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Mars Sample Return
Rakhir
post Apr 7 2006, 07:32 AM
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Next phase reached in definition of Mars Sample Return mission

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMJAGNFGLE_index_0.html
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dvandorn
post Feb 22 2008, 06:00 AM
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Well, here's another thought -- instead of relying solely on Mars Orbit Rendezvous (MOR) to collect up all of your separately-launched samples, why not add to this with an element of Mars Surface Rendezvous (MSR)?

It seems to me that the most challenging part of this architecture, both to land on Mars and to get back up off of it again, is the ascent vehicle.

If you want to sample six types of terrain, would it make sense to land six ascent vehicles and then go hunt their easter eggs in Mars orbit, using up tremendous amounts of propellants in rendezvous maneuvers? Or would it make *more* sense to land only two ascent vehicles, each of which is loaded with samples from three different rovers? (I'm thinking that it *must* be easier and cheaper to design, build and fly two MAVs which can each place 30 kilos of samples into orbit than it is to fly six such vehicles which can each loft 5 kilos of samples.) Yeah, you'd "bunch up" each set of three rover sites into something like 100-km circles around each MAV (assuming your rovers can drive as far as 50 km to deliver their samples), but that seems a small price to pay. Besides, there must be many locations on Mars where you can access several different and interesting geological units within a 100-km circle.

Granted, you'd be betting that your rovers would be able to navigate to your ascent vehicles. But again, success could be a graded event -- if only one of your ascent vehicles worked, or if only one or two rovers were able to deposit samples in each, you'd still be looking at a pretty successful mission.

And you'd only need enough fuel in your Earth return/orbiter vehicle to make two rendezvous maneuvers, not six. That could be a truly substantial mass savings.

Yes, we're talking about spending something similar to what Apollo cost just to get 50 or 60 kilos of Mars back to Earth -- at least four major Ares V-type launches, probably more, and a *lot* of spacecraft all operating at once cost a lot of money. But it's a fraction of what putting men on Mars will cost, and a lot of people would argue it's scientifically justifiable.

