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#1
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 24-March 04 From: Finland Member No.: 63 ![]() |
Heatshield AHOY!
:-) -------------------- Antti Kuosmanen
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#2
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 710 Joined: 28-September 04 Member No.: 99 ![]() |
What a mess!
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#3
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
Wow - lots of chunks
![]() I think somebody flushed the toilet on Opportunity - we're getting a LOT of pancam imagery from Sol 114. Imagery that was taken in MAY!!! I guess being out of the crater really opens up the UHF passes for a full horizon to horizon pass every time - 15 minutes of 256kbits (190Mbits+ ) - instead of just the top 120 degrees or so when you're in a crater ![]() Doug |
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#4
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From the long range images of it - it didnt seem to "look" too badly damaged, now were seeing it up close it looks much worse lol. And that must have been a looooooooong drive on sol 324.
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#5
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
![]() There you go ladies ![]() I've labelled the big bits so we can sing from the same song sheet. I'd suspect that they'd like to look at A for the science of the imapct, and almost certainly E because it'll be a nice piece of heatsheild detached from the danger zone near C and D I think C/D will be avoided like the plague - too much chance for danger - but when we get the R navcam frame for the middle of that mosaic - I think we'll see that B is 5 - 10m further away than C/D. If they're happy to look at B -then I think we'll see A - B - then possibly E - or just leave after B. But - like the Parachute and backshell - C/D has too much potential to hurt the rover - it's got to be 2m tall For scale - from A to E is about 38 metres - and Eagle Crater was about the size of the gap between B and E Doug |
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#6
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#7
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Could the object you labeled C in your picture actually be a rock?
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#8
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 710 Joined: 28-September 04 Member No.: 99 ![]() |
This is one mangled piece of metal. When I look at a picture of the original heatshield I can't say that I recognize any piece we see here...
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#9
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 578 Joined: 5-November 04 From: Denmark Member No.: 107 ![]() |
Now where did that BIG trench go
![]() How can it be bended and folded like that without digging a deeper hole in the ground? Did it land on a rock on the ground perhaps? -------------------- "I want to make as many people as possible feel like they are part of this adventure. We are going to give everybody a sense of what exploring the surface of another world is really like"
- Steven Squyres |
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#10
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Here's the pancam image of the hole :
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...75P2357L7M1.JPG It's probably deeper than it looks, we're not close enough to get a look at it |
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#11
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 578 Joined: 5-November 04 From: Denmark Member No.: 107 ![]() |
So it jumped out of the impact hole and did not make a "genesis" impact
![]() Well then the hole is free to study, great ![]() -------------------- "I want to make as many people as possible feel like they are part of this adventure. We are going to give everybody a sense of what exploring the surface of another world is really like"
- Steven Squyres |
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#12
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
When I was refering to C and D - I meant the two parts of that central lump which pancam has resolved into being one lump. I'm shifting the naming of D to be whatever piece of heatsheilf is behind C - and keeping it upright.
That piece way out at E really is a bit of heatsheilf. Colour images show that - ![]() Apart from, you know, LOADS of bits of heatshielf - we can see three springs that pushed the heatsheild away from the backshell as well. There's three more out there somewhere ![]() BIG picture ![]() In there is a tiny pic of one of those brackets that held the springs pre launch Doug |
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#13
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
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#14
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
It'd make a LOT of sense to approach that rock - it's a nice size for IDD work.
Park there - and IDD the rock whilst Pancaming the heatshield ![]() Doug |
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#15
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 24-March 04 From: Finland Member No.: 63 ![]() |
These rocks seem to attract Crap from Outer Space.
As you all remember, Oppy just about hit a similar rock just before bouncing into the Eagle crater. And we haven't seen one like it for hundreds of metres. -------------------- Antti Kuosmanen
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#16
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
![]() I think it might be two springs over by B - so that's four - and possilbly one just to the left of impact crater A Doug |
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#17
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3431 Joined: 11-August 04 From: USA Member No.: 98 ![]() |
QUOTE (akuo @ Dec 22 2004, 12:17 PM) As you all remember, Oppy just about hit a similar rock just before bouncing into the Eagle crater. And we haven't seen one like it for hundreds of metres. Maybe the rocks are magenetic? ![]() This is a far out idea, but what if the rock was actually ejected from the impact site. There don't seem to be any marks in the sand that would indicate that, but maybe they've been covered up in the months it took Oppy to get out here. Just a thought. |
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#18
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2262 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Melbourne - Oz Member No.: 16 ![]() |
Why am I reminded of Beagle 2 when I look at these pictures?!!
