MSL Video Options

[Jim from NSF.com]

Saw the MSL video, which was similar to the MER video. It was awesome. Will try to get a copy

[hal_9000]

Saw the MSL video, which was similar to the MER video. It was awesome. Will try to get a copy

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/multimedia/...x_animation.php

[Stephen]

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/multimedia/...x_animation.php

Very nice, but that video's for the 2007 Phoenix lander, not the 2009 MSL rover.

======
Stephen

[Toma B]

Saw the MSL video...

Where did you saw it Jim?

[Jim from NSF.com]

B)-->

Where did you saw it Jim?
[/quote]


MSL PDR

[RonJones]

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Toma B @ Jun 6 2006, 08:31 AM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Where did you saw it Jim?
MSL PDR

It looks like they have a place on the MSL web site where the video will be added (hopefully soon): http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/gallery/


Ron Jones

[Toma B]

There is GIGANTIC image of MSL here.
Link to 25 MB jpeg image...
Is that maybe still from that animation you were talking about Jim?
Looks to me like there is some work to be done on that rendering like adding RTG's...

[Chmee]

B)-->

Looks to me like there is some work to be done on that rendering like adding RTG's...
[/quote]

It is strange that nearly every image of MSL has it without its RTG. Very strange, is it expected to be powered by dark energy?

Probably they keep it out of the publicity images to keep a lower profile since there are some groups that adamantly oppose *anything* nuclear. Even peaceful scientific missions...

Also, the camera on the mast surprises me. Would they not have two camera's for binocular vision? How can they tell distances without it?

[Guest_BruceMoomaw_*]

It is a stereo camera -- it just doesn't look like one in the drawing. (By the way, the "ChemCam" experiment that will fire a laser at mineral targets as much as a dozen meters away, to obtain instantaneous and sensitive spectra of their element makeup, also includes a black-and-white telescopic targeting camera that will also be used for very high-resolution long-distance images of terrain features.)

[paxdan]

One thing that the MERs have shown us is that the surface of rocks on mars can have a substantial rind of altered rock or deposited material and dust coatings. How is the chem cam + laser going to detect the rock underneath this rind and not just the ubiquitous dust covering? Are they going to brush the rocks first then standoff and zap them, my understanding was that the chem cam was going to be a remote sensing instrument (as described by bruce in the above post). Will that be tempered by the need to 'clean' the rock surface first.

[climber]

Any possible use to detect Purgatory's sort of trap ?

[climber]

For quite a while, I've been frustrated that the rovers can't look under their deck. It would have been helpfull for Purgatory's kind of events. This could have been solved by adding a simple mirror on the IDD so the cameras would have been able to take pictures. A bit tricky but may be an idea for MSL.

[Tesheiner]

This could have been solved by adding a simple mirror on the IDD so the cameras would have been able to take pictures.

Voila!



And Horton did a nice work on the raw 12-bit images here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hortonheardawho/161036378/

[centsworth_II]

How is the chem cam + laser going to detect the rock underneath this rind and not just the ubiquitous dust covering?

The laser itself clears the dust and then vaporizes the rock surface layer by layer for spectroscopic analysis (of the vaporized material, I assume). The area sampled by the laser is 0.5 to 1mm in diameter but I wonder what the maximum depth is that can be reached.

There's an interesting pdf power point presentation here:
http://libs.lanl.gov/ChemCam_Fact_Sheet.pdf

[climber]

[quote name='Tesheiner' date='Jun 7 2006, 12:19 PM' post='57377']
Voila!

Do you mean, it's for REAL or is that another trick? If real, don't you think it could have been of some use while stucked in the sand ?

[Tesheiner]

No trick (follow the link clicking on the image); remember that a polished metal plate acts as a mirror.
But don't ask me which IDD instrument is that black box (Mossbauer maybe?)

[jamescanvin]

I think it's the electorincs box for the micro imager. There are similar shiny boxes next to all the cameras.

[Guest_BruceMoomaw_*]

There's no Mossbauer this time. Indeed, one surprise in the MSL payload is the total absence of any devoted mineralogical instruments on MSL other than the X-ray diffractometer that requires the actual ingestion and grinding of samples -- no Mossbauer, no Raman, no near-IR or thermal-IR spectrometer (although the flash spectrometers for ChemCam can do some reflection-spectrum work as well). The only two instruments on the arm are the color microscopic camera and a near-duplicate of the APX element spectrometer from the MER rovers (which, I've been told, is there largely as a backup in case ChemCam doesn't work as well as predicted).

