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Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes May 3 2011, 03:44 PM

Latest DAWN journal is out.

http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_05_03_11.asp

First pictures of Vesta should be taken today.

Posted by: elakdawalla May 3 2011, 07:34 PM

If you looked at the Dawn Journal earlier this morning, there was an important addition to one paragraph in the last hour:

Yay

Posted by: elakdawalla May 3 2011, 07:38 PM

I went through Marc's journals and http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00003020/. And since the Vesta phase of the mission has now officially started, I've made a new topic! Yay Dawn!

Posted by: bagelverse May 3 2011, 10:39 PM

Be nice to get an approach sequence as was done for Eros with NEAR/Shoemaker.

http://near.jhuapl.edu/media/image_sheets/snake.pdf

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 5 2011, 04:14 PM

OK, Dawn team, this is the bit where you release an image...

Phil

Posted by: elakdawalla May 5 2011, 05:07 PM

Would be nice. All they've released lately is what has to be one of the worst http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA14125 of a JPL mission I've seen in a long time. The least they could have done was to include the more recent simulation of Vesta rather than the unnaturally smooth-looking one from many years ago. And the clutter of the background with a hundred other little asteroid chunks makes me cringe.

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 5 2011, 05:12 PM

Wow, that's scary! Little bits of Gaspra, Eros and Mathilde floating around, but luckily close enough to Vesta and Ceres that they could get them in the same field of view.

Phil

Posted by: Stu May 5 2011, 06:16 PM

Ahhh... I think they're confusing DAWN with another spacecraft...

Posted by: Stefan May 5 2011, 07:34 PM

By any chance, have you approached Chris Russell?

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 5 2011, 10:20 PM

While that might look like a good idea, I should point out the mission has half a dozen people on its outreach team. Chris might have other things on his mind!

EDIT - 8 people, one of whom is at JPL

Phil

Posted by: Greg Hullender May 9 2011, 04:02 AM

I note we just passed the 1M km mark.


http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/orbits/fullview4.jpg

--Greg

Posted by: mchan May 9 2011, 05:24 AM

OMG! Shades of MCO! It shows Dawn at 1M Km or 646K miles from Vesta. Which is it?

Posted by: djellison May 9 2011, 05:37 AM

Given that the metric value is expressed to one significant figure, it's accurate.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan May 9 2011, 01:22 PM

The correct figure is 5.168 million furlongs.

Posted by: stevesliva May 9 2011, 04:22 PM

I prefer one gigameter, pronounced "jigameter" like Doc in Back to the Future. Let me know when we've done 1.21 gigameters

Posted by: ugordan May 11 2011, 03:29 PM

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/dawn/news/dawn20110511.html

Posted by: tek_604 May 12 2011, 12:39 PM

Press release from the Framing Camera Team @ MPS:

http://www.mps.mpg.de/en/aktuelles/pressenotizen/pressenotiz_20110511.html

Posted by: tek_604 May 18 2011, 07:05 AM

New website for Dawn Framing Camera @ MPS:

http://www.dawn.mps.mpg.de/

Posted by: centsworth_II May 18 2011, 12:55 PM

http://www.dawn.mps.mpg.de/index.php?id=21&L=1

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 18 2011, 04:15 PM

Hopefully we'll get another picture soon. Meanwhile, I took the first image and smoothed it from the big pixel format. No new information but it looks better... maybe!

Phil

Posted by: MahFL May 18 2011, 04:30 PM

Well it at least appears to still be there, which I suppose is good news.
Vesta is my mother in laws first name too .

Posted by: Decepticon May 18 2011, 05:48 PM

My understanding is Dawn will reach HST resolution 2nd week of June!

Early Treat!

Posted by: kenny May 19 2011, 12:40 PM

Vesta has fond assocations for some of us. It was a type of dehydrated chicken or beef curry meal we used to take camping in the 1970s...

Posted by: Stu May 19 2011, 01:15 PM

haha! I remember those! I wouldn't be surprised if Vesta turns out to be *less* dense than some of those meals...!!

Edit: here's what we're talking about...

http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/Images/ExternalImages/ProductsDetailed/82/024782.jpg?ts=634049789538

Many happy/not so happy flashbacks for Brit forum members after clicking on that link... those "crispy noodles" were harder than a tramp's toenails.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan May 19 2011, 03:08 PM

Well there's goes MY breakfast.

Posted by: MahFL May 19 2011, 05:17 PM

I liked those Vesta Chow Mein meals !

Posted by: AndyG May 19 2011, 07:12 PM

And I liked the crunchy noodles.

Makes me wonder whether GRaND will detect any Sodium 2-Aminopentanedioate though...

Andy

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 22 2011, 09:01 PM

OK, Dawn team! This is the bit where you release another image!

Phil

Posted by: Hungry4info May 22 2011, 10:55 PM

You aren't excited about this, are you?
I wouldn't think it would look too different from the previous image.

Posted by: SFJCody May 23 2011, 12:28 AM

Pictures taken now should have almost twice the resolution of the first image.

Posted by: Greg Hullender May 23 2011, 01:31 AM

Up until June, when they have pics superior to Hubble, the only reason I can see for them to take the trouble to post anything is to remind us they love us. Their resources for outreach are thin, though, and I expect they're extremely busy right now. I'm sure they'll post something in due course.

--Greg

Posted by: Explorer1 May 23 2011, 04:04 AM

And posting on a Sunday would be a big event for an imaging team, I imagine...

Posted by: JohnVV May 23 2011, 07:46 AM

Basically the same as Phil's
there is not much one can do with 16 px.
[attachment=24418:ast.png]

now some fun
the TV ncis's Abby
[attachment=24420:abby2.png]

we will just have to wait and see

Posted by: SFJCody May 23 2011, 10:06 AM

Can't wait! If you consider the imagery of Titan taken by Voyager 1 as Titan's preliminary reconnaissance, the last time humanity got a first close-up look at a body this size or larger was Triton in 1989. Exactly the same statement can be made about Dawn's encounter with Ceres, and the encounter of New Horizons with Pluto.

Posted by: antipode May 26 2011, 09:11 AM

While we are all waiting for the next DAWN images, does somebody know that the IAA conventions will be for naming surface features on Vesta (and on Ceres eventually I guess)? What 'theme' will Vesta get, and will that include the giant south pole crater? I'm somewhat surprised that hasn't already been named, since its pretty unambiguous on ground based imagery...

P

Posted by: charborob May 26 2011, 12:19 PM

Go to http://planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov/Page/Categories, and scroll down to "Vesta". Ceres is not mentioned on this page.

Posted by: antipode May 28 2011, 03:57 AM

Thankyou sir - that's EXACTLY what I was looking for....

P

Posted by: Paolo May 28 2011, 05:48 PM

a new Dawn Journal is out
http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_05_27_11.asp

Posted by: Toma B May 28 2011, 07:48 PM

These are few last sentences of http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/121728609.html recently:

However when I checked those numbers with what I already know http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_05_27_10.asp#reshaping I was a bit confused.
I think I can beleive Marc Rayman that survey orbit's hight is 2700 km and from there Dawn's cameras can see Vesta with 250m/pix. From this I calculated that in "http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_09_27_10.asp#survey" (660 km high) resolution would be about 61 m and from http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_12_30_10.asp#HAMO (180 km high) resolution would be about 16 m/pix.
That numbers doesn't seem to be right with S&T magazine's article?
So can somebody tell me who's wrong here or if Survey orbit, HAMO and LAMO hights have been changed?

Posted by: CAP-Team May 29 2011, 07:29 PM

According to Celestia, Vesta is now 3' 32,5" in diameter, as seen from Dawn, at a distance of about 540,000 kilometers.

Posted by: elakdawalla May 30 2011, 01:53 AM

Would sure be nice if we could confirm that with an actual photo from Dawn

Posted by: Astro0 May 30 2011, 10:04 AM

I'm surprised that we haven't seen any more images from the approach phase.
Sure, they might be just a few pixels and little to see but at least that's 'something'.

I wonder if the mission realises that there is serious interest out there in the public for new images - 'even if it's just a blur of pixels'.
Is there a tree we can shake?

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 30 2011, 11:27 AM

I did! Sometimes it's more a matter of people not seeing possibilities - like the ISRO people who didn't release video of the MIP descent to the Moon because it rotated too fast, not seeing that there would be other ways to do it, like placing images in turn on a scrolling map...

Here, we are supposed to be getting pictures each week. Just releasing the weekly images would show Vesta gradually growing, gradually being resolved a bit more each time, and by now there should be some variation with longitude to look at. or some colour to play with. Any number of composites and animations showing growth and rotation could already exist. I also pointed out that if they just release the images, outside people like UMSF will multiply their efforts many times over.

Come on Dawn! We're ready for you.

Phil

Posted by: tek_604 May 31 2011, 06:29 AM

For those of you on facebook, the Dawn Framing Camera now has its own page. You can like it if you wish

Posted by: SFJCody May 31 2011, 10:57 AM

If they get enough 'likes' will they release another image?

Posted by: Bart Jun 1 2011, 04:16 AM

Well I just 'liked' it, anyway.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 1 2011, 01:34 PM

tek_604, you appear to be on the Framing Camera team, right? SFJCody's response is flippant, but to ask more seriously and politely, can you explain to us why the team has chosen not to release any images since the first one? I sent a question about this to Chris Russell and he said it was part of the Dawn mission's plan not to release any more images but didn't really provide a satisfactory explanation of why you would want to keep the public in the dark about your approach to Vesta.

Posted by: Stu Jun 1 2011, 01:56 PM

I think it's a great shame we're not seeing more pictures. The front page of the DAWN mission's website declares the mission is all about "Exploring New Worlds". Sorry, but this lack of approach images is akin to Columbus locking all the Santa Maria's crew below decks and refusing to let them see The "New World" until they were within spitting distance of the beach...

Posted by: tek_604 Jun 1 2011, 02:49 PM

I can confirm that I am on the (MPS) Framing Camera team (I guess it was only a matter of time before someone worked it out!).

I am but a small cog in a large machine (!), and as such, I do not know why the mission has chosen not to release any further images.

You had it right to contact Chris Russell, and his answer would be the final (and best!) one.

Posted by: ngunn Jun 1 2011, 09:02 PM

Good analogy. Here's another. We are approaching the New World in the belly of a whale.

