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KBO encounters
xtruel
post Aug 2 2008, 12:53 PM
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Hi,

I’m regular follower of NH and I’m also interested in the 2nd leg of the mission, i.e the 2016+ KBOs encounters. Does anyone know when operations about this leg (starting with searching objects of interest with HST or some other earth-based means, I suppose) are expected to begin ?
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Vultur
post Apr 15 2010, 09:15 AM
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The first post in this thread says the search would start in 2010 - has it started yet, or will it be later this year?
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Alan Stern
post Apr 15 2010, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (Vultur @ Apr 15 2010, 10:15 AM) *
The first post in this thread says the search would start in 2010 - has it started yet, or will it be later this year?


Our best imager, LORRI, can resolve the size of an object from roughly 10^5 object diameters away. So for a 100 km object, for example, we have to be w/i 10^7 km just to resolved it; if you want crude shape information, cut that to 10^6 diameters, and if you want "geology," well, better come to approx 30,000 diameters or better. The point here is Crantor and other distant flybys don't yield much of use, so we have not expended effort on them.

As to our KBO search, John Spencer is leading the organizational effort to recruit search teams; Andrew Steffl is helping John. Our plan is to conduct the search in 2011 and 2012, though Scott Shepard at least has already begun.

-Alan
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illexsquid
post Apr 27 2010, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Apr 15 2010, 04:18 AM) *
Our best imager, LORRI, can resolve the size of an object from roughly 10^5 object diameters away. So for a 100 km object, for example, we have to be w/i 10^7 km just to resolved it; if you want crude shape information, cut that to 10^6 diameters, and if you want "geology," well, better come to approx 30,000 diameters or better.

Alan, thanks for the info, but I'm a little confused... I assume that for crude shape information, you mean cut the maximum distance to 106 kilometers, since 106 diameters would be 108 kilometers. But which do you mean for the "geology" figure? 30,000 diameters would be 3 million kilometers for our theoretical 100 km object, which is tough enough, but 30,000 kilometers is more or less a bullseye: better targeting than even Apophis will manage smile.gif . It seems to me you could get at least some worthwhile surface-feature resolution at a greater distance than that. The famous LORRI images of Tvashtar's plume resolved fine details at 2.5 million km. On the other hand, I know that spacecraft (and ground) resources are limited, and you have to be sure you're getting enough meaningful data for any expenditure. Could you give any hints as to when you think it might be worthwhile to observe during one of these flybys?

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Gsnorgathon
post Apr 28 2010, 05:55 PM
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The Tvashtar plume images were taken a lot closer to the sun than any KBO images will be. I imagine blurring due to longer exposure times would reduce resolution at comparable distances.
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john_s
post Apr 28 2010, 07:36 PM
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I'll chip in here. Alan was talking about science at Centaurs that we might fly past on our way to Pluto- none of those will get close enough to be resolved. For the KBO target(s) beyond Pluto, we will deliberately target to get within a few tens of thousands of kilometers or closer- from 20,000 km, for instance, we would get 500 pixels across a 50 km KBO- sufficient to do some serious geology. LORRI can get well-exposed, unsmeared, images at Pluto's distance from the sun (it was designed to do that, of course), and while illumination conditions will be more challenging further out in the Kuiper Belt, there's enough performance margin that we expect to be able to do the same there.

At Crantor's distance, a LORRI pixel is 2000 km across, much bigger than Crantor itself. So there's no hope of getting any shape information.

And to make sure no-one is still confused on this point, we will not be searching for KBOs with NH itself- huge ground-based telescopes with wide-field imagers can do that much better, even though they're stuck at 1 AU.

