And ChemCam is getting really good signal, great details in the spectra. It is wondrous to get this kind of information so quickly, no long integration times to slow us down with this instrument.

Will this tend to make some of the science stops along the traverse path a little shorter than we're used to with the MERs, I wonder?

-the other Doug

I knew in advance I would see the very first tracks from MSL start from nowhere (so to speak), unlike any of the MER wheel tracks (which at their very beginning start from the edge of their landers). But it's still sort of eerie to see it.

-the other Doug

And we are *tall*.

Great clip of Ray Bradbury from 1971.

-the other Doug

This discussion reminds me very much of one of the appendices to the hardcover volume containing a number of the science results papers from Mars Pathfinder. The appendix discussed the color of Mars.

Because of the various super-res pans they ran through each of the filters, they had a good number of color images, and the appendix followed the discussion as to how to best present the colors.

It then went on to present, as closely as they could possibly manage, the color, contrast and lighting of the scene as it would appear to a human eye standing on the surface of Mars. They then adjusted the image to how it would appear under the same pink sky but with sunlight as bright as that on Earth (which is the mix they tended to use for press release images), then under white light (i.e., pure white sunlight and also a pure white sky, no tint at all). And finally they adjusted the image to how it would appear literally on Earth, with the admixture of scattered blue light from our blue sky.

It was a very interesting presentation, which has from then on given me a mind's eye image of Mars as a rather flat-toned, low-contrast place with a feeling of overcast even under a cloudless sky.

-the other Doug

I also have to say I'm happy with the choice of InSight, as I've been seriously wanting heat flow data from Mars for a really long time, and a good, sensitive seismometer is worth an awful lot, too. (Too bad the seismometers attached to the Viking lander structures didn't work very well, if at all.)

Yet, as so many have expressed, it's bittersweet. We would all, I'm sure, love to see the vistas from a Titanian lake. However, remember that vistas are only one part of the reason for exploring our solar system. A good TiME mission would likely have given views of the ripples on the surface of the lake that are like a meter away, unless it would have had some kind of mast to raise a camera well above the top of the waves. A detailed study of the liquids in the lake would have been the primary mission, not sending back stirring images of distant shores. And as important and interesting as is that science, if we had to make a choice, I guess I'd prefer getting the heat flow and seismic data from Mars first.

Besides, a TiME-like probe could eventually be incorporated into an as-yet-undefined flagship mission to the outer planets. There likely won't be any further flagship-level missions to Mars in the near term, at least until we're ready to consider sample return. I like the idea of using a Discovery slot or two to fill in the gaps in our Mars dataset, to help us decide on the parameters of a potential MSR mission.

It will take a great deal of time to pony up the resources to explore all the places we want to explore. I guess in this case, we should rejoice in what we can get and cultivate patience for what we didn't get this time around. Because, as with orbital trajectories, what goes around, comes around.

-the other Doug

Thanks, Fred. The Mystery Man and les Tours Eiffel (I hope I didn't massacre that spelling too badly) give a truly fine sense of scale to the scene.

Which leads me to another thing that I've been wondering about ever since the first navcam pan came down. The rim of Gale is obviously a lot closer to the north and west than to the south and east, but as you look directly east, at the far rim wall and past the rising flank of Mt. Sharp, the rim (and even the rise of the lower mound) become very indistinct, as if there is an awful lot of haze in the air in that direction. The haze layer straight to the west only obscures perhaps the lower 20% of the rim, while it obscures the entire rim to the east.

I know this could simply be an artifact of sun angle and the angle through which we are looking at a relatively uniform haze layer. But it strikes me that this could be evidence of strong prevailing winds from the east that flow around the rim, kicking dust over the east rim that then slowly settles closer to the ground as it circulates around the crater.

I'll be interested in seeing images of the rim from higher up on the mound, at different times of day and also at different times of year.

