New Horizons at Europa |
New Horizons at Europa |
Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Feb 27 2007, 09:31 PM
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#1
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Time to start a thread about a far more interesting jovian moon
Passing probe to study 'crop circles' on Europa 17:38 27 February 2007 NewScientist.com news service Kelly Young |
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Feb 28 2007, 12:58 PM
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#2
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3648 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
As mentioned in the general NH at Jupiter thread, the first Europa image is down.
http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/gallery/missionPho...s/022807_2.html -------------------- |
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Feb 28 2007, 04:10 PM
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Thanks, Gordan. Now we're getting somewhere!
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Feb 28 2007, 09:01 PM
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IMG to PNG GOD Group: Moderator Posts: 2254 Joined: 19-February 04 From: Near fire and ice Member No.: 38 |
As mentioned in the general NH at Jupiter thread, the first Europa image is down. http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/gallery/missionPho...s/022807_2.html And this is the viewing geometry: I'm a bit frustrated that these are probably the best images we'll be seeing of the Galileans until the 2020s or later (except possibly for occasional images from huge future Earth-based telescopes). Having seen Cassini at Saturn as compared to Galileo at Jupiter makes me wish there was a 'Galileo 2' or something comparable. |
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Feb 28 2007, 09:29 PM
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#5
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Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 22-March 06 Member No.: 722 |
And this is the viewing geometry: I'm a bit frustrated that these are probably the best images we'll be seeing of the Galileans until the 2020s or later (except possibly for occasional images from huge future Earth-based telescopes). Having seen Cassini at Saturn as compared to Galileo at Jupiter makes me wish there was a 'Galileo 2' or something comparable. No guff. I had the same kind of wistful thought when I saw that Europa image--the last close-up of my favorite satellite for a long time... -------------------- Mayor: Er, Master Betty, what is the Evil Council's plan?
Master Betty: Nyah. Haha. It is EVIL, it is so EVIL. It is a bad, bad plan, which will hurt many... people... who are good. I think it's great that it's so bad. -Kung Pow: Enter the Fist |
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Guest_AlexBlackwell_* |
Feb 28 2007, 09:52 PM
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#6
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I'm a bit frustrated that these are probably the best images we'll be seeing of the Galileans until the 2020s or later (except possibly for occasional images from huge future Earth-based telescopes). Probably. However, crude as they might be, I wonder if JunoCam or the imagers on NASA's proposed Solar Probe, which is baselined for a 2015 Jupiter gravity assist, might return something useful. |
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Feb 28 2007, 10:28 PM
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 813 Joined: 8-February 04 From: Arabia Terra Member No.: 12 |
Probably. However, crude as they might be, I wonder if JunoCam or the imagers on NASA's proposed Solar Probe, which is baselined for a 2015 Jupiter gravity assist, might return something useful. It's a longshot but maybe one of the emerging planetary spacecraft nations (India or China) will choose the Jupiter system as a target for a flagship. If not, perhaps Russia's newly reborn planetary program will take on a mission that goes further than Mars orbit. |
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Feb 28 2007, 10:51 PM
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#8
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2530 Joined: 20-April 05 Member No.: 321 |
And this is the viewing geometry: Thanks! This is highly complementary with the geometry Voyager 1 had of Europa, eg: http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA00016 Maybe an aspiring astrocartographer could normalize the NH image's color to the Voyager one and then make a cylindrical map from this pair. Oh, to have free time! |
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Mar 1 2007, 04:46 PM
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#9
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14434 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
Several "Oh woe is me" posts in this thread about how we'll all be dead before anything ever happens in space ever again have been deleted. Seriously guys, can you not keep anything on topic?
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Mar 1 2007, 05:46 PM
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#10
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2530 Joined: 20-April 05 Member No.: 321 |
The NH snap of Europa has similar geometry to the best full-disk image taken by Galileo:
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA00502 Most features visible in the NH image are visible here. |
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Mar 3 2007, 03:55 AM
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 121 Joined: 26-September 05 From: Philadelphia Member No.: 507 |
i know there is much more to come when NH turns to face us, but are we expecting to learn anything from the europa images or will it largely be just a few new views in B&W? the images of Io so far seem pretty distant, and that works for Io as it is so active and plumes can be seen from quite a distance. but what might we discover at europa from such a quick pass?
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Mar 3 2007, 04:35 AM
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#12
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8785 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
Hmm...Actually, that's a very good question, MG.