They clearly have a policy that we would like to see changed, a policy that we did not know about until now. Too late for Vesta maybe but can anything be done to change their minds before the Ceres approach? Any ideas?

Posted by: volcanopele Jun 1 2011, 09:11 PM

Seriously what are you guys expecting at this point from another image? For Vesta to go from a fuzzy dot to a slightly bigger fuzzy dot? Yes, it would be nice if additional images are released once its shape is discerned and again when you can start picking out surface features, but I don't see why everyone is in a rush to see more pictures at this point.

Posted by: ngunn Jun 1 2011, 09:33 PM

Yes it would! But on present form I think people suspect they are 'guarding the science' and may sit on everything until they have something like an approach movie to present, with analysis, in a press release or conference slot. If everything so far is pre-scientific pixels what possible purpose is served by withholding the images and denying enthusiasts a little bit of fun?

Steve Squyers was recently challenged by a committee of politicians who told him they would like to do more planetary exploration but asked him "Where is your community?"

Well, here we are, and we have to stand up.

Posted by: Stu Jun 1 2011, 09:50 PM

I don't think it's so much now about hoping/expecting to see anything new on images, as it is about being made to feel a part part of the mission, of the adventure, of being "taken along on the ride". True, Vesta would just be a slightly bigger blurred...pixelly...blob... but that's not the point. The point is the view would have changed, DAWN would be a bit nearer, and we were being shown that progress. Not that we have a god-given right to be (especially non US taxpayers), I'm not saying that, but the culture has changed now. Thanks to the rapid and generous release of images by the MER and CASSINI teams space enthusiasts and the public now like - and, yes, ok, expect - to be told, and shown, what's going on, just because it's the right thing to do.

I'm sure the DAWN people think they have a good reason for not being so free with their images, and yep, there's not a lot new to see on any new images, but they can't trumpet the fact that DAWN is "exploring new worlds" ansd seeing these worlds and features for the first time, then say"...but actually, we're not going to show you the pictures we're taking, because they're too sciency, you wouldn't understand them." That's the old ESA attitude. And that was kicked into touch eventually.

Besides, it HAS to be more fun and more exciting for a mission's team to know that their work is being seen and appreciated by lots of people "out here", and to get feedback from them. I just think they're missing an opportunity, that's all.

Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 1 2011, 09:55 PM

My guess is that the Dawn team planned image releases strictly from the viewpoint of impacting the general audience and not satisfying space geeks. The plan was set who-knows-how-long ago and I guess it's not about to change. But it would be nice at least to know what it is.

Posted by: volcanopele Jun 1 2011, 10:06 PM

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see more images released from this mission, but I still don't understand the uproar at THIS point. I understand what you are saying about wanting to follow Dawn's journey to Vesta, but quite frankly, from my understanding the pictures taken now wouldn't look all that different from the one they already released. Now of course, once Dawn gets much closer and features are resolved, I would clambering right along with you guys to see more.

But I think that for the time being, patience is needed with the camera team. Nothing wrong with voicing your desire to see more images because that helps to arm the E/PO folks on the mission with ammunition to take to the mission leads of the public interest in the project, though.

Posted by: ngunn Jun 1 2011, 10:13 PM

As Phil Stooke pointed out earlier space geeks can act as an ampifier, increasing the impact on the general audience at no expense to the project. This applies equally to image magicians and educators. They are missing a trick, no doubt about it. Centsworth: I don't agree that minds can't be changed by sympathetic criticism.

Posted by: Stu Jun 1 2011, 10:13 PM

I don't think this is "uproar"... this is a low, frustrated, Aslan growl of discontent...

"Uproar" will come if we don't get to see surface detail when someone's figured out it should be visible... but I'm sure that won't happen.

And if any of the DAWN team are looking in, we're not having a go at you. We love you really. We just want to celebrate this amazing time with you.

Posted by: JohnVV Jun 1 2011, 10:16 PM

i am in agreement with the few above this
At this point there IS NOTHING to be discerned from images that are 12x12 ,16x16,24x24,36x36

there is no useful info in those ( true the processing that was done for Pluto could) but why use up the cpu cycles .
wait for a bit .

[attachment=24418:ast.png]
is as good as it gets right now

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 1 2011, 10:30 PM

volcanopele, would your point of view change if I told you that the Dawn team plans to release no further images until July 3?

Posted by: ngunn Jun 1 2011, 10:32 PM

I'd still like to show them to my students each morning and let them decide that.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 1 2011, 10:34 PM

I agree. I find this attitude of, "there's nothing for you in these images" to be a bit condescending.

Posted by: volcanopele Jun 1 2011, 10:35 PM

If that marks the beginning of daily image releases, then yes, July 3 is fine (except of course, any gaps in image coverage)

Posted by: ngunn Jun 1 2011, 10:52 PM

"It's a local shop, for local people. THERE'S NOTHING FOR YOU HERE."

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 1 2011, 11:05 PM

I don't think that daily image releases are any part of the Dawn team's plan.

Posted by: ngunn Jun 1 2011, 11:19 PM

The measure of public involvement needs to be part of the case for funding of future missions. Can we do anything about that?

(Dawn team, go go go!)

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 1 2011, 11:20 PM

I get the feeling that it's going to be more like the MGS MOC images -- highlights once a week or so.

Posted by: djellison Jun 2 2011, 12:19 AM

Right now it's like OSIRIS on Rosetta. Uwe Keller is involved in both.

Posted by: Bart Jun 2 2011, 01:55 AM

They will have to upload it all to PDS eventually, right?

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 2 2011, 02:08 AM

Yes, that's true. No matter how stingy the PI (and there are lots of stingy PI's) the data has to get to the PDS eventually, and "eventually" has been a shorter and shorter period of time with each passing decade. Time's passage gives more and more people the bandwidth and skills to do cool stuff with PDS data. I care less and less about quick release of images for "pretty picture" purposes; I even lay off of Cassini and rover raw images knowing I'll see and be able to manipulate better versions in under a year, with each PDS release. But there's really nothing better than numerous, rapid image releases to allow enthusiasts to follow along with the ongoing, unfolding drama of an active space mission that's exploring a whole new unseen world (or, in the case of the rovers, new unseen landscapes and vistas). It looks like we're not going to be permitted to enjoy that at Vesta. At least I can trust that I will be able to enjoy that unfolding drama at Pluto, and on Mars with Curiosity, and (I think) above Jupiter's poles with Junocam. Hopefully if we make enough of a stink we'll be able to enjoy it at Ceres. The thrill of opening up each new image and seeing something new -- or not, and knowing you're going to have to quell your anticipation for a little while, waiting for celestial mechanics to bring your ship a bit closer to your goal -- shouldn't be something that only the few people intimately involved in a mission get to enjoy. That's the old way of doing things. The excitement of opening up a new image and a new view of a new world can be spread around Earth -- why not spread it, and create enthusiasm for more missions to explore more strange new worlds?

Posted by: eoincampbell Jun 2 2011, 02:29 AM

I hereby add my voice to this -request for images-

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Jun 2 2011, 04:18 AM

We could discern that everything at this point is going according to plan. A little bit of reassurance. No reason to suspect otherwise, of course, but still ...


I hope that's not really the case.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 2 2011, 04:26 AM

I remember when Pioneer 10 flew past Jupiter, almost 40 years ago. I'd eagerly waited a year and a half for it, but the released pics in the papers were awfully poor--worse than pics from ground-based telescopes. I had to wait almost two months for a Sky and Telescope issue that showed the beautiful photos, blowing away anything ever seen from the ground.

Voyager was a little better because I was at Caltech during the Saturn flybys (thirty years ago) and JPL set up monitors all over campus so we could watch the raw footage. The quality was so poor, though, that I was stunned when I saw the beautiful published prints--again, a month or two later.

Twenty years ago, when the first Hubble servicing mission reported great new photos, I used the Internet to find those pics on NASA's site. It was the first time I used the Internet for anything but e-mail, and I was blown away to see such beautiful pics within days of the mission. Still, it was just a handful of carefully selected and processed pics.

I think it's been about a decade now that space probes have routinely uploaded essentially all their pictures to the web. Now we feel we're being cheated if we don't get daily updates, even when there's little or nothing worth seeing. I'm not saying that's wrong--just marvelling at the change. I have lots of sympathy for planners on the Dawn team who might be taken by surprise.

Of course I'm as eager as anyone to see the new pics--even if they are just slightly-bigger blobs--but I can wait. I've got practice at it.

--Greg

Posted by: djellison Jun 2 2011, 04:44 AM

I can not possibly believe for a single second that the entire project is taken by surprise that the public might want to see the pictures they've paid for in a timely fashion.

MER had been releasing images for 3.5 yrs and Cassini for 3, when Dawn LAUNCHED.

There is no surprise here. Just a lack of images.

Posted by: lyford Jun 2 2011, 05:08 AM

This is exactly why I think such images are important - they tell a story, letting us "ride along." Even if there is no discernible difference yet day to day, the ability to check in to see if we can see anything connects us with the mission and provides a narrative with which to engage others.

It's kinda like twitter - each single post or image may not convey much or be earth (or dwarf planet) shaking in itself, but the constant contact reinforces the relationship between us and the mission.

Anyway, I do remember the days of sending away in the mail for black and white prints or hoarding the National Geographics. So it is a sign of how good we have it that we expect daily updates from our space probes.

Posted by: tanjent Jun 2 2011, 08:10 AM

Just to play the Devil's advocate:

If you want to maximize the attention Dawn claims from the man or woman on the street,
is it better to ratchet up the image detail step by step, or blast them with a fully detailed
view of the new world all in one shot?

Yes I want to see those approach pictures badly, but for someone who doesn't know that Dawn even
exists, could the approach images have an inoculation effect and actually reduce the overall public
profile of the mission. Are there any advertising executives active on this site who could comment
on this? For example, how would Steve Jobs handle the Dawn photo release?

Posted by: Astro0 Jun 2 2011, 09:29 AM

Jobs' would stick an Apple logo on it, tell you that it's better than the previous asteroid version even though it has no craters on it and is incompatible with other space debris

From a marketing approach, I agree that the broader public is more likely to want to have that 'bang' here's asteroid Vesta fully resolved and beautiful.
Sadly they'll still go *yawn* "So what!?". For that audience there is little interest in either increasing pixels or hi-res shots.

