IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Titan's changing lakes
ngunn
post Jan 29 2009, 07:22 PM
Post #1


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3516
Joined: 4-November 05
From: North Wales
Member No.: 542



Today's big news?
http://ciclops.org/view/5471/CASSINI_FINDS...ILL_TITAN_LAKES

Changes in the south polar region were announced late last year. Is there more to this story now??

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
volcanopele
post Nov 30 2009, 05:53 PM
Post #2


Senior Member
****

Group: Moderator
Posts: 3242
Joined: 11-February 04
From: Tucson, AZ
Member No.: 23



Where are the south polar dry lakes? What do you think those low, flat areas are in the RADAR sar data that match up with ISS dark areas? That being said, the north polar region seems to have more dedicated lake basins while the south pole has mostly opportunistic playas (though there are a few of those up north too).

As for Kraken Mare, again, I think it is still plausible that Mezzoramia is the south polar version of that sea.


--------------------
&@^^!% Jim! I'm a geologist, not a physicist!
The Gish Bar Times - A Blog all about Jupiter's Moon Io
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jason W Barnes
post Nov 30 2009, 07:05 PM
Post #3


Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 131
Joined: 30-August 06
From: Moscow, Idaho
Member No.: 1086



QUOTE (volcanopele @ Nov 30 2009, 10:53 AM) *
Where are the south polar dry lakes? What do you think those low, flat areas are in the RADAR sar data that match up with ISS dark areas?


I think they're dark areas. They could be anything.

If the ethane content of Kraken Mare is substantial, then there's just no way to move it around on seasonal timescales. Oded's Milankovic timescales, maybe.

- Jason

PS -- I can't even get a copy of this paper -- I guess we're not subscribed to Nature Geoscience here for some reason?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ngunn
post Nov 30 2009, 09:06 PM
Post #4


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3516
Joined: 4-November 05
From: North Wales
Member No.: 542



QUOTE (Jason W Barnes @ Nov 30 2009, 07:05 PM) *
If the ethane content of Kraken Mare is substantial, then there's just no way to move it around


If the lakebeds are porous maybe the ethane doesn't have to move between hemispheres on either timescale. When evaporation concentrates ethane in a lake it may be able to diffuse into the less concentrated subsurface alkanofer. Methane diffusing the other way would return to the lake, ensuring that evaporation could continue until the lake appears dry. Of course on this model you have to move even greater volumes of methane around - to lower not just the lakes but the surrounding alkanofer too.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Juramike
post Nov 30 2009, 09:54 PM
Post #5


Senior Member
****

Group: Moderator
Posts: 2785
Joined: 10-November 06
From: Pasadena, CA
Member No.: 1345



QUOTE (ngunn @ Nov 30 2009, 04:06 PM) *
Of course on this model you have to move even greater volumes of methane around - to lower not just the lakes but the surrounding alkanofer too.


True. But if the subsurface is extremely porous, you may only need to move a small percentage of the overall amount to effect a large change in the base level. Picture a 1 km deep porous bed: 10% change would give you 100 m change in solvent level (ignoring volume of porous material).

So while the absolute amount of methane to move from pole to pole is large, the relative amount compared to the (still unknown) subsurface reservoir could be fractional.


