Hayabusa Post-Landing & Science Results Options

[nprev]

The capsule began its return to Japan a few moments ago as I write this. Seems like a good time to start a new topic for the much-anticipated final results of this epic mission.

[Hungry4info]

Here's for hoping the capsule does indeed contain a piece of Itokawa!

[nprev]

Perhaps this is unduly optimistic, but I think that it's relatively hard for it not to have at least a trace of dust inside at some point in the ingestion path.

Haven't seen any discussion about or references to the possible electrostatic condition of the spacecraft with respect to Itokawa but there must have been some potential, of course, and probably a bit of dust was raised during the landings.

[eoincampbell]

The team are confident. Is that the end of the sampling horn(and the craft) had a slight motion while parked or just the disturbance from the landing impact?

[pandaneko]

Here's for hoping the capsule does indeed contain a piece of Itokawa!

The capsule was X-rayed today with a resolution of 1 mm. This is from the local press here. Unfortunately, there was no grain of that size. However, the lid had been found to be frmly closed.

Oh well, we have got NASA's going out in November this year. I dearly hope that will succeed this time.

Pandaneko

[ElkGroveDan]

Do you have a link for that information Pandaneko?

[djellison]

Plus, What's the November reference? The EPOXI Hartley 2 flyby?

[pandaneko]

Do you have a link for that information Pandaneko?

No, I do not. It was reported in the Asahi Simbun (newspaper) yesterday. There was an additional comment there (which I did not translate), I think, from somebody within JAXA, that they had not expected to find such large grains to be there in the first place.

They were apparently looking for something like 0.5 mm grains to be found in the capsule. Are not they too small for analysis? The X-ray resolution did not reach that scale and so we will have to see what they may do next.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Plus, What's the November reference? The EPOXI Hartley 2 flyby?

Here, I do not, either. It is information I found during the last one month in search for more info about Hayabusa, somewhere out on the net that NASA was going to launch a SRM in November this year. I was excited when I saw it. I hope that they will!

By the way, what do you guys think? I have since found some more stories about the last stage of Hayabusa, from people who was assinged to take the last Earth photo, for instance and other people, too, and I found them interesting and am willing to translate.

However, I am not exactly sure if I should do it over here at this forum or inside the previous long viewing forum.

I mus hasten to add that I am not 100% sure if I will be able to find them again. I think they were somewhere inside JAXA site.

Pandaneko

[nprev]

Pandaneko, I'm not aware of any approved NASA sample return missions. Your source may have been referring to the OSIRIS-REX proposal, which is one of three finalists for the next New Frontiers mission.

I'm not sure when the final selection will be made, but even if it makes the cut I doubt it will fly much before 2014 or so.

EDIT: Whups. I should read the whole article before posting. The final selection will be made in mid-2011, and the chosen project has to launch by 30 Dec 2018.

EDIT2: This English article (dated 19 Jun) from Asahi Shimbun does mention that JAXA was going to X-ray the capsule to 'look for internal damage'. Might be a translation difficulty, or the <1 mm constraint on upper particle size might have been an ancilliary finding.

[pandaneko]

Pandaneko, I'm not aware of any approved NASA sample return missions. Your source may have been referring to the OSIRIS-REX proposal, which is one of three finalists for the next New Frontiers mission.

I'm not sure when the final selection will be made, but even if it makes the cut I doubt it will fly much before 2014 or so.

EDIT: Whups. I should read the whole article before posting. The final selection will be made in mid-2011, and the chosen project has to launch by 30 Dec 2018.

EDIT2: This English article (dated 19 Jun) from Asahi Shimbun does mention that JAXA was going to X-ray the capsule to 'look for internal damage'. Might be a translation difficulty, or the <1 mm constraint on upper particle size might have been an ancilliary finding.

I feel very sad to know that NASA may not make it while I am alive..., if this were right.

Anyway, let your wife see what follows.

http://www.asahi.com/special/space/TKY201006180486.html

I did try to find the physical newspaper with that article, but I could not find it. My wife might have disposed of it with other papers by now. So, I tried the Asahi website.

It does say what I posted, but I cannnot find JAXA comments with it. Perhaps, web versions may be shortened?

What I think happened may be something like this. They wanted to check out on the damage, as soon as possible, that might have been done to the capsule and that probably did not need high resolution.

And yet, they at the same time wanted to have a quick look in with that low resolution X-ray (I would do that!) before full investigation.

Liquid washing might be the most conclusive option..., not sure...

Pandaneko

[djellison]

Pandaneko, I'm not aware of any approved NASA sample return missions.

That's because right now, there isn't one. I think the November reference may well have been a lost-in-translation cross-over between proposed missions, and the EPOXI flyby.

[nprev]

Here's a Bing translation of the Ashai article you linked to, Pandaneko:

"Capsule from asteroid "Itokawa" spacecraft "Peregrine" brought to Earth, including big sand １ mm or more is that they are not 18, was confirmed. Aerospace development agency but x-ray study internal situation. Be included in such as １ mm following dust have been left yet.
　Japan Agency facilities located in Tokyo, Chofu City carried capsules taken inside the x-ray. Confirmed that vessel to reclaim Itokawa sand lid is firmly closed. It is said that there was no such sand particles on the other hand, resolution photos of １ mm to change such as.
　Was the plan to collect debris scattered and fired small bullet when you land on Itokawa Hayabusa,. That might include dust soared in the shock of landing at the bullet firing failed, but entered the capsule and expectations."