Where the images of DAWN's approach would be useful is through their use by Outreach professionals.
As has been said above, building the anticipation of the journey/approach is important. It helps build the story and the relationship with the viewer.
Using a series of approach images and comparing it to a simulation or a side by side with Hubble's observations and other projected views all help with developing the interest.

If people can be a part of the story by seeing what the scientist sees then they make an investment in continuing find out more as the story develops.

Posted by: tanjent Jun 2 2011, 10:30 AM

Well, if is some kind of scripted marketing ploy, I suppose we, the core constituency, have an assigned role to play not unlike what we are actually doing.
Dawn's mysterious PR consultant is likely counting on us to raise a clamor and be like the fans who are photographed pitching their tents impatiently outside the theaters fighting for tickets to this "world premiere" screening. That would make this one case where it's definitely OK to complain, and the louder the better.

To extend the iPhone analogy, at some point (hint, hint...) they might let a supposedly "stolen" photograph slip out and we could have a controversy about whether it's authentic or not. Somebody on the inside at DSN could be observed showing it off in a bar after hours...

Posted by: SFJCody Jun 2 2011, 11:37 AM

http://www.dawn.mps.mpg.de/typo3temp/pics/597c539696.jpg

http://www.dawn.mps.mpg.de/typo3temp/pics/df12f3db68.jpg

http://www.dawn.mps.mpg.de/typo3temp/pics/f260f082ba.jpg


I see neither rhyme nor reason in these image names. Shame, was considering giving wget a go (hey, it http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=265&hl=before they started releasing the raw images... )

Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 2 2011, 12:52 PM

Don't worry. Every approach shot could be released to the DAWN website and 99 percent of the public would remain blissfully unaware until they were slapped in the face by a widespread press release photo of Vesta in all her glory. At which time perhaps 10 percent of the public would become aware.

But that 1 percent of the public that wishes to see each and every image is an important group. They act as unofficial ambassadors to the general public, pointing out and explaining with enthusiasm aspects of missions that do make it to the general press, going into deeper detail where interest warrants.

Posted by: djellison Jun 2 2011, 01:45 PM

Marketing and Outreach are not the same. There is some marketing within the best practices of Media Relations, but that's not outreach either.

This isn't a case of trying to 'sell' something. We're already sold. What we want now is the product to be delivered. We've already paid for it.

Posted by: Sunspot Jun 2 2011, 05:09 PM

In the past NASA have had "http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/ambassador/" - enthusiastic amateurs that have gone out to the public/classrooms with education in mind. I think they could try a similar thing in regards to getting high quality images out to the public/media etc. Of course, it would only work in there is no embargo on public access to images, but if they can't release/process lots of images because they don't have time it could be a solution. There might have to be some strict guidelines on how the images can be processed perhaps. The work people here have done with MER mages is a good example.

I don't think there would be any shortage of volunteers though.

Posted by: Norm Hartnett Jun 3 2011, 04:02 PM

The silence seems to be drawing some attention.

http://nasawatch.com/archives/2011/06/why-is-jpl-sitt.html

Posted by: belleraphon1 Jun 3 2011, 09:31 PM

Am sending the same message to Emily's blog email (so the email can be counted).

I was around for the early missions of exploration …..

There was always tremendous excitement for me in seeing the Mariner, Viking, Voyager image releases. But also great frustration that these image releases had to wait for when team scientists thought a release was appropriate. Back in those pre digital pre internet days there really was no other way to do this.

But now, in the days of internet, there is no excuse for holding onto images. The thrill of discovery is not in ‘pretty pictures’. It is in seeing a dot grow large in the field of view, as ‘non-optimized’ as the exposures may be.

Releasing images as soon as possible lets us all truly ride along and invests far more of our imaginations and ‘spirit’ in the mission itself. We grow to feel a real part of the discovery process. We get invested in the vision, we become ardent advocates for the mission.

Holding onto images is old school thinking.

DAWN Team - Please release images as often as possible. Let us all ride along together.

Craig

Posted by: jsheff Jun 3 2011, 11:53 PM

I totally share the desire to see as many images as possible, even the uneventful opnav images. Not being in the loop as far as the thinking inside the mission goes, it's hard to say what's going on. It occurs to me that from the viewpoint of the mission investigators, it would be easy to see the public in a monolithic way; there's us and there's them. I'm not saying they are antagonistic to us - not at all. It's just that, from their point of view, they may not be troubled to make the distinction between, say, UMSF members and Joe the Plumber. In other words, they may not know enough about us or appreciate what we can do. What they may not realize is that , as someone else pointed out, they don't have to sell US on how cool the mission is. We KNOW how cool the mission is.

Posted by: jsheff Jun 4 2011, 01:03 AM

Actually, the Flight Operations Team has been very good about keeping the public informed, with the periodic Dawn Journals. And they seem to appreciate the importance of these first blurry images. Here's Marc Rayman from the latest Dawn Journal:

"So far, http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/vesta_gallery.asp reveal little more than the desired important information of where Vesta appears against the background of stars. And yet, in a sense they show much more. After its long and lonely voyage through the vast emptiness of interplanetary space, most of the time far from anything but bits of dust and the occasional insignificant rock, an alien world is finally coming into view. Although too far now to do more than illuminate a handful of pixels in the camera, the small disc of Vesta stands out as the brightest and largest object visible to the explorer except the master of the solar system, the sun. The pictures are visible proof of Dawn's progress from an intriguing concept not so many years ago to a distant spaceship about to orbit an uncharted protoplanet, the second most massive body between Mars and Jupiter."

So, yes, more, please!


- John Sheff
Cambridge, MA

Posted by: Bjorn Jonsson Jun 4 2011, 01:35 AM

I thought image release policies like Dawn's had become a thing of the past but clearly I was wrong.

As Discovery missions, NEAR (an old example) and Messenger (a recent example) are nice examples of how things can be done. In both cases some early low-res images were released shortly after they were obtained. It was interesting to see them, especially when knowing that in a few days/weeks one would know more about the nature of some tantalizing markings visible in the early images.

The single Dawn image that has been released is interesting. It may even show some hints of Vesta's nonspherical shape (but I wouldn't bet my money on it). And even if not, by now Vesta's nonspherical shape should be obvious in recent images. Some very large scale markings are probably visible as well. Once the resolution equals HST's resolution things get *really* interesting. Seeing the tantalizing and fuzzy features of the early images gradually 'evolve' into something well resolved is one of the exciting things about following these missions.

The last (and in fact also the first) time this happened to me was back in 1989 when Voyager 2 encountered Neptune and Triton. I didn't see any images from that flyby until I received an issue of Sky & Telescope a few months later. Not since back in 1989 has a really big world been explored for the first time from close range. And I'm getting a sense of deja vu: Despite some changes over these 22 years (in particular the Internet/WWW) in a way I feel like it's 1989 again.

One thing though: I'm not a US citizen so maybe I shouldn't be complaining. But I'm pretty sure there are Americans that share my opinions on this issue.


By changing the name of the mission to iDawn.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 4 2011, 04:41 AM

...and replacing all the controls with just one button.

Posted by: lyford Jun 4 2011, 06:29 AM

I have to say that I have enjoyed these immensely and look forward to http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal.asp Very informative and I have learned quite a bit since they started in 2006!

Posted by: Decepticon Jun 4 2011, 02:14 PM

Im not to worried about pics yet.


When dawns resolution surpasses HST is when I start get annoyed at no images.

Posted by: djellison Jun 4 2011, 02:51 PM

Then get worried - that's right about now.

Posted by: Juramike Jun 4 2011, 03:03 PM

I wrote to a member of the Dawn E/PO Team and received this very promising message:

"We look forward to you and others like you participating in Dawn. We have been waiting nearly four years to get to Vesta and we, too, can't wait to see what this world looks like when we finally get there. Dawn certainly plans to release more images. During the early phase (on approach), the plan is to release them in sets. A high-volume stream of imagery will begin at the heart of the mission, when science gathering begins in the survey orbit, in early August. Currently, the images are only being used for navigation."

Posted by: djellison Jun 4 2011, 03:10 PM

I don't believe for one second that they are only taking starfield like Nav imagery, now their resolving power at Vesta is matching and hereafter exceed Hubble.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 4 2011, 03:53 PM

It's really just a case of them wanting to have a big press event and unveil the first pictures to the world with a flourish; "Behold! a new world -- Vesta!." It's unfortunate when egos and theatrics come ahead of science and discovery, especially when we the American taxpayers bought and paid for that craft and its images. I'll be making that point several times when I'm in Washington next month meeting with the staff of Mr. Palazzo and others.

Posted by: tanjent Jun 4 2011, 03:56 PM

Marc Rayman provides great commentary, and I appreciate the humor even as I cringe. But Marc is on the engineering side, so I doubt he feels any personal stake in how and when the images are released. I won't expect any clarification from him about that policy; even if he does know what's going on, he wouldn't be the science team's chosen spokesman. I badly want to see those approach images in real time, and the marketing speculations expressed above are just my best attempt to frame the recent lack of images in an optimistic way.

The trouble with the taxpayer argument is that the enthusiasts on this site only paid for a tiny fraction of the mission's cost - most of it came from people for whom the mission doesn't rate nearly so high a priority. "Outreach" to me is a longer-term strategy addressed mainly to the next generation. It's harder to take a jaded adult and re-awaken that sense of discovery, but they are the ones who do most of the paying. Any "marketing" strategy that will make today's hard-pressed taxpayers sit up and take a little pride that they have paid for something truly wonderful - that would be a sacrifice I'd happily make if it really seemed that a sudden dramatic unveiling was the best way to go.

Does Vesta have that potential to accomplish a marketing breakthrough? Unfortunately, the scale of rocky asteroids is hard to gauge when they are just hanging out all by themselves in empty space. For somebody who has not been paying close attention, I wonder if Vesta will have any features that clearly make it more spectacular than Rosetta, or even Eros or Itokawa. Ceres, with its ice, will be something entirely new - like finding Greenland or Antarctica up there in the sky. Whatever happens here, the Ceres visit will probably offer the best public showcase for robotic space travel since Voyager. The current encounter may prove scientifically very rich, but in terms of publicity, perhaps a dress rehearsal.

(Oh, and great news from Mike while I was responding to the earlier stuff! )

Posted by: djellison Jun 4 2011, 04:02 PM

It's impossible to draw comparisons between missions in that way. One could argue MER is the best showcase for robotic space exploration. Or Cassini. Or any number of missions.