James -------------------- |
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#19
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
QUOTE (mhoward @ Dec 22 2004, 01:46 PM) QUOTE (akuo @ Dec 22 2004, 12:17 PM) As you all remember, Oppy just about hit a similar rock just before bouncing into the Eagle crater. And we haven't seen one like it for hundreds of metres. Maybe the rocks are magenetic? ![]() This is a far out idea, but what if the rock was actually ejected from the impact site. There don't seem to be any marks in the sand that would indicate that, but maybe they've been covered up in the months it took Oppy to get out here. Just a thought. No - I think that rock lived there -it's got a slight upwind highlight to the soil around it which is a slow forming feature I'd imagine. there are other bits and peices ejected out from around there- but I dont think that's one. And HELL yeah - I want to see what B2 looks like ![]() Doug |
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#20
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 2-May 04 From: Litchfield Park, Arizona (Phoenix area) Member No.: 71 ![]() |
Great picture Doug. My guess, based on how bent up this heatshield is, is that the thing came down sideways so there might be quite a deep hole it made there.
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#21
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![]() Junior Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 10-March 04 Member No.: 54 ![]() |
Great pics! Christmas is early this year!
![]() Tom |
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#22
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
'technically' - I've got what I asked for for my Birthday - a colour mosaic of the heatshield - but I was expecting more
![]() ![]() Doug |
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#23
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1276 Joined: 25-November 04 Member No.: 114 ![]() |
Now I know what the Mars Polar Lander looks like.
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#24
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 2-May 04 From: Litchfield Park, Arizona (Phoenix area) Member No.: 71 ![]() |
Happy birthday to Doug.......
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#25
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 242 Joined: 17-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 34 ![]() |
That image of the heat shield is another candidate for your book, Doug. It's like an image from star Wars, only for real!
![]() I hope your birhday wishes come true. Have a good one. |
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#26
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![]() Junior Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 10-March 04 Member No.: 54 ![]() |
QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 22 2004, 06:44 PM) 'technically' - I've got what I asked for for my Birthday - a colour mosaic of the heatshield - but I was expecting more ![]() ![]() It's still time! ![]() I turn 36 in January, and I'm hoping Huygens will make my day! ![]() Last year I was hoping for a good christmas present vom Beagle-2 (never arrived, you know ![]() ![]() Tom |
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#27
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 2-May 04 From: Litchfield Park, Arizona (Phoenix area) Member No.: 71 ![]() |
Great 3d heatshield pic from Marsunearthed.com:
3D Heatshield Picture |
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#28
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
QUOTE (azstrummer @ Dec 22 2004, 10:16 PM) Great 3d heatshield pic from Marsunearthed.com: 3D Heatshield Picture Hmm - those ones done without any TLC just dont work for me at all. I dont get much perception if any with that. ..some time passes... THAT'S better ![]() ![]() Doug |
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#29
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Junior Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 22-December 04 Member No.: 128 ![]() |
Your work is superb. Thank you Doug.
It would be interesting to compare the amount of accumulated dust to that on the rovers. Too bad it looks wobbly and is a hazard. |
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#30
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2228 Joined: 1-December 04 From: Marble Falls, Texas, USA Member No.: 116 ![]() |
Outstanding images...They really allow us to better appreciate the scene.
There's one thing I don't understand from an earlier comment, though. Why would it be so dangerous to closely approach the large piece of the shield? It would seem that they took much greater risks with Opportunity while inside Endurance crater. I would have thought they'd want to get close enough to at least take some MIs of the shield's surface. -------------------- ...Tom
I'm not a Space Fan, I'm a Space Exploration Enthusiast. |
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#31
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 2-May 04 From: Litchfield Park, Arizona (Phoenix area) Member No.: 71 ![]() |
Boy, do I agree with you. They seem to have really precise control over positioning of the rovers except on big slopes and in deep sand. They can get as close as they want. It's not like the thing is going to attack them. Now the Martian with the raygun behind it........