My wife's interpretation was that the X-rays should have been able to resolve any particles larger than 1 mm. Also, it's confirmed that the sampling pellet did not fire.

[vjkane]

Here is a link to the late Bruce Moomaw's description of the proposed OSIRIS-ReX mission OSIRIS-REx summary

[nprev]

Short Aviation Week article today. Highlight: It may take up to six months to determine if the capsule contains any material from Itokawa.

[pandaneko]

Short Aviation Week article today. Highlight: It may take up to six months to determine if the capsule contains any material from Itokawa.

The Asahi Shimun newspaper carried an article today. Gists of what it said are as follows.

1. JAXA had placed equal priorities on finding the capsule and the heat shield.
2. Neither NASA nor ESA had been willing to discuss details of heat shields for potential millitary uses.
3. The capsule was found 1.1 km away from the targeted landing position and the heat shield 5 km away from it.

4. The ablator material was found to have been evenly melted and enough thickess of it still existed.
5. Initial investigation did not find partciles larger than 1 mm, and their minimum expectation is 0.003 mm.
6. Innner container (sampling container) was extracted and showered by shots of dry ice and then plasma cleaned so that a thin layer was removed.

7. The inner container will be brought into a clean room and tilted so that a rubber spatuler can scrape out (seems rather primitive to me) what may be inside. What are found will be treated with a thin needle with static electricity under microscope.
8. If there are lots of them then they will know immediately that they are from Itokawa. However, if there are only a few,
9. It will take up to 6 months to determine that they are not of Earth origin.

10. Samples, if any are found, will be distributed to 10 universities across the world.


This last one, it differes from the info I got earlier. Mt earlier info said "best proposals from worldover". Who is telling the truth...

Pandaneko

[djellison]

Points 2 is heading toward the area of rule 1.2. Point 10 doesn't contradict the previous statement. You can send samples to leading research institutions around the world writing the best proposals, and 10 best proposals can get samples.

Rule 1.2 is probably worth reading.

[ilbasso]

Point 3, the distance from target, is absolutely incredible. We have come a loooooong way from the 1960's, when some manned spacecraft, coming down from only 100 miles up, were hundreds of miles off target. Even a few days before re-entry of Hayabusa, I wasn't 100% comfortable that she would make it into the re-entry corridor. It's amazing enough that she found her way back to Earth, even more astounding that she landed in her nest!

[nprev]

Well said. The landing precision is especially impressive considering that the spacecraft's reaction control system was inoperative...just incredible, really.

[pandaneko]

Points 2 is heading toward the area of rule 1.2. Point 10 doesn't contradict the previous statement. You can send samples to leading research institutions around the world writing the best proposals, and 10 best proposals can get samples.

Rule 1.2 is probably worth reading.

Dear Administrater

I offer my sincere apologies. I was not aware of those rules. I should have! However, I did read them all, in fact, twice over and am in complete agreenment with what I read. I will abide by them with my future postings.

However, I am feeling a little uneasy about politics, rule 1.2. If I myself were trying to talk politics as my personal opinion I should be immediately given a red card. I know that.

However, I was simply translating an openly available newspaper article, not my opinion, is that why you say "approaching"? I should think so. In any case I will be extremely careful in future. Again, with my sincere apologies.

Pandaneko

[ElkGroveDan]

You're OK pandaneko.

To clarify, the ban on politics is not limited to just your opinion but anything that moves the discussion in that direction. I'm sure you can see why. Someone else may jump in with a response and then the discussion starts down the wrong road.

Thanks again for all of your reports from Japan and translations.

[pandaneko]

Dear administrators

Thanks, I am relieved and I will be careful. You must be leading very busy lives, watching over all those postings...

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

The Asahi Shimun newspaper carried an article today. Gists of what it said are as follows.

6. Innner container (sampling container) was extracted and showered by shots of dry ice and then plasma cleaned so that a thin outer layer was removed.

7. The inner container will be brought into a clean room and tilted so that a rubber spatuler can scrape out (seems rather primitive to me) what may be inside. What are found will be treated with a thin needle with static electricity under microscope.

Pandaneko

I have had a look at JAXA English web pages prior to this posting and there is not this one yet carried.

The inner container was being opened today (24 June, JST) at ISAS in the presence of NASA and other overseas scientists. It will take one week to find out what may be inside the container.

I cannot wait to hear what they have to say! What was it like when the Earth was born! [please review section 1.3 - Admin ]

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

I cannot wait to hear what they have to say! What was it like when the Earth was born! [please review section 1.3 - Admin ]

Pandaneko

OK, understood, reference to that sort of things either, not even as a joke. It is a bit difficult for me to make judgements about what I could post now as I would have thought that everybody would think that references to organic materials can easily lead to such jokes. My strong impression is that you wanted to further clarify to me just how rules are meant to be used for judgements in the strictest sense.