--------------------
Some higher resolution images available at my photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31678681@N07/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- ngunn   Titan's changing lakes   Jan 29 2009, 07:22 PM
- - ngunn   Aah, there's this: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/...   Jan 29 2009, 07:32 PM
- - volcanopele   Here are some the associated graphics: http://pho...   Jan 29 2009, 07:34 PM
- - volcanopele   QUOTE (ngunn @ Jan 29 2009, 12:22 PM) Cha...   Jan 29 2009, 07:35 PM
- - ngunn   That's brilliant, thanks VP.   Jan 29 2009, 07:45 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   I actually much prefer that these press releases c...   Jan 29 2009, 09:11 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (Jason W Barnes @ Jan 29 2009, 09:1...   Jan 30 2009, 02:14 AM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (ngunn @ Jan 29 2009, 08:14 PM) Whi...   Jan 30 2009, 05:33 PM
|- - ngunn   That is indeed most helpful. Although I'm stil...   Jan 30 2009, 08:16 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (ngunn @ Jan 30 2009, 03:16 PM) Wha...   Feb 4 2009, 03:36 PM
- - Decepticon   Does anyone have a radar swath overlay-ed of the s...   Feb 2 2009, 10:57 AM
|- - titanicrivers   QUOTE (Decepticon @ Feb 2 2009, 04:57 AM)...   Feb 2 2009, 03:15 PM
- - ngunn   Excellent!!   Feb 4 2009, 09:11 PM
- - nprev   Oh, goodygoodygoody...Santa Ralph hints that a bit...   Feb 5 2009, 12:37 AM
- - Juramike   Bam! There it is! Lorenz et al. LPSC (2...   Feb 7 2009, 04:48 PM
- - ngunn   Brilliant discovery - brilliant paper title! ...   Feb 7 2009, 07:20 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (ngunn @ Feb 7 2009, 02:20 PM) Bril...   Feb 9 2009, 06:22 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Feb 9 2009, 12:22 PM) Bu...   Feb 10 2009, 01:52 AM
- - ngunn   Taking this together with earlier VIMS results, ma...   Feb 8 2009, 08:37 AM
- - nprev   Hmm. Sorry to hear that, Ralph; it was indeed a gr...   Feb 9 2009, 07:57 PM
- - ngunn   Or perhaps other 'disadvantaged' topics we...   Feb 9 2009, 09:15 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (ngunn @ Feb 9 2009, 04:15 PM) Perh...   Feb 15 2009, 04:21 AM
- - ngunn   Great - another potentially variable lake property...   Feb 15 2009, 07:51 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   VIMS Ontario Lacus paper is now out in print from ...   Apr 10 2009, 11:32 PM
- - ngunn   A huge thank you (again) for making another fascin...   Apr 11 2009, 07:26 AM
- - titanicrivers   As above. A very readable and yet compelling pape...   Apr 11 2009, 12:28 PM
- - ngunn   Is anybody going to have a go at matching the alti...   Apr 11 2009, 10:04 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (ngunn @ Apr 11 2009, 03:04 PM) Is ...   Apr 12 2009, 06:25 PM
- - HughFromAlice   The variation in the height of the surface of Onta...   Aug 23 2009, 06:08 AM
|- - Gsnorgathon   Hey! I got lucky and got the whole article. (D...   Aug 23 2009, 05:29 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (HughFromAlice @ Aug 23 2009, 01:08...   Aug 23 2009, 06:26 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Aug 23 2009, 07:26 PM) F...   Aug 24 2009, 08:01 AM
- - nprev   It's a fascinating result, Ralph, and clearly ...   Aug 23 2009, 09:08 PM
- - AndyG   Reading this made me think of the artwork by Richa...   Aug 24 2009, 08:26 AM
- - ngunn   BIG changes observed at Ontario Lacus in the 4th a...   Sep 1 2009, 11:24 AM
|- - titanicrivers   QUOTE (ngunn @ Sep 1 2009, 05:24 AM) BIG ...   Sep 1 2009, 12:40 PM
|- - Hungry4info   QUOTE (titanicrivers @ Sep 1 2009, 06:40 ...   Sep 1 2009, 01:15 PM
- - ngunn   Strange, it works for me OK, although it does invo...   Sep 1 2009, 01:34 PM
|- - titanicrivers   QUOTE (ngunn @ Sep 1 2009, 07:34 AM) Stra...   Sep 1 2009, 05:20 PM
|- - HughFromAlice   QUOTE (titanicrivers @ Sep 2 2009, 02:50 ...   Sep 1 2009, 11:30 PM
- - belleraphon1   All.. I found I had to outside the forum and go ...   Sep 1 2009, 01:54 PM
- - belleraphon1   And, of course, I copy the wrong abstract... sorry...   Sep 1 2009, 01:57 PM
- - remcook   How well do the ISS and RADAR 'shorelines...   Sep 1 2009, 02:36 PM
- - ngunn   I have to admit I'm baffled by the numbers rig...   Sep 1 2009, 03:09 PM
- - Sunspot   So when will us common folk get to see the T57/T58...   Sep 1 2009, 03:40 PM
- - ngunn   I've edited my previous post 42 to correct a n...   Sep 1 2009, 06:18 PM
- - volcanopele   Well, hopefully they will broadcast the oral sessi...   Sep 1 2009, 11:34 PM
- - ngunn   This presentation will compare apparent shorelines...   Sep 3 2009, 11:12 AM
- - Olvegg   NASA Cassini Radar Observes Seasonal Change in Tit...   Oct 7 2009, 06:11 PM
|- - titanicrivers   QUOTE (Olvegg @ Oct 7 2009, 01:11 PM) NAS...   Oct 8 2009, 03:32 AM
- - ngunn   Spectacular changes - and so plain to see! (No...   Oct 7 2009, 08:38 PM
- - ngunn   I am trying to post the VIMS image of the bottom r...   Oct 7 2009, 09:50 PM
- - volcanopele   I think the ISS/VIMS/RADAR story is coming along n...   Oct 7 2009, 10:02 PM