-the other Doug

There are several Martian "features" which do resemble the results of plate tectonics on Earth, like the moving hot spot that seems to have left volcanoes all in a row in Tharsis, and the magnetically striped surface in the southern heavily cratered terrain.

However, as Phil very rightly points out, there are no features extant on Mars that suggest plate subduction. I can imagine a number of different possible models, including an early period when Mars' crust was rotationally uncoupled from the mantle, which could account for the tectonic-like features we do see. After all, there seems to be good evidence that the Moon's solid crust and nearly solid mantle are even now rotationally uncoupled from its small, purportedly molten core. Perhaps impacts large enough to leave enormous basins, like Imbrium or Hellas, have the ability to uncouple the crust from the mantle for shorter or longer periods of time.

-the other Doug

Lenticular displays? Kewl -- I'd have to think that would be really sensitive to head/eye positioning, though.

Working for a big cable company, I've been able to see a lot of the various attempts at 3D TV over the past five years or so, culminating in what has finally been marketed to the public (the special glasses that blink each eye on and off in sync with the interleaved R/L HDTV images). It does work and provides acceptable 3D images for most people, but we've also found that it's sensitive to view angle, so you can't have more than two or three people comfortably viewing 3D TVs right now (some 3D TVs only support use of two pairs of glasses at a time, in fact.)

Also, because the eyes are seeing interleaved images, some people get headaches and nausea from having one eye blocked half the time and the other eye blocked the other half of the time, 180 degrees out of sync. Granted it's at something like 30 cycles per second per eye, which is not noticeable consciously. But in some people it does generate a variety of physiological responses.

-the other Doug

At a base level, viewing something in 3D must involve making each eye see slightly different versions of each image. The red/blue glasses do this with a base color set, the 3D Imax movies do it by applying polarized gradients on each image so that each eye's polarized film on their 3D glasses only lets in that eye's image. Unfortunately, I don't believe they've figured out how to polarize different images differently on a computer or TV display, at least not yet.

The 3D televisions work by aligning separate images in tune with a set of glasses that blocks one eye for the fraction of a second the image that's displayed is for the other eye.

So, unless you can build a 3D tank with pixels that set in three dimensions, I think we're stuck with some kind of glasses for 3D effects for the foreseeable future. The option where the monitor image is displayed twice, once each in the lenspieces of a pair of goggles, will give you the best overall image but as has been mentioned can cause headaches from both the goggle arrangement and from the weight of those goggle setups at present.

That's the best rundown I can give on the options at present for 3D viewing.

-the other Doug

I dunno, the ventifact at the bottom of that same image (below) looks even more like it might have some layering in it, to me. Of course, it could just be variously deposited surface rinds.



-the other Doug

Hey, all -- nice redesign of the raw image pages on the MSL site. Now individually selectable by camera and by sol, new images for a given sol indicated with a red asterisk. And the page where you select the camera whose products you want to view has you click on an illustration of the camera and its location on the vehicle from pre-launch pictures of MSL.

Nice work!

-the other Doug

I agree that's likely what the thinking is on the part of the producers of these lightweight pieces. But, IMHO, if you want Joe Public to keep from getting bored, play up the sense of wonder aspects, not the cute, smiling host/hostess aspect. Seems to me that Stu's outreach program proves that. (Not that we don't think you're cute and smiling, Stu... )

-the other Doug

Very helpful and well-done, Brian. Thank you very much. It's extremely useful to see the milestones as they pass during the descent.

Looking forward to seeing this kind of thing with the high-res images.



-the other Doug

Yep, the speaker quoted Mike Malin's comment from when the original thumbnail film was released that they can't just take the memory stick out of MARDI and put it into the Rover's main computer, so yeah, the discussion was specifically about the MARDI images.

Really good point about the difference between getting them out of the camera and getting them back down to Earth, though. Thanks. The new full-res images that are popping up are really whetting my appetite, though...