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#32
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1281 Joined: 18-December 04 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 124 ![]() |
Awesome color mosaic - and Happy Birthday!
![]() ![]() ![]() -------------------- Lyford Rome
"Zis is not nuts, zis is super-nuts!" Mathematician Richard Courant on viewing an Orion test |
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#33
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2228 Joined: 1-December 04 From: Marble Falls, Texas, USA Member No.: 116 ![]() |
QUOTE (azstrummer @ Dec 22 2004, 10:31 AM) ...based on how bent up this heatshield is...the thing came down sideways so there might be quite a deep hole it made there. It really does look as if it impacted sideways, but the fact that it is so bent up suggests it's compressive strength on impact was less than the compressive strength of the surface it encountered. If this area is anything like what Opportunity has seen elsewhere on the plains, the soil is only a few centimeters thick, at the most. Under the soil is bedrock. I think the weaker heat shield deformed when it landed, absorbing much of the energy, and creating a crater no more than 10-30 cm deep. This is going to be a pretty interesting site to investigate. -------------------- ...Tom
I'm not a Space Fan, I'm a Space Exploration Enthusiast. |
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#34
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![]() Junior Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 10-March 04 Member No.: 54 ![]() |
Happy Birthday, Doug!
![]() Tom |
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#35
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![]() The Poet Dude ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 5551 Joined: 15-March 04 From: Kendal, Cumbria, UK Member No.: 60 ![]() |
Happy Birthday Doug!
![]() In honour of all your outstanding work, I vote we - unofficially! - christen the crater made by the impacting heatshield "Doug's Birthday Crater". ![]() Anyone second that? Stu -------------------- |
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#36
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 710 Joined: 28-September 04 Member No.: 99 ![]() |
QUOTE (Stu @ Dec 23 2004, 08:07 AM) In honour of all your outstanding work, I vote we - unofficially! - christen the crater made by the impacting heatshield "Doug's Birthday Crater". ![]() How about 'Doug's Dig' for that trench? Happy Birthday. ![]() |
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#37
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
My point was - you dont want to go up to it when that mylar might flap around and hit the PMA. Worse -touch it with the IDD and it falls over. It could happen. Quite how a 40kg off piece of heatsheild has ended up on it's end is anyones guess - and it looks quite precarious to me. Especially when there' a nice big bit sat flat on the ground that can do no harm to anyone
![]() Thanks for the Birthday wishes chaps ![]() Doug (PS - How about 'Dougs Ditch' ? ) |
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#38
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 23-October 04 From: Greensboro, NC USA Member No.: 103 ![]() |
Since two of the three craters that Oppy has studied so far (Eagle, Fram, Endurance) began with E, why not simply and elegantly name this crater "Ellison"?
-------------------- Jonathan Ward
Manning the LCC at http://www.apollolaunchcontrol.com |
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#39
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![]() The Poet Dude ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 5551 Joined: 15-March 04 From: Kendal, Cumbria, UK Member No.: 60 ![]() |
QUOTE (ilbasso @ Dec 23 2004, 07:17 PM) why not simply and elegantly name this crater "Ellison"? ...because then people over here in the UK will think it was named after the ex-Brookside "actress", Jennifer Ellison, who couldn't act her way out of a crisp packet, and is best known for rather, er, revealing photo-shoots in lads mags... ![]() Think we're better off with the word "Doug" in the title. -------------------- |
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#40
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![]() The Insider ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 73 ![]() |
HAVE A WONDERFUL BIRTHDAY, DOUG!!!
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#41
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 710 Joined: 28-September 04 Member No.: 99 ![]() |
What happened here? Bouncing airbags, bouncing heatshields?
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#42
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 710 Joined: 28-September 04 Member No.: 99 ![]() |
The heatshield from a different perspective:
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#43
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 24-March 04 From: Finland Member No.: 63 ![]() |
One more navcam picture.
