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Manned Landing On Titan, Issues & Answers?
nprev
post Oct 19 2006, 09:08 PM
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Just got to thinking about some of the problems that may have to be addressed if & when we ever try to visit Titan in person.

The first thing that comes to mind is what might happen if some Titanian air gets inside an oxygen-rich manned spacecraft, say from minor airlock residue. I imagine that the explosive potential of some of the trace gasses is pretty high, and there's probably also a significant risk of poisonous compounds as well. So, here are some tenative requirements:

1. REALLY efficient air-scavenging airlocks.
2. Surface suits that can't trap external gasses in creases, folds, etc.
3. Spark-proof electrical/electronic everything.
4. Smoking is strictly forbidden (with apologies to the entire 1950s SF movie genre!) rolleyes.gif

Gotta be more...any ideas?


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Juramike
post Nov 26 2007, 12:52 PM
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Nigel nailed it! There are lots of really good energy sources on Titan:

Wind - wind speeds low but fairly steady, but atmosphere is thicker than on Earth. And dunes give a great indicator of funneling of winds from topographical features. (Double Bonus, we can use dune features visible NOW to select best places for wind farms!)

"Hydro" - If any of the polar streams are flowing at rates even close to those predicted by dimension, there's a massive potential for methane fluid flow.

Geothermal - Findind a fairly recent crater could allow you to trap residual heat from liquid water-ammonia. Also, there might be circulating fluids down deep (molten water-ammonia? molten organics?). Water has good heat capacity due to it's phase change energy. (It releases lots of heat on crystallization)

Chemical - There may be natural organic ore bodies that could be useful for energy production. For example (and I'm speaking off the top of my head - someone would need to look at the energies to see if it would be useful), a deposit of pyridinium N-oxides might be equivalent of a fuel deposit on Earth. (Pyridinium N-oxide could be used as an oxidant). There could be other potential reactant bodies lying around (or easily mined) that are prevented from reacting due to kinetic barriers from normal Titan conditions. Add a catalyst, or enough heat to overcome the barrier, and bingo, you've got an energy source. (Maybe not as impressive as fire, but any exothermic reaction helps!)

Finally, what are then energies involved in splitting water, taking the oxygen, then burning hydrocarbon? (This might be "carbon neutral" on Titan - since you are swapping one IR absorber for another)

What are the energies for:

H2O --> H2 + O2 [uphill]
O2 + CH4 --> CO2 + H2O [downhill]
H2 + C2H4 (or C2H4) + cat --> C2H6 [downhill]


Titan has oodles of potential energy sources. We've got evidence of wind (Huygens drift and dunes), evidence for permanently flowing liquids is tanalizingly close, and exploitable chemical and geothermal sources will require more research and examination. (So surface exploration serves two roles: science and energy prospecting).