-the other Doug


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JRehling
post Feb 22 2008, 08:12 AM
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Posts in this topic
- Rakhir   Mars Sample Return   Apr 7 2006, 07:32 AM
- - nprev   I get your point, JR. In all fairness, though, the...   Jul 26 2007, 09:26 PM
- - Pavel   I think you missed the "far into the future...   Jul 26 2007, 09:42 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Jul 27 2007, 09:01 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jul 27 2007, 05:01 PM) ...   Jul 29 2007, 02:42 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Aug 9 2007, 04:37 AM
- - Pavel   Mars is also special because it the easiest extrat...   Jul 27 2007, 10:26 PM
- - spdf   A question here: If you have a ~30-40 kg small sat...   Aug 1 2007, 03:55 AM
|- - ElkGroveDan   QUOTE (spdf @ Jul 31 2007, 07:55 PM) A qu...   Aug 1 2007, 04:16 AM
- - helvick   You can find some of my back of the envelope calcu...   Aug 1 2007, 06:40 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (helvick @ Jul 31 2007, 11:40 PM) A...   Aug 5 2007, 01:45 AM
- - monitorlizard   I'm probably going to get my head handed to me...   Aug 17 2007, 08:01 AM
- - djellison   Well - yes - carnage indeed. Instead of a 5kg lit...   Aug 17 2007, 08:29 AM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 21 2008, 09:21 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (JRehling @ Feb 21 2008, 09:21 PM) ...   Feb 21 2008, 09:53 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 23 2008, 12:31 AM
- - monitorlizard   Thanks, Doug. I knew I was going to be defeated o...   Aug 17 2007, 09:03 AM
- - djellison   It's not 'defeated' - I mean, there...   Aug 17 2007, 09:11 AM
- - Cugel   Of course the points Doug mentions are valid and p...   Aug 17 2007, 09:27 AM
- - djellison   I think a sample cache cannister would have a smal...   Aug 17 2007, 09:36 AM
- - Cugel   A cube-sat? Hmmm, I believe at Delft University (H...   Aug 17 2007, 02:05 PM
- - djellison   Cubesats are a well established and popular platfo...   Aug 17 2007, 02:28 PM
- - Cugel   So I guess the 'cannister' could look some...   Aug 18 2007, 01:08 PM
- - nprev   This may be WAY off base, but has anyone considere...   Aug 19 2007, 04:09 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (nprev @ Aug 18 2007, 09:09 PM) eve...   Oct 18 2007, 08:37 PM
- - The Messenger   Good question. Solid fuels have a great track reco...   Aug 19 2007, 05:37 AM
|- - tty   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Aug 19 2007, 07:37...   Aug 19 2007, 07:01 PM
- - djellison   Or the CONTOUR kick stage Doug   Aug 19 2007, 07:48 PM
- - Jim from NSF.com   Or the two HS-376's on PAM's of STS 41-B ...   Aug 20 2007, 11:36 AM
- - nprev   Hmm. Doug & Jim, if you had to shoot from the ...   Aug 21 2007, 02:52 AM
- - John Whitehead   Here are some comments about "how to get off ...   Sep 19 2007, 12:07 AM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Sep 18 2007, 08:0...   Oct 16 2007, 11:09 AM
- - monitorlizard   mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/Announcements/Stern_MEPAG_Summa...   Oct 14 2007, 02:15 PM
- - John Whitehead   Thanks to monitorlizard for pointing out the Sep24...   Oct 16 2007, 03:25 AM
- - monitorlizard   "There's essentially nothing out there th...   Oct 16 2007, 12:34 PM
- - monitorlizard   Rats! I see I'm off by a factor of ten in...   Oct 16 2007, 01:07 PM
- - John Whitehead   "Jim from NSF.com" noted earlier today t...   Oct 16 2007, 11:50 PM
- - nprev   It seems that for sake of economy and simplicity a...   Oct 17 2007, 12:16 AM
- - monitorlizard   I concede now that I was way off with the ASAT ide...   Oct 17 2007, 12:00 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (monitorlizard @ Oct 17 2007, 01:00...   Oct 17 2007, 01:10 PM
- - John Whitehead   You're right, nprev, that a solid first stage ...   Oct 17 2007, 06:51 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Oct 17 2007, 02:5...   Oct 18 2007, 12:34 AM
||- - John Whitehead   QUOTE (Jim from NSF.com @ Oct 18 2007, 12...   Oct 19 2007, 01:10 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Oct 17 2007, 11:5...   Oct 18 2007, 01:21 AM
|- - John Whitehead   QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 18 2007, 01:21 AM) Joh...   Oct 18 2007, 01:41 AM
|- - tty   QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Oct 18 2007, 03:4...   Oct 18 2007, 08:35 AM
|- - John Whitehead   QUOTE (tty @ Oct 18 2007, 08:35 AM) That ...   Oct 18 2007, 11:42 PM
- - nprev   Thanks, John. Hmm...sounds like a real challenge ...   Oct 18 2007, 01:51 AM
- - hendric   There are some hybrid rockets, that have a solid f...   Oct 18 2007, 09:44 PM
- - nprev   Hate to even bring this up, but it sure seems like...   Oct 19 2007, 12:59 AM