Not much of a hole at all. Oppy could dig something like that with its wheels. -------------------- Antti Kuosmanen
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#44
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
Ahh - see, there's an 'Ellison' Crater on the moon. (really - it's just around the far side - google for it
![]() Doug |
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#45
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![]() The Insider ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 73 ![]() |
I think we're not seeing much of the hole because of the bedrock so close to the surface. There's probably just a few inches of soil and blueberries, that's pretty much it. The heatshield was fairly light, and when it hit the ground looks like the aluminum foil insert broke away from the rest... Sort of like tossing a pie plate to a concrete covered by a thin layer of sand...
That's a bit different from the Genesis crash, which landed into a fairly soft soil (mud). |
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#46
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
Happy birthday to me...
![]() Happy birthday, to me... ![]() Happy birthday dear meeeeeee... ![]() Happy birthday to me ![]() ![]() ![]() I got what I wanted ![]() Doug |
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#47
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Central California Member No.: 45 ![]() |
Happy birthday Doug, didn't realize you were such a pup (26? ain't nothin'...
![]() I was trying to get the 3d's I did up, but from work I don't have any ftp space to access, damn Yahoo pictures is mostly useless... I disagree with Akuo's assessment that Oppy could dig something similar with its wheels...in the 3d images the crater looks a bit deeper than the wheels. I hope we get a lot of close up shots of the crater. Anyway, I've got a link to my 3d images, though they aren't much different than the ones Doug posted so you're ok if you pass... Eric's version of the 3d images of the heatshield Eric P / MizarKey -------------------- Eric P / MizarKey
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#48
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Hope you had a nice Birthday Doug
![]() I like this image from the navcam...the small dunes look like snakes heading towards the rim of Endurance. |
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#49
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1281 Joined: 18-December 04 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 124 ![]() |
QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 23 2004, 11:39 PM) Doesnt take much to make this 26 year old happy ;P Just $850M of rover and a couple of monkeys. At least it isn't 850 million dollars worth of monkeys! Happy Birthday and thanks for all the great pics on this board. ![]() -------------------- Lyford Rome
"Zis is not nuts, zis is super-nuts!" Mathematician Richard Courant on viewing an Orion test |
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#50
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It's been very clear from the start of MER-B's explorations on Meridiani Plain that the plain is a very thin layer of basalt sand mixed with Blueberries, spread over a flat sheet of underlying sedimentary bedrock. What's happening -- as Ray Arvidson predicted in advance from MGS' orbital observations -- is that the sand has blown in from other places and is slowly eroding away the rock layer from the top down, powderizing the soft matrix rock and leaving a residue of Blueberries mixed with the immigrant sand. But of course once the thickness of the sand layer builds up beyond a certain point it stops the erosion process until some of the built-up sand blows back out of Meridiani and the erosion resumes -- so the overlying sand/Blueberry layer will ALWAYS be very thin. (I wonder how many Blueberries are mixed with the sand that's blown all the way through Meridiani and out the downwind side?)
That circular impact mark makes it clear that the heat shield came down flat on the surface and then bounced -- whereas the Genesis capsule, which was wobbling greatly during its fall, apparently came down on one edge. |
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#51
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![]() The Poet Dude ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 5551 Joined: 15-March 04 From: Kendal, Cumbria, UK Member No.: 60 ![]() |
QUOTE (Sunspot @ Dec 24 2004, 12:10 AM) I like this image from the navcam...the small dunes look like snakes heading towards the rim of Endurance. Finally the truth is out - Oppy landed on Arrakis. Those aren't small dunes, they're sandworms...! ![]() -------------------- |
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#52
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 24 2004, 01:40 AM) That circular impact mark makes it clear that the heat shield came down flat on the surface and then bounced -- whereas the Genesis capsule, which was wobbling greatly during its fall, apparently came down on one edge. Hands up if you've gone to the top of your stairs and taken the heatshielf from the MPF Hotwheels pack and dropped it to see if it always lands the same way ![]() Warning. Castor Sugar+Drinking Chocolat experimentation may follow ![]() Doug |
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#53
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
![]() I assume this will be part of a 3 x 2 mosaic or something like that within the next 24 hrs or so. I'm very much AFK from tomorrow thru to probably Dec 31st - so unless the rest of that mosaic comes down tonight - then it'll have to wait ![]() Doug |
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#54
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Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1276 Joined: 25-November 04 Member No.: 114 ![]() |
In what image does it show Opps heading after the heat sheild observations?