[hendric]

Still no EDL video?? I'd like to add it to my collection.

[gndonald]

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Toma B @ Jun 6 2006, 01:55 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Looks to me like there is some work to be done on that rendering like adding RTG's...
It is strange that nearly every image of MSL has it without its RTG. Very strange, is it expected to be powered by dark energy?

Probably they keep it out of the publicity images to keep a lower profile since there are some groups that adamantly oppose *anything* nuclear. Even peaceful scientific missions...

Also, the camera on the mast surprises me. Would they not have two camera's for binocular vision? How can they tell distances without it?

I could have sworn that there were some pictures that did show the probe with RTGs fitted, which made it look somewhat like a bombardeer beetle, but they seem to have disappeared from the net unless someone has copies.

[PhilHorzempa]

Any updates on the MSL entry and landing video?

Also, has anyone heard if JPL/NASA has chosen a snappy name,
for the MSL yet? Perhaps, something like Phoenix or Ares or
Lance Armstrong?


Another Phil

[Jim from NSF.com]

Any updates on the MSL entry and landing video?

Also, has anyone heard if JPL/NASA has chosen a snappy name,
for the MSL yet? Perhaps, something like Phoenix or Ares or
Lance Armstrong?
Another Phil

Will be getting another opportunity this week to see the video again. Will try to get it.

Phoenix was the name of the project from since its proposal. ARES is an acronym. It is too early for MSL

[PhilHorzempa]

For those interested in MSL's RTG system, here is the link
to a great paper summarizing the design. It looks like
they have it figured it out, at least in the engineering world.
Perhaps, it is the world of politics, or the availability
of Plutonium, or both, that is holding back
a definite decision.

http://marstech.jpl.nasa.gov/publications/...-2005-01-28.pdf



Another Phil

[angel1801]

Russia has said to the US that the US can buy Plutonium-238 for $2000 per gram from Russia if and only if it is NOT used for any military purpose. Russia has lots of Plutonium-238 to give the US!

The US has said it will resume domestic production of Plutonium-238 as soon as possible.

It is most likely that there is a lot of political sensitivity to anything nuclear. Just look at the fuss over the Galileo, Cassini and New Horizons missions!

If we told the people that RTG's were used in the Viking landers, then I'm sure most of the fuss will go away.

Protestors are strange people. No one protested against the launch of the Voyager 1 & 2 probes. Why? Voyager 2 was launched on August 20, 1977, just 4 days after Elvis Presley died! And Voyager 1 launch date (on September 5, 1977) was during the immense grieving over his death!

[ljk4-1]

Protestors are strange people. No one protested against the launch of the Voyager 1 & 2 probes. Why? Voyager 2 was launched on August 20, 1977, just 4 days after Elvis Presley died! And Voyager 1 launch date (on September 5, 1977) was during the immense grieving over his death!

I recall one quite vocal anti-nuke protestor who was not only deeply
concerned that Cassini would somehow fly back to Earth and crash
on it after exploring Saturn but that during the probe's 1999 flyby of
Venus that NASA should have let the craft smash into the second
world from Sol because the planet had no atmosphere!

I was also told by a friend who attended an anti-Cassini (read anti-nuke)
group meeting in Cambridge, MA in 1997 (home to Harvard) that when
he tried to explain how safe Cassini's RTGs were even from an explosion
of the rocket, he was told they didn't want the facts because they had
already made up their minds that Cassini was dangerous and had to
be stopped.

After all that, any amount of sympathy I had with the anti-nuke groups
went right out the window.

BTW, Groucho Marx died around the same time as the Voyagers left
Earth and Elvis went into hiding, but sadly people didn't seem as upset
about his passing.

[Chmee]

For those interested in MSL's RTG system, here is the link
to a great paper summarizing the design.
http://marstech.jpl.nasa.gov/publications/...-2005-01-28.pdf
Another Phil

The very interesting thing in this paper is that they state that thermal control will be maintained by pumping fluid heated from the RTG throughout the MSL.

Basically, MSL will be like a large car radiator! This has to be a much simpler design than electrical heaters, but I worry about leaks that could happen (like my car's radiator ).

[climber]

The very interesting thing in this paper is that they state that thermal control will be maintained by pumping fluid ....throughout the MSL.

OK, in this case we can name MSL : Lance Armstrong**


** see post #21

[dilo]

hmm.. "The working fluid is CFC-11".
I guess we do not have an ozone depletion issue on Mars (...probably we need a little more atmospheric oxygen )

[hendric]

Basically, MSL will be like a large car radiator! This has to be a much simpler design than electrical heaters, but I worry about leaks that could happen (like my car's radiator ).