|- - John Whitehead   QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 19 2007, 12:59 AM) Hat...   Oct 19 2007, 01:26 AM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Oct 19 2007, 05:30 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 19 2007, 01:59 AM) a h...   Oct 19 2007, 07:27 AM
|- - Mark Adler   QUOTE (djellison @ Oct 19 2007, 12:27 AM)...   Nov 4 2007, 11:52 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Mark Adler @ Nov 4 2007, 11:52 PM)...   Nov 5 2007, 07:59 AM
- - ElkGroveDan   And wouldn't you know it, I bet there isn...   Nov 5 2007, 02:19 AM
- - dvandorn   I dunno, Dan -- the last MSR concept I saw (back i...   Nov 5 2007, 07:04 AM
|- - John Whitehead   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 5 2007, 07:04 AM) ....   Nov 8 2007, 01:54 AM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Nov 7 2007, 08:54...   Nov 8 2007, 08:09 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 8 2007, 12:09 AM) T...   Nov 8 2007, 02:44 PM
|- - John Whitehead   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 8 2007, 08:09 AM) ....   Nov 8 2007, 08:04 PM
- - PhilCo126   Well, don't want to start any debates but reme...   Nov 5 2007, 11:12 AM
|- - ElkGroveDan   QUOTE (PhilCo126 @ Nov 5 2007, 03:12 AM) ...   Nov 5 2007, 03:11 PM
- - PhilCo126   Indeed an awkard looking spacecraft and this ...   Nov 5 2007, 07:46 PM
- - nprev   Might be worth considering & contrasting US ...   Nov 6 2007, 02:08 AM
|- - John Whitehead   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 6 2007, 02:08 AM) Migh...   Nov 7 2007, 11:09 PM
|- - AndyG   QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Nov 7 2007, 11:09...   Nov 8 2007, 09:43 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (AndyG @ Nov 8 2007, 01:43 AM) I...   Nov 8 2007, 02:28 PM
- - nprev   Fascinating & ingenious; really doing more wit...   Nov 8 2007, 01:31 AM
|- - John Whitehead   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 8 2007, 01:31 AM) ...i...   Nov 8 2007, 02:27 AM
- - algorimancer   There's been discussion elsewhere of the conce...   Nov 8 2007, 02:28 PM
|- - John Whitehead   QUOTE (algorimancer @ Nov 8 2007, 02:28 P...   Nov 8 2007, 08:27 PM
|- - algorimancer   QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Nov 8 2007, 02:27...   Nov 9 2007, 02:39 PM
- - nprev   Understood. KISS has to be the guiding principle h...   Nov 9 2007, 03:05 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 8 2007, 07:05 PM) KISS...   Nov 9 2007, 04:53 AM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Nov 12 2007, 08:10 PM
||- - YesRushGen   QUOTE (JRehling @ Nov 12 2007, 03:10 PM) ...   Nov 13 2007, 03:46 PM
|- - gndonald   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Nov 9 2007, 01:53 PM)...   Dec 6 2007, 01:40 PM
- - hendric   What about using a coilgun to give the payload an ...   Nov 9 2007, 10:47 PM
- - tty   Even without the heat a take-off from Venus is alm...   Nov 14 2007, 11:13 PM
- - Cugel   International Group Plans Strategy For Mars Sample...   Dec 21 2007, 01:14 PM
- - nprev   Thanks, Cugel. I like the extensive internatio...   Dec 21 2007, 01:24 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 21 2007, 01:24 PM) I l...   Dec 22 2007, 05:02 PM
- - John Whitehead   Some 'current events' which indicate an in...   Jan 15 2008, 11:52 PM
|- - tty   QUOTE (John Whitehead @ Jan 16 2008, 12:5...   Jan 16 2008, 07:23 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Jan 16 2008, 07:41 PM
- - monitorlizard   Of course, nothing can compete with a well documen...   Jan 19 2008, 12:37 AM
- - edstrick   I think, maybe it was pointered to from here, that...   Jan 19 2008, 01:29 PM
- - dvandorn   Well, here's another thought -- instead of rel...   Feb 22 2008, 06:00 AM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 22 2008, 08:12 AM
- - dvandorn   Well -- in re rendezvous issues, my thoughts come ...   Feb 22 2008, 04:29 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Feb 22 2008, 11:29 AM) ...   Feb 22 2008, 06:00 PM
- - edstrick   An essential ingredient in my utterly unofficial v...   Feb 23 2008, 11:04 AM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (edstrick @ Feb 23 2008, 11:04 AM) ...   Feb 23 2008, 03:59 PM
- - vjkane   The journal Science just published a lengthy artic...   Feb 29 2008, 01:56 AM
- - mchan   Thanks for the summary of the article, vjkane. Er...   Mar 1 2008, 06:44 AM
- - nprev   Thanks also for the excellent summary, VJ; much ap...   Mar 1 2008, 07:22 AM
- - Juramike   A really naive question: Could you do a remote mo...   Mar 29 2008, 03:00 PM
- - Greg Hullender   Controlled by someone on Earth or controlled by so...   Mar 29 2008, 05:46 PM
- - Juramike   Automated sequence. Program sequence uploaded fro...   Mar 29 2008, 05:59 PM
- - djellison   What would be the requirements ( size, mass etc ) ...   Mar 29 2008, 06:06 PM
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