Rovers - He Or She? |
Rovers - He Or She? |
Jun 21 2005, 07:41 AM
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 877 Joined: 7-March 05 From: Switzerland Member No.: 186 |
I'm still confused about the gender of Spirit and Oppy! What the consent about? If Spirit female (so I think) then make it sense to keep quiet about her age and make she younger
No kidding! I would like to know which personal pronoun (she, her or he, his etc.) I have to use by Spirit's and Oppy's gender definitely? -------------------- |
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Jun 23 2005, 04:55 AM
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#2
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3419 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Minneapolis, MN, USA Member No.: 15 |
I'm sorry, I guess I haven't stated my point of view about "irrationality" clearly.
I find the *requirement* of assigning a gender identity to each and every noun in a language an irrational approach to communication. There is simply no rationality that I can see to the requirement of assigning a male or female identity to a chair, a keyboard, a leg, a cloud, a window frame, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum, when those objects do not have any intrinsic gender. The Romance languages require such a set of assignations because of the way in which the *article* part of speech (in English, the words "a" and "the") is used. In every Romance language, you must use "la" as the definite article for feminine-assigned nouns, and "le" for masculine-assigned nouns. The indefinite article, "a" in English, varies a little more, but in French the masculine is "un" and the feminine is "une". You cannot just say "the" and let it go at that. A proper English translation of a French phrase commonly translated as "The sky is blue" would have to be worded something like "The sky, she is blue." Because the word you use for the definite article "the" either has to call the sky he or she -- there are no other choices. In what manner does this add to the amount of information conveyed, or the quality of that information? It conveys a cultural set of assumptions about the gender identities of inanimate objects, is all I can see that it does. And is it just me, or is there something a little *odd* about making cultural assumptions as to the gender attributes of inanimate objects which have no intrinsic gender? And not just a few objects -- every object for which the language has a noun. As a French student in high school, the most absolutely *absurd* thing we tried to absorb was the whole issue of which nouns were feminine and which were masculine, since there is almost *never* an apparent rhyme or reason for the specific assignation. If someone can explain to me in rational terms why it is in any way poetic *or* rational that a pencil *must* be referred to as a male object, while a chair *must* be referred to as a female object, I'll be happy to consider their arguments -- I generally have an open mind. But, from the point of view of someone who grew up with a language that lets you use gender-neutral articles and pronouns for inanimate objects which *have* no intrinsic gender, the requirement for such assignments seems irrational. And, by the way -- who sits around in Paris deciding what gender attribute get assigned to new nouns? I mean, is a personal computer male or female, and who decided which it was? And what genders are assigned to the individual components -- the keyboard, the monitor, the mouse, the CPU, etc.? And do the French make the same gender attributes for these new nouns as the Italians or the Spaniards, or are all of the new nouns for new things that never existed 100 years ago getting completely garbled between the various Romance languages these days? -the other Doug p.s. -- You'll remember that this thread began when someone asked which gender-related pronouns we should use for the rovers, and I chimed in with the feminine. Yes, that's sort of counter to my arguments above. But my feeling about the gender of the rovers is that there are traditions that govern certain things, and the naval tradition of giving ships (both of war and of exploration) the feminine gender attribute ought to apply here. I'll go along with tradition -- but I still think that languages whose very structure require giving every inanimate object in Creation a gender identity are at least *slightly* irrational... -------------------- “The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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Guest_Richard Trigaux_* |
Jun 23 2005, 07:01 AM
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#3
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QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jun 23 2005, 04:55 AM) As a French student in high school, the most absolutely *absurd* thing we tried to absorb was the whole issue of which nouns were feminine and which were masculine, since there is almost *never* an apparent rhyme or reason for the specific assignation. We Frenchs are at ease with our gendered pronouns, and there are very few people mistaking with this. But I understand that english people are not at ease: when I tried to learn german, I was completelly lost in the three genders (male, feminine, neutral). So each language has its difficulties, that we absorb easily when, child, we learn our first language. But when we learn a second language, it is much more difficult. QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jun 23 2005, 04:55 AM) If someone can explain to me in rational terms why it is in any way poetic *or* rational that a pencil *must* be referred to as a male object, while a chair *must* be referred to as a female object, I'll be happy to consider their arguments -- I generally have an open mind. It is simply not a matter of rationality. Poetry and rationality are simply two different domains. I think 99% of French would disagree to abandon our gendered pronouns, even for the sake of rationalizing our language. Simply we love it as it is. As to explain "why" such thing is male or female, it is a complex matter of etymology, history, etc. I even not know who started this. QUOTE (dvandorn @ Jun 23 2005, 04:55 AM) And, by the way -- who sits around in Paris deciding what gender attribute get assigned to new nouns? I mean, is a personal computer male or female, and who decided which it was? And what genders are assigned to the individual components -- the keyboard, the monitor, the mouse, the CPU, etc.? And do the French make the same gender attributes for these new nouns as the Italians or the Spaniards, or are all of the new nouns for new things that never existed 100 years ago getting completely garbled between the various Romance languages these days? -"clavier" (keyboard) is an ancient word coming from organ churchs, I do not know why it is male, perhaps from some machism as it is a control device. -"ecran" (monitor) is also an ancient word, we simply re-used it in place of just francizing the english word. -"souris" (mouse) was already feminine. -But words adapted from the english (email, microprocesseur...) are nearby alway masculine. "The guy sitting in Paris" is in the same time a good help and a real pain for us. This started during the reign of LouisXIV where there were just too many iddle people in his court, who had nothing else good to do than to decide that the french spoken in the court was "correct french" and all the other variations and languages used in France where "bad french" spoken by "ignorants". This united the country, but was the cause of a tremendous cultural loss. Today there is still the "Academie Française", who by law decides what is good french language or not. And about the genders to be given to new words (such as "logiciel" for "software" ) they have their own idea: there are nearby only men into this assembly, and they create mostly masculine nouns, even loathing to "feminize" names of professions. So by their fault we are still compelled to say "un juge" (a judge) even if she is a woman. |
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