Sol 65 and after, Digs in Neverland, Cupboard, Stone Soup, Burn Alive... Options

[elakdawalla]

Since there will be a press briefing today at 11 am PDT / 1800 UT it seems like a good time to start a fresh Phoenix thread. Phoenix hasn't gotten that icy sample yet but they do seem to have overcome their concerns about using TEGA so it looks likely we'll see a lot more sample acquisitions and deliveries in the coming weeks.

Press briefing will be on NASA TV: http://www.nasa.gov/ntv on both public and media channels. Here's that higher-bitrate stream on Yahoo: http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/nasa/index.html

--Emily

[JRehling]

To take the question of the rate of circulation -- the water "cycle" on Mars (if indeed a cycle it be), and tie it to the ice sample -- the D:H ratio of the sample could give us a lot of evidence. If this topmost layer of ice has a different D:H than the atmosphere, then it's been here for a long time. Not to make too much of one tiny measurement, but it really is a huge issue:

-- Maybe there is a cycle, but only where the ice is even closer to the surface than it is at the Phoenix site.

-- Maybe there is a cycle, but the summertime ice level is some tiny epsilon below the winter ice level, and it's that seasonal epsilon that cycles. If so, a summer measurement of the very topmost ice might show a difference from atmospheric D:H that belies the truth. (With CO2 overlying the H2O in winter, the seasons become very complex with regard to the surface of that H2O layer.)

-- Given any possible cycle, the question of how much and how often becomes a "verbose" one.

Am I getting too excited over this... because I could see follow-up missions to measure the D:H at a variety of depths and latitudes. It's eminently doable. Is it making too much over too little? It seems to me that the whole martian water cycle is what would be characterized in that way. Moreover, you could play "Twenty Questions" cleverly and end the game by finding negative evidence in the most favorable spot. (Exposed polar H2O ice right before or right after the CO2 covers it.)

Can D:H be determined in water ice with any reliability spectroscopically from orbit? That could be the magic measurement. Maybe the data is already in hand?!

[djellison]

They got the OK for an extension to Sol 124!

Doug

[elakdawalla]

Did you catch the calendar date on that? I missed it.

--Emily

[elakdawalla]

Bill Boynton says: TEGA got ice!!!

--Emily

[jamescanvin]

Ice sample! Wow!

[SickNick]

To take the question of the rate of circulation -- the water "cycle" on Mars (if indeed a cycle it be), and tie it to the ice sample -- the D:H ratio of the sample could give us a lot of evidence. If this topmost layer of ice has a different D:H than the atmosphere, then it's been here for a long time.

John,

look at the speed with which the "Snow Queen" feature has sublimed, once it was exposed. We're looking at a moderately to highly dynamic system here. Of course things are slower when they are buried by a few cm of insulating dirt, but over timescales of a few thousand years, these ice deposits are VERY active. let alone millions of years. D:H ratios don't change very fast...

[TheChemist]

The hat was hilarious ! :-)

[elakdawalla]

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[jamescanvin]

How did we miss that lidar image?!

[ElkGroveDan]

Who was that young lady? She has a great public persona. She makes a fantastic spokesperson, they should send her on tour when this is all over.

[fredk]

Did anyone catch where the tega sample that had some ice (a few percent or less, Boynton said) was collected? Was it a new soil sample or old rasp shavings?

[elakdawalla]

Here's a link to the graphics for today's press conference.
http://jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php

EDIT: Boynton said the sample was "a quick scraping of the soil above the ice layer" so I assume that means Wicked Witch came from the Snow White trench, a newly scraped sample.

--Emily

[Stu]

Hmmm... Craig Covault was very cryptic there wasn't he? Almost like he was suggesting he knew they'd found Something Interesting but weren't telling... Conspiracy theorists are going to LOVE that...

[djellison]

How did we miss that lidar image?!

I know - it's quite obvious now, looking at the Raw's

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS061EFF901...8_16AA3RBM1.jpg

[nprev]

(Sigh...) And here I was playing elsewhere & completely forgot about this. (Worked all last night, just got home an hour or two ago). Any other juicy tidbits?

[jmknapp]

Did you catch the calendar date on that? I missed it.

I heard "end of the year."

So maybe the message to families of Phoenix team members is "I'll be home for Christmas."

That's right around the equinox, with the sun barely getting above 20 degrees elevation, max.

[jmknapp]

Who was that young lady? She has a great public persona. She makes a fantastic spokesperson, they should send her on tour when this is all over.