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#55
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
This sort of direction
Due south basically Doug |
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Guest_BruceMoomaw_* |
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#56
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Latest shot of the heatshield is at http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...A3P2359L7M1.JPG . The sun's reflection off the interior is so bright that it's saturated a large part of the photo; but one can clearly see little shattered bits of the heatshield scattered around the landing area.
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#57
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
I wonder what one of those springs would fetch on Ebay
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#58
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![]() The Insider ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 73 ![]() |
QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 24 2004, 10:07 AM) I wonder what one of those springs would fetch on Ebay ![]() Doug You mean *after* someone brings them back from Mars? ![]() ![]() |
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#59
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
'Buyer Collects'
![]() Actually - didnt the RSA sell one of its lunakhod rovers for a few thousand $'s - with the 'Buyer Collects' proviso? Doug |
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#60
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![]() The Insider ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 73 ![]() |
In that case the heck with the spring, go with the whole rover
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#61
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Founder ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 ![]() |
HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!
![]() Now sod off and eat Turkey ![]() Doug |
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#62
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3234 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 ![]() |
Turkey not done yet :mad: But look at all that junk strewn around. I remember when there were some cranks thinking they were seeing machine parts and springs in the Spirit images and well, there are some real springs
![]() -------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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#63
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I'm no more reading this forum since several months... <:-)
Your images are very interesting! Maybe Opportunity took enough pictures so somebody can produce 2 color photos of the heatshield taken from close angles, so I could combine them in a 3d-color-anaglyph? It would be cool! ![]() I also would like to build a little animation of the heatshield: are there enough different angles pictures to allow this? Can you give the links, or just link the thumbnails? BTW, what is the "Genesis" you are talking about? |
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#64
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"Genesis" ist the poor little solar wind sample return spacecraft that crashed into the Utah desert in September 2004. BTW, is there any news on the sample quality yet?
Analyst |
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#65
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 154 Joined: 8-June 04 Member No.: 80 ![]() |
QUOTE BTW, is there any news on the sample quality yet? I heard some samples were salvagable, but I haven't heard about any results from them. |
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Guest_BruceMoomaw_* |
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#66
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Opinions seem to vary on whether the Genesis samples are scientifically retrievable. The team itself is insisting that many of the collectors for oxygen and nitrogen isotopes in the solar wind -- the top two science goals of the mission, by far -- are indeed retrievable, and that the same may be true of many of the lesser goals (such as noble gas analysis). Others -- such as SpaceDaily's professional curmudgeon Jeffrey Bell -- say that, since the solar wind atoms are embedded only 1/50 of a micron deep in the collector plates (that's less than 1 millionth of an inch) and the latter were exposed to atmosphere, humidity and dust, no scientist in his right mind will trust the results. However, I've talked personally with Donald Brownlee -- the PI for the Stardust comet-dust retrieval mission -- and he thinks that it may very well be possible to adequately clean the top surfaces of the collector plates of contamination without removing such shallowly embedded solar wind atoms; as he points out, anyone who washes a glass window with a non-abrasive substance routinely does just that. So, until I learn more, I reserve judgment.
Brownless, by the way, also says that an examination of the construction records for the Stardust capsule make it pretty certain that the upside-down parachute switch error in the Genesis capsule has not been repeated for the Stardust capsule -- but he also says that, since the dust grains in Stardust are embedded 1 to several cm deep in a sheet of relatively nonbrittle aerogel, they are more likely to come through a crash in scientifically acceptable shape, unless the capsule crashes onto the salt flats after the latter have been recently rained on. However, finding and retrieving the capsule quickly would be vital -- and the Stardust capsule will land at night. |
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#67
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![]() Interplanetary Dumpster Diver ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 4404 Joined: 17-February 04 From: Powell, TN Member No.: 33 ![]() |
This is all good to hear. After reading his recent article, my suggestion to Mr. Bell is that he seek therapy, as he seems generally angry at the world. However, his concerns are often not born out by more reputable scientists. My suggestion is that he sometimes look on the bright side of things, or he find some private place to go and be really, really sad where he can't bother anyone else.
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#68
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 2262 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Melbourne - Oz Member No.: 16 ![]() |
That picture is a great Christmas present Doug. Thanks, how did you know what I wanted!