(I am not supposed to use such a word, here even in response, that is my understanding...). However, seriously, I think your attitude must be absolutely right, after I have given my very deepest thought to this reason. That is, logically, so, apologies once again!

There was a reference to organic materials in the same article I quoted and I must admit that it is my ignorance about such materials. I just did not think that there could possibly be organic materials on such a tiny body like Itokawa in near vacuum out in deep space in such cold temperatures.

That is why I just ignored to translate that bit, perhaps I should have ...

I should imagine, though, that a lot of other lay people may have such an association and connection, on hearing about the possibility of organic materials, i.e. commmon viewers to your forum. And, they may well like light jokes..., occasionally, am not sure...

To me, being a physicist, organic materials simply means things like beef stake, eggs, fish and the like!

I also think in terms of the real possibility of my joke sparkling off an endless discussions of the sort you fear. Given the seriousness of the forum I myself would think that there is very little chance. However, you must have had your own past dealings of that sort and I respect your ultimate judgement.

Anyway, I am likely to make similar mistakes in future. So, what follows is my last contribution and I hope that you will keep me as a watching member, if you could, please? If not, I will not be complaining, though. I came here just accidentally, after all...

Today's Asahi Shimbun newspaper here, with local circulation of about 8 million, I believe (the largest daily circulation here is by another local newspaper group and it is 15 million, I think) carried an artcicle about the sample container (25 June, JST).

The container did have a very small amount of gas in it and it was recovered. As far as I have checked out so far, there is no reporting about it yet on JAXA pages, either in Japanese or English.

They think that most of it is of Earth origin upon landing and constituents are yet unknown. However, there is a possibility that some portion of it may have come from Itokawa grains and they are very carefully checking the gas.

Pandaneko

[Juramike]

...organic materials on such a tiny body like Itokawa in near vacuum out in deep space in such cold temperatures.

The definition of "organic molecules" are molecules with covalent bonds with carbon-carbon or carbon-nitrogen or carbon-hydrogen bonds.
(see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound</a>)

This definition excludes things like: CO, CO2, carbonate (anion), -CN (anion). These are all considered inorganic.

Small organics include little things like: H2CO, CH4, and HCN. I'd also throw in that reactive intermediates such as: .C2. (diradical), .:CH (radical carbene), :CH2 (carbene) and .CH3 (radical) are all organic and will undergo organic reactions.

[Bonus trivia: Things with organic bonds but covalently bound to a metal center are considered organometallic. Most of the chemistry fun these undergo is based on the properties of the metal center. An example is ferrocene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocene]

It is really important to keep in mind that most organic molecules can be easily accessed by non-biotic organic chemistry. (Biochemistry is a subset of organic chemistry.)

****

There was a very recent discovery of a "pretty complex" organic molecule in deep space - anthracene. Check out:
http://www.physorg.com/news196334906.html

Finding organics on Itokawa is not weird at all, but which compounds and how much will give interesting information on the chemistry of asteroids, solar system objects, and molecular exchanges with deep space. (Isotope ratios will be very useful.)
It will be exciting to see the analysis results. Keep us posted!

[Hungry4info]

To me, being a physicist, organic materials simply means things like beef stake, eggs, fish and the like!

Organic materials in this case would mean carbon-carrying compounds. Methane, ethane, acetylene, etc. Pretty much all the interesting stuff at Titan.

[pandaneko]

You're OK pandaneko.

To clarify, the ban on politics is not limited to just your opinion but anything that moves the discussion in that direction. I'm sure you can see why. Someone else may jump in with a response and then the discussion starts down the wrong road.

Thanks again for all of your reports from Japan and translations.

Thanks once again, and I am choosing my wordings carefully here as best as I could, as I do not seem to have a means of direct response except using this exchange. I may have done it accidentally in the recent past, but I seem unable to repeat it, somehow...

No!, I was not! Not at all. On the contrary I was just simply blaming myself about the slip of my pen and tongue about it and at the same time regretting my stupidity.

Rules are rules to be adhered to and I clearly violated them without thinking too much about that particular phrase, without thinking about its possible repercussions.

The only way I thought I could make sure that it will not happen again was that I should not to take up my pen again in the first place, but, yes, I will if I get new useful info from the local press. JAXA pages seem to lag by up to a week or longer for the latest findings. They must be very busy. All my sympahy goes to them!

Again, with my deepest apologies for the confusion I must have caused to the regular running of the forum.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

It will be exciting to see the analysis results. Keep us posted!

A little more detailed info about the gas detection is as follows. This is from another local newspaper, Mainichi, date, am not sure, but after detection, of course.

The gas was found on 22 June during the preparatory opening of the container's outershell and it was recovered. The container is made up of inner and outer cylinders, diam. 5 cm and height 6 cm.

The tube had been designed to be exposed directly to vacuum while travelling in deep space and there are apparently 3 possibilities about the gas.

1. Itokawa origin, 2. air on landing, 3. the gas coming from resins and metals of the spacecraft itself

From now on the inner tube will be disassembled carefully and it is expected to be able to observe the inside some time during early part of July.

Even if something is found in there the possibility still remains of it being of Earth origin and careful analysis will be undertaken over the following few months.

