Rosetta flyby of Asteroid Steins, 5th September 2008 |
Rosetta flyby of Asteroid Steins, 5th September 2008 |
Sep 8 2008, 09:54 AM
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#211
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Member Group: Members Posts: 147 Joined: 14-April 06 From: Berlin Member No.: 744 |
I think I'll wait on that for better data on Vesta and Ceres. In the meantime, you can see the current status of a related project I'm working on, to look at scales of stuff in the solar system, starting here: http://planetary.org/explore/topics/compar...le_1000000.html It's far from complete, has various formatting issues, and breaks down toward the end. Also I notice that my Prometheus image seems to be mis-scaled. --Emily Hi Emily, A friend of mine has done a similar job with the irregular moons of the Solar System. The derivative is copyright Andrzej Karon 2008: He is also considering doing the same with asteroids. -------------------- |
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Sep 8 2008, 10:05 AM
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#212
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Rover Driver Group: Members Posts: 1015 Joined: 4-March 04 Member No.: 47 |
Amazing images! What a strange shape! It reminds me of someone pushing a thumb in a play-dough ellipsoid, pushing through such that the bottom gets a lump I wonder what made Steins look like that...
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Sep 8 2008, 10:09 AM
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#213
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Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 13-July 08 Member No.: 4264 |
About the crater chain: Gravitational disruption is not the only mechanism for cometary breakup, so it could be possible, though admittedly unlikely, that a recently disrupted comet crashed into Steins. It's also notable that the scale is much smaller than for crater chains seen elsewhere (not clear if such small comets exist).
On the other hand, contrary to other posters, I find a chance alignment unlikely. Can anyone point me to a "chance alignment" of 7 or so craters out of the largest 20 or 30 on any other asteroid or moon? We need some more quantitative analysis here. About the loss of NAC images, it's like Emily said. The NAC at closest approach would have given factor ~5 better resolution than the WAC, 9 minutes before it's comparable to the WAC at closest approach. A rule of thumb says that one needs of the order of 100 pixels for a good analysis of global properties, some topography, and so on. With the NAC it would have been around 300, with the WAC it's around 60. Michael |
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Sep 8 2008, 10:52 AM
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#214
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Solar System Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 10153 Joined: 5-April 05 From: Canada Member No.: 227 |
"Can anyone point me to a "chance alignment" of 7 or so craters out of the largest 20 or 30 on any other asteroid or moon? "
Famous example: the apparent chain of six large craters extending south from Ptolemaus on the central meridian of our moon, long touted as proof of their internal origin. Look at the 'rivers' I mentioned above. Purely random chains you can see every day. Look at stucco. Randomness includes lots of apparent patterns. Phil -------------------- ... because the Solar System ain't gonna map itself.
Also to be found posting similar content on https://mastodon.social/@PhilStooke Maps for download (free PD: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Cartography.pdf NOTE: everything created by me which I post on UMSF is considered to be in the public domain (NOT CC, public domain) |
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Sep 8 2008, 01:29 PM
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#215
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Member Group: Members Posts: 599 Joined: 26-August 05 Member No.: 476 |
Karol,
That is a very eye-catching comparative diagram of the moons. A small correction. The planetary symbol for Ganymede should be Jupiter, not Saturn! |
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Sep 8 2008, 02:49 PM
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#216
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Member Group: Members Posts: 699 Joined: 3-December 04 From: Boulder, Colorado, USA Member No.: 117 |
I have a nagging memory that there was a New Horizons instrument that safed during the Jupiter flyby for a similar reason (safety tolerances set very conservatively, given the fact that Jupiter was not the prime target). Is this right? Does anybody remember which one? --Emily That was Alice, the UV spectrometer. Background count rates due to Jovian radiation exceeded a pre-set conservative threshold so the instrument switched itself off. The flight team was able to upload a higher threshold value during the encounter, but by then background levels had fallen anyway. So we still got a fair amount of Alice data, including a very nice Jupiter stellar occultation early in the encounter, before the background got too high. John |
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Sep 8 2008, 04:03 PM
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#217
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Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 13-July 08 Member No.: 4264 |
"Can anyone point me to a "chance alignment" of 7 or so craters out of the largest 20 or 30 on any other asteroid or moon? " Famous example: the apparent chain of six large craters extending south from Ptolemaus on the central meridian of our moon, long touted as proof of their internal origin. Look at the 'rivers' I mentioned above. Purely random chains you can see every day. Look at stucco. Randomness includes lots of apparent patterns. Phil The large craters south of Ptolemaus are much smaller relative to the size of the moon than the craters on Steins relative to Steins. So the likelyhood of finding some chain like this somewhere on the moon is much higher than finding what we see on Steins. |
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Sep 8 2008, 05:25 PM
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#218
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2173 Joined: 28-December 04 From: Florida, USA Member No.: 132 |