Do we obtain any good silhouette views of Europa with low illumination angles at all from NH for a plume search? If there are any, I'm sure they'll be several orders of magnitude less spectacular than Io (or Enceladus, for that matter)...still definitely worth a look, though, if we can get it, particularly because NH is uniquely equipped to observe dim objects.... -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Mar 3 2007, 04:37 AM
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#13
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1592 Joined: 14-October 05 From: Vermont Member No.: 530 |
but what might we discover at europa from such a quick pass? See slides 17-20 of the presentation here: http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~spencer/nhjupitersupport/ Atmosphere and surface composition... |
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Mar 3 2007, 01:42 PM
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 121 Joined: 26-September 05 From: Philadelphia Member No.: 507 |
that seems pretty meaty for a quick swing. most exciting is the remote possibility we may see some emissions at europa as we did at enceladus. that would be fantastic. if that did happen, wouldn’t that almost insure the odds of a flagship mission to europa?
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Mar 3 2007, 02:13 PM
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 16-May 06 From: Geneva, Switzerland Member No.: 773 |
New Horizons is also supposed to map the intriguing arcuate depressions (or "crop circles") by making near terminator imaging. Will the resolution really be high enough to see them ?
Thinking about Europa pictures, I remember that I saw (a long time ago) some small pictures taken by Voyager 2 showing Europa being eclipsed by Jupiter's own shadow (a rare Voyager 2 "Kodak moment"). Has anybody an idea where these pictures could be found ? (Sorry, this question is not directly linked to this thread). Marc. |
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Mar 3 2007, 03:01 PM
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#16
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8785 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
most exciting is the remote possibility we may see some emissions at europa as we did at enceladus. That would be exciting indeed, but remote is definitely the word. Just eyeballing the trajectory with respect to Europa seems to indicate that there probably weren't any good angles for such observations...plus any putative Europan geysers would in all likelihood be pretty tiny. Of course, I'd be delighted to be completely wrong, here! -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Mar 4 2007, 02:17 AM
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#17
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3419 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Minneapolis, MN, USA Member No.: 15 |
I speculate that Europa simply cannot be emitting anything more than a tiny fraction of the mass that Enceladus is emitting (if any at all), or else the Voyagers and Galileo would have observed the ring/torus of particles that such outgassing would create. Assuming, of course, that geysers on Europa would propel particles fast enough to escape its gravity and form a ring in the first place...
But, I mean, really -- the smoke ring created by Enceladus is noticeable enough that, if there was such a ring at Europa's orbit, it would have been discovered by now (as, for example, the sulphur torus at Io's orbit was discovered fairly early on). -the other Doug -------------------- “The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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Mar 4 2007, 04:23 AM
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#18
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1276 Joined: 25-November 04 Member No.: 114 |
QUOTE the sulphur torus at Io's orbit was discovered fairly early on From earth based observations? Or the Voyager flybys? |
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Mar 4 2007, 05:29 AM
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#19
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3419 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Minneapolis, MN, USA Member No.: 15 |
Voyager flybys, as I recall. I'm just thinking that any really energetic geysers on Europa would eject enough water (ice crystals) to create an observable torus. I grant you, the sulphur torus is very energetically enriched, constantly... but also as I recall, many of the probes that have gone to or past Jupiter have had rather sensitive spectrometers that would have detected even a very tenuous water ice torus in Europa's orbit.
I'd think that such detection would be possible from Earthbound telescopes, too, at this point -- but I could be wrong. -the other Doug -------------------- “The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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Mar 4 2007, 08:40 AM
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#20
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1870 Joined: 20-February 05 Member No.: 174 |
Somebody do the arithmetic...
What is the escape veolcity at Enceladus...? What is the estimated plume velocity at zero altitude...? What is the escape velocity at Europa... |
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Mar 4 2007, 10:11 AM
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#21
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Dublin Correspondent Group: Admin Posts: 1799 Joined: 28-March 05 From: Celbridge, Ireland Member No.: 220 |
Surface escape speed at Enceladus ~ 239 m/sec.
