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Onwards to Uranus and Neptune!
SFJCody
post Jan 12 2008, 09:40 PM
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As soon as MESSENGER gets to Mercury, the most poorly explored planets in the solar system will be Uranus and Neptune. Could this lead to a revival of interest in the ice giants and their retinue, in the same way that the existence of New Horizons is perhaps partly due to the Pluto stamp*?







*via Pluto Fast Flyby and later Pluto Kuiper Express
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dvandorn
post Feb 27 2008, 04:05 AM
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My understanding has always been that gravity assists work by robbing a body of a bit of its rotational velocity by flying along with its rotating gravity field. The Sun rotates -- why ought this process not work with the Sun?

-the other Doug


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“The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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ermar
post Feb 27 2008, 05:18 AM
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Actually, this is not how gravity assists work - rather, they take advantage of an orbiting body's orbital motion relative to background space. Say a planet is orbiting with a speed V relative to the sun and a spacecraft approaches it (from the planet's point of view) from one side with a speed v. From the planet's perspective, the spacecraft ought to have the same relative magnitude of speed leaving it as approaching it, so the spacecraft leaves with speed v too. From, say, the Sun's point of view, though, the spacecraft approached the planet (which was moving at speed V) with some other speed z; by the time the spacecraft has left the vicinity of the planet, the planet has "dragged it along," and some significant fraction of the planet's orbital speed V is added to the original spacecraft velocity. (This can also be used to decelerate the spacecraft, too, by setting up the initial encounter differently.) The bottom line is that gravity assists depend on the mass and orbital velocity of the "assisting" body alone (robbing it of orbital, not rotational momentum), and have nothing to do with its rotation rate.
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JRehling
post Feb 27 2008, 06:57 AM
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Little physics tidbit: Imagine a spacecraft orbiting the Sun in an elliptical orbit, and imagine that it (for the time being) will not pass closely enough to any planet for them to have a significant pull on it.

The sum of the gravitational potential energy of the craft and its kinetic energy is utterly constant. (This is true of circular, parabolic, and hyperbolic trajectories as well.) What it loses in kinetic energy from perihelion to aphelion (or at any other time) is exactly equal to what it gains in gravitational potential energy. And this will be true forever.

