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Onwards to Uranus and Neptune!
SFJCody
post Jan 12 2008, 09:40 PM
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As soon as MESSENGER gets to Mercury, the most poorly explored planets in the solar system will be Uranus and Neptune. Could this lead to a revival of interest in the ice giants and their retinue, in the same way that the existence of New Horizons is perhaps partly due to the Pluto stamp*?







*via Pluto Fast Flyby and later Pluto Kuiper Express
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nprev
post Feb 14 2008, 04:20 AM
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Again, this is why I wish that there was a 'library' of outer-planet launch opportunities. Seems like trajectory calcs only happen when there is a viable mission proposal like NH in the pipeline; might have the cause & effect relationship backwards here.

If we knew that there were favorable launch opportunities for Uranus & Neptune (even with inner-system gravitational assists) in, say, the late 2020s, then draft mission proposals could start development now. With that much lead time, it's even conceivable that Frontier-class missions would be feasible given assumed technology advances.


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mchan
post Feb 14 2008, 05:27 AM
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[removed in-line quote]

There may or may not be such a library, but there are usually a couple or more papers each year at the AIAA/AAS Astrodynamics conference that discuss trajectories for future missions to places all over the solar system. Probably >95% of these come to naught but some folks are having fun cranking out the plots.

Not sure what is gained by a stretched development cycle. There is the risk that product of earlier development efforts be obsolete or difficult to support when launch date comes around.
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ugordan
post Feb 14 2008, 09:28 AM
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There really is no need for a launch opportunity library for the outer solar system if you want to go from A to C via B. As long as B and C are on the "same side" of the solar system there'll probably be an extended gravity assist trajectory with a varying efficiency over a couple of years. Jupiter would typically be your B body and from then on tweaking the launch date is a piece of cake if you have constraints on launch energy, launch date and/or arrival velocity. These sorts of calculations can be done on demand in a matter of minutes I figure.

More complex slingshot trajectories (involving say Jupiter AND Saturn) to get to Uranus or Neptune will occur rare enough that it's probably no use predicting them that far into the future. Furthermore, they usually impose bigger trajectory constraints which then constrain the slingshot gains. It might prove more efficient to use just an aggressive Jupiter flyby to catapult yourself outward than trying to fly by both J and S for what can turn out to be a weaker boost in the end.


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kwp
post Feb 14 2008, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 14 2008, 01:28 AM) *
As long as B and C are on the "same side" of the solar system there'll probably be an extended gravity assist trajectory with a varying efficiency over a couple of years. Jupiter would typically be your B body and from then on tweaking the launch date is a piece of cake if you have constraints on launch energy, launch date and/or arrival velocity. These sorts of calculations can be done on demand in a matter of minutes I figure.


Since this is a three body problem (spacecraft, Jupiter, Sun), I believe there is no closed, analytical solution to the problem of finding the best trajectory. I have thus assumed that it is done via Monte Carlo simulations. Alternatively, while there is no analytical solution, there might be good approximations. I'm hoping one of our resident experts will weight in and tell me how slingshot trajectories are calculated, and how computationally intensive the process is.

-Kevin
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ugordan
post Feb 14 2008, 05:25 PM
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I believe trajectory search and optimization software nowadays uses Keplerian orbits and patched conics to find plausible/optimum trajectories (and things like impact parameter or miss distance during flybys) and then when a "conceptual" trajectory is selected, it's precisely worked out by numerical integration and taking into accounts other factors such as solar light pressure, etc. That last part might be iterative and computationally more expensive, but it's all within reach of modern computers.