-Mike


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- nprev   Manned Landing On Titan   Oct 19 2006, 09:08 PM
- - RedSky   In reference to your item #4... here's somethi...   Oct 19 2006, 09:48 PM
- - volcanopele   You definitely want a very efficient air filtering...   Oct 19 2006, 09:59 PM
- - ngunn   I would love to go, but I'd prefer to be insid...   Oct 20 2006, 01:15 PM
|- - ugordan   I find it compelling that you could go around on T...   Oct 20 2006, 01:28 PM
|- - JRehling   The really compelling thing (offset by many hazard...   Oct 20 2006, 09:08 PM
||- - dvandorn   QUOTE (JRehling @ Oct 20 2006, 04:08 PM) ...   Oct 21 2006, 03:18 AM
|- - mchan   QUOTE (ugordan @ Oct 20 2006, 06:28 AM) I...   Oct 21 2006, 02:28 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (ugordan @ Oct 21 2006, 12:28 AM) I...   Nov 28 2007, 07:13 AM
- - JonClarke   A slightly higher internal than external pressure ...   Oct 21 2006, 06:19 AM
- - djellison   What would be the physiological effects of living ...   Oct 21 2006, 09:16 AM
- - nprev   1.6+ bar and mostly nitrogen to boot. If the lande...   Oct 21 2006, 12:19 PM
|- - JonClarke   QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 21 2006, 12:19 PM) 1.6...   Oct 22 2006, 09:05 AM
- - tasp   A vacuum capable airlock might be rather heavy to ...   Oct 21 2006, 02:09 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (tasp @ Oct 21 2006, 03:09 PM) but ...   Oct 21 2006, 11:27 PM
- - nprev   Yeah, I suspect that the funk factor of Titan...   Oct 21 2006, 10:14 PM
- - tasp   From the Titan chapter in The New Solar System, I ...   Oct 22 2006, 02:00 AM
- - nprev   Oh, okay; so maybe the pressure differential isn...   Oct 22 2006, 10:56 PM
|- - JonClarke   QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 22 2006, 10:56 PM) I h...   Oct 23 2006, 12:21 AM
- - RNeuhaus   How will the astronauts will be able to talk to th...   Oct 23 2006, 03:13 AM
|- - ugordan   Easily. They will not talk. They will send message...   Oct 23 2006, 07:02 AM
- - nprev   Yeah, on pretty much any body but the Moon real-ti...   Oct 23 2006, 07:41 AM
- - nprev   Reviving this thread just because it's interes...   Nov 24 2007, 08:08 AM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 24 2007, 03:08 AM) Rev...   Nov 24 2007, 02:45 PM
- - djellison   Look up how much effort they took to make sure the...   Nov 24 2007, 09:54 AM
- - nprev   Great, interesting thoughts as per usual, Mike...   Nov 24 2007, 03:21 PM
- - Reckless   Realising that Titan's atmosphere is 98% plus ...   Nov 24 2007, 03:45 PM
- - nprev   Only thing I can think of would be an electrical p...   Nov 24 2007, 04:35 PM
- - ngunn   Combustion is not my field but I'd be surprise...   Nov 24 2007, 05:07 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (ngunn @ Nov 24 2007, 12:07 PM) Com...   Nov 24 2007, 09:18 PM
- - nprev   Ah. Then we need to just ground the hell out of th...   Nov 24 2007, 06:46 PM
- - Reckless   Thanks for the replys all. I feel a lot safer now ...   Nov 24 2007, 08:04 PM
- - nprev   Eek. So, outside-only booties & gloves stowed ...   Nov 24 2007, 11:23 PM
- - tty   20 % O2 would seem excessive (and probably unhealt...   Nov 25 2007, 08:52 PM
- - nprev   Hey, that's a great point about self-sealing l...   Nov 25 2007, 11:45 PM
- - Juramike   Hydrocarbon solvents have a very low electical con...   Nov 26 2007, 12:29 AM
- - nprev   Think that would depend on the composition of the ...   Nov 26 2007, 01:02 AM
- - dvandorn   All in all, though, Nick, Titan offers more of the...   Nov 26 2007, 05:38 AM
|- - tty   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 26 2007, 06:38 AM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 07:16 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 25 2007, 09:38 PM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 12:00 PM
- - dvandorn   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 25 2007, 11:38 PM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 07:37 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 26 2007, 07:37 AM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 08:34 AM
- - dvandorn   Oh, I understand -- uranium has a higher potential...   Nov 26 2007, 08:43 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 26 2007, 08:43 AM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 09:08 AM
- - ngunn   Has anyone mentioned 'hydro'power? All you...   Nov 26 2007, 09:49 AM
- - Juramike   Nigel nailed it! There are lots of really goo...   Nov 26 2007, 12:52 PM
- - djellison   I assume this is all 500 years-from-now-Titan-colo...   Nov 26 2007, 01:41 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 26 2007, 01:41 PM)...   Nov 26 2007, 02:03 PM
- - tasp   'Tracking in' materials from outside might...   Nov 26 2007, 03:08 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 26 2007, 10:08 AM) Tita...   Nov 26 2007, 03:47 PM
- - dvandorn   What still concerns me about any operations on Tit...   Nov 27 2007, 05:53 AM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 27 2007, 05:53 AM) ...   Nov 27 2007, 09:34 AM
- - Juramike   The cold is going to be THE big problem facing pro...   Nov 27 2007, 01:30 PM
- - nprev   Odd how the analogies between Venus & Titan ke...   Nov 28 2007, 01:08 AM
- - edstrick   Some of the surface materials may DETONATE on bein...   Nov 28 2007, 09:25 AM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 28 2007, 09:25 AM) ...   Nov 28 2007, 09:44 AM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 28 2007, 04:25 AM) ...   Nov 28 2007, 09:15 PM
|- - rlorenz   Re: stuff blowing up on Titan QUOTE (Juramike ...   Dec 1 2007, 03:00 PM
- - nprev   Good grief... !!! Are you saying that...   Nov 29 2007, 01:04 AM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 28 2007, 08:04 PM) Goo...   Nov 29 2007, 12:42 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Juramike @ Nov 29 2007, 12:42 PM) ...   Nov 29 2007, 12:51 PM
||- - Juramike   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 29 2007, 07:51 AM)...   Nov 29 2007, 03:54 PM
|- - Shaka   QUOTE (Juramike @ Nov 29 2007, 02:42 AM) ...   Nov 29 2007, 07:04 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (Shaka @ Nov 29 2007, 11:04 AM) Are...   Nov 30 2007, 07:51 AM
- - edstrick   "Do you have a reference for this? I poked ar...   Nov 30 2007, 11:45 AM
- - nprev   ...thank you, Ed, but all credit to Shaka for that...   Dec 1 2007, 10:10 AM
- - nprev   Well, assuming for the moment that we're not l...   Dec 1 2007, 03:45 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 1 2007, 03:45 PM) Well...   Dec 2 2007, 02:36 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (David @ Dec 1 2007, 06:36 PM) Ther...   Dec 2 2007, 05:57 AM
|- - David   QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 2 2007, 05:57 AM) True...   Dec 2 2007, 05:19 PM
- - dvandorn   How effectively, given current materials technolog...   Dec 2 2007, 08:35 AM
- - nprev   Ahrrr...har, har, har, David! Yeah, I'm ...   Dec 2 2007, 07:04 PM


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