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InSight Surface Operations, 26 Nov 2018- 21 Dec 2022
nprev
post Nov 26 2018, 08:20 PM
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Congratulations to the InSight team on a successful landing! We'll discuss the remainder of the mission here. smile.gif


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A few will take this knowledge and use this power of a dream realized as a force for change, an impetus for further discovery to make less ancient dreams real.
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Gerald
post Dec 18 2020, 02:09 AM
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In case the next hammering attempt won't work in the intended way, and the mole would otherwise be given up, I'd suggest to further narrow down the root cause of the presumed bouncing.

One activity would be an attempt to verify with the scoop that there actually isn't a pebble, bedrock, or another crust layer, i.e. perform some digging. The goal is to ensure that the behaviour of the mole is unambigously caused by the property of the fine-grained soil phases. A first digging campaign would be performed in a safe distance from the mole to study the general layering structure of the soil. If this doesn't find obvious obstacles, digging next to the mole may be considered. This latter location would also be the only option to dig, if the upper duricrust turns out that it can't be penetrated by the scoop alone.

Another conceivable explanation to be ruled out is whether the density of the mole is less than the density of the soil, which would cause bouyancy.

Other experiments would repeat (cautious) hammering with different inclinations of the mole in order to get responses within a more homogenious soil environment. The bouncing might be caused by the vertical gradient of some property of the soil. If such a gradient exists, it would be smaller for a less inclined mole, with a possibly favorable change of its behaviour, but at least with additional data about inclination-dependent soil behaviour. A less inclined mole would also be able to discriminate between bouyancy (parallel to the gravity field lines) and bouncing (parallel to the hammering vector).

Since I'm not an expert in rheology, but this is a broad field of ongoing research, a student or post-doc in rheology would certainly give more advice than I could.
As usual, any experiments should be sorted by increasing risk. And I'm of course aware that things are much easier said than done.
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Brian Swift
post Dec 18 2020, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE (Gerald @ Dec 17 2020, 06:09 PM) *
And I'm of course aware that things are much easier said than done.

I'll speculate the termination of further investigation is primarily a matter personnel scheduling and budget.
Implementing these ideas would require a non-trivial amount of engineering time. And if "the system" is working
well, those engineers are already scheduled to be working on and receiving their funding from other projects in 2021.
I imagine that some amount of the project's reserves budget has already been consumed by mole engineering work done in 2020.
And reducing a projects reserves budget is another form of risk.

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stevesliva
post Dec 18 2020, 04:48 PM
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Yeah, soil investigations would be an XM sort of thing. But it might not pencil out.

Primary mission was to be 709 sols and we're past 730? Wonder what's up there.

Different topic.
In addition to the Nature article with the "final try" comment, I notice there's a JPL release from a couple days ago, which doesn't say much about the mole:
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7802
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Gerald
post Dec 19 2020, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (stevesliva @ Dec 18 2020, 06:48 PM) *
Yeah, soil investigations would be an XM sort of thing. But it might not pencil out.