The crime here is that there are ever increasingly great images of this unexplored world being taken but not being shared with the public - it is an exquisit opportunity to engage and inspire the public....and for whatever reason they're forgoing that opportunity and revert to old-school media policy.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 4 2011, 04:06 PM

I don't want to get into a political debate here (or I'll have to delete my own comments and suspend myself), suffice it to say that you are incorrect in assuming that a small community of citizen advocates cannot engage in effective advocacy. This is in fact precisely what the Planetary Society was created for, and we'll leave any further discussion on that topic for the TPS site.

ADMIN: and that's the last word on the lobbying aspect of the discussion.

Posted by: Bunker9603 Jun 4 2011, 04:35 PM

I sent several emails to members of the DAWN team. So far this is the only response received:

Dear Rick,

Thanks for your interest in Dawn. We're glad you and many others are excited about Dawn and hope you'll stay with us through the entire mission. Right now, Dawn is still in its approach phase, so the heart of the Vesta rendezvous has not yet begun. We will have a high volume of imagery available starting around the time Dawn gets into "survey orbit," its first science orbit, at the beginning of August. The mission is committed to making images public. As you know, Dawn is a modestly sized project and the mission folks are focused right now on making sure everything is ready for our Vesta visit.


Best,
Jia-Rui


Jia-Rui C. Cook
Media Relations Specialist
NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena, CA 91109-8099

Posted by: nprev Jun 4 2011, 05:41 PM

Hmm. So minimal manpower is the possible reason for the slow release rate? If so, I wonder if they'd be amenible to asking for volunteers to help them do it.

(I would, however, expect that they'd ask any volunteers to enter into some sort of non-disclosure agreement in order to assure that the investigators themselves get first crack at the findings.)

Posted by: Decepticon Jun 4 2011, 06:41 PM

Not according to Marc Rayman. He states 2nd week of June.

Its only June 4.

Posted by: djellison Jun 4 2011, 06:57 PM

The second week in June starts in <48hrs

Vesta is about 13 pixels across right about now.

Posted by: Sunspot Jun 4 2011, 07:11 PM

Thats what I http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=6957&view=findpost&p=173827 here, something like NASA Solar System Ambassadors.

Posted by: Stu Jun 4 2011, 07:14 PM

The moment - the very moment - DAWN's optics can resolve Vesta better than Hubble, the team, and NASA, should be shouting it from the rooftops, because that will be a genuine point in history, one of those every-magazine-and-book-ever-written-is-now-wrong heartbeats where we suddenly saw a solar system body better than ever before. They should release the first "Better Than Hubble" image as soon after it is taken as possible, celebrating their success and setting the stage for the great reveals to come.

Nuts if they don't do that. Seriously, seriously nuts.

Posted by: ugordan Jun 4 2011, 07:18 PM

As much as I'd also like to see new images and realize people want to vent their frustration, talking about it here won't really change anything.

Posted by: Stu Jun 4 2011, 07:22 PM

Hmmm. Maybe, maybe not. You never know who's reading, who comes here via a link from another site. Our requests/pleas/head-against-brick-wall bangings may be being read by newspaper and TV people right now, wondering themselves where the pictures are.

And it always feels better to moan in company, doesn't it?

Posted by: ugordan Jun 4 2011, 07:25 PM

FWIW, one poster from http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/116100-Dawn-team-sitting-on-imagery?p=1897955#post1897955 said "dawn coinvestigator tom prettyman says will release video of footage in one week "

Posted by: ngunn Jun 4 2011, 07:55 PM

I hope someone on the Dawn team is right now making the argument that they have the perfect mission for doing a controlled experiment on image release policy. Two target destinations, both asteroids, virtually all other variables the same. Why not do it this way at Vesta (since that decision has already been taken) and the other way at Ceres, with prompt release of all images? The relative merits of each could then be objectively assessed.

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 4 2011, 10:40 PM

As someone who has followed the space program for the last 44 years, I know that for a long time, JPL has been very careful to put out quality images when they are ready and clear. During Mariner 10( 1973?), it was announced that Mercury had a moon, and subsequently that claim had to be withdrawn.

Now sure during Voyager 1 and 2 images were broadcast in real time over the PBS TV network. I still have the some of the black and white stills I took off the screen, some even show the volcanoes on the surface, which were not identified so until days later. We have been very fortunate to have had the ring side seat for Cassini, Galileo, Pathfinder, Phoenix, MER Spirit Opportunity, Deep Impact, Epoxi, Near Shoemaker etc.

But if the images is only 13 pixels across, I would rather wait til I can seen something of value, not over interpreted, and then change when we have better pictures.

During Spirits climb down the mountain in its first year, people were very excited about a dark patch at the base of the hill, there were weeks of blog entries generated about whether it was a cave or not. In the end it turned out to be a just dark patch of sand. Lets just take a few deep breathes, enjoy all the other great space picts we can find on the web or just go out and look up at the stars, and enjoy the fresh air.

Posted by: SFJCody Jun 4 2011, 10:51 PM

Only from Ustrax.

Posted by: djellison Jun 4 2011, 10:56 PM

So if the images were available, you would refuse to look at them?

And on that basis - should we stop the flow of imagery from Opportunity until we get to the rim of Endeavor crater?

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 4 2011, 11:08 PM

I prefer to gaze out the window when I'm traveling. I don't wait for the tour bus driver or airplane pilot to tell me when to look.

Posted by: Bjorn Jonsson Jun 4 2011, 11:14 PM

And if an image that is only 13 pixels across is getting close to the resolution of the best images ever (the HST images) it *is* interesting despite the few pixels. This is especially true if it's part of a bigger sequence of images, e.g. a rotation sequence or a multispectral sequence. I'm not asking for a rotation movie though, just a single, recent image would be enough to satisfy my curiosity.

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 4 2011, 11:30 PM

The main gist of my statement was about resolution. I looked at the first Dawn picture, and thought we might have a nice trail of images leading up to better-than hubble resolution. If its only 13 pixels across now, ( or whatever it is now), its not much to see.

Umm, the pictures from Opportunity are nice and clean, and show lots of interesting stuff, and its exciting to see the Endeavour crater get ever closer.

Also I like finding stuff out the plane window myself, but I don't tell the pilot to announce each city as we pass over it.

Remember when you had to drop off you photos at camera store and wait and hour? ( Or a week if you mail them out). Unfortunately that's the situation we have now.

And sure I remember how I could barely sleep the night of the Huygens probe and was just floored how quickly we could look at the entire set of decent images.

I don't exactly like it either, but we are talking a project that almost got stopped in the middle of development, represents the career work of someone, and I know that they will show the best when it looks good.

Posted by: ilbasso Jun 5 2011, 12:08 AM

I heard Tom Prettyman speak at Spacefest today. He promised a Vesta approach movie would be released "in about a week."

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 5 2011, 01:29 AM

I don't know how many of you work in software. I do, and I can imagine that for whatever reason, they're not set up to automatically pass pictures to the public. On approach, everyone is busy, so pretty pictures for the public get a lower priority than getting Dawn into orbit. It would eat up Dev time, so it doesn't get done unless someone has the motivation and some free cycles.

I'm told that public outreach is a thankless job on space missions. Maybe we should cut them a little slack.

--Greg

Posted by: djellison Jun 5 2011, 01:35 AM

Just as it would be exciting to see Vesta getting ever closer.



It was cancelled. Twice. Public reaction to that cancellation will have had no small part in its reinstatement. Frankly - I think the PI owes the public. Without them, he would have no spacecraft and no images.



Clearly they're not, or they would be doing it already. It's non trivial to set up such a pipeline, but it's not a hard or expensive process. A young intern with some python skills would have it done in a week.
It's been done for NEAR, MER, Cassini, EPOXI, Stardust and others. That's not the reason we're not seing Vesta images more regularly.

Posted by: SFJCody Jun 5 2011, 05:05 AM

There seems to be an assumption that they are not releasing the images in spite of the significant interest from communities like ours. Does anyone think it might be the case that the people here are in fact the reason the images aren't being released on a regular basis? That they are worried about being shown up by the breathtaking image processing skills of the amateurs here? How many magazine covers and APODs and the like originate from UMSFers?

Of course, being good scientists, they shouldn't really be worried about such trivial fluff in the slightest. These community images are no threat to the actual papers they intend to publish. But it might be a little galling to some if the press decide to use a pic processed by someone here rather than the official press release images.

Posted by: Decepticon Jun 5 2011, 05:19 AM

^ I agree.

Posted by: SFJCody Jun 5 2011, 05:59 AM

Imagine if they had an automated jpeg pipeline like Cassini. There would be people putting together approach animations, attempting super resolution stuff, making and updating simple maps... by the time the team put out a nice tidy press release this stuff would be all over the web.

Posted by: CAP-Team Jun 5 2011, 09:06 AM

Wouldn't that be cool!

Posted by: Astro0 Jun 5 2011, 12:30 PM

It is sometimes a 'thankless job' but also a rewarding one.
I believe though that the key to 'public outreach' is being responsive to 'public' interest and requests.

In this instance though it is a decision from the mission manager(s) that is blocking the release of images and not from any decision by the Outreach team.

Posted by: Decepticon Jun 5 2011, 04:54 PM

Now that I understand whats going on it makes me upset also.

I guess some emails can't hurt.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 5 2011, 08:42 PM

I just read Emily's article on this: http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00003054/

I especially liked her idea of showing support by "liking" the Facebook page for the Imager. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dawn-Framing-Camera/226065220752553?ref=ts&sk=wall

No need to post anything there, I don't think--especially not things like "THE PEOPLE WANT THE REGIME TO POST PICS!" But I agree that if we want to argue that there's a large community following DAWN, the number of people who "like" the page ought to be bigger than 100.

--Greg

Posted by: Hungry4info Jun 5 2011, 08:48 PM

Well, it's 103 last I checked.

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 6 2011, 03:26 AM

And the consensus discussion and frustration is about the same as here. But maybe being more "public" or directly coupled to the team might help.
My comparison to earlier planetary projects did not include the fact that while over the last decade JPL projects had the track record of real time release, ESA ones appear to generally not (Mars Express, Venus Express). Even though Huygens was an ESA probe the DISR camera was run by a UAriz group.