|- - Webscientist   QUOTE (volcanopele @ Oct 8 2009, 12:02 AM...   Oct 8 2009, 08:54 PM
- - ngunn   Link from remcook: http://www.sciencedirect.com/s...   Oct 7 2009, 10:28 PM
- - volcanopele   I guess my comment is that I think they have it ba...   Oct 7 2009, 11:58 PM
- - Sunspot   How wide is thay channel where it appears to open ...   Oct 8 2009, 07:53 AM
- - volcanopele   The landing site might depend on the season when t...   Oct 8 2009, 09:03 PM
- - nprev   Hmm. It does seem as if the 'desert' equat...   Oct 8 2009, 09:13 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 8 2009, 10:13 PM) Huyg...   Oct 8 2009, 09:53 PM
- - volcanopele   Yeah, and storms are not unheard of at the latitud...   Oct 8 2009, 09:18 PM
- - nprev   Gotcha. I'm definitely thinking flash floods a...   Oct 8 2009, 09:36 PM
- - djellison   Some posts have been removed from this thread, as ...   Oct 9 2009, 04:33 PM
- - titanicrivers   Check out Photojournal http://photojournal.jpl.nas...   Oct 10 2009, 03:01 PM
- - ngunn   VIMS sees specular reflection from Kraken Mare: Q...   Oct 25 2009, 09:48 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (ngunn @ Oct 25 2009, 02:48 PM) On ...   Oct 26 2009, 02:00 PM
- - ngunn   And there's so much more - here: (struggling ...   Oct 25 2009, 10:50 PM
- - ngunn   Personal anecdote: perhaps not many people remembe...   Oct 26 2009, 12:01 AM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (ngunn @ Oct 25 2009, 05:01 PM) The...   Oct 26 2009, 05:32 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (Jason W Barnes @ Oct 26 2009, 01:3...   Nov 1 2009, 03:11 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Nov 1 2009, 08:11 AM) As...   Nov 2 2009, 06:54 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (Jason W Barnes @ Nov 2 2009, 01:54...   Nov 6 2009, 08:58 PM
|- - volcanopele   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Nov 6 2009, 01:58 PM) Wo...   Nov 6 2009, 09:26 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Nov 6 2009, 01:58 PM) Hm...   Nov 7 2009, 05:54 AM
- - ngunn   Another morsel from the conference abstracts. Any...   Oct 26 2009, 01:34 PM
- - ngunn   Catching the lakeshine: Radar 21st December ...   Oct 26 2009, 02:33 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (ngunn @ Oct 26 2009, 07:33 AM) Cat...   Oct 26 2009, 02:46 PM
- - ngunn   Yeah, you caught the sun's direct reflection a...   Oct 26 2009, 03:04 PM
- - ngunn   Thanks, Jason. Congrats to the team and good luck ...   Oct 27 2009, 12:41 PM
- - ngunn   Excuse a very basic question: would that be one pi...   Nov 1 2009, 07:25 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (ngunn @ Nov 1 2009, 02:25 PM) Excu...   Nov 1 2009, 08:05 PM
||- - ngunn   QUOTE (Juramike @ Nov 1 2009, 08:05 PM) a...   Nov 1 2009, 09:17 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (ngunn @ Nov 1 2009, 12:25 PM) Excu...   Nov 2 2009, 06:56 PM
- - ngunn   Article on seasonal and longer term change: http:/...   Nov 30 2009, 10:53 AM
|- - volcanopele   We shall see. I still think its seasonal.   Nov 30 2009, 05:17 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (volcanopele @ Nov 30 2009, 10:17 A...   Nov 30 2009, 05:37 PM
- - volcanopele   Where are the south polar dry lakes? What do you ...   Nov 30 2009, 05:53 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (volcanopele @ Nov 30 2009, 10:53 A...   Nov 30 2009, 07:05 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (Jason W Barnes @ Nov 30 2009, 07:0...   Nov 30 2009, 09:06 PM
||- - Juramike   QUOTE (ngunn @ Nov 30 2009, 04:06 PM) Of ...   Nov 30 2009, 09:54 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (Jason W Barnes @ Nov 30 2009, 02:0...   Dec 1 2009, 11:23 PM
|- - Jason W Barnes   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Dec 1 2009, 04:23 PM) Ti...   Dec 2 2009, 05:54 PM
- - ngunn   I don't have access to the full paper, but fro...   Nov 30 2009, 06:00 PM
- - Juramike   I really, really, like the idea of the longer term...   Nov 30 2009, 07:51 PM
- - ngunn   I've been checking authors' websites, but ...   Nov 30 2009, 08:32 PM
- - volcanopele   Very nice article! Thanks for the link. Thou...   Nov 30 2009, 08:50 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (volcanopele @ Nov 30 2009, 03:50 P...   Nov 30 2009, 09:46 PM
- - ngunn   Yes. And if the lakes 'breathe' into and o...   Nov 30 2009, 10:27 PM
- - remcook   So, what is new in this paper? The speculation abo...   Dec 2 2009, 08:35 AM
2 Pages V   1 2 >


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 1st November 2024 - 12:01 AM
RULES AND GUIDELINES
Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting.

IMAGE COPYRIGHT
Images posted on UnmannedSpaceflight.com may be copyrighted. Do not reproduce without permission. Read here for further information on space images and copyright.

OPINIONS AND MODERATION
Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators.
SUPPORT THE FORUM
Unmannedspaceflight.com is funded by the Planetary Society. Please consider supporting our work and many other projects by donating to the Society or becoming a member.