What follows is the URL of the analysis team working on it.

http://mainichi.jp/select/science/news/ima...4000p_size6.jpg

Pandaneko

Reason for edit: Inserted pandanenko's own correction, for clarity

[pandaneko]

What follows is based on my Google alert and it has picked up a rather old newspaper article dated 24 June. I must say I am confused a little about all these newspaper reportings. Dates of finding the gas are different, one says 22 June and others say 24 June...

Anyway, this particular article says that it will take about a week (from 24 June) before the inside of the sample tube can be seen and if grains are found, then analysis will start in August. (Why not during July?)

Today is 4 July, but there has not been any news about anything as far as I am aware. Perhaps they have found something?, and not wanting to make a firm announcement just yet? I am totally in the dark...

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Today is 4 July, but there has not been any news about anything as far as I am aware. Perhaps they have found something?, and not wanting to make a firm announcement just yet? I am totally in the dark...

Pandaneko

Today's Asahi Shimbun newspaper here says that Hayabusa sample cannister was found to have grains in it. They are going to examine them one by one under microscope.

No more details available yet.

Pandaneko

[brellis]

That's very exciting news! thanks pandaneko. By the way, IIRC neko means "cat", so does that make you Panda Cat?

[pandaneko]

That's very exciting news! thanks pandaneko. By the way, IIRC neko means "cat", so does that make you Panda Cat?

Yes, it does and I am a cat fanatic and I had one looking just like that.

Pandaneko

[nprev]

Wow!!! Exciting news indeed; thanks very much, Pandaneko!!!

[pandaneko]

Apparently, initial measures they are taking are isotopic and crystalline structural analys for distinguishing them.

Pandaneko

[ElkGroveDan]

If this turns out to be true and those are asteroid grains and not part of the capsule or a technician's fingernail, then this will be a most amazing end to the most amazing journey that I have ever followed.

[nprev]

We can only hope. "Epic" is the only word, really.

[tasp]

Amazing news!

Hayabusa, the little spacecraft that could, and DID!

I really appreciate the excellent updates we are getting here. Front row seat for a very wonderful mission.


Did anyone see the capsule recovery picture in Aviation Week and Space Technology? The technician had quite a bit of protective gear on to safe the pyros. Incredible accuracy in the landing, I am not sure I could have found that little capsule in my own yard, let alone the wilds of Australia!

(yeah, we are having a wet year and I am behind on my mowing)

[pandaneko]

I had a quick look at JAXA web pages, no, none ablout this and the last update is still 24 June.

Since there are two NASA scientists and one Australian scientist at ISAS at the moment they must have sent mails to respective organisations and it might be quicker to find something there.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

I had a quick look at all other major newspapers and they all carry this story.

One thing that annoyed me was in the Yomiuri Shimbun article about it. It said that the cannister is thought to have hundreds of Earth origin particles in the first place. How then the Asahi and others carry such stories?

Are the grains different at a glance? Did they check the inside of the cannister before launch for distinguishing them from possible new comers?

Still, Asahi carried this news on their front page, so there must be something...

Pandaneko

[JimOberg]

Post moved from Hayabusa Return to Earth thread - Admin

Jiji: Particles Found From Japanese Asteroid Probe Capsule

Tokyo Jiji Press in English 0401 GMT 05 July 2010

Tokyo, July 5 (Jiji Press) -- Japan's space agency said Monday it has found particles inside the capsule that the unmanned spacecraft Hayabusa brought back after a journey to the asteroid Itokawa.

The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, better known as JAXA, made the confirmation by optical microscopy. The particles could be the first samples brought back to Earth from an asteroid.

JAXA said it will analyze elements constituting the particles to see if they are from Itokawa or Earth. Officials said it is possible the particles may be those that had made their way into the capsule before Hayabusa was launched.

Hayabusa returned to Earth on June 13 Japan time after seven years of voyage.

Its body burned up during its reentry into the atmosphere but the capsule safely landed on the desert in southern Australia.

The capsule was later recovered and sent to Japan. On June 24, JAXA stared work to open the capsule at its special facility in Sagamihara, Kanagawa Prefecture, eastern Japan.

[pandaneko]

One thing that annoyed me was in the Yomiuri Shimbun article about it. It said that the cannister is thought to have hundreds of Earth origin particles in the first place. How then the Asahi and others carry such stories?


Pandaneko

I have had another look at this morning's Asahi newspaper. It does not say at all that they found "hundreds of grains". In fact, the whole thing seems contradictory given my earlier findings.

1. Prof M Yoshikawa of ISAS said that if there are many grains found in the cannister they will immediately know that they are of Itokawa origin.

2. If as Yomiuri says "hundreds of Earth grains" are supposed be be in there in the first place they would have found them on inspection and Prof Yoshikawa would have announced that they are from Itokawa despite the fact that they are from Earth.

3. Asahi said that they found a very small number of very small grains.

So, my impression is that they did find a small number of suspicious grains, after all. That is my guess. After all, they must have baked it and rinsed with highly volatile liquid. There cannot possibly be hundreds of grains still left in it before launch...

