Here's a real low cost way to land! Why have structural landing legs when you have your own?

Cheaper. Well, look at the lunar landers! An open cockpit landing "chair". It would take some real guts (almost said something else) to ride this thing down from orbit to the surface. What if there's a problem on descent with the engine... or your spacesuit? No ascent stage to abort back to orbit. And of course, you can't bail out... parachutes don't work with no atmosphere.

This type of lander was actually proposed by Langley in the early 1960's when planning how to get to the moon. The new SpaceDev current concept seems just as scary as these old Langley versions:

I think in order for a returning CEV to slow down enough in order to get into a low earth orbit (instead of a direct re-entry), you probably would need a stage similar in size to the Earth departure stage that launched you out of earth orbit to begin with. Plus, you'd have to carry that all through the mission and back. That would also mean your initial EDS stage would have to be that much larger to send all of that toward the moon. The weight of a heat shield would be tiny compared with all that added fuel and stages.

One thing I thought about lately is to have a permanant "fueling depot" in lunar orbit. It would be serviced/refuled by unmanned tankers when needed. The CEV stack would carry the EDS (or some type of large earth return stage) along with it, and (re)fuel it in lunar orbit. It would then be used for both the TEI burn out of lunar orbit, and the final burns into low earth orbit. However, in-space fuel transfer can be tricky. Besides, unless you're returning from Mars and are worried about quarentine, etc... there probably is no real advantage in not having a direct entry.

Also, since the ISS is not in a good orbit (56 deg inclination) to be used for a lunar mission launch/return station, it probably doesn't make much sense not to just reenter directly.

-RedSky

Gee.... no celebration or any mention of Spirit's 1st Martian Birthday. Doesn't Sol 668 mark the end of one Martian year? ... or did I get that wrong?

I looked on the NASA TV schedule, and no mention of anything. Maybe they'll surprise us with something on the JPL site tomorrow.

If you right click over the small mediapalyer, you might get a menu with a Zoom option... and can select "Full Screen".

Been watching for a while. There was one point where everyone stood and stared at the white screen (which seems to have numbers/writing on it... altitude?). Does anyone know the status or timeline for the event?

Besides reading the realtime posts on the excellent SpaceflightNow coverage mentioned above, this link has several animations (down the right side of the page) on Soyuz entry.

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz.html

Basically, there's the de-orbit burn; then, just before the craft gets to the top of the discernable atmosphere (entry interface), the 3 modules separate and reenter... the middle descent module with the crew and its forward facing heatshield. This is followed by a series of drogue and main parachutes. Finally, the heatshield is jettisoned, and just before touchdown six solid rockets fire to further cushion the landing.

I think I read where the modules' separation are simply from spring push energy, and they really don't separate too far too quickly. I recall a U.S. astronaut describing his surprise during his Soyuz return at seeing out the window in fairly clear detail the service module reentering parallel to them.... and watching the solar panel wings disintegrating and breaking away!

Just thought I'd try getting a crude visual comparison size-wise between the Apollo LM and the new LSAM. I took a historical photo of the LM with an astronaut next to it, and resized it so he was about the same size as the one on the illustration of the LSAM. That new descent stage is HUGE. With all those tanks, where's the room for APSEPs, 2 rovers, etc?



If it really gets built, I wonder how close the final version will look to the concept illustration. I remember when the LEM (later LM) was to look like this...

Some more details on CEV-LSAM design are starting to come out.:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1069

The new article at NASAwatch addresses some items which caused confusion/uncertainty earlier in this thread:

LSAM (Lunar Surface Access Module) engines provide the LOI burn, as well as any lunar orbital plane changes, etc.

LSAM will have an airlock. From the earlier pictures, I always thought the crew cabin looked like an ISS module with windows for landing/docking views on one side, and an airlock/hatch on the opposite end with the porch and ladder. That smaller diameter puck-shaped projection possibly indicating the airlock. (I wonder if the lander pilots will have seats, or just stand like in the old LM?)