With an idealized tilt angle of ~53° between the pointing of the mole and the surface normal, a 5 m teather would still be long enough to reach a nominal 3 m depth required to accomplish the primary science objective (take the triangle defined by the Pythagorean triple 3³+4²=5²).
Within those constraints, this would presumably maximize the friction between the mole and the soil beneath induced by the weight of the mole.
So, this approach would probably feasible without an entirely new proposal.
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Posts in this topic
- nprev   InSight Surface Operations   Nov 26 2018, 08:20 PM
- - Gerald   They are obviously aware of the risks. But it seem...   Sep 26 2020, 10:51 PM
- - fredk   I'm not sure what you mean by elastic reaction...   Sep 26 2020, 11:35 PM
- - Gerald   In the simplest case, even with friction, if you a...   Sep 27 2020, 01:33 AM
- - fredk   Well, according to the diagram in that July 7th po...   Sep 27 2020, 02:34 AM
- - Gerald   If we believe that assumption, then we have two pl...   Sep 27 2020, 03:06 AM
|- - JRehling   The distinction between elastic and inelastic coll...   Sep 27 2020, 04:19 AM
- - Gerald   Thanks! So, the mole in the soil seems to be c...   Sep 27 2020, 12:06 PM
- - Steve G   It's amazing how little we still know about Ma...   Sep 29 2020, 11:37 AM
|- - Gerald   QUOTE (Steve G @ Sep 29 2020, 01:37 PM) I...   Oct 1 2020, 05:12 PM
|- - HSchirmer   QUOTE (Gerald)Triboelectricity ... might make dust...   Oct 3 2020, 02:03 AM
- - Phil Stooke   https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/13109789110...   Sep 29 2020, 10:36 PM
- - PaulH51   Blink GIF of processed / cropped IDC images from s...   Sep 29 2020, 11:12 PM
- - PaulH51   Blink GIF of processed / cropped IDC images from s...   Oct 1 2020, 01:22 PM
|- - JRehling   It feels like reading tea leaves here, because we ...   Oct 1 2020, 04:48 PM
- - Gerald   I couldn't help to dig a little deeper in lite...   Oct 2 2020, 11:11 AM
- - Gerald   I started with an electrostatically stabilized sus...   Oct 3 2020, 10:52 AM
- - PaulH51   Arm / Scoop activity during Sol 659: Simple blinki...   Oct 4 2020, 05:38 AM
- - Phil Stooke   InSight has now been on Mars for a full Martian ye...   Oct 13 2020, 05:26 PM
- - Phil Stooke   More soil scraping over the pit on sol 673. P...   Oct 18 2020, 06:49 PM
|- - PaulH51   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Oct 19 2020, 02:49 A...   Oct 18 2020, 07:45 PM
||- - stevesliva   QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Oct 18 2020, 02:45 PM) T...   Oct 20 2020, 02:55 PM
|- - Brian Swift   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Oct 18 2020, 11:49 A...   Oct 20 2020, 11:45 PM
|- - JRehling   Would it still count as "unmanned" space...   Oct 21 2020, 03:17 PM
|- - propguy   QUOTE (JRehling @ Oct 21 2020, 09:17 AM) ...   Oct 21 2020, 05:27 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Nice story! Phil   Oct 21 2020, 08:21 PM
- - PaulH51   Low power generation is affecting surface operatio...   Oct 23 2020, 09:09 AM
|- - JRehling   The decline in power that Paul posts is similar in...   Oct 23 2020, 03:21 PM
|- - PaulM   QUOTE (JRehling @ Oct 23 2020, 04:21 PM) ...   Oct 30 2020, 07:26 PM
- - Phil Stooke   You could do the analysis at any stage but the res...   Nov 2 2020, 06:04 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Re: RISE results: here: https://ui.adsabs.harv...   Nov 2 2020, 07:11 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Re: RISE results: here: https://ui.adsabs.harv...   Nov 2 2020, 07:15 PM
- - antipode   Finally! Good news. P   Nov 2 2020, 09:24 PM
- - PaulH51   Sol 700 arm activity animated GIF (8 IDC frames). ...   Nov 15 2020, 11:14 AM
- - stevesliva   I missed the NASA article from 1 month ago that fo...   Nov 17 2020, 03:54 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Return to a weekly cadence to speed things up? On...   Nov 22 2020, 07:30 PM
- - Phil Stooke   No, no change in the 2 week operations. On sol 72...   Dec 5 2020, 09:58 PM
|- - PaulH51   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Dec 6 2020, 05:58 AM...   Dec 5 2020, 11:01 PM
- - PaulH51   'End Game for HP3' In the last paragraph ...   Dec 15 2020, 10:07 PM
|- - MahFL   QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Dec 15 2020, 10:07 PM) ...   Dec 16 2020, 06:04 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Yes, indeed. Phil   Dec 16 2020, 07:34 AM
- - stevesliva   Well, the "no digging till 2021" is now ...   Dec 16 2020, 03:04 PM
|- - JRehling   As a baseball fan, I'm familiar with the state...   Dec 16 2020, 04:17 PM
- - Gerald   The rheology of the Martian soil appears to differ...   Dec 16 2020, 07:10 PM
|- - JRehling   Some of the speculation from the team included the...   Dec 16 2020, 07:27 PM
- - Gerald   Shouldn't we try to squeeze out as much scienc...   Dec 17 2020, 06:26 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Gerald @ Dec 17 2020, 10:26 AM) Sh...   Dec 17 2020, 10:59 PM