Look at the 'rivers' I mentioned above. Purely random chains you can see every day. The scale problem has already been mentioned. The individual pieces of a random chain should be the same scale as the noise they emerge from. To my untrained eye, the chain on Steins seems to be made of craters of a different scale from most of the random craters. Also, it's been mentioned that Steins does not have the strength to tear apart an impactor and that the pieces of an impactor torn apart by another body would not remain together. But what about a "rubble pile" impactor? |
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Sep 8 2008, 05:27 PM
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#219
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3648 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
So the likelyhood of finding some chain like this somewhere on the moon is much higher than finding what we see on Steins. And that's how we come back to what I said earlier - look around long enough and you're bound to find it. I simply can't think of a plausible mechanism that would explain the crater chain as anything more than coincidence. The fact it runs perfectly along the terminator where shadows are brought up is very much ignored here. For all I know, there could be other "linear chains" waiting to be seen if you change the illumination a bit. Maybe even high speed turtles, who knows? Frankly, I find it a bit surprising to see people still see this alignment as something telling/significant, but don't let that stop you. -------------------- |
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Sep 8 2008, 05:32 PM
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#220
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2173 Joined: 28-December 04 From: Florida, USA Member No.: 132 |
The fact it runs perfectly along the terminator where shadows are brought up is very much ignored here. For all I know, there could be other "linear chains" waiting to be seen if you change the illumination a bit. Good point. Frankly, I find it a bit surprising to see people still see this alignment as something telling/significant... Hey. At least we don't see a face (or a high speed turtle). |
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Sep 8 2008, 06:20 PM
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#221
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Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 13-July 08 Member No.: 4264 |
And that's how we come back to what I said earlier - look around long enough and you're bound to find it. I simply can't think of a plausible mechanism that would explain the crater chain as anything more than coincidence. The fact it runs perfectly along the terminator where shadows are brought up is very much ignored here. For all I know, there could be other "linear chains" waiting to be seen if you change the illumination a bit. Maybe even high speed turtles, who knows? It is true that I did not consider illumination conditions and that the reality of the chains is more of a "gut feeling" that may not survive detailed analysis. However, the craters in the chain are large enough to be seen anywhere on the imaged hemisphere, and the asteorid appears far from saturation with craters of that size (otherwise you could indeed easily find those chains). Also, they are of about equal size and spacing, reminiscent of the chains on the galilean moons. And that you (and I) cannot think of a plausible mechanism does not necessarily mean that there is none. |
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Sep 8 2008, 06:40 PM
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#222
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Senior Member Group: Moderator Posts: 2785 Joined: 10-November 06 From: Pasadena, CA Member No.: 1345 |
The fact it runs perfectly along the terminator where shadows are brought up is very much ignored here. ...The "apparent grouping" of craters is roughly parallel to the terminator. It just might be the zone where we get the best contrast response. Hello? Hello? (taps microphone) Is this thing on? -------------------- Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
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Sep 8 2008, 06:48 PM
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#223
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3648 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
However, the craters in the chain are large enough to be seen anywhere on the imaged hemisphere, and the asteorid appears far from saturation with craters of that size (otherwise you could indeed easily find those chains). Again, this is my point. More overhead illumination makes the other craters not stand out so well. For what it's worth, the images widely distributed are magnified so they are blurred and hide the actual pixel scale and make you think small details are not there (when they're actually below resolving power). Here's the actual pixel scale view, magnified 3x using the nearest-neighbor algorithm in order not to add new "details" into the image. I'm seeing several craters of similar size across the face, but they don't poke the eye because they're not on the terminator. The chain craters you speak of do absolutely not appear of the same size to me, the lower 3 ones appear much bigger than the top 4. Yet, the top 4 have a companion off to the left side with also a hint of a fifth crater almost completely shadowed. As far as I'm concerned this case is closed. EDIT: Mike, I didn't mean you, I meant the rest of the folks who believe this feature isn't accidental. -------------------- |
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Sep 9 2008, 12:47 AM
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#224
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2530 Joined: 20-April 05 Member No.: 321 |
Misc. Steins thoughts:
1) The rotation means that the gravity along the "equator" would be about 10% less than at the "poles", assuming a density of 2 g/cm^3. 2) If Steins formed as the fragment of impacts between larger bodies, there could be craters from secondary impacts that occurred precisely at the time of origin as a lot of fragments were briefly on similar trajectories. 3) Phil's comment trumps all: The "chain" craters are not of the same age, so they don't have the same origin. 4) Is everyone pronouncing it "SHTINES" like they should? There's a hacek over that "S"! |
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Sep 9 2008, 01:16 AM
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#225
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Interplanetary Dumpster Diver Group: Admin Posts: 4404 Joined: 17-February 04 From: Powell, TN Member No.: 33 |
4) Is everyone pronouncing it "SHTINES" like they should? There's a hacek over that "S"! Where did you see that? -------------------- |
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