CEV very much like Apollo CSM. No airlock ("contingency EVA" capability" only).

Well, this was all taken from a NASA presentation. Let's see what the contractors come up with. Don't know how much the "look" of the vehicles may change, and how strict the design specs are going to be.

There are things in the works, waiting in the wings until the time is "right"... i.e., when gasoline in the U.S. gets to $5-$8/gal, or it become unprofitable. (its $2.60-$3.10 now, depending on where you live).

First, I'm sure that the U.S. farmers will promote gasohol (a mixture of gasoline and alcohol) .... what with corn being grown for the alcohol. Here in the U.S., each gas (petrol) station usually has three grades... regular, mid, and premium. I can see one of those tanks/pumps going to gasohol once the pure gas price gets to a certain level, and people have some mechanic tinker with their engines' carborators to accept gasohol. That started happening in the U.S. in the 1970's during the oil embargo days here, but when that resolved itself then gasohol went away.

I just saw last week on the local news here in FL, a company that ordered and had gotten delivery of a fleet of 15 vans that run on H2 (hydrogen). Yes, its an environmental statement and publicity stunt, as each vehicle cost over $200k. And they need the H2 delivered and stored at the company. But, I'm sure if this oil crisis described in the previous posts develops, this is something that will cause a quantum leap change within a decade.

Gas stations will start having hydrogen strorage tanks. Cars will start being mass produced to use it.... etc. Just remember.. the free market in the U.S. moves to where the money is. If its in gasohol-powered cars, or hydrogen cars... that will happen in less time than you think. Right now, the big thing here is hybrid-gas-electric cars, with 60 miles/gallon.. They are starting to catch on. I'm sure, in 20 or 30 years, when this gasoline crunch really hits hard... these other things (gasohol, then hydrogen) will move in to take up the slack.

Actually, it reminded me of the leviathan ship Moya from Farscape:

From what I have seen, the EDS is considered a "new" development stage, though it might use SSMEs. Likewise, the SRB stick liquid fueled second stage for the CEV launcher is also considered "new", and has been described with an updated J2 type engine. According to the movie shown at the press conference (available at the main NASA.gov site), the EDS performs the TLI burn, and is jettisoned. The LOI and TEI burns, like Apollo, would be done by the CEV (i.e., service module main engine).

I think what you may have heard regarding "de-orbit" burns has to do with the CEV alone in an earth orbit mission.... such as servicing the ISS. It should be doing such LEO missions (hopefully) for 6 or 7 years before any lunar mission (2012-2018).

Yes, I noticed the large size of the lander right away (at least in the artist concept image released to the public). I thought... "look at the length of that ladder!" I would hope the actual ladder would be a backup, and that they'd have a rail glide platform much like how the robotic arm on the ISS travels along the main beam.



Reading the interview with Max Faget (post 104) on the development of Apollo, one of the original problems was how to get the crew down to the surface! Since the first thinking was just to have the CSM attached to a massive landing stage, that put the hatch VERY high up off the ground!

Regarding the killer cloud article... I actually had to try and convince an alarmed friend why it couldn't be real. Besides the incredulous concept of a mangled informational chaos cloud, the astromonical facts were also just as ludicrous.

Since it was traveling "near the speed of light" heading directly toward earth, and is to arrive in 2014 (June 1 at 9:15 am EDT), that means it must be around 8 or 9 light years away! That's twice as far as the nearest star(s). ... and they say they "saw it" obliterate a large asteroid". At that distance... really. And getting an exact trajectory to earth over an 8 ly path... bah.

A 10 million mile wide cloud is a very tiny cloud, indeed. How electrons, or whatever, could hold themselves together in such a "cloud" is totally unknown. The story might have been actually more scary if it said it was a cloud of positrons that would annililate any matter it came in contact with instead of the mangled information chaos bit.

Also, as huge as a 10 million mile cloud might seem to the public, its only about 1/10th the earth-sun distance. It could easily slip through the solar system and never touch a thing.