Oddly enough, I would imagine it to be much more reliable than a car radiator:

1. Smaller temperature change - The internal electronics are in a box, so I would expect the temperature change from day/night to be small compared to a car radiator's on/of.
2. No jarring impact - Well, other than launch and landing, and falling off the odd rock. But no speedbumps, hitting road debris at 70mph, etc.
3. No bugs/rocks whacking into the radiator fins -

[Jim from NSF.com]

Any updates on the MSL entry and landing video?

Can't get it. It was on a DVD and not a .MOV file

[mars_armer]

A search on youtube for "JPL MSL" came up with this:
MSL EDL Animation

[lyford]

hmmm - i didn't realize that the plan was to lower the MSL from so high above the surface before touchdown..... I imagined the hover in place would have been more similar in height to right before the airbags are cut on MER.

edited for grammar

[Stephen]

A search on youtube for "JPL MSL" came up with this:
MSL EDL Animation

Quite a find! (I liked the blurb at the end: "Coming to a planet near you October 2010".)

I notice the video was only posted a few days ago. Have NASA & JPL posted this on their websites yet? The MSL website here keeps saying "coming soon".

======
Stephen

[nprev]

Very cool indeed, but I sure hope they don't put her in the bottom of a canyon unless there's definitely a way out...

[MarkL]

Nice video. Agreed, Lyford. I think they are nuts to depart from the proven payload delivery system that worked perfectly for Pathfinder and the MERs. The long descent with retro rockets will be treacherous and unpredictable. I don't trust a computer to do it as well as a parachute! (But major kudos if it works of course and I will be happy to come back here and eat my words).

[remcook]

"I think they are nuts to depart from the proven payload delivery system that worked perfectly for Pathfinder and the MERs."

I though MER was about the limit of what you can put onto Mars with that technology...

[centsworth_II]

The long descent with retro rockets will be treacherous and unpredictable. I don't trust a computer to do it as well as a parachute!

Lots to be scared about! What if ALL the cords connecting the rover to the decent engine don't detatch before it flys off after landing the rover?

[lyford]

Scaling up MER to MSL won't work with airbags from what I have read.... and I have even come around to accepting skycrane as a workable concept. What makes me nuts is that they don't seem to be planning full scale live testing in the desert, but rather are relying on modeling. Test as you fly, eh?

Or perhaps someone can clue me in on why I should be happy about this....

[djellison]

If you describe to yourself the process of the MPF and MER landings, and then do the same for the MSL landing...neither is particularly confidence inspiriing.

The thing to remember is that there is only one team of working age in the world that has landed on Mars, and it's done it three times. If they think that the MSL system is the way forward, to be brutally honest there isn't really anyone out there to challenge that imho.

" The long descent with retro rockets will be treacherous and unpredictable."

Well - that's no different to Viking (worked twice) - and indeed given that it's from only 900m altitiude, the MSL decent stage will be working for a shorter period of time than that for Viking probably. We did that 25 years ago.... to call it treacherous and unpredictable today is not true.

There was no full scale testing for Pathfinder, Viking, MER...you just can not test that sort of stuff on Earth - there's no way to replicate the conditions. You can test systems, you can simulate based on those systems - but you just have to build enough smarts and flexibility into the system to mitigate the risk.

And as someone else has mentioned - the bags just don't 'do' bigger....and as it is they take up a HUGE ammount of the payload. For a delivered rover of 180kg, you have 827kg hitting the top of the atmosphere. Scale it all up - a 500kg rover - we're talkig 2300 kg at the top of the atmosphere. The bags are good up to a certain point - but beyond that, they just don't make any more sense.

Doug

[helvick]

What if ALL the cords connecting the rover to the decent engine don't detatch before it flys off after landing the rover?

The cord cutting event does look awfully risky when you see it on video but it's not significantly different to the risk associated with blowing the backshell\heatshield and the hundreds of other exquisitely choreographed events that are needed for any lander to get to the surface safely.

Now I would be terrified if I was the engineer actually responsible for making sure it was 100% OK but I think it's safe to say that these guys have proven (repeatedly) that they are pretty damn good at that sort of thing.

The SkyCrane is ambitious but it's not insanely ambitious and I remember prior to the Pathfinder just how insane that seemed before it was proven (again, repeatedly).

I'm a fan - and I'm really happy that we've finally gotten to see this animation. Sweet and many thanks to tubeyhowser for posting it, whoever he/she/it/they are

[lyford]

There was no full scale testing for Pathfinder, Viking, MER...you just can not test that sort of stuff on Earth - there's no way to replicate the conditions.