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

3. Asahi Shimbun newspaper said that they found a very small number of very small grains.

Pandaneko

I have had a look at an article carried by the Nihon Keizai Shimbun about grains found. It is an equivalent to the Financial Times in the UK. It does mention the possibility of co-existing grains, but it does not mention "hundreds of grains" found in there.

What it said is that the found grains are individually transfered into separate bottles, by a needle as thin as those used for inserting genes into biological cells, for better analysis.

It says that the analysis will take more than a month. I hope that my continued postings will not get a red card one of these days. If I am putting up too much by now I would like to be given a warning...

Pandaneko

[Hungry4info]

pandaneko, you're doing fine.

In fact, thank you sooo very much for keeping us informed. I, and surely others, appreciate your efforts here.

[ustrax]

man...if this is true the question here is...who's going to have Hayabusa's role in the epic?

[pandaneko]

I am a bit more upset. Even more alarming news, this time from NHK, which is something like BBC in the UK.

There are two bits of information.

1. Date and timing: 06:02 local 5 July

Not just hundreds but up to 10,000 Earth grains may have resided in the cannister in the first place before launch, given the storage condition of the capsule before launch! (How silly of them!)

Still, no mention of 10,000 found in there.

2. Date and timing: 19:15 local 5 July

They found 2 grains of about 1/100 mm in size on the inside surface of the cannister and they were recovered.

I am no longer sure what is going on...

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

2. Date and timing: 19:15 local 5 July

They found 2 grains of about 1/100 mm in size on the inside surface of the cannister and they were recovered.

Pandaneko

Something I neglected, in my haste to translate the main (?) points about the inside surface is that they also found a dozen 1 mm sized grains on the outer surface of the cannister. They were even visible by naked eyes.

I just wonder where they came from... Woomera?

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Something I neglected, in my haste to translate the main (?) points about the inside surface is that they also found a dozen 1 mm sized grains on the outer surface of the cannister. They were even visible by naked eyes.

I just wonder where they came from... Woomera?

Pandaneko

Here again, I am totally at a loss. My understanding is that the cannister, at least the outer cannister surface was bombarded with dry ice particles and then plasma treated to remove its thin outer layer.

My assumption then was that the inner tube was in tact. So, why did they find visible particles on the outer skin of the inner tube? Can anybody help?

Pandaneko

[ElkGroveDan]

10,000 Earth grains may have resided in the cannister in the first place before launch, given the storage condition of the capsule before launch! (How silly of them!)

So I am wondering WHERE they stored it. Outside the JAXA building in the flower beds? The beach? I am amazed that they didn't do a microscope analysis like the one planned for post-flight, prior to launch!

[Stu]

Sorry, my fault; it rolled under my sofa while I was looking after it. I thought I'd got it clean, but apparently not...

[ElkGroveDan]

The part where they lost the lid and decided to cover it with duct tape like you do when you lose the battery cover to your TV remote control probably had something to do with it.

[eoincampbell]

I hope we can get an official statement soon... the suspense is driving me "super-nuts"....

[pandaneko]

I hope we can get an official statement soon... the suspense is driving me "super-nuts"....

Did we know that there were two chambers inside the cannister? I am angry the way they provide info only bit by bit.

Anyway, this morning's Asahi Shimbun newspaper carried another article about the grains, even with a photo with the needle and the grain (I looked for the photo link, but I could not get it anywhere, even with other newspapers).

It said basically the same thing, except the existence of two chambers. So far, only one of them has been opened and "so far, two 0.01 mm size grains have been picked up". This "so far" may mean some more grains. That was the nuance of the article.

Those found on the outer skin are supposed be of Earth origin.

In any event Prof Kawaguchi said he was glad the cannister was not empty. I am not happy the way info is provided. I have not yet checked JAXA pages.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

I hope we can get an official statement soon... the suspense is driving me "super-nuts"....

A little more information.

1. JAXA Japanese website now carries an announcement about grain discovery, but it is so short and offers very little beyond newspaper reports. No info yet on English page site.

2. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/zoom/20100705-OYT9I00953.htm

This is the photo from Nihon Keizai newspaper. Dark line is the needle shadow.

3. The same newspaper quoted Prof Kawaguchi's comment and it says he thinks those found on the outer skin (a dozen or so larger grains visible to naked eyes) and inside have equal probability of coming from Itokawa.

I am utterly confused now. Only yesterday newspaper reports were saying that the larger ones are supposed to be of Earth origin...

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

2. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/zoom/20100705-OYT9I00953.htm

This is the photo from Nihon Keizai newspaper. Dark line is the needle shadow.

Admin, please delete this portion for copyright reasons.

Pandaneko

[nprev]

Pandaneko, don't be too distressed. In English-speaking countries at least, we're quite used to media confusion & inaccuracy in scientific matters. (This appears to be rather common in other non-English Western countries as well from what I gather).

It's therefore perhaps not too surprising that you may be seeing something similar in the mass Japanese media outlets concerning Hayabusa's findings.

Personally, I would have been surprised if the researchers had assumed that all exterior particles (within the reentry capsule but outside the sample container) were of terrestrial origin. After prolonged contact with Itokawa, it seems quite possible that a few dust particles from the asteroid might adhere to the capsule.