![]() James -------------------- |
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#69
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In my own experience, Bell is right about 80-90% of the time. ANYONE who has to deal habitually with NASA naturally turns into a cynic (including Reagan's science advisor George Keyworth, who called it "the only governmental agency which lies not just sometimes but most of the time"). As for Genesis, we have yet to see who's really correct.
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#70
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Latest shots fo the heatshield at http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...cam/2004-12-27/ . Is that white sheet which overlays the biggest fragment the actual heat-resistant cloth layer? If so, it came through Martian entry pristine-looking, with no visible sign of charring.
Also some nice closeups of the actual impact crater, such as http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...A3P2360L4M1.JPG -- confirming again that the shield, despite coming down fast enough to shatter itself, barely punched into the solid rock layer covered by just a few cm of sand -- and some more of the second-largest shield fragment, such as http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...A3P2360L7M1.JPG . |
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Do you think it would be safe enough to drive the rover into the "crater"? Perhaps they could perform a trenching operation inside the impacted area to see how far down the bedrock is.
Looking at the heatshield in it's current state.....I think it may literally be "inside out"... the shiny layer we see was part of an insulating layer on the inside of the heatshield. You can just make out a kind of rough textured surface on the other side which I think might be the abaltive material on the front of the heatshield. It's a little easier to see in this image: |
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#72
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 23-October 04 From: Greensboro, NC USA Member No.: 103 ![]() |
Anybody have a guess at the heatshield's approximate speed when it impacted?
Going back through the timeline, it looks like the heatshield separates from the backshell at somewhere between 25,000 and 30,000 feet in alitutde, 20 seconds after chute deployment (the chute deploys at 30,000 feet and 1,000 mph). I wonder what the terminal velocity is for such an object...relatively flat and light - how much would wind resistance have slowed it down even though there is less air than on earth, but counteracted somewhat by lower gravity? Genesis came in pretty hot and didn't even have the benefit of a parachute, but it impacted at "only" 200 mph. I agree that it looks like the big piece is turned inside-out. I would bet that the thermal blankets go on the inside. The schematic on the MER website also indicates that there is a "radar absorber" in the heatshield - is that part of the blanket's function? ![]() Piece "B" looks like it has some charred surfaces readily visible. -------------------- Jonathan Ward
Manning the LCC at http://www.apollolaunchcontrol.com |
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Yes, I have since been taken to the woodshed by another member of my Planetary Science webgroup (who shall remain nameless) regarding my misinterpretation of what I was looking at:
"The 'white' sheet is the base layer of a series of sheets of material, capped by a reflective mylar layer - the innermost part of a multi-layer thermal protection system. This consists of a structural frame, an outside ablative layer of what Gary Allen advises is ground-up cork and resin binder, and an inner thermal blanket to stop residual heat getting through to the rover. "What is perhaps confusing you is that the piece of the wreckage that is standing up on its side has been almost flipped inside out. " http://www.lyle.org/~markoff/processed/1P1...78L234567M1.JPG "The dark 'knobbly' material is the heated and partly ablated TPS. The broken edge at the left shows the paler-brown surface that has been altered by re-entry heat compared to the thicker dark unaltered material. You can see parts of the mylar layer, and the underlying white blanket that has been everted over it." Well, that's what I get for not actually looking up the structure of the heat shield -- I was thinking vaguely of the flexible entry-thermal blankets that cover those parts of the Shuttle exposed to minimum heating. |
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#74
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Has the rover rolled right up to one of the heat shield fragments? I find it impossible to interpret the little thingie at the top of this Forward Hazcam image any other way: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...FRR2761R0M1.JPG .
Also, what's with the spot on the left front wheel where some of the aluminum tread is missing? I know that there was one patch on each wheel where it was deliberately omittted -- but this missing patch seems irregularly bordered, and there's what looks like a crack leading away from one of its edges. |
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#75
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3431 Joined: 11-August 04 From: USA Member No.: 98 ![]() |
QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 28 2004, 01:40 AM) Has the rover rolled right up to one of the heat shield fragments? I find it impossible to interpret the little thingie at the top of this Forward Hazcam image any other way: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...FRR2761R0M1.JPG . The image in question is actually from Sol 54, or thereabouts; you're looking at the egress ramp on the lander and part of an airbag. I know, it threw me for a minute, too! I guess Oppy is clearing out its memory banks for some reason. |
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#76
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The tread mark track at the 11 o'clock position reveals they may have gone a little too close to the wreckage. It gives the appearance that at least one side became slightly elevated into the air.
