The Pioneer Anomaly |
The Pioneer Anomaly |
Jan 5 2006, 01:16 PM
Post
#91
|
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2488 Joined: 17-April 05 From: Glasgow, Scotland, UK Member No.: 239 |
QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 5 2006, 09:52 AM) Wasn't the spacecraft-solid rocket stack spin stabilized for the duration of the rocket's burn during Jupiter injection or was it also in 3-axis stabilization mode? I would have figured delivery errors would be minimized by spinning up first. Another possible problem with spin-stabilizing is the star sensor, would it be able to cope with starfield smearing during rotation? If all that's required is a beacon, then setting up a slow spin where the aim point of the antenna nutates around the position of the Earth might be better than a precisely-aimed but data-free arangement. The CG and dynamic behaviour of the Voyagers must be *very* well known by now (unless something has dropped off with the cold). If data is required, that's perhaps another story. Perhaps the lesson here is that future interstellar-precursor probes should be designed with graceful aging in mind, so that as their output of data reduces it still remains - just - there. Oh, and isn't it good to hear that there's going to be another attempt to reach Pioneer! Bob Shaw -------------------- Remember: Time Flies like the wind - but Fruit Flies like bananas!
|
|
|
Jan 5 2006, 02:22 PM
Post
#92
|
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2454 Joined: 8-July 05 From: NGC 5907 Member No.: 430 |
Can New Horizons participate in this experiment? Or was that another item left off the menu?
-------------------- "After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance. I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard, and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft." - Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853 |
|
|
Jan 5 2006, 02:43 PM
Post
#93
|
|
Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14432 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 5 2006, 02:22 PM) That's an unfair and unjustified jab at the mission. From http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects...e_20050720.html QUOTE (Plan Soc Website) The Pioneers are spin-stabilized spacecraft. The Voyagers are three-axis stabilized craft that fire thrusters to maintain their orientation in space or to slew around and point their instruments. Those thruster firings would introduce uncertainties in the tracking data that would overwhelm any effect as small as that occurring with Pioneer. This difference in the way the spacecraft are stabilized actually is one of the reasons the Pioneer data are so important and unique. Most current spacecraft are three-axis stabilized, not spin stabilized. It is unlikely another spin-stabilized craft will be sent across the solar system in the foreseeable future. Doug |
|
|
Jan 5 2006, 02:45 PM
Post
#94
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 30-January 05 Member No.: 162 |
If an objection to putting a Voyager into a slow spin is the likelihood that it would not be possible to stop the spin, do we care?
{well, of course we care, but you catch my drift} IIRC, some of the fields and particle experiments on Voyager work better when the craft is spinning, and the craft has spun for short periods for that very reason during planetary encounters. Maybe this isn't so unlikely? |
|
|
Jan 5 2006, 02:50 PM
Post
#95
|
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3648 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 5 2006, 03:43 PM) That's an unfair and unjustified jab at the mission. No - it cant, because it uses thrusters to manouver which would impart a small, but hard to calculate delta-V every time the spacecraft pitches, rolls and yaws. Same reason that Voyager is of no use either. Yes, but unlike the Voyagers, NH also has a spin mode which will be used during the long interplanetary cruise. So we might get long intervals when the s/c will be spin-stabilized and use it to get periods of precise tracking data. This will of course not be possible during the Jupiter encounter as well as the Pluto encounter phase, but at all other times (assuming thrusters will be off) it should be possible. Seven years or so between Jupiter flyby and start of Pluto approach phase is a pretty good sample, IMHO. -------------------- |
|
|
Jan 5 2006, 02:58 PM
Post
#96
|
|
Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14432 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
Damn good point actually UG - hadnt thought of that.