So imagine a spacecraft that has left Earth, and that proceeds in to some closer distance to the Sun, then passes on the other side back to (and then past) the orbit of the Earth. (Again, assume that Venus and Mercury don't get in the way.) Between launch (once it gets sufficiently outside the Earth's sphere of influence) and perihelion, what it gains in kinetic energy will be lost, exactly, in gravitational potential energy. Between perihelion and crossing, again, the Earth's orbit, what it lost in kinetic energy will be gained, exactly, in gravitational potential energy. And moreover, because gravitational potential energy is determined by the distance from the Sun, the kinetic energy of the craft when it crosses the Earth's orbit on the way out will be EXACTLY what it was when it left the Earth in the first place. You gain a net sum of nothing. You may as well have just launched in the outward direction in the first place (at some different launch window).
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Posts in this topic
- SFJCody   Onwards to Uranus and Neptune!   Jan 12 2008, 09:40 PM
- - vjkane   Neptune has been ranked as a higher priority as ra...   Jan 14 2008, 04:35 PM
- - Greg Hullender   I get 16 years for the Hohmann to Uranus, but just...   Jan 14 2008, 05:48 PM
|- - Del Palmer   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jan 14 2008, 05:4...   Jan 14 2008, 07:12 PM
- - Jyril   But it would have missed Ida and Gaspra, and the c...   Jan 14 2008, 10:40 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (Jyril @ Jan 14 2008, 11:40 PM) and...   Jan 14 2008, 10:54 PM
||- - Jyril   QUOTE (ugordan @ Jan 15 2008, 12:54 AM) I...   Jan 14 2008, 11:04 PM
||- - ugordan   QUOTE (Jyril @ Jan 15 2008, 12:04 AM) How...   Jan 14 2008, 11:06 PM
|- - tedstryk   Yes, but during the post-Challenger delay and repl...   Jan 15 2008, 12:54 AM
|- - Toma B   QUOTE (Jyril @ Jan 15 2008, 01:40 AM) On ...   Jan 15 2008, 09:02 AM
- - tasp   IIRC, the Galileo Jupiter trajectory provided by t...   Jan 15 2008, 06:08 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Uh, I hope they didn't plan to open the main a...   Jan 15 2008, 02:32 PM
|- - Toma B   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Jan 15 2008, 05:3...   Jan 16 2008, 07:49 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Actually, I think you're right. The only reas...   Jan 16 2008, 04:29 PM
- - Mariner9   Some years ago at a JPL open house I spoke with o...   Jan 16 2008, 09:51 PM
- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 19 2008, 08:54 AM
- - nprev   Uh...say what?! We haven't launched a Gali...   Jan 19 2008, 09:05 AM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Jan 19 2008, 09:14 AM
|- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 19 2008, 09:34 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (Gladstoner @ Jan 19 2008, 01:34 AM...   Jan 19 2008, 10:18 AM
||- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 19 2008, 11:00 AM
||- - Mark6   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 19 2008, 11:18 AM) No ...   Feb 25 2008, 02:00 AM
||- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 25 2008, 04:34 AM
||- - Mark6   QUOTE (JRehling @ Feb 25 2008, 05:34 AM) ...   Feb 25 2008, 01:25 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (Gladstoner @ Jan 19 2008, 04:34 AM...   Jan 19 2008, 03:46 PM
- - Jyril   Voyager 2 was only able to visit Uranus and Neptun...   Jan 19 2008, 10:26 AM
- - Jyril   One thing should be remembered when discussing abo...   Jan 19 2008, 02:22 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Jan 20 2008, 07:15 AM
- - mps   QUOTE (Gladstoner @ Jan 19 2008, 01:00 PM...   Jan 19 2008, 02:50 PM
|- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 19 2008, 08:30 PM
- - nprev   Come to that, Voyager itself was a scoped-down ver...   Jan 19 2008, 04:18 PM
- - dvandorn   You know, Nick, unlike a lot of the people here, y...   Jan 19 2008, 04:57 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jan 19 2008, 08:57 AM) ...   Jan 19 2008, 05:41 PM
- - Greg Hullender   Nice account of the history of the Grand Tour proj...   Jan 19 2008, 06:54 PM
- - nprev   Well, don't we all, though? Sad fact of the ...   Jan 19 2008, 09:54 PM
- - Gladstoner   .   Jan 20 2008, 07:38 AM
- - edstrick   "...I'll always think of them as Mariners...   Jan 21 2008, 10:19 AM
|- - tedstryk   While imaging systems have certainly improved, Voy...   Jan 21 2008, 07:06 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Jan 21 2008, 07:56 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jan 21 2008, 11:56 AM) ...   Feb 7 2008, 04:18 PM
- - nprev   Dou you think that Alan will hate me if I privatel...   Jan 21 2008, 06:22 PM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (nprev @ Jan 21 2008, 12:22 PM) Dou...   Jan 22 2008, 06:11 AM
- - edstrick   "I'd argue that Galileo was Mariner 13 an...   Jan 22 2008, 10:19 AM