I agree, but for some reason I thought they had planned live testing of the "hover and drop" bit but it had been cancelled due to budget. I may be misremembering but I would feel better if they had said that they had cancelled it due to confidence in the simulations.

[centsworth_II]

The thing to remember is that there is only one team of working age in the world that has landed on Mars, and it's done it three times.

No disrespect meant, I'm a big fan of those guys, but this is the point at which one must be on the lookout for hubris. I hope they keep their edge and do not get over confident.

[ustrax]

No disrespect meant, I'm a big fan of those guys, but this is the point at which one must be on the lookout for hubris. I hope they keep their edge and do not get over confident.

I'm sure that when the airbag idea appeared there were also comments regarding the lunacy of the idea...
The time is to innovate and...roll!

[MarkL]

Check out this article if interested in more detail on MSL EDL. Doug, no matter how you slice it EDL is treacherous and requires perfect execution. It seems like a miracle that the little guys/gals get down in one piece.

Edit: Sadly, wouldn't be complete without this.

[djellison]

Doug, no matter how you slice it EDL is treacherous and requires perfect execution. .

I totally and utterly agree 110% and would never suggest otherwise. However - there is much criticism of the skycrane manouver simply because it looks a bit scarey. So did Viking, so did MPF, so did MPL and so did MER. In some respects it is a hybrid of Viking and MER/MPF techniques...the throttled decent of Viking followed by lander seperation on a bridle and bridle cut at the surface.

I thnk I've been through every PDF I can find and I've even swopped emails with some JPL engineers about the MSL system. When you REALLY think about it - if it can be made to work (and I have no reason to see otherwise) it's arguably a more reliable means of getting things on the ground than the MER system, and certainly the most weight efficient way of getting a rover of that size on the ground.

Put it this way - I have a higher expectation of the MSL system than I would of a repeat of the MER/MPF system and arguably higher than the MPL/Phoenix pulse throttle system.

You are very wrong to label them as 'nuts' for leaving the MER system behind. It simply can not scale to MSL weight. They have to come up with a means of getting a rover on the ground outside that platform. The 'long decent with retro rockets' is actually going to be a shorter decent on retro rockets than was the case for Viking - only about 900 metres. Look at the efforts of Armadillo Aerospace with very little money and time to produce something which could be seen as similar to the MSL decent stage.

I'm not trying to ignore the difficulties...being here in Leicester, I really don't need to be reminded how hard landing on mars actually is... but I'm yet to see a sound argument against the MSL design based on anything other than 'it looks scarey'. With an atmosphere not thick enough to be usefull but thick enough to be a problem - landing on Mars will ALWAYS be scarey.

Doug

(PS - other cool docs - http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/handle/2014/39907 - http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/handle/2014/39871 and http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/handle/2014/38898 )

[tty]

The cord cutting event does look awfully risky when you see it on video but it's not significantly different to the risk associated with blowing the backshell\heatshield and the hundreds of other exquisitely choreographed events that are needed for any lander to get to the surface safely.

I agree. In Aerospace applications whenever You have a one-time event that absolutely has to work (typically escape or emergency systems) pyrotechnics are normally the system of choice. They are extremely reliable, degrade very slowly and act instantly.

tty

[edstrick]

they often have duplicate circuits for really critical pyrotechnics. Duplicate pyros, wiring, everything.

It's extraordinarily rare for pyros to fail to fire. Last time I remember that happening, they put one large sat on a ?Titan? built for two, and wired the spacecraft separation to the wrong pyro-lines. When the booster control sent the separation command, it went down the wires to the non-existent pyros to separate the nonexistant second sat.

That was the last one the Shuttle rescued before they stopped doing that sort of thing.

[JTN]

It's going to be funny to look back and see rover tracks just starting from nowhere. Hadn't occurred to me before.
(I guess we might get a bit of a mark from the rockets?)

[Jeff7]

The cord cutting event does look awfully risky when you see it on video but it's not significantly different to the risk associated with blowing the backshell\heatshield and the hundreds of other exquisitely choreographed events that are needed for any lander to get to the surface safely.

Exactly. The MERs could have been killed by any number of other things too. Maybe the bolts wouldn't have blown to set the rovers free of the landers. Maybe the solar panel wings wouldn't have deployed, so the rovers would have been as good as dead anyway. All kinds of things can go wrong, many of which could end the mission before it begins. You just have to hope that everything goes as planned.