Surface escape speed at Europa ~ 2026 m/sec. (Quick and dirty escape velocity calculations\spreadsheet here ) I don't believe that we have much in the way of accurate data on the velocity profile of the contents of the plumes at the moment but my understanding is that the observed density profile strongly suggests that the majority of the material is slower than the Enceladan (osian? usian? Yankee?) escape velocity (e.g the concusion from this paper - Understanding the escape of water from Enceladus by Burger et al) . |
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Mar 4 2007, 02:29 PM
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 121 Joined: 26-September 05 From: Philadelphia Member No.: 507 |
I don't believe that we have much in the way of accurate data on the velocity profile of the contents of the plumes at the moment but my understanding is that the observed density profile strongly suggests that the majority of the material is slower than the Enceladan i'm confused… the way you wrote that sounds like you are comparing plumes on enceladus to those on europa. i would love someone to tell me that i somehow missed the discovery of emissions at europa -------------------- |
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Mar 4 2007, 03:33 PM
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#23
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1669 Joined: 5-March 05 From: Boulder, CO Member No.: 184 |
From earth based observations? Or the Voyager flybys? I'd say Earth based in 1972 as discussed at the following URL: http://www.phim.unibe.ch/pig/io.htm#Detect...ion%20near%20Io -------------------- Steve [ my home page and planetary maps page ]
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Mar 4 2007, 03:40 PM
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#24
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8785 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
Actually, IIRC, the Io torus, Saturn's E-ring, and Titan's hydrogen torus were all discovered from ground-based observations back in the 70s. Io's position along its orbit was found to have an effect on Jupiter's radio emissions, and this was the first hint that something was going on there. The E-ring was found visually, and I think that Titan's hydrogen was also found via radio astronomy, but don't know the details.
The interesting implication here is that planetary satellites in equatorial orbits with 'outgassing' surfaces tend to leave rather obvious signatures/artifacts along their orbits. (I wouldn't expect to see anything in Triton's orbit; Triton itself only stays there out of sheer inertia!) This probably does not bode well for any significant surface activity on Europa. -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Mar 4 2007, 05:26 PM
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#25
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Junior Member Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 29-December 05 Member No.: 623 |
The interesting implication here is that planetary satellites in equatorial orbits with 'outgassing' surfaces tend to leave rather obvious signatures/artifacts along their orbits. This probably does not bode well for any significant surface activity on Europa. Speak not too soon--and credit Cassini researchers with the discovery: Energetic neutral atoms from a trans-Europa gas torus at Jupiter B. H. Mauk, D. G. Mitchell, S. M. Krimigis, E. C. Roelof and C. P. Paranicas Nature 421, 920-922 (27 February 2003) Here we report the analysis of ... a torus of emission residing just outside the orbit of Jupiter's satellite Europa. The trans-Europa component shows that, unexpectedly, Europa generates a gas cloud comparable in gas content to that associated with the volcanic moon Io. The quantity of gas found indicates that Europa has a much greater impact than hitherto believed on the structure of, and the energy flow within, Jupiter's magnetosphere. There is a nice summary of this article here: Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab Researchers Discover Massive Gas Cloud Around Jupiter http://www.jhuapl.edu/newscenter/pressrele...2003/030227.htm |
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Mar 4 2007, 07:24 PM
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#26
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Dublin Correspondent Group: Admin Posts: 1799 Joined: 28-March 05 From: Celbridge, Ireland Member No.: 220 |
i'm confused… the way you wrote that sounds like you are comparing plumes on enceladus to those on europa. i would love someone to tell me that i somehow missed the discovery of emissions at europa Apologies - I was just responding to Edstrick's question regarding escape velocities. No one has found any plumes on Europa as far as I'm aware. The thread started on the back of speculation that NH might be able to image a dust\gas\debris torus if one existed * - the escape velocity point indicates that the Enceladan mechanism would probably be incapable of achieving escape velocity for any material on Europa even in the (unlikely) event that it also existed there. this was all entirely speculative, at least from my POV. Edited to add: I see that vexgismo has pointed out that Cassini has already found just such a torus. Well explaining that is going to be fun. |
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Mar 4 2007, 07:30 PM
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#27
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8785 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
Ho, ho!!! VERY interesting, Vexgizmo, thank you! So far in our experience, where there's a torus, there's a "fire"....
EDIT: Here's a thought. Enceladus blasts out through a few cracks near its south pole (okay, maybe I could have phrased that better... )...but Europa is cracked pretty much all over, with some concentration in the equatorial regions, it seems. Maybe we need to be looking for an overall 'haze' of outgassing instead of discrete plumes...in any case, we need some backlit imagery. Galileo apparently acquired some of this, but I'm not very good at retreiving things from thr NASA PDS...would be worth the effort of some of the imagesmiths here to take another look at this data! -------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Mar 4 2007, 09:23 PM
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#28
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Dublin Correspondent Group: Admin Posts: 1799 Joined: 28-March 05 From: Celbridge, Ireland Member No.: 220 |
Well they seem pretty certain that Jovian environmental radiation is sufficient to explain what has been detected.