On the Dawn the probe is from JPL but the framing camera is run from Germany, I think that same institute as Venus Express, but not the same for Mars Express.

Anyways, we are probably are experiencing our collective frustration as a result of protocol, inter-agency politics ( or whatever choice adjective you want to insert). From our side it does't seem fair, from their side its just business as usual. Some day it will all be illuminated in some article on Sky and Tele or Discover Magazine.

I will just keep my fingers crossed for the approach movie mentioned yesterday by the end of the week. I can understand how all the great image processing experts here at UMSF are chomping at the bit to get a crack at some from images from a new solar system body.

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 6 2011, 05:42 AM

Duh!!! I read Emily's planetary.org post (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00003054/) after I wrote the above.

I'll go back under my lurker rock.

Posted by: jsheff Jun 6 2011, 05:28 PM

Maybe part of the problem is that, after MER and Cassini, we talked ourselves into believing that there was a paradigm shift in how images would be handled in the future. In fact, though, there has been no change in NASA's policy of how mission imagery is handled. It's up to the PI's. The real problem is that there seems to be no Steve Squires or Carolyn Porco on the Dawn team.

- John Sheff
Cambridge, MA

Posted by: ugordan Jun 6 2011, 05:41 PM

Not everyone on the Cassini imaging team was willing to release raw images. That's all I'm going to say.

Let's not forget New Horizons as another positive example of sharing the Jupiter experience on the fly (with images even having some calibration steps applied to them!).

Posted by: CAP-Team Jun 7 2011, 08:13 PM

I don't know what the field views are for the Narrow Angle Camera, but if it's anything like Cassini (21') Dawn should now be able to make some stunning images of Vesta by now at a distance of 350.000 kilometers

Posted by: ugordan Jun 7 2011, 08:20 PM

It's not. Dawn carries more modest imagers.

Posted by: Floyd Jun 7 2011, 11:07 PM

Yes, Cassini started with real conflict about "amateurs" posting mosaics before Cassini scientists. It seems to have taken both direct advocating of people's right to work with released images, and I'm sure some behind the scenes interventions (UMSF and amateurs have many friends among influential scientists—Stern, Squires and many others). I'm guessing the Dawn Spring Uprising is due in no small part to the eventual success of the effort with the Cassini team.

Posted by: nprev Jun 8 2011, 12:05 AM

Just a note/reminder: Let's be very careful & respectful when discussing this issue. None of us--despite any influential acquaintances--has 100% understanding of all the dynamics at work here, since obviously we're not part of the organization.

It is proper for us to decry the lack of openness that is the end result of whatever's going on in hopes that our shared opposition to the policy will be heard & understood. It is improper to speculate about cause--or, much worse, assign blame--absent detailed knowledge as descibed with respect to the cause.

We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

Posted by: charborob Jun 8 2011, 01:54 AM

Dawn carries two identical cameras, described http://www.dawn.mps.mpg.de/index.php?id=5&L=1. At a distance of 350 000 km, Vesta is still only about 17 pixels wide. Patience. Patience.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 8 2011, 02:01 AM

Dude, you're old!

--Greg :-)

Posted by: nprev Jun 8 2011, 02:08 AM

Gee, thanks, Greg! Must point out that at 48 I'm still damn young for a robot!

Posted by: djellison Jun 8 2011, 05:26 AM

How hard? Not very. No one's mentioned such a thing in years and years.

Because you asked so very nicely - here's an RSS feed of the 10 threads most recently posted in
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=rssout&id=2








Marc was indeed a superb presenter - his talk is here at about 32 minutes : http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/15208876

Posted by: dilo Jun 8 2011, 05:37 AM

Just to have an idea on what Dawn was seeing few days ago (now distance should be lower...):

Posted by: Astro0 Jun 8 2011, 06:49 AM

Dilo, that reminds me of this special DAWN/Vesta simulation

Posted by: ugordan Jun 8 2011, 08:07 AM

Astro, is that your work? It's hilarious! Down to the details of starfield jumping around at intervals.

Posted by: tek_604 Jun 8 2011, 08:45 AM

Could someone perhaps PM me with the founders details?

Posted by: Astro0 Jun 8 2011, 10:29 AM

Ugordan - Astro0 is that one of yours?
Yep. Just a little bit of fun and perhaps a little comment on the lack of approach images.

Edward - the founders details?
Clue...he's UMSF member #1 just a few posts above.

Posted by: tek_604 Jun 8 2011, 10:51 AM

Doh, in which case, ignore my stupid question

Posted by: djellison Jun 8 2011, 03:58 PM

Starting with Edwards post and a few thereafter about RSS feeds - moved to http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=6757&hl=

Posted by: M@! Jun 9 2011, 02:46 PM

I'm not sure that this represents an actual change in policy, but today http://nasawatch.com/archives/2011/06/nasa-decides-to.html that NASA has decided to release more Dawn imagery.

Posted by: dilo Jun 9 2011, 07:59 PM

Great news, the source seems reliable..

Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 9 2011, 09:55 PM

I'm sure that was the plan all along. Either they didn't release images one by one because they truly thought they would be uninteresting, or.... they didn't want to get scooped on the movie version by the amateur community. And I'm not sure I can blame them if that was the reason. The amateurs will have plenty of time to make improvements later.

Posted by: Den Jun 10 2011, 12:28 AM

I must say I am enjoying the suspense!

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 10 2011, 12:31 AM

It wasn't. And we were told that quite specifically.

Posted by: Juramike Jun 10 2011, 12:52 AM

If I click "Like" on the current image on the Dawn Framing Camera's Facebook page will that provide positive feedback?

Posted by: tek_604 Jun 10 2011, 05:37 AM

Not directly, but I can assure you, the Framing Camera Team will be most appreciative.

Posted by: Stu Jun 10 2011, 10:50 AM

'One image each week until arrival at Vesta' means what, three, four pictures?

Glad to hear of some progress, and all images will be appreciated, but can't help thinking we're serfs grudgingly being tossed half-gnawed chicken legs from the top table...

Posted by: Stu Jun 10 2011, 11:49 AM

And any forum members who are on Facebook - please consider going to the aforementioned Framing Camera page and Liking it; it's a great and very easy way of showing interest in and support for the mission. I'm sure it's probably just a one- or two-man Outreach effort, too, so the person/people behind it will be very grateful for the support. I'm sure once the images start being released properly it'll be a great place to go to learn/talk about the mission.

Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 10 2011, 12:46 PM

I'm not saying the plan was to release an approach movie Monday, but that I assume they always planned to make an approach movie.

Posted by: djellison Jun 10 2011, 01:50 PM

And yet we have Russell on record (see Emily's blog entry) saying



Releasing a pretty movie on Monday, whilst taking images 'not for making pretty picture'..... that's a direct contradiction.

Posted by: machi Jun 10 2011, 02:32 PM

You can always make approach movie from enough images. Most important question about images is - how long exposition time they used?
If all images are overexposed (and first image evidently isn't), then one can say bye bye to all details on Vesta's disc.
Such images are normally used as optical navigation and search for moons, rings or tenuous atmosphere.
But I suppose that in every approach sequence are images taken with different exposition time and maybe even with different filters.

BTW, I always think that most images from spacecrafts are taken for scientific reasons and "not for making pretty pictures", it's only sheer accident, that
some of us think, that space is beautiful.

Posted by: Stefan Jun 10 2011, 05:21 PM

It is not. You have no reason to question the P.I.'s statements. All FC images of Vesta to date have been acquired for optical navigation purposes.

Posted by: djellison Jun 10 2011, 05:38 PM

It is Stefan. We were told that images were not being released because they were not pretty, not suitable for the public.

And now, they are.

Posted by: tedstryk Jun 10 2011, 08:54 PM

I take it you haven't been reading this thread.

Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 10 2011, 08:58 PM

A pretty picture is not the same as a movie. Individual frames of a movie may make poor quality pictures, but the movie itself may be of passable quality. By the way, have they really said the approach movie was going to be "pretty"?

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 10 2011, 09:14 PM

This is just directed at the situation, no one in particular- OY!


This situation has become

Subnormal
Unfortunate
Conflicted
Knowledge-confused
Superunsatisfying

For now the horse ( or parrot) is dead, beaten, powdered, etc.

On Monday, we can see the movie, and start over, wash, rinse, repeat.

Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 10 2011, 09:31 PM

True, true, and true!

Posted by: Explorer1 Jun 11 2011, 01:29 AM

Yeah, debating semantics won't get that approach movie up any sooner.
I liked the camera's FB page, for what it's worth.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 11 2011, 04:09 AM

I still think that just 165 people who've "liked" the Camera page makes for a very, very weak statement.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/dawn.framing.camera

Let me suggest that on Monday, when they do post some more pictures, we all "share" the pictures with our friends, and encourage them to "like" the Camera page. And tell them why. It's a statement of support for prompt public disclosure of scientific information.

If we can't push that number over 1,000, it's hard to see why anyone should take us seriously. "Minus 165 cranks, the REAL public would happily wait months--like they always have." Let's see if we can do better!

--Greg

Posted by: SFJCody Jun 11 2011, 04:46 AM

Good plan. I've posted a link to the page on my facebook wall with a little explanation.

Posted by: djellison Jun 11 2011, 06:09 AM

105 space enthusiasts were at the JPL TweetUp

38,000 members of the general public were at Open House


The TweetUp generated more traffic to websites and more mentions of projects out in the wild.

Posted by: Stu Jun 11 2011, 06:44 AM

Ok, so come Monday let's make a concerted, team effort to promote the approach movie.

If you're on Facebook, Like the movie, write about it on your wall, comment on the Framing Camera page's wall, and the Dawn mission page too. If you're on Twitter, Tweet about it, and encourage your followers to RT it, too. Just get the word out, tell as many people about it as you can, however you can.

Always ending with "Great! More please!"

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 11 2011, 04:04 PM

Probably a sure bet that Emily and Bad Astronomy will tweet it, so let give them a retweet.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 11 2011, 05:02 PM

I'm still chuckling that the implicit message from "liking" the camera page is "We like the camera, and we'd like to see more from it." There's something deliciously positive and wholesome about it, compared to ranting.

Ranting is important too, of course. Without a few people ranting, there would be no ranters to be compared to!