John
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MahFL
post Apr 20 2011, 02:59 PM
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The Search for KBO's to begin.
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Posts in this topic
- xtruel   KBO encounters   Aug 2 2008, 12:53 PM
- - nprev   Hiya, X. If I remember correctly, the KBO search i...   Aug 2 2008, 01:06 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (nprev @ Aug 2 2008, 01:06 PM) Hiya...   Aug 2 2008, 01:26 PM
|- - Paolo   QUOTE (nprev @ Aug 2 2008, 03:06 PM) Plut...   Aug 2 2008, 03:32 PM
- - nprev   ...our definition of celestial vermin seems to be ...   Aug 2 2008, 04:48 PM
- - xtruel   Thanks for these quick replies Given the tiny ...   Aug 3 2008, 07:36 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Trouble is, it'll take NH almost 10 years to g...   Aug 3 2008, 04:01 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Aug 3 2008, 04:01...   Aug 3 2008, 04:35 PM
- - surreyguy   Is larger necessarily better? Planets (in the hy...   Aug 3 2008, 05:06 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (surreyguy @ Aug 3 2008, 05:06 PM) ...   Aug 3 2008, 05:09 PM
- - nprev   Just out of curiosity, Alan, is encounter relative...   Aug 3 2008, 05:49 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (nprev @ Aug 3 2008, 06:49 PM) Just...   Aug 4 2008, 10:59 AM
- - nprev   Oh, sorry. What I meant is that presumably more da...   Aug 4 2008, 11:10 AM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (nprev @ Aug 4 2008, 11:10 AM) Oh, ...   Aug 4 2008, 01:24 PM
- - surreyguy   Thanks for the correction, Alan. And yes, I shoul...   Aug 4 2008, 06:42 PM
- - tasp   Not sure I am thinking this through correctly, but...   Aug 4 2008, 07:07 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (tasp @ Aug 4 2008, 08:07 PM) Not s...   Aug 4 2008, 07:20 PM
- - tasp   Thanx. I guess we get to work out the statistics ...   Aug 4 2008, 07:47 PM
- - nprev   Alan, what is the search magnitude limit for the h...   Aug 4 2008, 07:49 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (nprev @ Aug 4 2008, 07:49 PM) Alan...   Aug 4 2008, 09:13 PM
- - nprev   THAT is a definite "wow!!!!...   Aug 4 2008, 09:18 PM
- - xtruel   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Aug 3 2008, 06:01...   Aug 5 2008, 04:10 PM
|- - vjkane   QUOTE (xtruel @ Aug 5 2008, 05:10 PM) So ...   Aug 5 2008, 04:38 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (vjkane @ Aug 5 2008, 04:38 PM) The...   Aug 5 2008, 05:39 PM
- - IM4   We have no candidates for close KBO enccounters, b...   Aug 17 2008, 10:41 AM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (IM4 @ Aug 17 2008, 10:41 AM) We ha...   Aug 17 2008, 11:49 AM
|- - IM4   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Aug 17 2008, 11:49 AM...   Aug 17 2008, 03:18 PM
- - Explorer1   Looks like the 'flyby' of Crantor came an...   Apr 14 2010, 04:42 AM
- - Hungry4info   Couldn't blame them if they didn't do anyt...   Apr 14 2010, 01:56 PM
- - Vultur   The first post in this thread says the search woul...   Apr 15 2010, 09:15 AM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (Vultur @ Apr 15 2010, 10:15 AM) Th...   Apr 15 2010, 12:18 PM
|- - illexsquid   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Apr 15 2010, 04:18 AM...   Apr 27 2010, 06:11 PM
|- - Gsnorgathon   The Tvashtar plume images were taken a lot closer ...   Apr 28 2010, 05:55 PM
|- - john_s   I'll chip in here. Alan was talking about sci...   Apr 28 2010, 07:36 PM
|- - MahFL   The Search for KBO's to begin.   Apr 20 2011, 02:59 PM
|- - john_s   Look for another release in a few weeks, describin...   Apr 20 2011, 03:17 PM
|- - dilo   QUOTE (john_s @ Apr 20 2011, 03:17 PM) Lo...   Apr 20 2011, 03:47 PM
- - nprev   Actually, Alan said in this post that the search w...   Apr 15 2010, 09:32 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Yeah, I think the last few times we've asked t...   Apr 15 2010, 04:58 PM
- - Astro0   If we find it, can we name it?! I always thoug...   Feb 22 2011, 11:01 PM
- - nprev   THAT is a rockin' piece of citizen science out...   Feb 23 2011, 01:10 AM
- - hendric   John, That's great news, can't wait to p...   Feb 23 2011, 02:54 PM
- - elakdawalla   It's in beta, still several weeks from launch.   May 8 2011, 04:18 AM
- - NGC3314   What John said - just found out that some of the p...   May 9 2011, 12:18 PM
- - hendric   Just got this in the Zooniverse newsletter. I thi...   May 16 2011, 04:46 PM
