has recovered all the data ( so he said ) specifically because of the nuences of that specific design of telescope.

And then...of course...Steve's talk. It was without doubt ( and I know I'm going to be biased ) the best of the weekend - even the event organisers agreed - not many pretty pictures in it, but he is without doubt the best speaker I've seen, very funny, informative, and un-waffling. Good science which I'll be writing much of about for my spacedaily article.

We briefly met before his talk, just to confirm that I was recording it - but ONLY for my purposes of writing a review of all the invited speakers for the BAA journal - sorry guys, you cant have a listen - but if you are within travelling distance..ever..of a Steve talk....GO. Dont think about it..just GO. If it's your Grandparents Diamond wedding anniversary...forget it - just see Steve.

And then...the big one. We had to leave the lab to conduct the Q'n'A, but leaving the lab you could see that Steve was excited just to visit the lab as whilst I was enjoying Mike's talk- he'd been up to see Thompson's Cathode Ray tube...we took to a park bench on the park beside the lab for the Q'n'A, for which he was happy to take as long as it took...45 minutes nearly

Ustrax...I have your Raving Mars picture signed - but he hadnt heard of Ultreya - infact they dont have a name for the dune field yet.

I didnt get thru all the questions, but I did get thru a lot - he was SO open and friendly and fun. I have a favorite question in mind, but I'm going to listen back to the Q'n'A before the final decision.

Steve gave us so much time, Nico and I almost totally missed dinner. Helen asked one question which has arisen elsewhere before heading off for dinner... she asked why he refered to the rovers as 'she' - and he confirmed that they do, as they're vessels of exploration just like ships.

Ever since - I've been thinking "I didnt ask him this...I didnt ask him that" - but the Q'n'A itself was as good as I could possibly imagined, Steve more friendly, enthusiastic and willing to answer questions than I could ever imagine...just...wow.

Before the Q'nA I gave him the 7 x 5 and he was clearly genuinely touched - the effort was appreciated.

Got back, amazingly the college kitchen had kept something aside for Nico and I, and then Nico gave up and went to bed, whilst Helen and I were back in the kitchen enjoying a movie by some people who went to Antarctica for an Eclipse. The penguins were better than the eclipse ( clouds ) - but it was a brilliant little video.

Sunday morning - another killer 8am breakfast - and a talk by the Terrestrial Planets head of the French Astro Soc - excellent mars imaging from earth - and Prof Muller gave a cracking talk on MEX - and explained why ESA and MEX imagery is so slow....European Law. There is an excellent website out there that collates Earth based imagery from every asset you can imagine, and he and his team are desperately trying to do the same for Mars...they just need some cash. The will to spread the data is very much there, they really want to spread it about, but European law makes it quite difficult. So I'm going to see what I can do in terms of figuring out how we can make progres in this w.r.t. talking to local politicians.

Then...BACK to the station...and much easier to find was Emily No badge required! Found somewhere not too bad for Lunch and spent a couple of hours putting the entire world of planetary exploration to rights - she's as friendly and knowledgeable a person as you could possibly want to meet. We discovered that we've had some similar thoughts regarding the whole Amateur imaging community, and we're going to have a little think about things, see what we can come up with.

Then, broke lots of traffic laws in finding where Emily's staying for DPS, grabbed Nico's stuff from the college, dropped him back at the station and headed for home.

A hell of a weekend, totally shattered, but frankly, one of the best weekends I could possibly have imagined!

Pics ( Nico has embarrasing pictures of me, being eaten by an OHP machine, meeting Steve ), a better write up, and then the MP3 of the Q'n'A....lots of cool stuff this week

And THEN - I've got to review Visions of Mars, and Bill Hartmann's book....busy busy busy

Doug

Posted by: paxdan Sep 4 2005, 07:50 PM

HA! Doug, been waiting for the write-up all evening sounds like space geek heaven... big grins all round for the 'brief' overview

Posted by: Bob Shaw Sep 4 2005, 08:22 PM

Doug:

Sounds like you had a good weekend!

Is there by any chance a UK book-signing tour going on, for That Book?

Bob Shaw

Posted by: djellison Sep 4 2005, 09:52 PM

Doug:

Sounds like you had a good weekend! 

Is there by any chance a UK book-signing tour going on, for That Book?

Bob Shaw

Posted by: Nix Sep 5 2005, 01:05 AM

It was as great as Doug's splendid summary I tell ya!

Doug is as good as it gets IMO as a PR-guy for the Mer-mission, given the talks he's given, is about to do, and in daily socializing, we guys in Belgium need one just like it, and I might just give it a try

And of course Steve, I can only confirm what Doug just said, he's one hell of a guy! He's a 'rock-star' -very charismatic, yet very down to earth, err-Mars that is ..and a joy to meet!

I have enjoyed meeting Emily too, very nice person-and I'm about to join the society-for those who haven't- do so, it'll be well invested..
https://planetary.org/JoinUs.html

Talking about nice people, Doug and Helen are too in real life! phew...

But I'm off to bed now..I'm tired (though somehow it feels unjustified saying that after realizing ever so good what Steve and his team are sacrificing!)

Nico

Posted by: SFJCody Sep 5 2005, 07:40 AM

Sounds amazing! Wish I could've been there.

Oh, and

mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3 mp3

<hint hint>

Posted by: djellison Sep 5 2005, 07:47 AM

Posted by: dilo Sep 5 2005, 08:22 AM

Prof Muller gave a cracking talk on MEX - and explained why ESA and MEX imagery is so slow....European Law.  There is an excellent website out there that collates Earth based imagery from every asset you can imagine, and he and his team are desperately trying to do the same for Mars...they just need some cash.  The will to spread the data is very much there, they really want to spread it about, but European law makes it quite difficult.  So I'm going to see what I can do in terms of figuring out how we can make progres in this w.r.t. talking to local politicians.

Posted by: djellison Sep 5 2005, 08:52 AM

Posted by: ustrax Sep 5 2005, 10:45 AM

Doug...

That must have been quite quite QUITE a weekend!...
I guess we're all waiting for more developments...

I WANT MY SIGNED RAVING MARS!!!
I'll send my adress and you'll have to gave me yours for the deserved delivery of the wine-award...

About Ultreya...They're just hidding the game...

Posted by: djellison Sep 5 2005, 12:33 PM

My email doesnt seem to be working right now - drop me a PM via the forum Ustrax - and it'll be in the post later

Doug

Posted by: dilo Sep 5 2005, 12:52 PM

http://iceds.ge.ucl.ac.uk/

Doug

Posted by: ustrax Sep 5 2005, 12:52 PM

My email doesnt seem to be working right now - drop me a PM via the forum Ustrax - and it'll be in the post later

Doug