QUOTE Stretching millions of miles around Jupiter, the donut-shaped cloud, known as a "torus," is believed to result from the uncommonly severe bombardment of ion radiation that Jupiter sends toward Europa. That radiation damages Europa's surface, kicking up and pulling apart water-ice molecules and dispersing them along Europa's orbit into a neutral-gas torus with a mass of about 60,000 tons. A significant percentage of such atoms will (eventually) escape from Europa even with its fairly low surface temperatures - H2 would have an rms molecular speed of around 1400m/sec and O2 around 350m/sec in that environment - that definitely puts H2 firmly in the escaping from the moon (eventually) camp, not so sure about the Oxygen molecule. Non molecular H and O atoms both fall into the escaping set too. |
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Mar 4 2007, 09:51 PM
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#29
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Merciless Robot Group: Admin Posts: 8785 Joined: 8-December 05 From: Los Angeles Member No.: 602 |
Mmm...yeah, probably. Still, I remember that Io's torus was once explained as a result of radiational "sputtering" of sodium atoms from its surface. I question both the replenishment rate & longevity of Europa's torus via this similar mechanism, although H/H2 certainly can escape much more readily than Na.
-------------------- A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Mar 5 2007, 05:00 PM
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#30
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 3-March 07 Member No.: 1812 |
On comparing Enceladus and Io:
The torus of particles in Io's orbit does not come directly from the volcanoes; it comes from "atmospheric sputtering." The volcanoes contribute to Io's tenuous atmosphere; which is "stripped" by the magnetospheric radiation (atmospheric sputtering). Surface sputtering, the ejection of molecules following ion impact mentioned above, might also contribute. To see an Enceladus-like plume, we'll need to look close to the surface. |
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Mar 29 2007, 09:58 PM
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#31
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Administrator Group: Admin Posts: 5172 Joined: 4-August 05 From: Pasadena, CA, USA, Earth Member No.: 454 |
There's now 7 separate Europa observations up on the SOC page; by my count we're waiting for 5 more, most of them taken after the 7 shown here. Here's an animation of the 7 we've got (click to animate). I tried to set them all to have roughly similar histograms. Many of the observations have two different exposures, 5 and 10 milliseconds, to look at terminator topography. I tried to merge some detail along the terminator from the 10-millisecond exposures with the 5-millisecond exposures, but after a bit of futzing with it I wasn't achieving anything that looked much better than the 5-millisecond exposures by themselves.
--Emily -------------------- My website - My Patreon - @elakdawalla on Twitter - Please support unmannedspaceflight.com by donating here.
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Mar 30 2007, 05:40 AM
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#32
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Senior Member Group: Moderator Posts: 3242 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Tucson, AZ Member No.: 23 |
Very cool, Emily. Going off your idea, I've created a movie of the Io images uploaded thus far.
Any sign of the great circle topography the NH folks were looking for? -------------------- &@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io |
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Mar 30 2007, 07:42 AM
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#33
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1887 Joined: 20-November 04 From: Iowa Member No.: 110 |
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Mar 30 2007, 08:47 AM
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#34
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3648 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
Any sign of the great circle topography the NH folks were looking for? Seeing the images so far, I kind of have trouble imagining any topography (especially as subtle as the "crop circles") will be easy to make out. Looking forward to be proven wrong. -------------------- |
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Mar 30 2007, 02:44 PM
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#35
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Administrator Group: Admin Posts: 5172 Joined: 4-August 05 From: Pasadena, CA, USA, Earth Member No.: 454 |
Any sign of the great circle topography the NH folks were looking for? I did find the terminator to be a little less perfect-shaped than I would expect for the solar system's smoothest moon, but I think that the interesting stuff will be buried in the fine details of the pixel values in the non-JPEGged images. --Emily -------------------- My website - My Patreon - @elakdawalla on Twitter - Please support unmannedspaceflight.com by donating here.
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Mar 30 2007, 04:00 PM
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 706 Joined: 3-December 04 From: Boulder, Colorado, USA Member No.: 117 |
I think we'll need to subtract out the albedo features (which we can do using high-sun Galileo images of the same regions) in order to see the topography...
John. |
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Mar 30 2007, 05:40 PM
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#37
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3648 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
I think we'll need to subtract out the albedo features (which we can do using high-sun Galileo images of the same regions) in order to see the topography... Regarding that, just what is the S/N ratio you achieved with Europa, seeing how low exposures were needed and Europa being a pretty high albedo body? -------------------- |
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Apr 2 2007, 12:57 PM
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#38
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Solar System Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 10229 Joined: 5-April 05 From: Canada Member No.: 227 |
This image is a comparison between a NH image of Europa (not necessarily the best!) and a Galileo image reduced to the same scale and contrast. Three parallel troughs near the terminator (ringed in the right-hand image) are parts of one of the 'crop circles'. You can see how difficult they will be to isolate visually. But I would say they should be relatively easy to spot when Galileo albedo images are subtracted.