I'm sure that when the airbag idea appeared there were also comments regarding the lunacy of the idea...
The time is to innovate and...roll!

I seem to recall something from a documentary about the MERs that was to this effect, that a lot of people thought that airbags would never stand a chance of working. So I think you're right.

[Navin]

A search on youtube for "JPL MSL" came up with this:
MSL EDL Animation

This MSL EDL video was played tonight on stage at this Kobie Boykins presentation. It was fantastic. The video was longer and extended beyond the YouTube version to include more surface operations. It included a nice segment where the laser ablated a rock and an instrument recorded readings from the "smoke" wafting away and the hole in the rock. Spiffy demonstration.

The longer video also depicted a core sampling drill that could be used on rocks or on the "soil". The core sample (depicted from penetrating a rock) was slipped out of the bit and placed INTO the MSL for some unspecified analysis. Very cool. I hope the whole video makes it onto the web soon.

Kobie Boykins is a MER solar panel designer. Someone in the audience remarked that the MSL video showed no solar panels. He responded (paraphrased): "No. No solar panels. I'll let you speculate on what its power source is, since I'm not allowed to publicly discuss it yet."

[nprev]

Hmm...curious, but probably wise for a mass audience.

[ustrax]

A search on youtube for "JPL MSL" came up with this:
MSL EDL Animation

That zooming out in the end, leaving MSL all alone, gives me a chill in the stomach...

[Jim from NSF.com]

The longer video also depicted a core sampling drill that could be used on rocks or on the "soil". The core sample (depicted from penetrating a rock) was slipped out of the bit and placed INTO the MSL for some unspecified analysis. Very cool. I hope the whole video makes it onto the web soon.

I believe that the corer no longer is part of the mission

[djellison]

leaving MSL all alone

If you feel sorry for the 3/4 ton rover with nucelar power and a frickin laser beam on its mast....what must you feel for the MER's

Doug

[ustrax]

Doug...
They're grown up now, our two girls have shown to know how to take care of themselves...

[mchan]

Yes!!! More of them 3/4 ton rovers with nuclear power and frickin laser beams attached to their masts!!! Throw me a bone here, I want high definition video, too!!!

[As old as Voyage...]

This MSL EDL video was played tonight on stage at this Kobie Boykins presentation. It was fantastic. The video was longer and extended beyond the YouTube version to include more surface operations. It included a nice segment where the laser ablated a rock and an instrument recorded readings from the "smoke" wafting away and the hole in the rock. Spiffy demonstration.

The longer video also depicted a core sampling drill that could be used on rocks or on the "soil". The core sample (depicted from penetrating a rock) was slipped out of the bit and placed INTO the MSL for some unspecified analysis. Very cool. I hope the whole video makes it onto the web soon.

Kobie Boykins is a MER solar panel designer. Someone in the audience remarked that the MSL video showed no solar panels. He responded (paraphrased): "No. No solar panels. I'll let you speculate on what its power source is, since I'm not allowed to publicly discuss it yet."

Laser sampling of a martian rock and core drilling by MSL are seen as part of the following Sky at Night extended Mars special. They may be from the same simulation as mentioned above and look pretty cool:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacegu.../proginfo.shtml

[gpurcell]

Sure gives a sense of just how radical the Skycrane concept is.

That's got to be the most "science-fictiony" thing I've ever seen bent into metal.

[As old as Voyage...]

Upon seeing the MSL rover in simulations I'm always struck by just how scorpion-like the thing looks. That inclined rear RTG really gives it a sting in the tail and the whole thing looks quite menacing, like it'd eat Sojourner for breakfast!

[Stephen]

A search on youtube for "JPL MSL" came up with this:
MSL EDL Animation

Came across this student project version of MSL's EDL sequence on Youtube (done "a few years ago"): Re: MSL EDL.

======
Stephen

[gpurcell]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I love the Firefly style camera work in the JPL animation....

[Toma B]

Just find this...
Mars Science Laboratory Mission Animation - May 25, 2007
MSL animations

[nprev]

Thanks, Toma!

Man...LOTS of moving parts on this critter...

[Toma B]

I like that Hollywood-style action camera movement in and out of rover...

[Stu]

Just watched the animation (a loooong download on dialup, but worth it! Thanks for the link!) and a whole range of thoughts went thru my mind...

Watching the initial descent: Wow, that's amazing!!

Watching the Skycrane part: *****!!! Are they INSANE?!?!?!?!?! They're really going to DO that?!?!?!?! Hang it beneath a rocket platform like something off Thunderbirds?!?!?! Are they NUTS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Watching the surface operations: oh, can't wait for that...