Totally agree--delightful presentation.

[centsworth_II]

I heard "end of the year."

I heard end of fiscal year which would be September 30. Not much of an extension. It must take more paperwork to extend into a new fiscal year.

[fredk]

Any other juicy tidbits?

The last question was one of the best: Boynton answered that they don't have enough water in the tega sample to get the isotope ratios, unfortunately. They'll need a higher proportion of ice to soil to do that.

But this does put the last nail in the coffin of any attempts to attribute the Dodo/Goldilocks observations to anything but water ice.

[djellison]

Yeah - it's end of fiscal year, Sol 124. For approx $2m. That puts it almost bang on an order of magnitude better value per sol.

Doug

[nprev]

It must take more paperwork to extend into a new fiscal year.

That, and an approved budget, which never happens on time. I'm certain that they're pressing for supplementary funding to be included in the inevitable continuing resolution until the budget gets passed. Normally, it shouldn't be a problem.

[jmknapp]

Any other juicy tidbits?

On the TEGA front, after the second ice-rich sample stuck to the scoop ("the last thing we were expecting") they decided to go for a dry sample & were delighted to find out that, surprise, there was indeed some ice in the sample anyway. "Champagne corks were popping all around"--I assume metaphorical, but who knows what the work environment is there. The amount of ice is small (~1%) but it almost definitely is ice because they saw it melting at 0 degrees. They also saw the H2O signature in the mass spec. So this goes beyond the first dry(ish) sample where they saw trace quantities of water, but only coming off the minerals at high temps. Boynton didn't say whether they would get isotope ratios from the data. I note that yesterday Boynton wasn't slated to be on the panel--maybe an indication of late-breaking developments--i.e., some good TEGA news.

There was a lot of presentation about the meteorological results. The animation showing the LIDAR beam at midnight looked like it showed wispy clouds or something drifting by--not sure.

There was a little bit of the feeling of listening to Pravda--one would think this is the most successful mission ever. More like--yippee, the IRS has granted an extension on our filing date! Never was heard a discouraging word. When one reporter mentioned the troubles TEGA has had in collecting an ice sample, Boynton got a little testy, saying that since they just got one, what's the problem?

[jmjawors]

More tidbits (in no particular order):

• Mark Lemmon (who I think was called "Mike" ) mentioned the completion of the 'Mission Success Pan,' as well as the beginning of a higher resolution pan called 'Happily Ever After.' An example of some of the intriguing surface details the SSI has photographed are the surprisingly un-wind-sculpted rocks all over the landing site.
• The atomic force microscope will be used "soon."
• The second WCL sample was remarkably similar to the first one. Perhaps this has something to do with their proximity to Heimdall?
• One of the remaining TEGA ovens will be reserved as a "blank" (maybe this was already well-known, but it's a detail I'd forgotten). In the meantime, the next sample will be another "dry" sample as the sticky ice problem is worked.
• The TEGA short circuit is now gone. I still don't understand this... is it one short? Two shorts? What happened to restore their faith that the remaining six ovens are safe to use? I wish they'd clear that up better. But... the important thing is that it's working!
• (I think the truth is closer to this.... )
• Lessee... There was a nice weather presentation that is summed up in this graphic.
• Two new trenches will be dug, called "Cupboard" and "Neverland." [Image]

Hopefully the briefing was recorded and will appear on this site soon.

[centsworth_II]

Boynton didn't say whether they would get isotope ratios from the data.

As already noted by fredk, in responce to the last question of the day, he said there was not enough ice in the sample to get isotope data. They still need an ice rich sample for that. I was waiting for that question and glad it just got in under the wire, but disappointed by the answer. Still, it's something to look forward to.

[elakdawalla]

I always have a hard time finding the links to the animations for these press conferences. Here it is:
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/videos_sol66.php

There were some neat ones today.

--Emily

[jmjawors]

(Sigh...) And here I was playing elsewhere & completely forgot about this...

Voila

[mars loon]

I know - it's quite obvious now, looking at the Raw's

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/i/SS061EFF901...8_16AA3RBM1.jpg

I wondered the same thing. and that link really clarifies everything !

[fredk]

How did we miss that lidar image?!

What amazes me about this (apart from the fact no one here spotted the beam first!) is that the beam is visible in broad daylight! (Those images were mid-afternoon.) I would've thought maybe at night...

Edit: the images were near 3am, but of course the sun is up all night now.