--Greg :-)

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 11 2011, 09:19 PM

There is also the Dawn Mission Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001630151681

Posted by: ngunn Jun 11 2011, 09:34 PM

No facebook, no twitter, so I suppose I'll have to rant.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 12 2011, 02:52 AM

I think the idea, though, is specifically to like the camera. That's what makes a statement. Otherwise, you're just showing blanket support for the mission. (Which is no bad thing, of course.)

I'd also add that I don't think there's any shame these days in having a Facebook account--even if your only friends are Space Probes.

--Greg

Posted by: djellison Jun 12 2011, 03:00 AM

Same with twitter - which you can basically consider as a pseudo RSS feed if the entire social-media element isn't up your street.

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 12 2011, 04:42 AM

Lets analyze the word support

No I just meant "like" the camera, ( tell them dislike if you choose) and the mission page is just another outlet, which oddly lets you get friended by the mission.

Posted by: stevesliva Jun 13 2011, 03:09 PM

And so, a movie, with features:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/dawn/news/dawn20110613.html

Not an approach movie, a rotation move from June 1st.

Posted by: Bunker9603 Jun 13 2011, 03:32 PM

On June 1st Dawn was 483,000km (300,000mi) from Vesta, today Dawn is 277,000km (172,000mi) from Vesta, hopefully they will release additional images soon as the details of Vesta should be a lot clearer now.

I am glad that they didn't make us wait until July to see the images though so thank you to the Dawn team!

Posted by: djellison Jun 13 2011, 03:47 PM

Oh sweet imagery

It's going to be great seeing these hints of pixels resolve into a whole swath of places over the next couple of months.

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 13 2011, 04:34 PM

The video kinda reminds me of Bambi vs Godzilla. Fourteen seconds of video and 22 seconds of description/credits.

But its a start......

Posted by: ugordan Jun 13 2011, 04:35 PM

Nice. There's more pixel aliasing than I expected, but at least that means the pixels won't be fuzzy when we get closer in.
The dark feature looks like an "ordinary" depression to me at this resolution.

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 13 2011, 04:45 PM

It appears that the "Dawn Mission" facebook page is more plugged in it already posted the movie and has 516 friends.

While the Dawn Framing Camera only has 190 likes. And no post of the movie as yet. Maybe because its dinner time in Germany.

Posted by: helvick Jun 13 2011, 05:53 PM

It's an excellent first real view that to my eye has more detail than the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENOoB3086wg&feature=player_embedded.

Can't wait for more.

Posted by: kenny Jun 13 2011, 06:31 PM

It's 192 now....

Posted by: 4th rock from the sun Jun 13 2011, 06:36 PM

The images look sub-sampled, so super-resolution might reveal a little more, although Vesta's rotation will make registration difficult.
But nice images anyway !

Posted by: Tesheiner Jun 13 2011, 06:39 PM

AFAIK, they are on holidays today.

Posted by: Bjorn Jonsson Jun 13 2011, 07:52 PM

Great images - the resolution of Dawn's images is now high enough to make them really interesting.

It's interesting that Vesta seems to have a more irregular (and possibly even 'jagged') shape than bodies of similar size (Mimas, Enceladus and Miranda).

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 13 2011, 08:02 PM

From the Dawn Mission facebook page.

Posted by: Paolo Jun 13 2011, 08:08 PM

I don't think this is unexpected. after all, Vesta is made of real rigid "rock" and the moons are mostly ice

Posted by: machi Jun 13 2011, 08:57 PM

Interesting animation, images (from 1.6.) already looks better than images from HST and they are pretty.

Posted by: tedstryk Jun 14 2011, 12:53 AM

I can't tell how much of the jaggedness is due to the saw-tooth effect of large pixels and how much is real.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 14 2011, 02:14 AM

So now it's time to go to the framing camera page http://www.facebook.com/#!/dawn.framing.camera and click the "share" link on the left hand side, together with a nice message urging your friends to "like" it too. Here's what I wrote.

And I still think 194 people is awfully, awfully low.

--Greg

Posted by: Fran Ontanaya Jun 14 2011, 05:24 AM

The link to the video in the Press Release at http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/ is wrong. The correct URL is: http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/video/videos_dawn_20110613_vesta-640.mov

Edit: It's fixed now.

Posted by: 4th rock from the sun Jun 14 2011, 08:54 PM

Here's what I got by trying super resolution with 8 frames from the movie. The limb is affected from rotation, as registration was done using details in the middle of the disk.

Posted by: ngunn Jun 14 2011, 09:49 PM

Congratulations 4th rock on making creative use of the meagre data available. That may be the sharpest view we have so far of Vesta's surface features. I hope the Dawn team will take note. In order to make the movie someone on the team must have put in extra work processing 20 images for 'prettiness' rather than science. They have in fact gone out of their way. It's appreciated, and your superres is the fruit of that gesture on their part. I hope it presages more sharing and more creativity as the mission unfolds.

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Jun 14 2011, 11:43 PM

After looking at the still shots, I got the impression that there might be the hint of a large crater, with perhaps a central peak, in profile at the upper right edge of Vesta. Roughly from the half past twelve to the two o'clock positions. Now looking at the super res from 4th rock, in spite of the smearing and limb distortion artifacts, I'm wondering if maybe the result we are seeing at that spot might be the "trail" such a crater would leave after combining the photos.

Won't be long to find out.

As for the large central peak crater we already know is there, the southern one, that appears to me to be in the bright band on the edge at the four o'clock (lower right) position. The fact that it should be somewhere close there might be "helping" with the seeing.

Posted by: peter59 Jun 17 2011, 08:17 PM

We're getting closer (265 000 kilometers).
http://www.dawn.mps.mpg.de/index.php?id=21&L=1

Posted by: ugordan Jun 17 2011, 08:23 PM

Now we're getting somewhere!

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 17 2011, 08:33 PM

The image is small enough to post right here (and add to their web stats).

Posted by: stevesliva Jun 17 2011, 08:34 PM

Nice. Watch out Miranda... this place may have more lumps.

Posted by: Bjorn Jonsson Jun 17 2011, 08:46 PM

Dawn's images are now definitely better than HST's.

It now seems pretty certain that Vesta's shape is more irregular and lumpy than Miranda's (the earlier images strongly hinted at this). The shape is probably not 'jagged' as seemed possible from the June 1 images but the overall shape is still remarkably irregular for such a big body.

I get the impression that we are seeing both topographic shading and albedo features but this will not become clear until higher resolution images are obtained (a rotation movie from recent images might reveal more about this though).

Posted by: mchan Jun 17 2011, 09:07 PM

Please, sir, I want some more.

Posted by: Explorer1 Jun 17 2011, 09:08 PM

End of the drought! Is the south pole visible from this point? We may already be seeing the big impact.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 17 2011, 09:39 PM

Thanks, Dawn team! Much appreciated!

Phil

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 18 2011, 03:44 AM

I still think it's a good idea, when these photos get posted, to share them on Facebook. And encourage your friends to 1) "like" the camera and 2) "share" the camera.

http://www.facebook.com/dawn.framing.camera

Yes, it's up from just 24 friends to 217 since Emily first proposed it, but sending a consistent message always helps. And it still seems this is just a tiny fraction of all the people we ought to be able to reach.

--Greg

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 18 2011, 05:00 AM

I just want to point out that it's really bizarre that this photo, from a JPL mission, has been released on the imaging team's website but is nowhere to be found on the Dawn mission site or in Photojournal. JPL is usually so together and organized, everything shows up everywhere nearly simultaneously, so this is really anomalous. However it got out, I'm very happy! There's still not a lot to see, just enough to see that there's a lot more to be seen....

Posted by: antipode Jun 18 2011, 07:42 AM

Wow

Where is the axis of rotation in that image? I get the impression that the south pole is NOT visible in that image if I compare it to the Hubble shots.
If not, that's a truly gigantic 'lump' on the limb, and signs of more 'lumps' around the equator?

Perhaps I'm reading to much into the image. This is going to be good that's for sure.

When you think about it - this is a brand new TYPE of object, a rocky 500km-ish diameter potato. What is Proteus made of - is it icy or rocky? That's the only thing I can think of to compare this to...

P

Posted by: Stu Jun 18 2011, 08:57 AM

Little bit of sharpening n'stuff...

My, that's a freaky screaming-monkey-being-tortured-in-a-lab face top right, isn't it..?

Posted by: Hungry4info Jun 18 2011, 09:10 AM

Not that we know for certain, but it's almost surely icy, considering where it formed in the solar system.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 18 2011, 09:19 AM

Don't sharpen too much, Stu - that image had already been sharpened. The unsharpened version is now on the Dawn website... so you were sharpening the artifacts of sharpening, which is never a good idea!

Still, a pretty scary monkey, as you say.

Phil

Posted by: Stu Jun 18 2011, 09:33 AM

Thanks Phil, wasn't claiming it was that scientific - leave that to you guys! - I just thought it brought out the face quite strikingly.

Posted by: Paolo Jun 18 2011, 09:59 AM

if you look at the movie released earlier last week, you will see that the lump at bottom left seem to be the central peak of the southern polar crater and you will get a sense of the orientation of the spin axis

Posted by: antipode Jun 18 2011, 11:13 AM

Well yes Paolo, but I can't get that to accord with the Hubble rotation movie, which shows Vesta rotating around its short axis if I remember, and where the central peak of the southern crater seems to sit nicely at the south pole (like its an oblate spheroid), whereas this seems, if that lump is the central peak of the south pole crater, to suggest that Vesta is a prolate spheroid (surely not)?

Edit: Ok, I just watched the first video again, and I see what you mean, I'll wait a few more days like the rest of us!


P

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 18 2011, 02:06 PM

I bet the gravity models will come up with some really wild mass-distribution for this big chunky-mess. We might even expect Dawn to have a "bumpy" ride in the lowest orbits. And by "bumpy" I mean large observable orbit perturbations caused by unevenly distributed mass.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 18 2011, 02:35 PM

Don't forget the phase angles - HST images show a small phase angle (that's a measure of how much is in shadow - small phase angle = nearly a fully illuminated phase), Dawn is showing a larger one. If you think of this face of Vesta with a chunk on the left side in shadow, you'll get a better idea of its true shape.

Phil

Posted by: nprev Jun 18 2011, 08:15 PM

Yeah, no doubt. I was thinking that south polar passes might be particularly interesting; not sure if that honkin' big crater left just a divot, or also deposited an equally honkin' big mascon. (Might be a major clue about the nature of the impactor, as well as its impact velocity.)