Watching the rover hang its head and go to sleep at the end of a sol: awwwwwwww........

Watching the rock sample going through the works: if THAT all works it'll be a miracle...

Watching the closing sequence as the dusty rover rolls away: I want that. Now.

[RedSky]

The whole suspend and release process really scares me. I remember a probable cause for the Mars Polar Lander's failure was when the landing gear extended the "bump" that created may have been interpreted as touchdown, so the engines cut off while still at altitude. I can see a similar tug or bump possibly happening to MSL while in suspended state (from air turbulence, swinging, or reaching the bottom of the cable reel-out.)

I don't know why the "skycrane" (in basically its same configuration), couldn't just have landing leg extensions (straddling MSL) and actually land (eliminating the MSL hanging in air). Once landed, MSL could just be similarly reeled down a few inches to the surface, cut loose, and then drive away. That way, they still have their immediately rovable rover, without the dangerous in-air suspension.

[gallen_53]

Watching the Skycrane part: [i]*****!!! Are they INSANE?!?!?!?!?! They're really going to DO that?!?!?!?!

You are not alone in your assessment of Skycrane. What's really nuts is the future of the Mars Program may depend upon the success of MSL.

[djellison]

Once landed, MSL could just be similarly reeled down a few inches to the surface, cut loose, and then drive away. That way, they still have their immediately rovable rover, without the dangerous in-air suspension.

I think you would end up with a lot of rocket exhaust and high velocity dust impinging on the rover if you did that. The MPL failure was, so they think, a software fault. A line of code would have fixed it - there's little analogous to MSL with the MPL failure really.

And yes - MSL EDL looks crazy. Not as crazy as MPF and MER though.

Doug

[gallen_53]

And yes - MSL EDL looks crazy. Not as crazy as MPF and MER though.

There's a fine line in spacecraft design between aggressive and crazy. MPF and MER were both very aggressive designs. In addition, I would call MER an aggressive but excellent design. Unfortunately, the less said about MSL the better....

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

You are not alone in your assessment of Skycrane. What's really nuts is the future of the Mars Program may depend upon the success of MSL.

I could have covered up the member name of this post and still have guessed that Gary is back

[gallen_53]

I could have covered up the member name of this post and still have guessed that Gary is back

Alex, I never really left. I've been too busy working to do anything other than lurk here.

Have you been involved in the latest Mars Design Reference Mission (DRM)? They tried to suck me into it but the activity is unfunded (that says something). I'd like to be more involved with the DRM but can't justify taking time off from funded work.

[Guest_AlexBlackwell_*]

I'd like to be more involved with the DRM but can't justify taking time off from funded work.

I'm not sure about NASA Ames but I believe JPL has a special financial code (like 999999 or something) for recording work time on "funding: uncertain" projects, aka "The Land of No Return."

[gallen_53]

I'm not sure about NASA Ames but I believe JPL has a special financial code (like 999999 or something) for recording work time on "funding: uncertain" projects, aka "The Land of No Return."

About three years ago I was doing pre-Phase-A interplanetary work almost full time. Now, almost all of that has dried up. What little pre-Phase-A work that I'm still doing is unfunded, e.g. the occasional Venus and Saturn atmospheric probe. We were hoping that the Mars DRM would bring in more money but that was not the case. From my perspective there is nothing in the pipe line.

The last interesting pre-Phase-A work that I was involved in was the "CEMMENT" study. CEMMENT was essentially a Mars Sample Return mission based upon an Ares-V launch vehicle and aerocapture at Mars. The bottom line for CEMMENT was $10 billion dollars riding on a single launch.

I'm not optimistic about what's going to happen at JPL after MSL reaches its logical conclusion. It's like there's a curtain hanging over the end of 2008 and no one can see past it. I guess it all depends on what the next President has in mind for the Space Program and whether there is any money to achieve it.

[Juramike]

Is there any possibility of mounting instrumentation (weather instruments, seismometer, etc.) on the "platform" section of the descent stage without making things too complicated?

Seems reasonable to expect that it could make a fairly soft landing and might make a nice local cross reference to data from the MSL as it wanders around.

(Imagine the PR release as the MSL comes roving into view.)

-Mike

[Jim from NSF.com]

Is there any possibility of mounting instrumentation (weather instruments, seismometer, etc.) on the "platform" section of the descent stage without making things too complicated?

Seems reasonable to expect that it could make a fairly soft landing and might make a nice local cross reference to data from the MSL as it wanders around.

(Imagine the PR release as the MSL comes roving into view.)