Anyway, these alarmist jokesters should have a science advisor if they want their "stories" to have legs. That could really be dangerous.

The fourth guy must be taking the picture

Actually, that makes me think... will (should) the new LM have an airlock? Seems wasteful to depress the whole cabin... especially over and over again during a 7 day stay. Also, what if one of the four guys' moonsuits goes balky. Without an airlock, that means no EVA, for anyone, and probably a quick departure and failed mission.

And leaving an unattended CSM? Hopefully, it will be completely monitored and fully remote capable (meaning a few lunar orbiting comm sats for telemetry when its on the far side). I remember a few instances of leaky or stuck RCS thrusters that had to be shut down. What if the CSM is tumbling on the LMs return. They've got to be sure it can be remotely stabilized in order to perform the docking.

BTW, here's a site with an interview by one of the main designers of the original Apollo... Max Faget. Its very interesting reading the history of how all the initial thoughts came together to make the Apollo we knew.

http://klabs.org/home_page/faget/sp4223.htm

Well, that's one of the main problems with U.S. politics and setting any long-range goals. The next president will likely decide to can it. I'm sure what we'll be left with is only the Apollo-CSM on a stick as the shuttle replacement.... and all the rest (which is deferred to later) will just be a non-start.

Maybe its the planet killer cloud interacting with some matter and generating some visible light.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/wwn/20050912/112653720001.html

Who makes up these stories?! I can see this getting on the evening news and talk shows drawing much alarm. There's just enough that sounds like science to cause the media and public to ignore the "tongue-in-cheek" babble (mangled information chaos cloud produced by Hawking black hole radiation).

I finally (re)found the page showing the Energia boosters soft-landing sequence. Because I don't know Russian, its not easy to find my way around this site. But anyway, near the bottom of the page there is actually a graphic that shows the booster "landed" on its struts. Perhaps, today, they might have considered airbags instead of the struts, since any horizontal motion in the cutes' descent might make for a pretty tough time for struts.

http://www.buran.ru/htm/09-3.htm

And here is a page with photos showing the boosters being mass produced.

http://www.buran.ru/htm/08-3.htm

To think, 25 years ago, what U.S. space & military planners would have done to have had a look at those pictures that today, are mere historical curiosities.

The Buran itself only had the equivalent of the U.S. Shuttle's two orbital manuvering system (OMS) engines at the back. The main engines for launch were on the aft of the tank. That's why the Energia stack could be used as heavy lift launcher without Buran.

Its funny that the poor Energia of 20 years ago was already very close to (if not better than) what is trying to be developed by the new Shuttle Derived Launch Vehicle proposals. Instead of the two solid fuled SRBs, Energia typically used 4 strap-on liquid fuled boosters. It could even use 6 strap on boosters (or eight, if they ever went to an in-line vertical cargo carrier instead of the side attached cargo configuration).

BTW, the strap on liquid fueled boosters were meant to be reusable, which I never knew before. I always wondered what those dark, rectangular pod-like projections were outboard on the fore and aft of the strap on boosters. From the site http://www.buran.ru/htm/rocket.htm and its many fabulous graphics, I found that they housed landing struts. The boosters were to parachute down, being held horizontal (not vertical like the SRBs), and land on the extended struts.

Here's another site with a lot of Energia-Buran photos and graphics:

http://www.buran.ru/htm/rocket.htm

If you click the image of the Energia-Buran stack on the left of the page, you'll go to a page about the Polyus battle station. Unfortunately, I don't think there's an English language version, and my Russian is not too good. But here's another old standby location about it (and anything else astronautical):

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/polyus.htm

This topic does seem to reappear every now and then. I originally remember it as being an unnoticed "nearby" white dwarf. Except that anything that close (< 2 ly) would have long ago (in the 1940's or 50's) been identified on sky surveys by its high proper motion or parallax. Then it was a brown dwarf. But now with IR obs, that would shine like a beacon at that distance. Then a naked (no disk) black hole. Depending on where it is in its highly elliptical orbit, it might not be noticed or have a noticable effect on things (like Pioneer or Voyagers, ... or maybe it does... the Pioneer Anomaly? ). Since the periaster only has to barely approach the outer Oort cloud to disturb things there.... that's still quite a distance away.