[ElkGroveDan]

Let's not forget that a significant number of Itokawa particles surely rained down over Australia as Hayabusa burned up. Too bad we couldn't have captured the entire craft. But I'll still stand up and cheer for one small grain.

[pandaneko]

Personally, I would have been surprised if the researchers had assumed that all exterior particles (within the reentry capsule but outside the sample container) were of terrestrial origin. After prolonged contact with Itokawa, it seems quite possible that a few dust particles from the asteroid might adhere to the capsule.

I quite agree with you, actually. My gut feeling now is that all of the grains so far found are from Itokawa, because

1. Post-landing cleaning of the cannister, I cannot imagine that they did not do similar cleaning before launch.

2. The capsule came down by parachute. It must have been a gentle landing.

3. All newspaper reports so far say that all the sealings were found closed when the whole thing was brought into the curation room. How can Earth origin particles, no matter how small, could have got into the sealed system.

How exactly sealed, I do not know, of course. I had not even thought about the mechanism because I never thought it will come back.

4. I was not there to witness the landing on Itokawa, but from the CG I did see an extremely violent reverse shower due to retro firing and the escape velocity out there must be extremely small. On Earth, can you imagine 1 mm size particles, somehow, wiggling into the sealed system against gravity?

5. Can you also imagine that the team, when assembling the capsule, did not notice naked-eye visible grains on the outer surface of the inner tube? It is only a small tube, after all. And, you knew how small Itokawa grains could be when captured into the inner tube.

Pandaneko

[Leither]

BBC web page now showing JAXA picture of particles inside the container.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_env...nt/10519895.stm

No doubt they are being ultra cautious as to their origin, but.......

[pandaneko]

Pandaneko, don't be too distressed. In English-speaking countries at least, we're quite used to media confusion & inaccuracy in scientific matters. (This appears to be rather common in other non-English Western countries as well from what I gather).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB43JKnTo8Y

Above is the link to a press conference that took place on 5 July. No sound from the panell.

The announcer here is saying two things.

1. 0.01 mm grains were found inside the tube.

2. 1 mm size grains, about a dozen of them, were found on the outside of the inner tube.

3. One of the captions says that serious investigations will start from end of September.

By the way, other earlier newspaper reports said that investigations ( and in fact sample distribution) will start earlier, in August.

At this conference they were apparently saying that 1 mm grains are thought to have come from Earth. However, that was yesterday (5 July), and between this press briefing and this morning (6 July) Prof Kawaguchi must have mentioned to Nihon Keizai Shimbun newspaper, at least, that

he thinks that both inner and outter grains have equal probability of originating from Itokawa. That is my logical thinking by the look of the article carried by the same newspaper this morning (6 July).

Why prof Kawaguchi did not mention it at this briefing in the first place, I do not know. Perhaps, other press people except Nihon Keizai had left the venue earlier than Nihon Keizai reporters?

I really wish that they would send one of the 1 mm grains to NASA and see what they have to say before they go into summer vacation period...

Pandaneko

[elakdawalla]

Here's the [Google translated] link to the source of those images on the JAXA website: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/tra...cneaWy8vvX1fi1Q

[MahFL]

Those grains look too big to have been missed before launch, most of the capsule appears to be squeaky clean, with a few dust grains in there collected as it landed, well lets hope for the best.

[ElkGroveDan]

I agree. I am growing optimistic now.

[pandaneko]

Those grains look too big to have been missed before launch,

My association with ISAS profs has been long. What they unanimously told me is this. What one space and astronomy researcher can do during his research life time, at the maximum, is two projects, or even less, given the conception period and subsequent development stages.

I have known a few people (both Japanese and overseas on collaboratibve projects) whose projects were simply busted, either from mulfunctioning boosters, or subsequent failures.

That is why people take utmost care before launch. Therefore, I do not believe for a moment that there were those Earth originated grains before launch on the cannister.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Futher reporting from the Mainichi newspaper here, dated 18:54 local 7 July.

Apparently, a very large number of grains, much smaller than those (0.01 mm) earlier reported about were found inside the inner tube surface.

They apparently scraped the inner surface of the inner tube with a spatuler and found those. No more details are available, just yet.

Pandaneko

[Stu]

Sorry, for a moment there I actually thought you said that the techs and scientists involved in this amazing mission, involving mega hi-tech space hardware and minute quantities of literally priceless proto-planetary material, "scraped the inner surface of the inner tube with a spatula".

[pandaneko]

"scraped the inner surface of the inner tube with a spatula".

I quite agree with you here. But, that is what the newspaer said and even my earlier posting about the recovery process expected also mentioned it, in fact with my own comment at that time "how primitive it is!". I think that was a few weeks back now, after landing, of course.

However, at that time I also mentioned liquid washing at the same time for recovery of remaining grains not recovered by the spatula.

It must be a spatula of special type? I do not know.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Other newspapers are starting to carry similar stories about the large number of grains newly found inside the inner tube.

The Yomiuri newspaper, for instance, says that the size of the newly found grains is from 0.01 mm down to 0.001 mm. There are apparently lots of them. It also said that they used a special spatula for the recovery of these newly found grains.