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 18 2011, 08:20 PM

I's say it was completely shattered by that impact and reassembled over time.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 18 2011, 08:23 PM

If it was shattered and reassembled there would not be a south polar crater!

Phil

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 18 2011, 08:29 PM

I'd say it was NEARLY completely shattered by that impact and reassembled over time.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 18 2011, 08:53 PM

Nice recovery!

Phil

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 18 2011, 11:16 PM

I took a look at the Dawn Mission's simulated view of Vesta: http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/orbits/fullview4.jpg

Even at just 130,000 miles away, it still doesn't look like anything special. In hindsight, I guess it would have been nice if they had a simulated view through the framing camera. This slow-motion approach is really a different experience in a lot of ways.

Posted by: Juramike Jun 19 2011, 01:40 AM

My guess of a comparision between a still image from the Hubble rotation movie (http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA13427) and the June 14 image:

If so, then just about to come into rotation is that big dark crease.

(I still think this looks like a really big echinoid. It'll be nice to see craters and other distinguishing features for orientation.)

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 19 2011, 02:02 AM

It's not only the slow approach that makes this one strange, it's the sheer size of Vesta. For any of the other asteroids we've ever seen, Dawn would still be looking at pretty much just a point of light right now.

(Of course, if we were visiting a smaller asteroid, the FC would probably have been designed with a narrower FOV, but hopefully you get my point...)

Posted by: tek_604 Jun 20 2011, 02:07 PM

As I understand things, this is because the agreement is that we (the MPS FC Team) can release an image, and JPL can release their choice of an image. To be honest, I can't remember if they are the same image, just processed differently, or if they are two different images. The processing differs between the two teams. We're better, obviously

Either way, gives you guys two images a week, rather than one, so stop complaining

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 20 2011, 02:13 PM

That'll be the day! But we do like the camera.

--Greg :-)

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 20 2011, 03:52 PM

How about if they are ALL released like MER, Cassini and Phoenix. There'll be no complaints then

Posted by: belleraphon1 Jun 20 2011, 09:34 PM

NASA Hosts Briefing To Preview Spacecraft Visit Of Large Asteroid

NASA will host a news briefing at 2 p.m. EDT on Thursday, June 23, to discuss the Dawn spacecraft's year-long visit to the large asteroid Vesta.
NASA Television and the agency's website will broadcast the event.

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2011/jun/HQ_M11-126_Dawn_Visit.html

Craig

Posted by: Explorer1 Jun 20 2011, 10:12 PM

That's as good an opportunity as any to show some new images. Will be tuning in...

Posted by: Stu Jun 20 2011, 10:33 PM

With the greatest of respect - and I do appreciate there are challenges and problems for the DAWN Outreach team to tackle - I just can't get all woo-hooey over the prospect of two images a week, not when I can go to the MER or CASSINI sites and see dozens of new images each day. That's the way things are done now. You need to join the rest of us in 2011!

If any of the DAWN team are looking in (and I know you're busy guys, seriously) can I suggest you wander over to the following thread:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=6990

...and see what people can do when you release your images? We're not just asking because we're greedy and impatient, or because we feel we have some god-given right to them. We can use them to create just *incredible* portraits, and movies, and visions, which you yourselves can use, which people Out There will see and think "Wow! That's amazing!!" and get excited about the spacecraft and the team that took them. It's a no-brainer, really it is.

I'm confident we'll see some more images at the media event too, Dan; it would be a perfect opportunity to amaze everyone!

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Jun 23 2011, 05:13 PM

Reminder that there is now less than an hour to go until the DAWN news conference.

Christopher Russell will be among those on the panel.

DAWN is currently 98,300 miles (158,000 km) from Vesta, closing in on it at about four times my normal driving speed.

Posted by: Explorer1 Jun 23 2011, 06:00 PM

Starting now...

Posted by: Hungry4info Jun 23 2011, 06:01 PM

Some images have appeared http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/dawn/news/dawn20110623.html.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 23 2011, 06:13 PM

uhhhhhh thanks uhhhh for those uhhhhhh images uhhhhhh

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 23 2011, 06:21 PM

I took the approach video and pulled out individual frames, 124 of them. UMSFers: have at them and post results here!

Posted by: ugordan Jun 23 2011, 06:24 PM

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/dawn/multimedia/approachVideo.html approach video?

Posted by: Explorer1 Jun 23 2011, 06:28 PM

Prank call: something about a squid and Hubble?

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 23 2011, 06:29 PM

Here's the June 20 sequence as an animated GIF:

Posted by: stevesliva Jun 23 2011, 06:33 PM

The approach movie with rotation sequences is pretty cool.

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Jun 23 2011, 06:37 PM

Looks like Vesta lived in a rough neighborhood.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 23 2011, 06:41 PM

They didn't take my call so I didn't get to ask a question

Posted by: Explorer1 Jun 23 2011, 06:42 PM

The details on the hosts' careers was rather interesting, as well as showing the 'sample' of Vesta we already possess.

Posted by: Toma B Jun 23 2011, 06:46 PM

Press conference was just 39 minutes long. There were NO REAL QUESTIONS. Those news-guys present were actually yawning.
Why don't they take questions from internet forums (like this one) for example.
Such an interesting mission, such an interesting story to be told to ignorant idiots.

BTW:
All images of Vesta released to date are quite a bit blurry. Is that the result from to much magnification or what?

Posted by: tek_604 Jun 23 2011, 07:03 PM

Press release by MPS is now available:

http://www.dawn.mps.mpg.de/index.php?id=17&L=1&tx_ttnews%5btt_news%5d=24&cHash=3d919c63d7813d258a989e6204be21bd

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 23 2011, 07:07 PM

The Dawn FC's angular resolution is 94 microradians. So if the most recent pictures were taken from 189000 km, then they should have about 18 km resolution, or about 30 pixels north to south on Vesta. Vesta actually measures about 160 pixels in these images, so it's been enlarged substantially, by a factor of 5 or 6.

(Someone please check my arithmetic.)

Posted by: Stu Jun 23 2011, 07:13 PM

Image #0109 sharpened up/generally messed about with a bit...

I know, I know... careful when sharpening too much...artefacts... I'mjust doing it for fun...

But that's gotta be a little round crater there, right?

Posted by: tedstryk Jun 23 2011, 07:15 PM

Yes, they are greatly magnified, which is why they appear blurry.

Posted by: ugordan Jun 23 2011, 07:26 PM

I'm hoping some of those brightness differences (like that bright-ish crater near the center in the latest sequence) turn out to be albedo differences. There doesn't appear to be many of those so far. I'd hate to see Vesta turn into another dull monochrome body.

The other thing that kind of caught me by surprise is how the imaging spectrometer can also actually resolve Vesta now. With the framing camera's resolution substantially lower than the likes of Galileo SSI, Cassini NAC, etc., there's not that big of a gap between resolutions as one would expect for a spectrometer.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 23 2011, 07:54 PM

I wouldn't worry yet - think of these images as being like Voyager images of Helene, Janus, Epimetheus etc. We have a long way to go yet, and we already know there is spectral variability from the previous HST and other mapping.

Phil

Posted by: Stu Jun 23 2011, 07:55 PM

I've been saving something until today...

Anyone want to see what Vesta looks like up-close? It's just, well, I have a bit...

In his opening comments, PI Mr Russell showed a very impressive slice of a Vesta meteorite, mounted in a plexiglass frame. He mentioned that you can buy pieces of the meteorite, unlike Moon rocks. Which is true. A few years ago a friend of mine in Australia bought me a piece of the "Millibillie" meteorite for my birthday... just a wee bit, 2.5cm across, but it's a Euctrite, a class of meteorite which is thought to originate from... Vesta...

So, here's my little piece of Vesta.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 23 2011, 10:12 PM

Here's one that was on display in the JPL Visitors Center two weeks ago. It's a Polymict Eucrite found at Lewis Cliff, Antarctica.

more on the composition here -> http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=12773

Posted by: tedstryk Jun 23 2011, 10:21 PM

Here is my take on the last four frames, aligned with the last frame.

Posted by: Astro0 Jun 23 2011, 10:46 PM

Stu said: So, here's my little piece of Vesta.

All the best things are found in Australia

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 23 2011, 11:11 PM

Agreed, and let's all toss back a Fosters in honor of Wally Gale today.

Posted by: belleraphon1 Jun 24 2011, 12:24 AM

This is the first mid-sized rocky world we have visited.

I well remember the anticipation of the Voyager 1 Saturn encounter. We had just been wowed by the Jupiter planet sized moons. At Saturn we would see mid sized (that was the term used) icy moons for the first time. Now that wild assortment of satellites has become lovingly familiar yet still capable of surprise.

I love that journey from unknown to known to familiar. Mental equivalent of drinking a vintage wine. Take a sip. Roll around the pallet before the swallow. The burst of inner warmth. Take another sip, an image a bit finer in resolution, just as the taste explores a finer nuance. The bottle is not finished untill we have reached familiar. Yet pick up a bottle of the same vintage... and be surprised again.

Exploration is great because the discovery, as the wine, never ends or gets stale.

Love this.

Posted by: Sunspot Jun 24 2011, 12:31 AM

Did they elaborate on any planned image release policy. Or is it really 2 images a week?

Posted by: machi Jun 24 2011, 12:45 AM

Fantastic images! Continuously better and better.

Now I know who I am. Planetary drunkard.

Posted by: Explorer1 Jun 24 2011, 12:56 AM

Two images a week at first, but getting more frequent; the animation posted earlier shows this clearly as they get closer and closer.

Posted by: belleraphon1 Jun 24 2011, 01:12 AM

Now I know who I am. Planetary drunkard.
[/quote]


I ask... what could be better!!!!

Posted by: tedstryk Jun 24 2011, 01:43 AM

I know what you mean. This is the first world in its class that we have seen. I am incredibly excited. After Ceres, we will have seen the two most massive rocky worlds that we haven't yet seen (assuming we don't find some ejected rocky world out beyond Neptune somewhere).

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 24 2011, 04:18 AM

From the http://www.dawn.mps.mpg.de/index.php?id=5&L=1 the camera is 5.5 degrees square and 1024 pixels square, so I also get 94 microradians/pixel.