There is a small amount of dirt in a pile at the base of the debris as if the wreckages were pushed further into the ground. I wonder if this is from a possible collision with the rover or if was always present? I don't see anything wrong with the wheel. I hope they re-evaluate the risk vs. reward at the site. There are a number of sharp elevated angles which do not resemble type of rock. Dragging a wheel is one thing but dragging a piece of debris around would be a terrible way for this rover to go out. In re: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...FRR2761R0M1.JPG |
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#77
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![]() The Insider ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 73 ![]() |
QUOTE (Mode5 @ Dec 27 2004, 07:39 PM) The tread mark track at the 11 o'clock position reveals they may have gone a little too close to the wreckage. It gives the appearance that at least one side became slightly elevated into the air. This image was made in Eagle crater next to the lander platform, something like 9 months ago. It doesn't show any 'wreckage' of any kind. Also, the wheel tread has a section where it was attached to the landing platform. That section is the one visible on the left front wheel in that image. I don't think any of the heatshield debris poses any danger to the rover, unless it actually collides with a large piece head-on... Nevertheless I doubt they will attempt to drive the rover over the large pieces of course ![]() They are planning to do some IDD work with the soil that was disturbed by the heatshield crash. Also, they may do some work with the rock found nearby that resembles the 'Bounce Rock' they found close to Eagle crater. |
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#78
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![]() The Insider ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 73 ![]() |
Also, this image shows the assembly -- it does look like it has turned inside out. Notice the shiny foil-like material on the inside.
What most likely happened was that the shield came down nose first, the nose hit the ground and edges came down some milliseconds later. The nose shot back up, tearning the saucer apart and turning it inside out, and a sector broke away and landed nearby. And as a result there is a flat crater where it did a nice belly-flop. ![]() |
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#79
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3431 Joined: 11-August 04 From: USA Member No.: 98 ![]() |
QUOTE (Pando @ Dec 28 2004, 03:09 AM) This image was made in Eagle crater next to the lander platform, something like 9 months ago. It doesn't show any 'wreckage' of any kind. And not to beat this subject to death, but in case anyone was wondering, the mark on the ground is the start of a trench that Oppy dug, on purpose. Again, months ago. |
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#80
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Oog. That same guy on the Planetary Sciences website (curse him!) has pointed out that the date of that Hazcam photo is incorporated into its ID number -- and that it is indeed one of the rover's earliest photos, disgorged from the back recesses of its memory at this late date. (Which makes one wonder how much else is still stuffed back there.) The latest Navcam shots, however, do confirm that the rover is gradually making its way closer.
(It's also a lot easier to understand how the heat shield could have turned itself inside-out on impact when you consider how shallow a cone it actually is.) |
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#81
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No time to stop.............. they've driven past the heatshield.
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...AJP0645L0M1.JPG ...fairly close to the other fragment now: http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...AJP0645R0M1.JPG |
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#82
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3431 Joined: 11-August 04 From: USA Member No.: 98 ![]() |
I love that you can see Endurance Crater in the background, and even see the rover's tracks all the way to the horizon. Nice.
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#83
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 23-October 04 From: Greensboro, NC USA Member No.: 103 ![]() |
Looking at the new view of the main shield fragment, I can see why they are passing it by. I would bet that those blankets could blow around in the wind. Not something you'd want to get your antennas and camera masts stuck in!
-------------------- Jonathan Ward
Manning the LCC at http://www.apollolaunchcontrol.com |
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#84
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 578 Joined: 5-November 04 From: Denmark Member No.: 107 ![]() |
Can't see if the fragment has the protective side of the shield upwards.