Phil -------------------- ... because the Solar System ain't gonna map itself.
Also to be found posting similar content on https://mastodon.social/@PhilStooke Maps for download (free PDF: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Cartography.pdf NOTE: everything created by me which I post on UMSF is considered to be in the public domain (NOT CC, public domain) |
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Apr 2 2007, 05:59 PM
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 540 Joined: 25-October 05 From: California Member No.: 535 |
New image of Io and Europa next to each other in MVIC image!
http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/gallery/missionPho...ges/040207.html -------------------- 2011 JPL Tweetup photos: http://www.rich-parno.com/aa_jpltweetup.html
http://human-spaceflight.blogspot.com |
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Guest_John Flushing_* |
Apr 2 2007, 06:06 PM
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#40
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Guests |
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Apr 2 2007, 06:08 PM
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#41
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3648 Joined: 1-October 05 From: Croatia Member No.: 523 |
Beautiful!
QUOTE This particular scene was suggested by space enthusiast Richard Hendricks of Austin, Texas, in response to an Internet request by New Horizons scientists for evocative, artistic imaging opportunities at Jupiter. What an honor! -------------------- |
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Apr 2 2007, 06:10 PM
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#42
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Dublin Correspondent Group: Admin Posts: 1799 Joined: 28-March 05 From: Celbridge, Ireland Member No.: 220 |
And a shout out to Hendric too in the comments, this is the first of the Hendric Moments.
Nice. I hope you are getting lots of copies to show folks. Magical. |
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Apr 2 2007, 06:24 PM
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#43
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Member Group: Members Posts: 562 Joined: 29-March 05 Member No.: 221 |
Kudos to hendric and kudos to the new horizon team for making this possible.
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Apr 2 2007, 09:13 PM
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#44
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Director of Galilean Photography Group: Members Posts: 896 Joined: 15-July 04 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 93 |
Ah man, I didn't do anything except run a few spreadsheets. It sure is a damn fine image! Kudos to the NH team!
John sent me a copy of this last week, and it was excrutiating not to talk about it! And now I can change out my avatar! Let me just say that with the 5 minutes of fame from Emily's story, and the 10 minutes from this one, I am now Space Enthusiast Richard Hendricks forever! -------------------- Space Enthusiast Richard Hendricks
-- "The engineers, as usual, made a tremendous fuss. Again as usual, they did the job in half the time they had dismissed as being absolutely impossible." --Rescue Party, Arthur C Clarke Mother Nature is the final inspector of all quality. |
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Apr 2 2007, 09:35 PM
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#45
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14434 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
Major major kudos to Alan, John and Space Enthusiast Richard Hendricks...don't know if I should be, but I'm sort of proud of that image.
I've given Space Enthusiast Richard Hendricks a new forum title DOug |
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Apr 2 2007, 09:50 PM
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#46
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2530 Joined: 20-April 05 Member No.: 321 |
Major major kudos to Alan, John and Space Enthusiast Richard Hendricks...don't know if I should be, but I'm sort of proud of that image. DOug Well, it probably wouldn't be there without your efforts in launching the board. I think it's an inspiration in that, inasmuch as engineering this missions is a devilishly complex matter at lots of stages, some worthwhile results can come from an easily accessible level of knowledge. It's a nasty engineering process that doesn't recognize the difference and be open to the second. That's the message behind a lot of the ESA-directed complaints on this board, and of the downtrodden throughout history. The cry of the unrecognized talent saying, "Hey, I can do this!" It's a great image for that reason and for the reasons the retina sees immediately. It's got a little of that Apollo 8 earthrise feel for me. |
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Apr 3 2007, 04:08 AM
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#47
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Member Group: Members Posts: 706 Joined: 3-December 04 From: Boulder, Colorado, USA Member No.: 117 |
Yes, thanks to Doug, UMSF and Hendric in particular for making this possible! The LORRI image that goes along with this should be equally spectacular, of course, though I don't think we get that down for a while. Especially cool for me personally is the fact that the picture was taken on my 50th birthday.
Thanks too to Emily for her nice writeup on her blog. This is such a great community we have here- I'm proud to be a part of it. John. |
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Apr 3 2007, 06:19 AM
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#48
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 27-February 07 Member No.: 1790 |
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Guest_John Flushing_* |
May 2 2007, 12:52 AM
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#49
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Guests |
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