- - john_s   Here's an update on how the KBO search is goin...   May 16 2011, 05:20 PM
|- - dilo   Finally we can help you, I am so excited! Jus...   May 16 2011, 09:39 PM
|- - stevesliva   QUOTE (dilo @ May 16 2011, 05:39 PM) Just...   May 16 2011, 11:34 PM
- - john_s   As hendric and others have noted, the beta version...   May 16 2011, 09:56 PM
|- - MahFL   Oh dear I can't use IE7, which is on my work P...   May 17 2011, 12:50 PM
- - john_s   Actually there are no fake objects in the 2004 dat...   May 16 2011, 11:50 PM
- - stevesliva   Thanks john... I saw an old powerpoint of yours wh...   May 17 2011, 12:03 AM
- - hendric   John, Thanks for the update! I was curious,...   May 17 2011, 06:01 AM
|- - john_s   QUOTE (hendric @ May 17 2011, 12:01 AM) J...   May 17 2011, 02:44 PM
- - hendric   Thanks for the reply John. I figured after I sent...   May 17 2011, 03:10 PM
- - tfisher   I can discern 8 parallel, nearly horizontal, rows ...   May 18 2011, 01:56 AM
|- - john_s   QUOTE (tfisher @ May 17 2011, 06:56 PM) I...   May 18 2011, 03:59 AM
- - nprev   John, though this is not a technical commentary, h...   May 18 2011, 02:40 AM
|- - john_s   QUOTE (nprev @ May 17 2011, 07:40 PM) Sug...   May 18 2011, 04:05 AM
- - nprev   Swing and a miss...but knew there had to be a reas...   May 18 2011, 05:02 AM
- - hendric   I figured the black star centers was because of a ...   May 18 2011, 04:30 PM
|- - john_s   QUOTE (hendric @ May 18 2011, 10:30 AM) I...   May 18 2011, 05:22 PM
- - hendric   John, Good to know, I wasn't implying you...   May 18 2011, 07:12 PM
|- - tfisher   QUOTE (hendric @ May 18 2011, 03:12 PM) I...   May 18 2011, 09:55 PM
||- - tfisher   Poking around more at the horizontal artifacts... ...   May 19 2011, 01:46 AM
|- - john_s   Thanks for these examples, Richard and all! Q...   May 19 2011, 04:03 AM
- - hendric   Oh sure, if they're not the same distance. I ...   May 19 2011, 05:53 PM
- - stevesliva   I thought this was a thing of beauty, as far as fi...   May 21 2011, 01:36 AM
- - nprev   Okay, I'll play: I see two, possibly binary. ...   May 21 2011, 03:54 AM
- - tfisher   Are Kuiper belt objects distributed like a belt, o...   May 21 2011, 01:48 PM
|- - john_s   Most KBOs are in a flat disk, like the asteroids (...   May 21 2011, 03:19 PM
- - nprev   John, interim progress report. 238 objects identif...   May 21 2011, 10:36 PM
|- - NickF   QUOTE (nprev @ May 21 2011, 05:36 PM) EDI...   Jun 22 2011, 05:24 PM
- - nprev   Possible bug report: I'm on the road now ...   May 23 2011, 11:57 PM
- - Tman   Hi, that happens because of the last update on Sun...   May 24 2011, 09:34 AM
- - nprev   Sure enough; thanks, T! (Der...there's was...   May 24 2011, 02:07 PM
- - john_s   The Ice Hunters project is now out of beta and is ...   Jun 21 2011, 01:55 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (john_s @ Jun 21 2011, 02:55 PM) Th...   Jun 22 2011, 12:04 AM
- - nprev   Great Godfrey!!! A PI has called for a...   Jun 22 2011, 01:30 AM
- - Sunspot   It's very addictive   Jun 22 2011, 10:16 PM
- - nprev   Yeah, ain't it? I'm over something like 21...   Jun 22 2011, 10:53 PM
- - nprev   Okay, now @ 2257 images with a detection rate of 1...   Jun 25 2011, 09:50 PM
- - Stu   18%? And you haven't shown us a *single* image...   Jun 25 2011, 09:54 PM
- - nprev   <abashed look> I didn't think anyone was...   Jun 25 2011, 10:30 PM
|- - stevesliva   My finding rate is much higher, but the number of ...   Jun 26 2011, 04:24 AM
- - elakdawalla   Ha! I just independently saw that exact same ...   Jun 26 2011, 04:39 AM
- - nprev   Now HERE'S a beauty: one asteroid plus one pos...   Jun 26 2011, 06:09 AM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 26 2011, 02:09 AM) Now...   Jun 26 2011, 09:45 AM
|- - NickF   If we're comparing rates, I've highlighted...   Jun 26 2011, 03:41 PM
- - nprev   Eek! We're heading into an asteroid field ...   Jun 26 2011, 07:06 PM
- - nprev   ...and dig THIS behemoth. Perhaps a TNO rather tha...   Jun 26 2011, 07:08 PM
- - nprev   Last one of the day: A two-fer? EDIT: Please disr...   Jun 26 2011, 07:37 PM
- - nprev   Sorry, but I HAD to post this. Satellite trail? NE...   Jun 26 2011, 09:24 PM
- - Marz   Great stuff!!! I've gone through ...   Jun 27 2011, 12:03 AM
- - nprev   Thanks for that comment, Marz. Been wondering if I...   Jun 27 2011, 12:13 AM
|- - NickF   QUOTE (nprev @ Jun 26 2011, 06:13 PM) Got...   Jun 27 2011, 02:46 AM
- - nprev   I'm thinkin' maybe just this one time, Nic...   Jun 27 2011, 03:31 AM
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