Light does not backscatter well from air, and Martian air is extremely thin, so we must be seeing backscattering from the dust. Martian air tends to be much dustier than earth's, and I doubt the beam would be visible in normal daylight conditions on earth.

This reminds me - anyone recall hearing a tau measurement for Phoenix?

edit - not only did no one notice the images, but apparently we all missed Lemmon's caption:

SSI Image of LIDAR beam

[slinted]

Sol 67 image of the new 'Cupboard' trench, next to Dodo-Goldilocks:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_17400.jpg

[djellison]

edit - not only did no one notice the images, but apparently we all missed Lemmon's caption:

Actually

SSI Image of LIDAR beam..


10 commanded, but 0 received. The ones we've now seen were from a different sol

Doug

[fredk]

The caption I quoted from the sol 60 page has ActID 16AA. You can find those 16AA pics (all ten) on the sol 61 page.

My guess is that that sequence was planned together with the main sol 60 images, so is described on the sol 60 page, but the images are shown on the sol 61 page, since, well, they were taken on sol 61! But of course there's a certain member out there who can verify this...

I haven't seen the lidar beam in any of the other green filter lidar-search frames returned so far, which is interesting actually. Could it be we saw the beam in the first succesful sequence because dust levels were unusually high?

[Deimos]

The sol 60 16AA and sol 61 16AA are indeed the same. There are a few unfortunate issues with the archiving, that are just not a high priority for fixing. One is that the plans are reported per planning sol, typically 0500 to 0500 LMST or thereabouts, while the data are reported by true sol (0000 - 2400 LTST). Another is that multiple plans can confuse things (a runout looks like ghost activities on sol 67 and others). And occasionally something really messes up the counts (like the joint sol 40/41 plan). None of these are unsolvable, they are just a pain for now.

There was early discussion of having tau on the weather graphic--but saying tau was 0.4 or 0.9 or whatever early on, or that it had settled to 0.3 or 035 lately ... that just wouldn't mean much to most people.

[Astro0]

"That's some nice trenchin' you dun there Billy bob. Yep, sure is some nice trenchin'".

[Stu]

Some new pictures on my gallery page...

[Guest_Oersted_*]

Aesthetically, "Neverland" is surely the prettiest trench so far. The one to show in textbooks about Phoenix...

[Stu]

"Snow White" might not be very pretty (what an ungallant thing to say! ) but she looks great in the evening light...

[James Sorenson]

On the Phoenix website, the max temperature for Sol-61 said it reached 32 degrees F . This has got to be some sort of a mistake.

[climber]

On the Phoenix website, the max temperature for Sol-61 said it reached 32 degrees F . This has got to be some sort of a mistake.

At least, this is consitent with ° C


Edit : the web site has been corrected with correct T°

[Stu]

Couple of new anaglyphs on my gallery site if anyone would like a look... wonderful depth to these ones...

[HughFromAlice]

Yes I did have a look Stu, and they're good. Now if I could only strain just a little bit more and peek around those rocks............

[Stu]

A couple more anaglyphs generated from sol 70 images...

"Neverland" is coming on nicely, too...

[fredk]

I don't think anyone's mentioned that more of the bright ice has been uncovered in the cupboard dig.

I hope we get to see the whole workspace cleared of topsoil eventually!

[nprev]

"Neverland" is coming on nicely, too...

Beauty stuff, Stu!

I'm still fascinated by the cohesiveness of the soil here. Everywhere else we've dug on Mars by whatever means leaves loose, crumbly sides.

[Stu]

Phoenix seems to be making perchlorate castles and messing about like a kid on a beach...!

[Astro0]

Kid digging on a beach?!
How about writing in the snow!
Is it just me or did the PHX team use the rasp to very cleverly write ' ICE! ' in the Snow White trench.


EDIT: I didn't think that anyone would take either Stu or I as being serious about this .
Just for fun folks. Maybe we'll move it to the 'It's Just Humour!' thread.

[Stu]

What?!?! Surely not... surely a highly professional, dedicated team of cutting edge planetary scientists, in charge of a mega-million dollar mission, with the eyes of the world watching them 24 and a bit hours a sol wouldn't do that? Why, that would be...

BERILLIANT!!! If that's not just a strange trick of shadow and light then what an absolutely glorious, childish, we-did-it-just-because-we-can-he-he thing to do! Love it!

Colourised version here...

[remcook]

I doubt that was on purpose, but pretty funny nevertheless

[Stu]

Yeah, you're right... they "accidentally" spelled out the word "ICE" and put an exclamation mark on the end... I can see how that might happen...