Then again, they're planning a yearly checkout iirc though - and that may involved pitching/rolling/yawing the spacecraft to look at astronomical calibration targets, which would trash the effect wouldnt it? QUOTE (pluto.jhuapl.edu) activities during the approximately 8-year cruise to Pluto include annual spacecraft and instrument checkouts, trajectory corrections, instrument calibrations and Pluto encounter rehearsals. Doug |
|
|
Jan 5 2006, 03:05 PM
Post
#97
|
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3648 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 5 2006, 03:58 PM) Then again, they're planning a yearly checkout iirc though - and that may involved pitching/rolling/yawing the spacecraft to look at astronomical calibration targets, which would trash the effect wouldnt it? I don't think it would trash the effect. At least much. They'll still have periods of inertial coast in between and still see if the modelled-out Doppler plots fit with the observed segments. A residual should still be detectable, though it won't take time do reach a big, nice and well-detectable magnitude before another "trashing" period. Then again, the s/c will probably have more stable RF oscillators so the balance could still hold. On the other side, I vaguely *seem* to remember reading somewhere that NH actually won't be a good tool to measure the acceleration, I forget why. Might have been something with the ultrastable oscillators thing. Might have been a pigment of my imagination... -------------------- |
|
|
Jan 5 2006, 05:19 PM
Post
#98
|
|
Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 29-July 05 From: Amsterdam, NL Member No.: 448 |
QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Feb 23 2005, 09:20 AM) Yes, we spin most of cruise, stopping only rarely. It costs fuel that we want to hoard for encounters and KBO DeltaV. And yes, our radio science team hopes to look for the Pioneer anaomaly. Contact Len Tyler or Ivan Linscott at Stanford. -Alan Alan addressed this back in Feb 05 in the "New Horizons, Pluto and the Kuiper belt" page. It seems like he plans to take full advantage of this opportunity. |
|
|
Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Jan 5 2006, 05:56 PM
Post
#99
|
Guests |
QUOTE (NMRguy @ Jan 5 2006, 05:19 PM) Alan addressed this back in Feb 05 in the "New Horizons, Pluto and the Kuiper belt" page. It seems like he plans to take full advantage of this opportunity. Below is an excerpt from The Planetary Society's website of Merek Chertkow's report on the 2005 Pioneer Anomaly Conference: QUOTE [Slava] Turyshev introduced the possibility of working with New Horizons, NASA’s Pluto-Kuiper belt mission scheduled to launch on January 11, 2006. The Pioneer anomaly investigation team was invited to come up with a thermal model of the New Horizons spacecraft. New Horizons was developed very rapidly on a very small budget. New Horizons was developed so quickly in order to catch the small launch period that is available to get a Jupiter fly by on the way to Pluto, which cuts flight time by a few years.
New Horizons is a great mission for us to look at; they have a spin-stabilized craft, the Doppler data will be very good (not as good as Cassini, but better than Pioneer), and it will be going out to Pluto (remember we found the Pioneer anomaly at the distance of Saturn)! As Turyshev put it, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Sounds great, right?! Unfortunately, the funding for New Horizons is already limited and we will have to bring our own funding, as well as figuring out the study itself. So, time will tell if this works out. |
|
|
Jan 5 2006, 06:47 PM
Post
#100
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 688 Joined: 20-April 05 From: Sweden Member No.: 273 |
|
|
|
Jan 8 2006, 05:02 PM
Post
#101
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 307 Joined: 16-March 05 Member No.: 198 |
QUOTE (Merek Chertkow's report) Merek Chertkow's report on the 2005 Pioneer Anomaly Conference That sounds just like the anecdote Don Wilhelms tells in "To a Rocky Moon"! When will NASA learn stop throwing its treasures out with the trash?
"Turyshev and John Anderson, also of JPL, with financial support from The Planetary Society were able to save this additional information from simply being thrown in the dumpster! I know what you must be thinking! I can’t believe it either!" |
|
|
Jan 9 2006, 07:07 AM
Post
#102
|
|
Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 22-December 05 Member No.: 616 |
Sorry, but what is this anomaly about?
( I'm a Newbie asking too many questions ) |
|
|
Jan 9 2006, 04:26 PM
Post
#103
|
|
Administrator Group: Admin Posts: 5172 Joined: 4-August 05 From: Pasadena, CA, USA, Earth Member No.: 454 |
QUOTE (Steffen @ Jan 8 2006, 11:07 PM) Google searches will answer lots of questions -- try here for starters. The Pioneer Anomaly --Emily -------------------- My website - My Patreon - @elakdawalla on Twitter - Please support unmannedspaceflight.com by donating here.
|
|
|
Jan 9 2006, 04:47 PM
Post
#104
|
|
Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 9-January 06 Member No.: 639 |
QUOTE (tfisher @ Jan 3 2006, 01:10 AM) Another cool tidbit: there is one last opportunity to attempt to contact Pioneer 10, coming up in this February/March. (They think that, just barely maybe there is enough power still now in the old RTGs...) The round-trip light-time is 25 hours, so the contact would proceed by sending out a signal from Goldstone, waiting a day while the earth spins around once and the radio waves make their merry way, and listening for a response again at Goldstone. Somehow that image amuses me :^) Cool! I hope they attempt it and it's successful. Later! J P |
|
|
Jan 9 2006, 04:50 PM
Post
#105
|
|
Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14432 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
I have an image in my head of driving around the M25 ( the london 'orbital' motorway ) and yelling at a service station "BIG MAC AND FRIES PLEASE"...then doing another lap of the motorway, only to have a burger land on my windscreen about 80 miles later once I was back in the same place
Doug |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th April 2024 - 08:36 PM |
RULES AND GUIDELINES Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting. IMAGE COPYRIGHT |
OPINIONS AND MODERATION Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators. |
SUPPORT THE FORUM Unmannedspaceflight.com is funded by the Planetary Society. Please consider supporting our work and many other projects by donating to the Society or becoming a member. |