However, it also said that they think that there were a large number of Earth origin grains already resident in the first place inside the tube.

They failed to purge them before launch?, why? I am utterly at a loss.

Pandaneko

[amezz]

Other newspapers...

Dear Pandaneko I'll very appreciate direct urls to quoted newspapers here

thanks, Andrey

[elakdawalla]

One assumes it was a very special spatula. Presumably they bought it here.

[ElkGroveDan]

"scraped the inner surface of the inner tube with a spatula".

This just in: Japanese Scientists have announced that the asteroid Itokawa is made of mint frosting.

[pandaneko]

Dear Pandaneko I'll very appreciate direct urls to quoted newspapers here

thanks, Andrey

Dear Andrey

What I have been quoting from are all in Japanese. Would those URLs helP? For instance, here below is the Yomiuri's URL.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/science/news/2010....htm?from=main1

Please let me know what you think. We can work out solutions, perhaps?

Pandaneko

[AndyG]

One assumes it was a very special spatula. Presumably they bought it here.

There's nowhere else I'd go for mine.

Andy

(Now, how to get Conan the Librarian into a thread??)

Don't bother ... Doug

[djellison]

Who wrote 'Don't bother ... Doug'

It sure as he'll wasn't me.

[tasp]

IIRC, during daylight hours on the earth's moon there is a phenomena that levitates dust (is there a thread here somewhere about it?). Are these Itakowa particles in the same size range and perhaps a similar phenomena got them into the collection device even though the pyro thing did not fire ?

[Hungry4info]

Good question. IIRC, the haze on the moon isn't really visible unless you're coming around the terminator from the night side looking toward the day side (or on the night side near the terminator like that one Surveyor). I don't think Hayabusa ever got to this orientation, so we may not have any evidence for such things.

Another thing to consider, would the dust achieve escape velocity? Itokawa may have lost the dust with which it did that long ago. What is left may only be small rocks and pebbles that were heavy enough not to levitate (and/or leave). IIRC, the Musea Sea up closed showed more a collection of pebbles than a pure fine sand.

[Ipparchus]

I saw that photo of the sample container and I can`t understand something... They said they found, at first, only 2 minute dust particles, but this photo shows many much larger dust grains(?). Are they really dust grains or something else? Please explain me, because I`m a little confused...

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[MaDeR]

Nothing like suspense IN SPACE! Do these grains are really from Itokawa? Or Itokawa is made of Australia? Inquiring mind want to know!

[Leither]

Other newspapers are starting to carry similar stories about the large number of grains newly found inside the inner tube.

I do hope this is correct! The sample return canister consists of two compartments, one for each landing attempt, with the compartments being sealed from each other by a cylindrical sleeve valve.

I think the recently released picture shows the top outer surface of the canister sitting embedded in the return capsule, the visible particles being the 10 or so large particles they found on the outside of the canister.

What I am hoping is that the two 0.01mm grains were found in the first of the two compartments (the one open on the first/aborted landing attempt) and that the large number of newly found grains comes from the second compartment (which would be the one open during) the 30 min landing. If the newly found grains come from the first compartment...I dare to think what they’ll find in the second one!!

I’m now growing more optimistic....lets hope for the best.

[mars loon]

The finding of dust inside is very exciting and a hopeful sign. But we'll have to await detailed scientific analysis to determine their origin. A great achievement whatever the outcome.

for anyone interested; here are my articles posted at Spaceref on the dust finding and landing

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1412

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1402

ken

homepage

[pandaneko]

According to today's Asahi Shimbun newspaper (8 July) the spatula in question is made of fluorine resin.

Pandaneko

[Stu]

Pandanenko,

Just wanted to say thanks for the excellent job you're doing, keeping all of us here updated with Hayabusa's rather confusing developments. You're doing a cracking job. We probably wouldn't have anything much to go on if it wasn't for you, so thanks.

[eoincampbell]

Pandaneko has provided a wonderfully gripping tale of anxiety and hope...
thank you so much...

[brellis]

thanks for everything you're doing to help, Panda Cat!

[amezz]

...quoting from are all in Japanese. Would those URLs helP?

Certainly, I read by Google + general imagination

[pandaneko]

I am feeling duty bound to share the exitement, really, because JAXA web pages tend to be so slow in updates. I am well aware that there are people out there who want to have minute to minute information.

I will be replying to Andrey (?) from Russia separately with direct links to Japanese newspapers carried in English. I had never thought about them. Other people from now on can refer to them and I will no longer need to translate.

They will be the Japan Times, the Asahi Evening News, and a few others, I think.　Anyway, there is a bit more news that I found tofday (8 July). I do not remember where from. It was picked up my Google setup.

JAXA found yet more than 100 of 10 micron size grains inside the chamber A, which was kept open for the second landing. At least a few of them are being sent out to NASA right now, and one each to other academic institutions.

All other major Japanese newspapers today carried similar stories about these newly found 100 or so grains. From what they say I am inclined to think at least some people within JAXA now think that some of them did come from Itokawa.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

What I am hoping is that the two 0.01mm grains were found in the first of the two compartments (the one open on the first/aborted landing attempt) and that the large number of newly found grains comes from the second compartment (which would be the one open during) the 30 min landing.
I’m now growing more optimistic....lets hope for the best.