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Posts in this topic
- SFJCody   Onwards to Uranus and Neptune!   Jan 12 2008, 09:40 PM
- - tedstryk   QUOTE (SFJCody @ Jan 12 2008, 09:40 PM) A...   Jan 12 2008, 10:01 PM
|- - J.J.   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jan 12 2008, 04:01 PM) ...   Jan 13 2008, 02:52 PM
- - vjkane   There is the opportunity, brought up in another th...   Jan 13 2008, 12:12 AM
|- - cawest   QUOTE (vjkane @ Jan 13 2008, 01:12 AM) Th...   Feb 18 2008, 04:35 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (cawest @ Feb 18 2008, 05:35 AM) yo...   Feb 18 2008, 08:55 AM
|- - cawest   QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 18 2008, 09:55 AM) W...   Feb 19 2008, 04:45 AM
- - tasp   "Economics engineering' seemed to be the ...   Jan 13 2008, 12:31 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Does anyone have a link to any of the JSN proposal...   Jan 13 2008, 02:32 AM
- - climber   Do you think this: http://planetary.org/blog/artic...   Jan 13 2008, 06:00 AM
- - mchan   Re: JSNK mission. Front this more as a Saturn pro...   Jan 13 2008, 09:53 AM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (mchan @ Jan 13 2008, 09:53 AM) Re:...   Jan 13 2008, 06:16 PM
- - Greg Hullender   How much of the cost of one of these missions is t...   Jan 13 2008, 06:18 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Jan 13 2008, 10:40 PM
|- - djellison   I would consider aerocapture an enabling technolog...   Jan 13 2008, 10:55 PM
|- - Planet X   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jan 13 2008, 04:40 PM) ...   Jan 14 2008, 03:08 PM
- - CAP-Team   I think they should build two spacecraft, and send...   Jan 13 2008, 11:11 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (CAP-Team @ Jan 14 2008, 12:11...   Jan 13 2008, 11:18 PM
- - nprev   You know if anyone's done a serious study on a...   Jan 13 2008, 11:40 PM
- - vjkane   Neptune has been ranked as a higher priority as ra...   Jan 14 2008, 04:35 PM
- - Greg Hullender   I get 16 years for the Hohmann to Uranus, but just...   Jan 14 2008, 05:48 PM
|- - Del Palmer   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jan 14 2008, 05:4...   Jan 14 2008, 07:12 PM
- - Jyril   But it would have missed Ida and Gaspra, and the c...   Jan 14 2008, 10:40 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (Jyril @ Jan 14 2008, 11:40 PM) and...   Jan 14 2008, 10:54 PM
||- - Jyril   QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 15 2008, 12:54 AM) I...   Jan 14 2008, 11:04 PM
||- - ugordan   QUOTE (Jyril @ Jan 15 2008, 12:04 AM) How...   Jan 14 2008, 11:06 PM
|- - tedstryk   Yes, but during the post-Challenger delay and repl...   Jan 15 2008, 12:54 AM
|- - Toma B   QUOTE (Jyril @ Jan 15 2008, 01:40 AM) On ...   Jan 15 2008, 09:02 AM
- - tasp   IIRC, the Galileo Jupiter trajectory provided by t...   Jan 15 2008, 06:08 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Uh, I hope they didn't plan to open the main a...   Jan 15 2008, 02:32 PM
|- - Toma B   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jan 15 2008, 05:3...   Jan 16 2008, 07:49 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Actually, I think you're right. The only reas...   Jan 16 2008, 04:29 PM
- - Mariner9   Some years ago at a JPL open house I spoke with o...   Jan 16 2008, 09:51 PM
- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 19 2008, 08:54 AM
- - nprev   Uh...say what?! We haven't launched a Gali...   Jan 19 2008, 09:05 AM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Jan 19 2008, 09:14 AM
|- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 19 2008, 09:34 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (Gladstoner @ Jan 19 2008, 01:34 AM...   Jan 19 2008, 10:18 AM
||- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 19 2008, 11:00 AM
||- - Mark6   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 19 2008, 11:18 AM) No ...   Feb 25 2008, 02:00 AM
||- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 25 2008, 04:34 AM
||- - Mark6   QUOTE (JRehling @ Feb 25 2008, 05:34 AM) ...   Feb 25 2008, 01:25 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (Gladstoner @ Jan 19 2008, 04:34 AM...   Jan 19 2008, 03:46 PM
- - Jyril   Voyager 2 was only able to visit Uranus and Neptun...   Jan 19 2008, 10:26 AM
- - Jyril   One thing should be remembered when discussing abo...   Jan 19 2008, 02:22 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Jan 20 2008, 07:15 AM
- - mps   QUOTE (Gladstoner @ Jan 19 2008, 01:00 PM...   Jan 19 2008, 02:50 PM
|- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 19 2008, 08:30 PM
- - nprev   Come to that, Voyager itself was a scoped-down ver...   Jan 19 2008, 04:18 PM
