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James Fincannon
Posted on: Sep 2 2009, 01:05 PM


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QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 1 2009, 08:40 PM) *
A fantastic new picture today, Tsiolkovsky's central peak, with approximately a zillion boulder trails...


Here is an odd set of boulders, sitting in the the middle of a area of craters, but not part of a crater. Is it one boulder that fractured on landing?


Attached Image

  Forum: LRO & LCROSS · Post Preview: #145579 · Replies: 509 · Views: 554882

James Fincannon
Posted on: Sep 1 2009, 08:49 PM


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QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 1 2009, 08:40 PM) *
A fantastic new picture today, Tsiolkovsky's central peak, with approximately a zillion boulder trails...

The caption ask the question - are the blocks from the peaks, or were they thrown there by distant impacts? I think we can safely say they are local. If rocks were thrown around as the question implies, flat areas would be covered with them too. But on the flat areas away from fresh craters and slopes they are rare. And rocks scattered all over this region could hardly collect preferentially on steep slopes and summits. In fact they should preferentially collect elsewhere because most rocks falling on slopes would roll off immediately.

Phil



Its awfully nice of them to be providing these nice images with lots of boulder trails for us to ponder.
  Forum: LRO & LCROSS · Post Preview: #145540 · Replies: 509 · Views: 554882

James Fincannon
Posted on: Sep 1 2009, 08:23 PM


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QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Aug 29 2009, 02:03 PM) *
The new image 2amazing mentioned is now on the LROC browse page. It's in Balmer, a big smooth-plains-floored basin near the limb, and one of the Constellation priority targets.

http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc_browse

Here's a crop... ejecta blocks south of the fresh crater. Some of them hit the ground with enough horizontal velocity to roll away from the crater - these are the first boulder tracks I've ever seen away from steep slopes (Hey James!)

[attachment=18853:balmer_rock_trails.jpg]


Phil



Yes, this one has alot of boulder tracks. Qualitatively, it is interesting how thin the dust layer is as evident of the difference between the width of some boulders and narrowness of their track. How deep is the soft stuff supposed to be?

Attached Image
  Forum: LRO & LCROSS · Post Preview: #145537 · Replies: 509 · Views: 554882

James Fincannon
Posted on: Aug 23 2009, 03:06 PM


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http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc_browse/view/M10463421LE

This was released just prior to the Necho one and on the same day. As can be seen it has really nice resolution/contrast tracks visible at the Apollo 14 site. Of course, these were also imaged on a prior pass and discussed, but they still are impressive. The various images I have seen to show these tracks do not do them justice so I magnified them by 2X and used the Geomatica Freeview palette adjustments to improve the contrast.

Attached Image
  Forum: LRO & LCROSS · Post Preview: #145139 · Replies: 509 · Views: 554882

James Fincannon
Posted on: Aug 19 2009, 07:20 PM


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QUOTE (charborob @ Aug 19 2009, 06:29 PM) *
Nice trails. We're starting to see the Moon like never before.

I find it difficult to evaluate the size of the blocks. The LROC image browser lacks a scale bar. Even if the pixel size is mentioned, I don't find it very useful. I suppose I could download the TIFF files and count the pixels, but they are large files. Sometimes with Photoshop (version 7) I could not open them.



If you have the luxury to download the actual tifs, it can still be a bother to try to load them and view them. I use PCI Geometica Freeview Version 10.0
http://www.pcigeomatics.com/index.php?opti...7&Itemid=12
It is nice because it is free, can load 1 Gb files easily and has many different kinds of visual enhancement tools which the LROC image browser lacks/ makes it hard to resolve some features.

I zoomed in by a factor of 2 the LRO image to capture my rolling boulder images and presented all images at the same scale (the LRO raw image is 1.46 m/pixel so if my images are viewed at 100%, then every two by two pixels is 1.46 m by 1.46 m). It is somewhat lossy due to jpeg storage economy. So, for my lower left image boulder (the largest), it is 16 by 21 magnified pixels which is 8 by 10.5 standard pixels or 12 m by 15 m.
  Forum: LRO & LCROSS · Post Preview: #144997 · Replies: 509 · Views: 554882

James Fincannon
Posted on: Aug 19 2009, 03:56 PM


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QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Aug 19 2009, 11:37 AM) *
I couldn't get it last night but I can now.

There are some nice rolling rock trails on the walls of the main valley, both north and south sides. I'm also struck by how smooth the surface looks compared with typical mare surfaces. This is a place that would be easy to land on.

Phil



Yes, some nice ones. Here is what I found.
Attached Image
  Forum: LRO & LCROSS · Post Preview: #144990 · Replies: 509 · Views: 554882

James Fincannon
Posted on: Aug 10 2009, 01:25 PM


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QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Aug 9 2009, 04:22 PM) *
James, look at the Apollo or Surveyor images taken on the surface and you will see that rocks are actually quite rare, outside of specific locations: the rims of fresh craters, or at the foot of a slope where they collect after rolling. Apollo images (later missions especially) are in fact a bit misleading, since many sampling stations were chosen to be in groups of rocks (Apollo 17 Station 5 and Station 6, or Apollo 16 at North Ray being good examples). I've been having this discussion with some Google Lunar X Prize teams, who have greatly exaggerated the danger of landing on rocks and maybe under-rated the danger of landing on sloping crater walls.

To me the LROC images match very closely what the surface images lead me to expect.

Phil


I thought Apollo sites were selected to reduce landing risk by picking flat, hazard free places.

What is your estimate of frequency of 1 m diameter boulders? 1 per square kilometer? 1 per 100m^2?
  Forum: LRO & LCROSS · Post Preview: #144573 · Replies: 509 · Views: 554882

James Fincannon
Posted on: Aug 9 2009, 03:55 PM


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QUOTE (Zvezdichko @ Aug 7 2009, 06:53 PM) *
Yes! This sample is just another example of rock movement.

Because this is what I think has happened while looking at these images.

We can clearly seen the trails. But what could have caused this? The Moon is a dead body for millions of years.


Back in the old Lunar Orbiter days they developed alot of theories for why the boulders eventually rolled downhill. I will have to did up the old reports. I recall thermal cycling and impacts of meteors causing tremors factored into it.

My main interest in these is that they permit the deduction of regolith mechanical properties without having to land there. We don't really have any instruments to deduce these mechanical properties remotely. Landers or rovers could of course, but that is way too costly. During the Lunar Orbiter days, they found a slew of these in the very high resolution images (~1-3m/pixel, which only covered a small percentage of the surface) and derived regolith properties in preparation for Apollo landings.

One of the concerns about the regolith is how much variation there is in its properties over the entire surface. Since interest exists for the near polar regions, it would be nice to be assured the properties are the same there as near the equator. Rolling boulders should be distributed fairly equally over the surface and if there aren't many near the poles, that is significant.

Also, looking at these images, I had supposed there would be many more rocks and boulders (which would be especially visible at some of the shallow Sun elevations for the images), but there seems to be many more craters than boulders (~an order of magnitude). Does this make sense?

  Forum: LRO & LCROSS · Post Preview: #144546 · Replies: 509 · Views: 554882

James Fincannon
Posted on: Aug 7 2009, 06:47 PM


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Attached Image
QUOTE (Zvezdichko @ Aug 5 2009, 02:59 PM) *


Although its not possible to see in the LRO image browser, this image has many boulder tracks in it if you download the tiff and adjust the contrast/brightness appropriately.

I have attached a sample.
  Forum: LRO & LCROSS · Post Preview: #144482 · Replies: 509 · Views: 554882

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