[centsworth_II]

In this crop of an image posted by CosmicRocker, it looks like a straightforward four by four rasp pattern. So, no frivolity. (Not by humans at least.) Any "ICE!" inscription was created by the scoop scraping over the rasp holes.

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.p...st&p=121753

[djellison]

It's just a 4 x 4 - sorry Stu - if they meant to write Ice - they'd have done a better job of it.

Doug

[fredk]

Actually, it was one 4x4 rasp hole grid followed by another 4x4 rasp hole grid, beautifully interleaved between the first. Compare the image in centsworth's post just above with the image linked to in this post.

Just for the record, I don't think they tried to spell anything...

[MarsIsImportant]

It all seems to be a cosmic joke to me!

[Juramike]

Maybe the trench isn't big enough to spell "Perchlorate?"?

[centsworth_II]

So, the Phoenix team is communicating with us via rasp drill hole patterns?
We must all have Beautiful Minds!

[Stu]

It's just a 4 x 4 - sorry Stu - if they meant to write Ice - they'd have done a better job of it.

Doug

You practical guys just love bursting the bubbles of us hopeless romantics, dontcha...

Oh well, it was a nice thought while it lasted. And hey, it might've given them some creative "Take Hart" ideas...

[Greg Hullender]

The time to worry, Stu, is when you start seeing high-speed turtles. ;-)

--Greg

[Reckless]

microscope photo, strange thing on the right obviously not air-bag material although a little like the bunny we chased htat came from the MER airbags

[peter59]

"Snow Queen" - process of disintegration speeds up.

Sol 73

[Stu]

Yes, it's certainly breaking up...



Frame 1: Sol 44
Frame 2: Sol 73

[Hungry4info]

O_o if the ice is breaking up like that, what are the odds of scooping some of it up?

Ice cream, straight of the freezer, is hard to scoop up, but leave it out a while and it gets warmer and easier to carve into.
(perhaps not the best of analogies, lolol, I don't even like ice cream).

Is it's position under the lander going to make acquiring it difficult/impossible? Or would you not want to anyway for reasons of contamination when Phoenix landed?

[djellison]

Is it's position under the lander going to make acquiring it difficult/impossible?

Yes.

[peter59]

I hope that Happy Pan will be significantly better than Peter Pan.

At last we have perfectly focused image of the horizon.
Sol 73 SSI LEFT, filter unknown (probably 2), Az: 96 (E)
Let's compare with out of focus image (Peter Pan).
Sol 28 SSI RIGHT, filter 1, Az: 96 (E)

[ugordan]

That's not a focus issue, rather a raw contrast stretch issue.

[akuo]

It is a focus issue, different filters have different focus . The SSI is probably optimised for the blue filter's focus, as are pancams on MERs.

[ugordan]

The diopters are optimized for near field studies (i.e. on the s/c deck), most others have good focus at distances such as this. It looks more to me like different filters and illumination angles than anything else.

[akuo]

Could be higher wavelett compression too, resulting in a softer image. The second image is clearly softer though, regardless of any illumination issues.

[Deimos]

SSI focus is optimized for 3 to 3.5 m distance, since the main role for SSI is support of digging ops, and it has no role in picking where to drive next. It is still good at the horizon, but not ideal. Sampling is best in the red stereo filters. As with Pancam, the blue filters look sharper, but that is due to aliasing. Super sharp is good for pretty pictures; good sampling is important for good stereo models even if it looks slightly less sharp.

And the new pan better end up higher quality--it costs 10x as much.

[ugordan]

And the new pan better end up higher quality--it costs 10x as much.

What are the estimates of date of it being completely on the ground?

[elakdawalla]

What are the estimates of date of it being completely on the ground?

Translation: "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

--Emily

[Phil Stooke]

Some new extensions to Cupboard now. They've messed up poor old Dodo-Goldilocks a bit.

Phil

[Deimos]

The new pan was sized to take to Nov 15, with various assumptions about available passes and competing priorities. That didn't include retakes of unrecoverable missing data, but there's a lot of slop in the estimate.

[Stu]

Couple of new 3Ds in my Phoenixpics gallery now, if anyone wants a look... Those dirt dumps really are starting to look like moden art now...

[Stu]

Really nice (I think!) view of the scoop actually... well... scooping...

"Down in the dirt"

[Phil Stooke]

The Cupboard trench is getting bigger:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_20646.jpg


Phil

[Stu]

I've just hung some new pictures up on the Gallery walls, if anyone wants to have a lazy, relaxing wander around, maybe to rest their brains after all the stunning Enceladus pics...!