-the other Doug

That's what I thought Mike Malin said, too, but what I *thought* I heard early in the telecon was "we're going to be getting the rest of those pictures out of the camera today." I definitely could have mis-heard, or the speaker could have mis-spoken. But I do note that high-res MARDI images are beginning to flow into the raw images page.

-the other Doug

Well, seeing a few full-res frames showing up in the MARDI collection from Sol 0 on the raw images pages. I checked last night and only found the one full-res image, of the heat shield shortly after release, that's been there for about a week. I just found two more full-res images, and more seem to be posting as we speak (after I found the first new one, I refreshed and the positions of the images changed, showing addition of new images, and then I found a second new one).



-the other Doug

Quick edit -- now there are at least four new full-res pics, more coming in. Links to a few of them:

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/ms...0124E1_DXXX.jpg

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/ms...0200E1_DXXX.jpg

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/ms...0256E1_DXXX.jpg

So, they said they're going to get the rest of the full-res MARDI pictures back this Sol? I'm really, really looking forward to seeing the entire descent film in high-res.

One thing, though. At least in the thumbnail version of the film, it was not extremely obvious what camera movements corresponded with major events, such as release from backshell, avoidance maneuver, etc. Does anyone have any ideas on how the full-res movie could be annotated to indicate these landmarks?

-the other Doug

Hmmm... working fine for me. I just wish I could see all the images as they discuss them. All I've found thus far is the HiRISE color image of the landing site.

-the other Doug

Agreed, Stu. Besides, it is *not* part of NASA's mission to drag the American people, kicking and screaming, into using the metric system. That's not an education issue, it's a conversion-of-faith issue...

-the other Doug

Very true, but a study of the Upper Mound may shed some light on how it was formed, which will give us a much better understanding of the formation of such features on Mars.

Granted, not as sexy as finding potential habitable conditions in the distant past, but still of great interest when it comes to understanding how Mars came to be the way it is today.

-the other Doug

You have to love the rocks around the landing site. I particularly like the ventifact at the right side of this detail, looks like a writing desk on its side.



-the other Doug

I would think the initial identification of the surface materials we landed on as lag deposits would support the idea of erosional deflation of a basin fill that was piled much deeper and higher, once upon a time.

-the other Doug

I've no idea the kinds of trenching operations that might be planned for Curiosity, but I do know that the wheel on Spirit that eventually failed started showing high drive currents fairly early on, right after the drive to the Columbia Hills, and that the issue was ameliorated by driving backwards much of the time. Running the wheels backwards moved lubricants from where they built up in the bearings back throughout the bearing enclosure, from what I understand.

Oppy has also shown high drive currents on more than one of its wheels, IIRC, but for Oppy they seem to drive backwards most of the time and only drive forwards when they get a recurrence of the high drive currents.

Of course, Paolo could give us a lot more detailed info on the MER wheels, their failure modes and how these impact MSL operations than I ever could. I only know what I've read, mostly here...

-the other Doug

By the Discovery piece, I'm assuming you mean the special that ran on Science the evening of 8/6 and was re-run several times during the week?

Yeah -- that piece didn't appear to be structured in any useful way. It reminded me of a local TV station's news truck going out to JPL and grabbing interviews with whoever wanders by for their views on the landing. There was nothing there you didn't get by watching the landing coverage and the post-landing presser. And the smiling hosts reminded me of the educational programming they run on NASA TV aimed at eight-year-olds with a second grade reading level. Useful for grade schools, maybe, but well under par for their normal space programming.

-the other Doug

In regards a comment I made earlier where I said I expected a little more vertical relief in the black-sand dune field between the landing site and Mt. Sharp, I've done a heavy contrast enhancement and a 2x vertical stretch of a portion of the dune field visible in the Mastcam pan:



Really looks, at least in this area, like the black sand fills in topographic lows rather than building up dune constructs on top of the underlying unit(s). It almost looks like you could easily cross the dune field at any number of points if you just stay on the topographic highs.

-the other Doug