-Mike

It isn't going to make a "soft" landing. It will have no power nor telemetry or even a spacecraft computer.

Also, MSL will probably avoid the descent stage since it will be leaking hydrazine

[dvandorn]

Jim, I think the suggestion is that the descent stage *could* be programmed to right itself and lower itself gently. It has to have *some* amount of control function in it, since it has to indepedently maneuver itself away from the rover after it cuts the cables.

I wonder just how much mass might be available for a very small science package and a small transmitter that would relay meteorological and/or seismic data back to the rover, and thence through MRO back to Earth? You'd need some light, simple instruments, a small transmitter and a small antenna. How much would that weigh? And how much mass could MSL stand to be added to the overall package?

I don't think anyone really believes that such a capability will seriously be considered, but it's OK to at least think about it...

-the other Doug

[Jim from NSF.com]

I don't know why the "skycrane" (in basically its same configuration), couldn't just have landing leg extensions (straddling MSL) and actually land (eliminating the MSL hanging in air). Once landed, MSL could just be similarly reeled down a few inches to the surface, cut loose, and then drive away. That way, they still have their immediately rovable rover, without the dangerous in-air suspension.

The "legs" would have to have a shock absorbsion system and able to handle uneven terrain. Also, they would have to be folded and then deployed adding more failure modes.

Basically, the descent stage is landing a few meters above the surface.

It is doing exactly like you said
"Once landed, MSL could just be ....reeled down a few inches to the surface, cut loose, and then drive away"

That's what it is doing, just without a gap between landing and lowering

[hendric]

I don't think anyone really believes that such a capability will seriously be considered, but it's OK to at least think about it...

This is complex enough, adding more weight and requirements is just not going to happen. Maybe the 2nd, 3rd, 4th Mars crane, but not the first. Gotta run before you fly.

If we want a seismometer, the best way to do that is to deploy a network, and that doesn't look likely any time soon with the demise of Netlander. This would be a great Mars Scout mission, if it could be made cheap enough, with just a dead simple imager and seismometers. 4 landers would give good coverage, with the option of putting one or two in "challenging" but beautiful locations.

[Toma B]

Also, MSL will probably avoid the descent stage since it will be leaking hydrazine

Are you sure about that...
As I understand it , skycrane will fly away quite fast up and away after releasing MSL lander ,suddenly lightened by about 700 kg...whooosh!
When it runs out of fuel ,poor thing will have some hight and speed so when it crashes it will burst any hydrazine reservoirs that may contain some residue of fuel...
Why do you think it will be dangerous for MSL lander to go near crashed skycrane even if it had some hydrazine left in its reservoirs as long as it doesn't fire its "laser weapon" on it ? I would like to see that thing on Mars seen through the eyes of MSL...

[Jim from NSF.com]

Any residual propellant or products could contaminate the science instruments

[djellison]

I think the MSL decent stage will be given the same sort of treatment as the MER backshell and chute....keep away. Although Mastcam might get us a nice shot from 100m away

Doug

[mchan]

B)-->

its "laser weapon"
[/quote]
Must have watched too many bad sci-fi movies years ago as one of my first thoughts was Marvin would probably suffer sudden incontinence were he to see MSL drive over the top of a dune towards him.

Curious on the significance of "53" in members tim53 and gallen_53. Maybe it's 42 equivalent in the professional UMSF community.

[dvandorn]

As long as MSL has a laser and not an ACME disintegrating gun, we're OK. We all know that when you pull the trigger of an ACME disintegrating gun -- it disintegrates!



-the other Doug

[Ron Hobbs]

New animations have been posted. They look pretty good.

Link to JPL Release

Ron

[djellison]

Wow - time warp thread. Who would have thought I'd end up at the technical director for that animation :0

Fairly pleased with the end result. And yeah - it has sounds-in-space syndrome, but that part wasn't my doing

[charborob]

Is that Gale crater in the animation? Also, too bad the video doesn't show the skycrane crashing after leaving the rover.

[KrisK]

Fantastic!!! I noticed that just before SA/SPaH was moved Mastcam had been pointed right. I suppose the reason is to make free space for robotic arm, am I correct?

[djellison]

Is that Gale crater in the animation?

No - it's a HiRISE DTM, but not one of the 4 final candidates.

Also, too bad the video doesn't show the skycrane crashing after leaving the rover.

Can you imagine the feedback if we did? A smouldering wreck with fuming hydrazine? A very expensive shot to model and animate as well. Not showing that was a very easy decision.

I suppose the reason is to make free space for robotic arm, am I correct?