- - dvandorn   You know, Nick, unlike a lot of the people here, y...   Jan 19 2008, 04:57 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jan 19 2008, 08:57 AM) ...   Jan 19 2008, 05:41 PM
- - Greg Hullender   Nice account of the history of the Grand Tour proj...   Jan 19 2008, 06:54 PM
- - nprev   Well, don't we all, though? Sad fact of the ...   Jan 19 2008, 09:54 PM
- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 20 2008, 07:38 AM
- - edstrick   "...I'll always think of them as Mariners...   Jan 21 2008, 10:19 AM
|- - tedstryk   While imaging systems have certainly improved, Voy...   Jan 21 2008, 07:06 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Jan 21 2008, 07:56 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jan 21 2008, 11:56 AM) ...   Feb 7 2008, 04:18 PM
- - nprev   Dou you think that Alan will hate me if I privatel...   Jan 21 2008, 06:22 PM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 21 2008, 12:22 PM) Dou...   Jan 22 2008, 06:11 AM
- - edstrick   "I'd argue that Galileo was Mariner 13 an...   Jan 22 2008, 10:19 AM
- - MarcF   After the proposal of a New Horizons-like mission ...   Feb 6 2008, 09:37 PM
- - Big_Gazza   Oh Great Maker, let it be so.... (for the recor...   Feb 7 2008, 10:33 AM
|- - ugordan   To me, any new mission to Neptune that isn't a...   Feb 7 2008, 11:00 AM
|- - Doc   QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 7 2008, 02:00 PM) To...   Feb 7 2008, 11:24 AM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 7 2008, 12:00 PM) An...   Feb 7 2008, 03:45 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 8 2008, 07:55 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (JRehling @ Feb 8 2008, 08:55 PM) I...   Feb 8 2008, 08:37 PM
|- - tedstryk   I think that Uranus has a bigger problem. The bla...   Feb 8 2008, 10:10 PM
- - mchan   Unfortunately, any mission with Uranus as primary ...   Feb 9 2008, 06:36 AM
|- - tedstryk   Neptune also has the advantage of being the most d...   Feb 9 2008, 06:20 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 11 2008, 06:40 PM
- - nprev   Heh, heh...I see that some of our more distinguish...   Feb 11 2008, 09:21 PM
|- - kwp   QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 11 2008, 02:21 PM) Tri...   Feb 11 2008, 11:08 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (kwp @ Feb 11 2008, 11:08 PM) Five?...   Feb 11 2008, 11:13 PM
- - nprev   I was counting Titan; the atmosphere is extremely ...   Feb 12 2008, 04:32 AM
- - Greg Hullender   I still wish I could see a breakdown of costs. I ...   Feb 12 2008, 04:47 AM
- - nprev   Again, this is why I wish that there was a 'li...   Feb 14 2008, 04:20 AM
|- - mchan   [removed in-line quote] There may or may not be s...   Feb 14 2008, 05:27 AM
|- - ugordan   There really is no need for a launch opportunity l...   Feb 14 2008, 09:28 AM
|- - kwp   QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 14 2008, 01:28 AM) A...   Feb 14 2008, 05:02 PM
|- - ugordan   I believe trajectory search and optimization softw...   Feb 14 2008, 05:25 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 14 2008, 08:17 PM
- - simonbp   This has got me thinking about if you could pull o...   Feb 17 2008, 08:17 PM
|- - tasp   QUOTE (simonbp @ Feb 17 2008, 02:17 PM) T...   Feb 18 2008, 02:55 PM
- - Greg Hullender   I think the problem with launching a Neptune and U...   Feb 18 2008, 05:08 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 18 2008, 07:15 PM
- - Greg Hullender   I thought about that, but I think the trouble is t...   Feb 19 2008, 03:03 AM
- - Greg Hullender   How does that follow? You'd clearly have less...   Feb 19 2008, 04:26 PM
- - simonbp   Well then drop the second vehicle and fly the one ...   Feb 20 2008, 06:26 AM
- - Greg Hullender   I hear you. I'd love to see a serious proposa...   Feb 21 2008, 12:42 AM
- - Big_Gazza   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Feb 21 2008, 11:4...   Feb 21 2008, 01:14 PM
|- - Greg Hullender   QUOTE (Big_Gazza @ Feb 21 2008, 05:14 AM)...   Feb 21 2008, 04:27 PM
- - edstrick   "Sedna would be a somewhat more appealing tar...   Feb 25 2008, 06:12 AM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 25 2008, 06:16 PM
- - nprev   Yeah, the LSST will undoubtedly provide a LOT of s...   Feb 25 2008, 06:57 PM
- - laurele   "So we should find any Sednas (now the 5th la...   Feb 26 2008, 07:00 AM
- - edstrick   Sedna is between what were supposed to be KB orbit...   Feb 26 2008, 08:37 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Mike Brown has sometimes called Sedna an "Inn...   Feb 26 2008, 06:44 PM
- - nprev   I just had a probably very silly idea, and would l...   Feb 26 2008, 07:57 PM
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