"Festival of Trenching"

"Serene Scene"

[elakdawalla]

Phew! Lengthy update posted here
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001603/

There are lots and lots of new names to cope with, so here is the map I posted with that update. I also edited the topic title to reflect the activity of the sols since 65.

--Emily

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[Hungry4info]

With all of these new trenches, what are the odds of Phoenix accidentally snagging up a root?

I'm guessing ... pretty low?

[nprev]

Great update, Emily, thanks! (Yeah, that was pretty huge...have a Mars Bar!)

[Aussie]

While I can work out the impulse behind most of the names used by the team, I am stumped by 'Burn Alive' and also I guess by 'Rosy Red'.
Any idea what is the driver behind these designations?

[djellison]

A Witch will burn if you throw water on her ( hence Burn Alive ) - not sure on Rosy Red

[01101001]

not sure on Rosy Red

Wikipedia: Snow-White and Rose-Red

[Aussie]

OK got Rosy Red - but didn't water melt the wicked witch? Haven't heard the water burning witches story but the Monty Python Holy Grail does now ring a bell: A witch! Burn her! Burn her! Curiosity satisfied I can sleep tonight.

[centsworth_II]

In the fairy tale, Hansel and Gretel, the witch is trapped in the oven she used for cooking children, and burned alive.

[SteveM]

Might Burn Alive have provided some soil for the ovens of the Thermal and Evolved Gas Analyzer?

Steve M

[Ant103]

The new trenches around Dodo and Goldilocks. This began to be like the terrain in the North of France during the First World War


And a color anaglpyh of a nice view of the horizon with Heimdall hills :

[Deimos]

See the near fate of Snow White and Rosy Red in http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/ptn/ptn18.htm

Rosy Red is currently in/on TEGA, WCL, and OM. Burn Alive was originally (sol 25) the hole left behind when Rosy Red was removed (like Baby Bear vs. Goldilocks), and it has since been expanded. Similarly, Wicked Witch (sol 64) and Sorceress (34) came from Snow White.

[BrianL]

I am stumped by 'Burn Alive'

Obviously a coded message from the Phoenix team. The perchlorate story was a big cover-up, they have discovered life, and are being forced by the House Whose Color Shall Not Be Named to keep it under wraps.

[jmknapp]

In the fairy tale, Hansel and Gretel, the witch is trapped in the oven she used for cooking children, and burned alive.

Hmmm, that explains all the crumbs on the instrument deck.

[Stu]

One of my fave 3D views of the robot arm so far...



( Full resolution version here )

[nprev]

That's worth a multitude of "ooo...ahhh"'s Stu, thanks!

[remcook]

Finally got round to looking at your 3-d images stu...bloody amazing! cool stuff

[Ant103]

Yes, Stu, your amazing is analgyph -oops- your anaglyph is amazing .

Here is a other view of a probably upcomming pan, on Sol 78 :


And an anagyph version that I recommand


The Tell Tale, we see some dust at the bottom of the miror :

[Stu]

Three gorgeous images there Ant, especially love the colourised Telltale one... one of the clearest I've seen, I think

[peter59]

Reality or optical illusion ?

It looks as if several millimetre layer of ice evaporated. These two images of Dodo-Goldilocks trench are taken in similar lightning conditions. Note that the same filter was used for both images.

[ugordan]

Those don't look like optical effects to me, looks like a depression was left where the "ice" once was.

[peter59]

End of Polar Summer.

Beautiful image of the midnight sun low on the horizon.
Image acquired at 00:09:37 Mars local time.

[fredk]

It looks as if several millimetre layer of ice evaporated.

Thanks for the good comparison - I wanted to do that myself, so you saved me the effort!

That's got to be significant sublimation, there. And actually it was noticed a couple of weeks ago in this post!

[Stu]

Wow...



( alternative version in my gallery here... which is right? Which do you prefer? )

( BTW: for people who enjoy martian anaglyphs... I've been experimenting with more terrestrial scenes, and here are a couple of examples, from a recent trip to Muncaster Castle... rock... tree stump... God bless Stereo-photomaker! )

[slinted]

The sol 79 dig expanded on Upper Cupboard, uncovering another large bright spot like the one next door in Dodo-Goldilocks. Since the arm is mostly obscuring the view, the left eye color has the best angle to see the new exposure. Click through for full frame


Sol 79, 15:03 L1/L2