Yup - it's to avoid a potential clearance issue when returning the arm back to stow or for sample delivery. Well spotted

[Explorer1]

I do see a dust devil at one point; at least that's what I think it is? Nice touch.

[eoincampbell]

Is a certain direction and distance from Curiosity expected of the landed descent stage, besides "far away" ?

[djellison]

I do see a dust devil at one point; at least that's what I think it is? Nice touch.

No, you don't. The odd gust of dust to keep it from being all too static - but not a DD.

Is a certain direction and distance from Curiosity expected of the landed descent stage, besides "far away" ?

From http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/handle/2014/41629 - Page 12 specifically

CODE

Once the flyaway controller on the DS assumes control, it
first holds the current altitude for 187 msec to allow
sufficient time for the umbilical to be cut.  After the
requisite hold time, the MLEs throttle up and the DS
ascends vertically for a predetermined amount of time.  
Then, the DS begins to execute a turn to approximately 45
pitch.  The DS holds this attitude with the MLEs at 100%
until the fuel depletes.  The hold, ascent, and turn take place
within 2 seconds, and the remaining time is variable
depending on the amount of fuel remaining.  The DS will
then ballistically fall to the surface at a distance of at least
150 m from the Rover

I would expect it to be significantly further than that. Perhaps 10x.

[elakdawalla]

Also, too bad the video doesn't show the skycrane crashing after leaving the rover.

Can you imagine the feedback if we did? A smouldering wreck with fuming hydrazine? A very expensive shot to model and animate as well. Not showing that was a very easy decision.

While I imagine it was an easy decision not to show the thing wrecking in detail, I have to own up to the fact that I wish the shot of it arcing away from the rover ended a little bit later, after it disappeared behind the horizon, followed a second later by a little "pfft" of dust, Wile E. Coyote style

I enjoyed the lovingly detailed shot of the MarsDial and the rover tai chi!

[eoincampbell]

Cheers Doug, thanks for the link, lots of Curious goodness in that pdf !

[djellison]

I have to own up to the fact that I wish the shot of it arcing away from the rover ended a little bit later, after it disappeared behind the horizon, followed a second later by a little "pfft" of dust, Wile E. Coyote style

So do I

When it premiered infront of 400 members of the MSL project - that moment got a brilliant reaction - exactly the same reaction as you could hear in the background audio of the Mars Odyssey launch when a forward looking rocket-cam cut out the very second the upper stage was due to ignite after 3rd stage sep.

[Explorer1]

Well, MSL could do a nice hardware survey like with Oppy's heatshield (if it's not too long a detour of time and distance from the planned science of course). Though ground conditions will prove whether its even possible in the first place.

[djellison]

Not of the descent stage. It will have leaked hydrazine and other ugly compounds after crashing. I would expect them to give it an exceptionally wide berth.

Heatshield, sure.
Backshell and Parachute - from a distance >> the length of all the lines and the chute.
Six impact craters from ballast ejected before 'chute deployment - why not.

But not the descent stage.

[tbruckner]

Very nice animation. One question: shortly before atmospheric entry there are two little L-shaped blocks separating from the capsule. What's that?

[Astro0]

From the document posted by djellison above... page 4.

...Approximately 5 minutes before entry interface, two external cruise balance masses are jettisoned to create an offset center of gravity...

...In contrast to the spin stabilized entries of MER and Mars Pathfinder (MPF), MSL utilizes an offset center of mass to create a nominal 18degree angle of attack through peak heating and dynamic pressure, increasing to a 20degree angle of attack just prior to parachute deployment. This angle of attack generates lift which is used to reduce the landing error ellipse size and increase the parachute deploy altitude.

Lots more exciting facts to be found in that document

[nprev]

VERY nice animation, Doug. Kay & I just watched it utterly spellbound; well done!

[Guest_Oersted_*]

I remember discussing the fate of the skycrane with MarsEngineer on this forum a good while ago, and to my recollection he said something like that, sure, if they had time for it they might try to program a soft landing into it... Not a priority though, and since it doesn't really serve a purpose, apart from pollution mitigation, it probably wont happen. Would be neat if they tried though.

Love the animation! The only things I didn't quite like were the flyby sounds in space (I can live with the mechanical sounds and the thruster ones, since those events actually transmit sound through the structure of the spacecraft), the lack of an ionized trail through the atmosphere and the somewhat tinny sound of the skycrane rockets. I think it will be a good deal more deep and throaty in reality. The rest of the animation is top notch and you even showed us parachute deploy, which was something Maas edited out very niftily for the MER edl animation....