- - MarcF   After the proposal of a New Horizons-like mission ...   Feb 6 2008, 09:37 PM
- - Big_Gazza   Oh Great Maker, let it be so.... (for the recor...   Feb 7 2008, 10:33 AM
|- - ugordan   To me, any new mission to Neptune that isn't a...   Feb 7 2008, 11:00 AM
|- - Doc   QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 7 2008, 02:00 PM) To...   Feb 7 2008, 11:24 AM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 7 2008, 12:00 PM) An...   Feb 7 2008, 03:45 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 8 2008, 07:55 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (JRehling @ Feb 8 2008, 08:55 PM) I...   Feb 8 2008, 08:37 PM
|- - tedstryk   I think that Uranus has a bigger problem. The bla...   Feb 8 2008, 10:10 PM
- - mchan   Unfortunately, any mission with Uranus as primary ...   Feb 9 2008, 06:36 AM
|- - tedstryk   Neptune also has the advantage of being the most d...   Feb 9 2008, 06:20 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 11 2008, 06:40 PM
- - nprev   Heh, heh...I see that some of our more distinguish...   Feb 11 2008, 09:21 PM
|- - kwp   QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 11 2008, 02:21 PM) Tri...   Feb 11 2008, 11:08 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (kwp @ Feb 11 2008, 11:08 PM) Five?...   Feb 11 2008, 11:13 PM
- - nprev   I was counting Titan; the atmosphere is extremely ...   Feb 12 2008, 04:32 AM
- - Greg Hullender   I still wish I could see a breakdown of costs. I ...   Feb 12 2008, 04:47 AM
- - nprev   Again, this is why I wish that there was a 'li...   Feb 14 2008, 04:20 AM
|- - mchan   [removed in-line quote] There may or may not be s...   Feb 14 2008, 05:27 AM
|- - ugordan   There really is no need for a launch opportunity l...   Feb 14 2008, 09:28 AM
|- - kwp   QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 14 2008, 01:28 AM) A...   Feb 14 2008, 05:02 PM
|- - ugordan   I believe trajectory search and optimization softw...   Feb 14 2008, 05:25 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 14 2008, 08:17 PM
- - simonbp   This has got me thinking about if you could pull o...   Feb 17 2008, 08:17 PM
|- - tasp   QUOTE (simonbp @ Feb 17 2008, 02:17 PM) T...   Feb 18 2008, 02:55 PM
- - Greg Hullender   I think the problem with launching a Neptune and U...   Feb 18 2008, 05:08 PM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 18 2008, 07:15 PM
- - Greg Hullender   I thought about that, but I think the trouble is t...   Feb 19 2008, 03:03 AM
- - Greg Hullender   How does that follow? You'd clearly have less...   Feb 19 2008, 04:26 PM
- - simonbp   Well then drop the second vehicle and fly the one ...   Feb 20 2008, 06:26 AM
- - Greg Hullender   I hear you. I'd love to see a serious proposa...   Feb 21 2008, 12:42 AM
- - Big_Gazza   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Feb 21 2008, 11:4...   Feb 21 2008, 01:14 PM
|- - Greg Hullender   QUOTE (Big_Gazza @ Feb 21 2008, 05:14 AM)...   Feb 21 2008, 04:27 PM
- - edstrick   "Sedna would be a somewhat more appealing tar...   Feb 25 2008, 06:12 AM
|- - JRehling   [...]   Feb 25 2008, 06:16 PM
- - nprev   Yeah, the LSST will undoubtedly provide a LOT of s...   Feb 25 2008, 06:57 PM
- - laurele   "So we should find any Sednas (now the 5th la...   Feb 26 2008, 07:00 AM
- - edstrick   Sedna is between what were supposed to be KB orbit...   Feb 26 2008, 08:37 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Mike Brown has sometimes called Sedna an "Inn...   Feb 26 2008, 06:44 PM
- - nprev   I just had a probably very silly idea, and would l...   Feb 26 2008, 07:57 PM
|- - JRehling   "Gravity assist" by definition involves ...   Feb 26 2008, 09:36 PM
|- - Mark6   QUOTE (JRehling @ Feb 26 2008, 09:36 PM) ...   Feb 26 2008, 09:57 PM
- - ngunn   You could try it this way: http://www.physics.uci....   Feb 26 2008, 08:04 PM
- - ilbasso   Also, as Star Trek IV showed us, is that by going ...   Feb 26 2008, 10:13 PM
- - ngunn   The Sun Diver idea is not a 'gravity assist...   Feb 26 2008, 11:03 PM
- - dvandorn   My understanding has always been that gravity assi...   Feb 27 2008, 04:05 AM
|- - ermar   Actually, this is not how gravity assists work - r...   Feb 27 2008, 05:18 AM
|- - JRehling   Little physics tidbit: Imagine a spacecraft orbiti...   Feb 27 2008, 06:57 AM
- - Juramike   OK. Just to be nitpicky, wouldn't some minis...   Feb 27 2008, 07:18 AM
|- - JRehling   Tidal effects are harder to model than your typica...   Feb 27 2008, 09:35 PM
- - Greg Hullender   Or are you expecting to get a boost from the relat...   Feb 28 2008, 03:22 AM
- - nprev   Well, clearly, JR answered the question in its fun...   Feb 28 2008, 03:34 AM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (nprev @ Feb 27 2008, 10:34 PM) Wel...   Feb 29 2008, 02:59 PM
- - nprev   I get it now; thanks very much for that clarificat...   Feb 29 2008, 04:28 PM
- - punkboi   Emily posted an interesting blog on Planetary.org ...   Nov 8 2008, 02:56 AM
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