I believe Handel wrote a piece of music specifically for this event

Doug

talking of popping up again...

I've added a few bits - can you tell I was bored on the train yesterday

This thread had happily died, and was more about storms in general. 'the storm' is a thread more relevant to the rovers. If they were merged, the posts here would loose their context.

Doug

I think it needs a 'might be spiral but there's not quite enough detail to tell, so I have to say elliptical' button.

Doug

I try not to think of that incase I offend them all by getting the categorization wrong

Doug

Now we'e heard that 20-25M figure at that press con - we can say that running the rovers costs approx $55 - 70k per day - or $27-35k per rover per day. As my colleague Josh has just pointed out - about the same, per rover, as David Beckham gets paid

Doug

The varying morphology and density as seen at Endurance, Eagle and Erebus would be indicative of such movement would it not?

Also - invoking any water at the surface to create the spherules would preclude the existance of Olivine
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/pre...y_bw-B011R1.jpg

i.e. http://www.astrobio.net/news/article653.html
"Olivine is significant because it decomposes rapidly in the presence of water. Finding olivine on the surface is therefore a good indicator of a dry Martian surface."

Now - it does say one of the things it can be decomposed into is hematite - but - how does the decomposition of soil turn into a hematite rich ball and/or how can there still be olivine when it's widely assumed Mars has been just about the same for a billion years or more.

Doug

And as I have said before - no. This remains a theory that is against the mainstream view. Don's efforts are appreciated Other members would have had posts deleted for that sort of behaviour he is getting away with here. We have decided within the admin subforum that this subject should remain within this one thread. He's already recieving more than fair treatment - the condition is that the subject remains contained here otherwise every thread turns into an athena-vs-burt argument, and that's not going to happen. There are other forums which might be more open to a fragmented debate about this issue - this is not one. End of issue.

Doug

Infact -thinking about it - I remember finding comedy in the fact that a Sirocco was dumping sand on my mums VW Sirocco.

Doug

THREE sheds. Technically I had a little brick one at the end of the garage, the woodern office one...and then I'll probably get a small JCB in and go for some sort of large basement in the garden

Doug

This page - http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/pre.../20040818a.html - highlights many of the problems with a surface genesis for Spherules and active surface creation. It's a different composition at the top than the bottom - as well as berries being different ( and indeed absent ). Why is there material forming on rocks hiding berries, but not on the soil. Why is there a composition change in the surface that ties in to the morphological evidence as seen at Endurance if the surface is modern?

All credit for thinking outside the box - and without serious challenges, no scientific hypothesis can be said to be a robust or reliable one!

Doug

Saharan dust landing on cars in the UK isn't uncommon - I remeber two distinct occurances of that in the past decade or so.
Meanwhile - updated to 1230/1250 actual figures

Massive kudos to Mark for putting these on line so quickly.

A straw poll (and given the nature of forum software, such things are easily done ) of the two main rock formation theories would be an interesting thing. I think it's only fair to give HDP's hypothesis more airing time, and then we could do a poll to see which camp people fall down on.

Doug

I'm sure I heard 3x (i.e. 270 sols for MER )

Doug

Plan is for me to pull all the questions together - hand them to Rob, and Rob will do written answers.

BUT

I'm not giving Rob the questions till after Phoenix is away I'm not going to get the blame if Phoenix has EDL issues.

My advice - forget it was ever thought of, and then it'll be a nice suprise when Rob starts answering the questions

Doug

1200 sols without significant dust deposition on lenses - and workarounds for when there are anyway (new flatfields onboard etc). For a 600ish sol Primary mission for MSL - such a thing isn't going to be necessary or required. Yes - I know it will likely last MUCH longer, but the primary mission is what you design for.

Doug

The Silica Valley tracks have been virtually wiped out in the last couple of weeks. Amazing stuff.

Doug

It's not about 'giving an inch', and compared to other places, hell, this is still friendly if you ask me

You've proposed a theory on the origin of the spherules. I've raised some issues that I think question that theory- and yet you've twice posted about something else (coatings) rather than tackle the issues raised. Indeed - you're ignoring them. The Spherules in the rock are NOT the same for the full height of the endurance outcrops. They're different from the top to the bottom - and they're totally absent by the time you get to Erebus. You can not possibly explain that if you maintain a surface origin for them.

There IS evidence that they formed within the layers - bellybands have been observerd where they have formed and grown a little between layers - the berries will not have distored layers, the layers distorted the formation of the berries it would seem. Why does this make concretions more 'difficult' to believe. What terrestrial analogues for spherules-in-rock can you cite to say this is not the case? Some have appeared only AFTER a rat hole has been formed and thus catagorically not on a modern surface - unless you are suggesting that many MM's of sulphate / jarosite rich rock are being desposited today.)

If you've ever tried to cut a piece of hematite with a dremel or a drill, you'll know why they exhibit little erosion. A diamond tipped cutting machine takes a couple of hours to get through one, whereas the rock takes a few minutes.

Why is the transport of the berries so hard to imagine via wind...this is a wind that almost totally eroded a wheel track in less than a year. (infact, in the most recent case almost within a week) Imagine what it can do with a billion years.

If you're challenging other theories because you think they have issues, then you have to expect issues to be similarly raised about your own theory. It's not giving an inch - it's exercising the same critical thinking you say you're using with other theories. Of all the theories, it's the one that I have the hardest time buying.

And of course, the biggest issue of all...how do you creative hematite rich spherules on the surface of Mars?

These issues are not about giving an inch. If someone said "they were put there by the berry-ferry" but then couldn't explain how, or why, or answer to some of the contrary evidence then essentially all you've got is a belief system. That isn't science.

Doug

(I've merged the posts from the other thread into this one - they're sit slightly out of order, but it makes sense)

http://midnightmarsbrowser.blogspot.com/

Get it.

Be confused no more.



Doug

Yup - raw images 101. The date something appears at the Exploratorium has little relation to when it was actually taken. The file name shows you when it was taken

1M236222506EFF85R9P2976M2M1

That's the time tag in red.



Doug

Apart from 'it looks like' - on what basis do you draw that conclusion? Martian dust is perfectly happy to cling to vertical surfaces (see the Sundail Gnomon for example) - Have you compared pre and post rat spectra?

And to be honest, this doesn't touch any of the issues I raised about your theory.

Doug

I've seen you mention your theory that the spherules are essentially a surface feature. The problem I have with that is why, then, are there non in the outcrops up around Erebus? Why are they different from the top ( Eagle ) to the bottom ( low in Endurance ). How do you explain the fact that some were found within the rock itself visible only after a rat grinding? Or - if you can expain that - then what evidence is there that they exist to a depth exposed by the RAT, but no further? What mechanism for their formation can you come up given their composition? Seems to bring up more questions than observations it explains.

Doug

Brine splat stuff stays in this thread however.

Doug

Ignore the last Opportunity point - that's my guess, not an actual value.

I THINK...(well, guess) that we're closer to the 400 whr level rather than the 255 whr level now.

Doug

Absence of objection doesn't mean evidence of support.

Doug