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportuni...AJP0645R0M1.JPG If it has, then they most likely will do some MI work on it -------------------- "I want to make as many people as possible feel like they are part of this adventure. We are going to give everybody a sense of what exploring the surface of another world is really like"
- Steven Squyres |
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#85
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 23-October 04 From: Greensboro, NC USA Member No.: 103 ![]() |
Looks to me like this piece is twisted. The fragment toward the top/left of the frame looks charred and is convex. The fragment on the right looks concave and appears to have some of the insulating blanket still attached -- the blanket also appears to be caught on/wrapped around the piece that runs across the bottom of the picture - which I think is a small section of the large ring that circles the heatshield and attaches it to the upper part of the aeroshell.
-------------------- Jonathan Ward
Manning the LCC at http://www.apollolaunchcontrol.com |
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#86
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![]() The Insider ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 73 ![]() |
QUOTE I would bet that those blankets could blow around in the wind. Not something you'd want to get your antennas and camera masts stuck in! The material is fairly stiff, I doubt there is anything to blow around in the wind, especially in the thin Martian atmosphere. A parachute would be a different story of course, but the main reason they're driving around the big fragment is that the smaller fragment's scorched outer layer is easily accessible for IDD work. They of course are also imaging the big fragment in different angles. |
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#87
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Junior Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 22-December 04 Member No.: 128 ![]() |
Eagle Crater! Egads, thanks for the correction Pando.
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#88
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 578 Joined: 5-November 04 From: Denmark Member No.: 107 ![]() |
Looks like they are approaching the fragment
![]() -------------------- "I want to make as many people as possible feel like they are part of this adventure. We are going to give everybody a sense of what exploring the surface of another world is really like"
- Steven Squyres |
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#89
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Looks like burnt toast ..... kind of crispy.
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#90
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3431 Joined: 11-August 04 From: USA Member No.: 98 ![]() |
In 3D:
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#91
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3431 Joined: 11-August 04 From: USA Member No.: 98 ![]() |
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#92
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Rover Driver ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1015 Joined: 4-March 04 Member No.: 47 ![]() |
belated happy birthday doug!
![]() by the way: new route map available: http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/04...heatshield.html |
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#93
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3431 Joined: 11-August 04 From: USA Member No.: 98 ![]() |
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#94
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The ablative material looks like scorched carpet
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#95
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![]() The Insider ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 73 ![]() |
Latest: There are indications that there is a possible dust storm developing. The power levels have dropped quite dramatically at around Sol 330 for Opportunity and is somewhat worrisome. At Gusev things are trending similarly although it's a Sol or so later. This is getting interesting as it may even mean a global dust storm.
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 578 Joined: 5-November 04 From: Denmark Member No.: 107 ![]() |
QUOTE (Pando @ Dec 29 2004, 07:28 PM) Latest: There are indications that there is a possible dust storm developing. The power levels have dropped quite dramatically at around Sol 330 for Opportunity and is somewhat worrisome. At Gusev things are trending similarly although it's a Sol or so later. This is getting interesting as it may even mean a global dust storm. Uh ohhh ![]() ![]() How much are the drop in power? -------------------- "I want to make as many people as possible feel like they are part of this adventure. We are going to give everybody a sense of what exploring the surface of another world is really like"
- Steven Squyres |
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#97
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 23-October 04 From: Greensboro, NC USA Member No.: 103 ![]() |
Interesting mosaic of the heatshield impact crater on the JPL MER site (excerpted below). It certainly looks as though the heatshield hit almost completely flat. I did some very rough calculations on the terminal velocity of the heatshield in Mars' atmosphere (assuming a rough surface area of 10.5 m^2 and a mass of 78 kg)...it looks like the terminal velocity at Mars surface for such an object would be on the order of 120 mph. Didn't make much of a dent, did it? -- but the energy sure bent the hell out of the heatshield!!
![]() -------------------- Jonathan Ward
Manning the LCC at http://www.apollolaunchcontrol.com |
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It's hardly surprising that it came down upright -- it was, after all, shaped so that the airflow itself would stabilize the lander during entry. As for its barely penetrating the surface: I repeat that this entire plain, for hundreds of km, is apparently just a layer of basalt sand a few cm thick covering a flat surface of soft rock that's being gradually eroded away by the sand blowing across it.
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#99
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![]() Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 578 Joined: 5-November 04 From: Denmark Member No.: 107 ![]() |
Up close and personal
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- Steven Squyres |
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#100
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![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderator Posts: 3431 Joined: 11-August 04 From: USA Member No.: 98 ![]() |
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