I've never yet heard of "dark matter" as a possibility. I didn't think true DM could even make "big chunks" since it effectively doesn't interact via any force except gravity. Without electromagnetism, there are no atoms or chemical bonds, and no chunks.

-RedSky

I remember that, also. However, I do recall way earlier that NBC used a Bill Baird puppet (a little silver space suited astronaut puppet, moved using thin black sticks like muppets) to try and cover a Gemini EVA, since there was no live TV. The EVA was where the astronaut went to the back of the craft (the big white adapter section of the Gemini) to test using some tools stored there in a tool box. The puppeteer tried to listen to the air-to-ground com in order to choreograph the puppet action to what was being said. Needless to say... with the early com available only when over ground stations (no TDRSS), and very scratchy and garbled, it didn't really work out very well. The puppet seemed a bit "lost" most of the time, not knowing what to do.
I do recall where the puppet was in the back section at the tool box (since he was following the timeline), but then heard on the com that the astronaut was really only halfway there. Because it was live with no "cutaways", the poor puppet had to scurry back out to where the astronaut really was!

I also remember the early Gemini-Agena dockings, where NBC again tried some innovative (but now, laughable) stuff: They had an HO scale model train track set in a huge circle, and another track that gradually spiralled out to this large "orbit". A motorized wheelset carried a model of the Agena on the outer orbit round and round. Another motorized set carried a Gemini model on the spiral track until it reached the switch track onto the final "orbit". Then, finally, they would "dock" (i.e., one would run into the other!). Even back then as a kid, I thought it was a pretty idiotic way to illustrate the concept.

I've been seeing since last night what you are reporting, Chem... 4666 NEW. I'm using Netscape 7.1. I went and tried viewing the site with MS Internet Explorer... and saw what mhoward reports.... all 58k+ images marked as NEW.

(Edit: Maybe if there are > 999 new, the comma screws things up royally in the code. Sort of like a Y2K bug. Viewed with Netscape, there *ARE* many old sol's that show new images, but not ALL of them the way IE is doing. Whether there are really 4,666 new, I don't know. I don't have time to add them up).

Your Apollo 11 time mirror concept is both very enlightening and depressing.

You are actually being quite optimistic when you say:
"I for one won't believe we will leave LEO until the hardware to do it is actually being built."

I, myself, wish I could be that hopeful. Don't forget, there are ISS modules sitting in a storage area at KSC which will probably never see the vacuum of space. (And, in another field, don't forget the Superconducting Super Collider that was half excavated, then abandoned).

I'll believe we really are going to do it after the initial "test flights". Don't forget, there were Apollo's 7, 8, 9, and 10 before 11's landing. When we get a launch date set for the equivalent of an Apollo 8 type shake-down mission... then I'll believe it.

Edit: (And don't forget the Saturn V's for the cancelled Apollos 18, 19, and 20 are now tourist attractions at KSC, Houston JSC, and Huntsville AL).

New Spirit & Oppy route maps out at JPL (30 Aug):


http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/traverse_maps.html


(new day-by-day summaries out for both, too)

(Edited: Look at the last (wide-view) Spirit map at full size... .and look REAL CLOSELY into the Ultreya Abyss! You'll see evidence for artificial intelligence!

David... you expressed my sentiments exactly. Some of the initial black & white navcams from the summit... with windswept dunes and textured, weathered rock, and vistas of Tennessee Valley, and the plains beyond... are really artistic in the same league as an Ansel Adams photo of Yosemite in the western U.S. And the dust devils just make it seem that much more "alive". Then the color pancams... wow. You just get the feeling that you're able to stand there and witness this place.. I just have to add my thanks to all on this forum who work so feverishly to bring such incredible vistas to life..... and to the MER team for providing all this raw info to work with!