Apparently, it is not true. 0.01 mm grains were found in the second chamber. Those larger ones were not found in the chamber at all, but outside them.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

I saw that photo of the sample container and I can`t understand something... They said they found, at first, only 2 minute dust particles, but this photo shows many much larger dust grains(?). Are they really dust grains or something else? Please explain me, because I`m a little confused...

I agree with you entirely. There is something I have been having a nagging thought about. If I remember rightly JAXA said that there no grains larger than 1 mm in size from their X-ray initial analysis.

That was the first news I came across in the Asahi Shimbun newspaper.

My nagging thoughts are;

1. Those on the phot seems mauch larger than 1 mm.

2. The Asahi yesterday (7 July) did talk about the 10 or so particles found outside the chambers of being a few mm in size. I, of course, thought that it was a simple mistake when I saw the article, but I am no longer sure...

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Dear Pandaneko I'll very appreciate direct urls to quoted newspapers here

thanks, Andrey

Dear Andrey

Here below you find URLs for Japanese newspapers carried in English. Best.

https://club.japantimes.co.jp/pm/ad/jt/index_e.html
(This above is no good as you need to pay)


http://www.asahi.com/english/

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/freetop.aspx

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Here below is the URL to what one newspaper reporter said in his blog about the press conference of 5 July, I think.

It is too long for translation, but it does carry much clearer photos towards the end. Put in a nutshell, what they are saying at this press conference is that they are being very cautious, without prejidice...

For your information;

1. The bolt size you see on the picture is M3.

2. Microscope maginification is 100.

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

Here below is the URL to what one newspaper reporter said in his blog about the press conference of 5 July, I think.

Apologies

Here it is.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/pepani/e/a2b32aec75d...b8212d3520cf990

Pandaneko

[stevesliva]

JAXA found yet more than 100 of 10 micron size grains inside the chamber A, which was kept open for the second landing. At least a few of them are being sent out to NASA right now, and one each to other academic institutions.

All other major Japanese newspapers today carried similar stories about these newly found 100 or so grains. From what they say I am inclined to think at least some people within JAXA now think that some of them did come from Itokawa.

This sounds like fantastic news!

[pandaneko]

I got this news just before falling asleep.

Apparently, JAXA has since found more than 1,000 grains, perhaps inside the chamber A. Chamber B has not been opened yet.

I want to hear what NASA has to say, really...

Pandaneko

[pandaneko]

I am getting a bit weary of uploading my stuff one after another, but this thought might be of interest.

The capsule had been kept in class 100,000 environment, both in the clearn room at ISAS and at the assembly site pre-launch. Given the volume of the cannister (or one half of it) my back of envelope calculation tells me that potentially there can be as many as 20,000 of 5 micron size terrestrial particles in there.

However, we have not heard anything of that kind so far. Therefore, I am convinced that they purged them before launch and rotated the rotating door so that any more terrestrial particles would not get in.

If they can rotate the shutter door at Itokawa (We know they did) they must also have done it in flight in deep space while they still had enough electrical power, because we know that the collection chamber(s) were exposed to vaccum in flight. They must have opened the door before closing it again at Itokawa.

So, once again I think they came from Itokawa...

Pandaneko

[Stu]

Don't feel weary; you're our window on this mission's developments right now. We're all reading.

[ElkGroveDan]

Yes, Thanks again pandaneko. ElkGroveNeko thanks you too as he waits for his morning coffee.

[fredk]

The capsule had been kept in class 100,000 environment... potentially there can be as many as 20,000 of 5 micron size terrestrial particles in there.

How did you do this calculation? According to this source, class 100 000 means 700 particles 5 microns or larger in a volume of 1 cubic foot (US FED STD 209E), or 29 300 per cubic metre (ISO 14644-1). Isn't the cannister volume much less then a cubic metre?

[Drkskywxlt]

How much science can they realistically get out of this one small particle? No doubt they'll do a thorough investigation under a microscope, but then aren't they left with just blasting it in a mass spec and figuring out what it's made of? Is there anything else they can really do with such a small sample?

[Hungry4info]

I read that even if one grain was found, it could be cut into pieces, sent all over the world for study, and a variety of tests done on it. From what I understood, one grain would have been a treasure trove all by itself.

[Drkskywxlt]

I read that even if one grain was found, it could be cut into pieces, sent all over the world for study, and a variety of tests done on it. From what I understood, one grain would have been a treasure trove all by itself.

I guess that's my real question...how much can you divide such an incredibly small sample? And does dividing it so many times bring diminishing returns? This isn't like a rock brought back by Apollo.

[Juramike]

Even for just running a mass spect sample, there are a whole slew of mass spectrometry experiments that can be run. Each can give you different levels of information.

direct injection MS
HRMS
GCMS (gas chromatography on front end)
MS-MS
Fourier Transform Ion Cyclotron Mass spectrometry

and probably a whole bunch of new mass spectrometry techniques that haven't been mainstreamed yet.

I don't know how they would divide the grain, but I bet there are a lot of instrumentation labs that would love to analyze even a tiny bit.
And each technique might find new information.