- - Gerald   In case the next hammering attempt won't work ...   Dec 18 2020, 02:09 AM
|- - Brian Swift   QUOTE (Gerald @ Dec 17 2020, 06:09 PM) An...   Dec 18 2020, 07:48 AM
|- - stevesliva   Yeah, soil investigations would be an XM sort of t...   Dec 18 2020, 04:48 PM
|- - Gerald   QUOTE (stevesliva @ Dec 18 2020, 06:48 PM...   Dec 19 2020, 05:41 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Gerald @ Dec 19 2020, 09:41 AM) Wi...   Dec 19 2020, 06:21 PM
- - Gerald   First, it's required that the mole bounces bac...   Dec 19 2020, 07:23 PM
|- - JRehling   The vigorous interventions you describe, Gerald, a...   Dec 19 2020, 08:37 PM
- - Explorer1   Unfortunately, just because something is physicall...   Dec 19 2020, 09:58 PM
- - Gerald   I mostly agree with what you say. But if the addre...   Dec 19 2020, 11:31 PM
|- - JRehling   I don't know how close Insight is to end-of-li...   Dec 20 2020, 05:39 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 20 2020, 09:39 AM) ...   Dec 20 2020, 11:35 PM
- - PaulH51   Arm activity above the mole on Sol 734 (December 2...   Dec 20 2020, 11:21 PM
- - Gerald   Power generation by the solar arrays is described ...   Dec 20 2020, 11:44 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Gerald @ Dec 20 2020, 03:44 PM) Th...   Dec 21 2020, 12:02 AM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (Gerald @ Dec 20 2020, 06:44 PM) Po...   Dec 21 2020, 02:52 AM
- - Gerald   Thanks a lot, Ralph! Your paper helps signific...   Dec 21 2020, 12:18 PM
|- - Mars Attack   QUOTE (Gerald @ Dec 21 2020, 01:18 PM) Th...   Dec 22 2020, 02:20 AM
|- - PaulH51   QUOTE (Mars Attack @ Dec 22 2020, 10:20 A...   Dec 22 2020, 02:44 AM
- - Gerald   During the previous hammering effort it was unclea...   Dec 22 2020, 06:14 AM
- - Phil Stooke   There is a new paper by Mariah Baker (Smithsonian ...   Dec 30 2020, 10:43 PM
- - vjkane   The results of the 2020 Senior Review and NASA...   Jan 8 2021, 04:59 PM
|- - stevesliva   'High' option does mention regolith studie...   Jan 8 2021, 07:11 PM
- - Explorer1   What are the 'mechanical sequences' to dis...   Jan 8 2021, 06:42 PM
- - Phil Stooke   The scoop would not scrape the panels to remove du...   Jan 8 2021, 10:09 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jan 8 2021, 05:09 PM...   Jan 8 2021, 11:09 PM
- - Explorer1   Yeah, tapping the sides and waiting for a good gus...   Jan 8 2021, 11:03 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Thanks. It's good to have that perspective. ...   Jan 9 2021, 03:21 AM
- - Phil Stooke   We just had another round of hammering. I don...   Jan 9 2021, 10:50 PM
- - stevesliva   https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-extends-...ienc...   Jan 13 2021, 11:48 PM
- - Paolo   well this is sad but not unexpected https://twitte...   Jan 14 2021, 04:53 PM
- - Antdoghalo   RIP Mole! We cheered for your success through ...   Jan 14 2021, 06:39 PM
- - nprev   Always disappointing when a new technique or techn...   Jan 15 2021, 03:01 AM
- - PaulH51   The InSight PDS was updated earlier this month. I ...   Jan 18 2021, 01:17 AM
- - PaulH51   The HP3 instrument logbook has been updated today ...   Feb 4 2021, 12:06 PM
- - Phil Stooke   In other and maybe better news: https://agupubs.o...   Feb 5 2021, 12:10 AM
- - nprev   Posts about impactors/penetrators moved here.   Feb 5 2021, 08:14 AM
- - PaulH51   New Release (February 12, 2021) InSight Is Meeting...   Feb 13 2021, 04:07 AM
- - PaulH51   Animated GIF: Pulsing the solar array motors that ...   Feb 14 2021, 09:12 PM
|- - PaulM   QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Feb 14 2021, 10:12 PM) A...   Feb 17 2021, 07:50 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (PaulM @ Feb 17 2021, 11:50 AM) I w...   Feb 17 2021, 09:20 PM
- - Explorer1   QUOTE It would be the obvious destination for an I...   Feb 17 2021, 08:06 PM
- - Steve G   Hopefully we will learn soon if InSight's Seis...   Feb 19 2021, 02:47 PM
|- - xflare   QUOTE (Steve G @ Feb 19 2021, 02:47 PM) H...   Feb 19 2021, 03:28 PM
- - Don1   Insight will present at the upcoming LPSC. Some fi...   Feb 23 2021, 10:34 AM
|- - JRehling   Thanks for putting those together, Don. It's n...   Feb 23 2021, 08:53 PM
- - Quetzalcoatl   Hi' A tweet that leaves us hungry Jonatha...   Feb 24 2021, 11:01 AM
- - PaulH51   2 days - 2 scoops! Preparations for SEIS teth...   Mar 1 2021, 06:48 AM
|- - MahFL   QUOTE (PaulH51 @ Mar 1 2021, 07:48 AM) 2 ...   Mar 1 2021, 08:27 AM
|- - PaulH51   QUOTE (MahFL @ Mar 1 2021, 04:27 PM) Look...   Mar 1 2021, 10:27 AM
- - Phil Stooke   The second trench, on sol 803, was made with three...   Mar 2 2021, 09:37 PM
- - PaulH51   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Mar 3 2021, 05:37 AM...   Mar 2 2021, 09:48 PM
13 Pages V  « < 9 10 11 12 13 >


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