Using 579 km for the diameter and 189,000 km for the distance, I get 3,063 microradians or about 33 pixels.

So, yeah, I get the same answer.


--Greg

Posted by: PDP8E Jun 24 2011, 05:21 AM

Here is my take on the original VESTA approach movie.
I tried to clean it up a bit ...
The magnification is quite large so the individual pixel activations between images causes the big jumps.

I received the 20 original approach images from Framing Camera makers at the Max-Planck-Institut für Sonnensystemforschung
The credit for the originals is: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA

Cheers

Posted by: dilo Jun 24 2011, 06:53 AM

My attempt to make a movie from the 10 frames of Jun,20 after enhancement (sharpening and gamma):


I made also these stereograms (with 5° rotation in order to have vertical rotation axis):

thanks to Emily for original material!

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 24 2011, 09:44 AM

The motion in these movies reveals the pole location, so it looks as if the approach is from some distance south of the equator, say about 20 degrees south, and the south polar mountain (central peak of the big crater) is inside the limb. A prominent bright crater on the south limb is on or just inside the rim of the big crater.

Phil

Posted by: SFJCody Jun 24 2011, 10:34 AM

Haumea out in the Kuiper Belt has a pretty high density, higher than Ceres. Now there's a place I'd like to see close up...

Posted by: Bjorn Jonsson Jun 24 2011, 11:32 AM

It's starting to look like some of the big craters are rather bright - the albedo seems to vary considerably across the disk. One problem though: The released images may have been contrast stretched and/or filtered. If this is the case the brightness variations might be smaller than these images imply.

Posted by: Juramike Jun 24 2011, 12:14 PM

Also reveals that the remnant rim of the big south polar crater is very beaten up and pretty subtle. (Obvious by topograpy, but not by albedo). Must've occurred very, very early in Vesta's history? I'll wager that the cratering record inside the south polar crater and outside it is pretty similar.

Posted by: machi Jun 24 2011, 12:39 PM

More vintage wine.
Slow morph animation from 17.6. and 20.6. images (thanks to Dawn Framing Camera team and Emily for images!).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9QsuITPMRA

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 24 2011, 05:20 PM

Also, unless Emily's ready to declare victory, we should try to remember to visit the FC Facebook page and "like" the pictures they're sharing with us.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/dawn.framing.camera

And if you haven't done it, FRIEND the camera and SHARE the camera. It makes a nice statement.


We seem to have stalled out at 230. I've been sharing the pix as they come out, but I think I've maxed out my Dawn-interested friends at this point. Still, I'm surprised we don't have (among us) enough interested people to push that to 1,000.

--Greg

Posted by: MizarKey Jun 24 2011, 06:41 PM

Already looks like it's going to be an interesting place. What a great mission!

Posted by: Hungry4info Jun 24 2011, 07:39 PM

Regarding the approach movie, can someone explain to me the order of the labeled dates?
...June 08, June 14, June 07(!), June 17, June 20...

Posted by: machi Jun 24 2011, 07:56 PM

"can someone explain to me the order of the labeled dates? .....June 14, June 07(!), June 17..."
It's evidently typing error.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 24 2011, 07:59 PM

But what were they trying to type?

--Greg

Posted by: machi Jun 24 2011, 08:03 PM

June 17.

Posted by: ups Jun 24 2011, 11:04 PM

I'm just going to sit back and wait for the awesomeness.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 27 2011, 01:49 AM

New Dawn Journal.

http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal_06_23_11.asp


Highlights:

It promises regular updates of pictures here: http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/vesta_dawn_gallery.asp



So expect another log after July 16 or so.


--Greg

Posted by: Ian R Jun 27 2011, 02:16 AM

Bit late to the party, I know, but here's my take on the June 20th sequence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cuAJ4b45IA

Posted by: Holder of the Two Leashes Jun 28 2011, 03:28 AM

74,000 miles to go. Pictures should be around fifty pixels now. According to the simulated views on the website, DAWN has not been thrusting for several hours, so perhaps they are making their first full rotation movie now.

Also, from my own wikipedia based rough calculations, I'm finding that Vesta's gravity, over the course of a 24 hour day, is currently accelerating the spacecraft to the tune of adding about one quarter of one mile per hour to its approach speed. In metric, an extra 0.12 meters per second per day.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 29 2011, 01:59 AM

The Dawn Framing Camera is holding a vote on Facebook.

It wants to know if we'd be interested in Q&A with the Framing Camera Team (hearing about how images are commanded and acquired) or if we just want to look at the pictures.

--Greg

Posted by: Explorer1 Jun 29 2011, 02:26 AM

The wording of the 2nd option "No, I am just interested in seeing more images" seems like we're not voting against getting new images if the 1st option wins, it's just an 'extra' thing.

So we're win-win either way.

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jun 29 2011, 04:02 AM

Beware, though; it's not a secret ballot. Welcome to the world of Facebook . . .

--Greg

Posted by: tek_604 Jun 29 2011, 08:13 AM

Please don't read too much into this! The guy who updates the Framing Camera page on facebook is Spanish, so not a native English speaker. After I mentioned to him what you had said, he said "oops".

Basically, the options should be, you want the Q&A, or only images.

Also, on a very much related note, can someone please authorise the new user pablogm1024... Once he is authorised, and we get a positive vote for the Q&A, he can do it here on the forum.

Posted by: ngunn Jun 29 2011, 09:10 AM

I'm sure many forum members would welcome that, even if they don't participate in the facebook vote.

Posted by: djellison Jun 29 2011, 04:11 PM

The simulated Vesta shape-file has made it into 'Eyes...'

http://twitpic.com/5ia7dv/full

Cunning combo of low-res poly model, and a normal map derived from the high res shape file (which had >700,000 polys!!)

This should get replaced over time as the science team produce new shape files.

Posted by: ugordan Jun 29 2011, 04:43 PM

I thought about asking this before, now that it's quite obvious Vesta is in reality very lumpy I guess it doesn't hurt - why did their simulated shape model assume such low crater relief? Shouldn't craters be expected to look more bowl-shaped on a body with relatively low gravity?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 29 2011, 04:56 PM

Right, it's a more lunar-like depth/diameter ratio. But I don't think the purpose was a realistic depiction of the surface, it was probably just to add a spacy-looking texture.

Phil

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 29 2011, 04:59 PM

Done, and sounds great! Sorry, we got a bit behind on the new user approval process.

Posted by: pablogm1024 Jun 29 2011, 09:05 PM

Thank you for the approval.

The Q&A is now open under http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=6998 . Please forgive us (and help us) if our inexperience makes us violate some etiquette rules.

Pablo Gutiérrez-Marqués
Dawn Framing Camera Operations Manager

Posted by: bagelverse Jun 29 2011, 09:43 PM

More images Friday according to the Dawn Mission Facebook page

Raj Pillai
Any new pics after June 20th of Vesta?..
Yesterday at 9:15am · Like ·

David Braunstein ‎(Please)^100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
18 hours ago · Like
Dawn Mission Friday!!
13 hours ago · Like · 1 person
David Braunstein Yeah^100
7 hours ago · Like
Raj Pillai I have no idea who is talking about what.. but am I to assume Friday we will get to see newer pics of Vesta?..
3 hours ago · Like
Write a comment...

Posted by: Greg Hullender Jul 1 2011, 01:27 AM

Someone tell him to feel free to violate the rule against in-line images. :-)

--Greg

Posted by: pablogm1024 Jul 1 2011, 03:34 PM

Hi Greg,
Only for you (well, no, for everybody in the forum), a brand new image is now available http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/dawn_vesta_image_062411.asp. Enjoy

Posted by: Ian R Jul 1 2011, 03:50 PM

Fantastic! Thank you Pablo.

I wonder, could you tell us whether the protrusion at the bottom of the image is the central peak of the large south-polar basin?

Posted by: volcanopele Jul 1 2011, 04:33 PM

Are my eyes failing me, or are there some darkish regions across the northern hemisphere of Vesta in this new image? Maria? (the lunar meaning of the word, not the Titanian one...)

Posted by: nprev Jul 1 2011, 04:39 PM

I dunno if I'd go so far as to call them mares yet, but they do look like albedo features!

Posted by: john_s Jul 1 2011, 04:58 PM

Careful- there seems to be an artifact in the released image apparently due to some glitch with the tone curve- you can trace a sharp boundary between two shades of gray all the way round the right limb and across the left-hand side.

John

Posted by: pablogm1024 Jul 1 2011, 07:06 PM

Ian, I can confirm that North is up and South is down, in line with the HST-based shape model that you can find http://planetary.org/explore/topics/asteroids_and_comets/vesta.html.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 1 2011, 07:34 PM

Yeah, that is some kind of ugly processing that's been done on that photo...I'd like to post it but am hoping someone will come along and do something to it to make it look less artifacty.

Posted by: Steve G Jul 1 2011, 07:57 PM

I took my glasses off and a little blurred the picture is somehow more clear. Too much effort on the processing.

Posted by: djellison Jul 1 2011, 07:58 PM

Yeah - this is the point when I wish we could have the images at their native resolution and without the enlargement that's being applied.

Posted by: Decepticon Jul 1 2011, 08:03 PM

My understanding was that some images would be relesed today?

Posted by: djellison Jul 1 2011, 08:06 PM

Decepticon, on this very page of this very thread, an image released today has been linked to and is being discussed. You would almost have to be intentionally trying to miss it to not notice.

Posted by: Steve G Jul 1 2011, 08:06 PM

Posted by: JohnVV Jul 1 2011, 08:12 PM

if we had a raw image ( or a 16 bit gray) we could
but once it is in jpg format ??? you know the saying " garbage in garbage out"
OpNav10_2297_MPS1.jpg ( aka dawn-image-062411.jpg )has way too much info already tossed out by jpg to do much with it

Posted by: Steve G Jul 1 2011, 08:35 PM

It looks like North is at the top, but I'm wondering if that south crater we had been anticipating based on the Hubble data is close to being as dominant as we had been anticipating.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 1 2011, 08:44 PM

"I wonder, could you tell us whether the protrusion at the bottom of the image is the central peak of the large south-polar basin?"

From what we have so far, I think that protrusion is on the rim of the big crater, not its central peak.

The big crater is not going to look very dramatic except with grazing illumination as the seasons change. It's got to be quite old and battered - looks like quite a few superimposed younger craters.

Phil