IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Martian Cave Probe?, Designs for the DEEP Search for Life
Shaka
post Nov 14 2007, 12:18 AM
Post #1


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1229
Joined: 24-December 05
From: The blue one in between the yellow and red ones.
Member No.: 618



Does anyone consider it worthwhile to speculate on how we might explore Martian caves or lava tubes for the traces of life - past or present? I have not yet run across any 'official' proposals for "spelunker probes", so perhaps we could have some fun and get in on the ground floor with some feasible early designs. With the engineering and scientific expertise we have at UMSF we should be able to whittle down the possible features for such a rover to a practical core. If the planned surface scrapers and drillers don't turn up conclusive evidence to answer The Big Question, can we justify a search of the Martian Underground?

I can envisage a RTG-powered rover that enters a cave, or rappels down a skylight opening, leaving a base communication stage outside connected to it with a fiber-optic umbilical cable. Some form of laser or other illumination - in the visible and/or infrared - would presumably be required. How many of the MSL instruments could be included? What novel instruments would be appropriate? What is the optimal size and mobility design? 'Do we yet have 'hot' prospects for accessible caves? How should we choose the best candidates?

We can leave this to some JPL bright spark to develop, or we can dive right in. Any takers? smile.gif wheel.gif


--------------------
My Grandpa goes to Mars every day and all I get are these lousy T-shirts!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Shaka
post Nov 16 2007, 09:52 PM
Post #2


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1229
Joined: 24-December 05
From: The blue one in between the yellow and red ones.
Member No.: 618



For starters I'll concede that no interplanetary probe could be infallible in the face of sufficiently fiendish challenges from the environment. But if our surface probes don't turn up any incontrovertible evidence for life, we will still have the possibility that it persists deeper underground.

My understanding of living species communities is that they will tend to expand outside of their optimum core area over time. This is because of species competition for resources. The superior competitor will push its inferiors toward the periphery, where they will have to adapt to conditions or go extinct. The process repeats until the community occupies all the habitable space up to the boundary of entirely unsurvivable conditions. This uncrossable boundary could be very deep on Mars (kilometers), in which case our life search will be long and frustrating, or it could be just 10 meters inside a cave, say where radiation levels drop sufficiently. In this case our first cave probe could succeed brilliantly on its first day. You pays your money and takes your chances.

Cents2 understands how Shelob's silk should function, however it would help avoid tangles when backing up if the line can be retracted simultaneously. This complicates the mechanism, of course, but the alternative is to avoid backing up. I'm aware that some of the fiber-optic towed RF decoys (pulled behind war planes to distract radar-guided anti-air missiles) can be reeled in and out again. This implies some kind of small winch at work, but the details are classified, of course. I like the fiber-optic silk because it can combine reliable, high-bandwidth communication/control from earth, with a means to rappel down from skylights or precipices - also because Nature thought of it first rolleyes.gif . Theoretically Shelob could descend multiple drops, but there are limits to everything.

Cents, where the existence of life is concerned, Mars itself is a "pig in a poke".


--------------------
My Grandpa goes to Mars every day and all I get are these lousy T-shirts!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Shaka   Martian Cave Probe?   Nov 14 2007, 12:18 AM
- - nprev   Cool idea, but I don't think it'd ever fly...   Nov 14 2007, 12:52 AM
- - dvandorn   As far as I know, however, all of the lava tube ca...   Nov 14 2007, 01:54 AM
- - nprev   Great point, oDoug. Hopefully <wish mode> we...   Nov 14 2007, 03:27 AM
- - Shaka   You get my drift, nprev. Elevation could be a cru...   Nov 14 2007, 06:20 AM
|- - dburt   QUOTE (Shaka @ Nov 13 2007, 11:20 PM) ......   Nov 15 2007, 10:22 PM
- - Cugel   Elevation is only a problem if you come in on a ch...   Nov 14 2007, 01:20 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (Cugel @ Nov 14 2007, 05:20 AM) Als...   Nov 14 2007, 04:12 PM
|- - Cugel   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 14 2007, 05:12 PM) I w...   Nov 15 2007, 11:59 AM
- - centsworth_II   If you're looking for microbe-friendly habitat...   Nov 14 2007, 03:59 PM
- - Shaka   Thanks, guys, for your input. Clearly this is not...   Nov 15 2007, 04:56 AM
- - Shaka   Good fundamental astrobiological question, Cugel. ...   Nov 15 2007, 08:21 PM
|- - Cugel   QUOTE (Shaka @ Nov 15 2007, 09:21 PM) Goo...   Nov 16 2007, 03:09 PM
- - Shaka   For sure, Prof Don! Any kind of vent or other...   Nov 15 2007, 11:09 PM
- - nprev   Like the spider, still hate the cable. I wonder if...   Nov 16 2007, 01:13 AM
- - Shaka   Don't understand your problem with Shelob...   Nov 16 2007, 02:39 AM
- - nprev   I keep thinking of the cable getting wedged betwee...   Nov 16 2007, 02:48 AM
- - mchan   All I gotta say is you guys here have designed des...   Nov 16 2007, 03:02 AM
- - Shaka   Devilsfood, to be precise. All we need is to cult...   Nov 16 2007, 04:09 AM
- - nprev   Shaka, let's compromise. Shelob can drag a fib...   Nov 16 2007, 01:45 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 16 2007, 08:45 AM) She...   Nov 16 2007, 03:41 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Nov 16 2007, 07:41...   Nov 17 2007, 01:57 AM
- - Juramike   Hmmm...I'd worry about possible backtracking. ...   Nov 16 2007, 04:05 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (Juramike @ Nov 16 2007, 11:05 AM) ...   Nov 16 2007, 05:41 PM
- - Juramike   At some point we will need to go in and explore ha...   Nov 16 2007, 06:14 PM
- - Shaka   For starters I'll concede that no interplaneta...   Nov 16 2007, 09:52 PM
- - Del Palmer   Would a modified version of LEMUR be up to the job...   Nov 16 2007, 10:59 PM
- - Shaka   LEMUR How sweet it is! I'm relieved to s...   Nov 17 2007, 01:32 AM
- - Shaka   Helllll, yessss, nprev! It was about 25 years...   Nov 17 2007, 05:21 AM
- - nprev   ...I was an ET, sailed several times on the Albatr...   Nov 17 2007, 11:23 AM
- - Shaka   "navigate back" Wow, you don't want...   Nov 17 2007, 06:55 PM
- - Shaka   Expanding further on the subject of Shelob's i...   Nov 17 2007, 09:25 PM
- - nprev   All over it, Boss! Gonna stick to my guns on...   Nov 17 2007, 11:29 PM
- - tanjent   Getting any hardware to Mars is going to be expens...   Nov 20 2007, 04:07 PM
- - Shaka   Scouting is good. Expensive is bad. But good and ...   Nov 22 2007, 07:25 AM


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 31st May 2024 - 05:37 PM
RULES AND GUIDELINES
Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting.

IMAGE COPYRIGHT
Images posted on UnmannedSpaceflight.com may be copyrighted. Do not reproduce without permission. Read here for further information on space images and copyright.

OPINIONS AND MODERATION
Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators.
SUPPORT THE FORUM
Unmannedspaceflight.com is funded by the Planetary Society. Please consider supporting our work and many other projects by donating to the Society or becoming a member.