Invoking The Voyagers Against Id |
Invoking The Voyagers Against Id |
Oct 24 2005, 03:04 PM
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 2454 Joined: 8-July 05 From: NGC 5907 Member No.: 430 |
Cornell President Rawlings Condemns Intelligent Design
Drawing from sources ranging from Cornell's founders to Voyager space missions, Interim President Hunter R. Rawlings III condemned the push to teach intelligent design in public schools Friday. The attack came during the president's State of... http://www.cornellsun.com/vnews/display.v/...4/435c7762cf891 "The desire to understand the world and the desire to reform it are the two great engines of progress." - Bertrand Russell -------------------- "After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance. I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard, and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft." - Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853 |
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Oct 24 2005, 03:46 PM
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Founder Group: Chairman Posts: 14433 Joined: 8-February 04 Member No.: 1 |
Eeek - not sure I like where this thread will end up going, but let's see what happens. Play nice boys
Doug |
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Oct 30 2005, 11:41 AM
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Member Group: Members Posts: 710 Joined: 28-September 04 Member No.: 99 |
QUOTE (djellison @ Oct 24 2005, 03:46 PM) Is this nice enough? Story Once upon a time there was an astonomer. Peering Long and hard through his telescope, he noticed strange lines on the planet Mars. To him, this network of straight lines looked very artificial and could only be of Intelligent Design! The people loved the many Books he wrote on the Designers' grand plan to fight a drought of Biblical proportions. Years later scientists discovered that the astronomer had been tricked by his own eyes. The lines were an optical illusion! No canals on the martian surface! Only craters. The scientists said the craters were made by meteors, not Martians. The people were very disappointed, because they liked the story in the astronomer's Books better. But then some of the people started to see a pattern in the Rows of Craters and Hills. And some of these hills were shaped like pyramids and even a face! Surely this could only have been Designed by Intelligent martians! The scientists tried to explain that these shapes often form naturally when hills Erode, but the people didn't want to believe that and accused the scientists of hiding the truth! They wanted science books to include the real story of how the face was Created. The scientists said they didn't like the idea of teaching pseudoscience and resisted. The people were very Creative and claimed the martians used Erosion to Create the pyramids. The people and scientists continued arguing for years. But in the end, history proved the people right. In 2032 the remains of a obviously very Intelligent martian were found on Mars: |
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Guest_Richard Trigaux_* |
Oct 30 2005, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (OWW @ Oct 30 2005, 11:41 AM) Is this nice enough? [i]Story Once upon a time there was an astonomer. Peering Long and hard through his telescope, he noticed strange lines on the planet Mars. To him, this network of straight lines looked very artificial and could only be of Intelligent Design! The people loved the many Books he wrote on the Designers' grand plan to fight a drought of Biblical proportions. Thank you OWW and helvick I though I was alone on this topic The problem of Mars channels is not the same thing than Intelligen Design. Intelligent Design is the idea that the world was designed by a divine intelligence, a theory which is not yet proven today, so that it is a bit of irrationnal to "believe" in it. But it still remains as a bit of intuition. May the poet be able to find things that science cannot? The problem of Mars channels was though at the epoch as an evidence of Intelligent Life on Mars, an hypothesis which was legitimate one century ago, but which is completelly disproven today, as the channels turned to be only optical illusions. The face on Mars was never seriously considered as an evidence of Intelligent Life on Mars: it is a nice and poetical curiosity. I like very much the story of His Noodliness, as it explains well how dogmatic thinking justifies itself, what is sometimes called circular thinking. But it do not really settle many questions such as a purpose of life, purpose that we have to find in our hearts, for instance loving each others. Dogmatic materialists do not see this (or laugh at it to protect themselves of taking any commitment). Sensitive people see this. Honest people try to put this in practice. Dogmatic religious nuts grasp on it. Doug, is my sandcastle nicer than OWW's??? |
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Oct 30 2005, 02:38 PM
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 3419 Joined: 9-February 04 From: Minneapolis, MN, USA Member No.: 15 |
QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Oct 30 2005, 09:16 AM) ...Intelligent Design is the idea that the world was designed by a divine intelligence, a theory which is not yet proven today, so that it is a bit of irrationnal to "believe" in it... Now, here is the crux of the issue. Intelligent Design is *not* a theory. It is a statement of *faith*. And, by definition, a statement of faith *cannot* be proven. It must be taken as truth, even though it is not possible to prove. As such, ID is not, cannot be, and will never be a theory. It must either be accepted on faith, or not. As it can *never* be proven (as with any matter of faith), it cannot *ever* undergo tests of proof, and therefore cannot be a theory. Period. End of discussion. Now, the reason why some people here in the U.S. want to have ID taught as science, when absolutely no stretch of scientific process can make it such -- that's another matter. The reasons behind it are the stuff of what Doug doesn't want this board degenerating into... i.e., politics. But, no matter how energetically some people may wave their arms in support of their point, ID simply is not, cannot be, and never will be a scientific theory, or *any* kind of theory -- not as long as its basis is a matter of faith. -the other Doug -------------------- “The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
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Oct 30 2005, 04:43 PM
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Dublin Correspondent Group: Admin Posts: 1799 Joined: 28-March 05 From: Celbridge, Ireland Member No.: 220 |
QUOTE (dvandorn @ Oct 30 2005, 03:38 PM) But, no matter how energetically some people may wave their arms in support of their point, ID simply is not, cannot be, and never will be a scientific theory, or *any* kind of theory -- not as long as its basis is a matter of faith. Amen brother. Doug's probably gonna slap me for this one, but what the heck. This is why the "discussions" about ID are not debate but rather dogmatic position statements like this. There is no possibility of debate in the subject of treating ID as a scientific anything because debate is a rationalist activity and belief just doesn't qualify for entry. The confusing part for me is why true believers should care in the first place. I tend to believe that the problem is that they don't. Believe that is. More on this later. This is just todays flavour of the power struggle between blbilical literalists and rationalists and much of it is nothing new (see Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" for one side of the argument from 230 years ago). When you strip away the specifics you can see that the argument is about the very lucretive property that is the minds of future generations. The proponents of both sides know that their future relies on taking ownership of the development of the future minds of the nation. The question that needs to be asked openly is whether rationalist or literalist minds are what the country wants. Evolution is just the specific target of the day. It's worth wondering why many religions don't have a problem with accepting and co-existing with scientific rationalism while some seem to have the denial of rationality as a commandment; this seems to be a particular problem for some protestant christian sects. The problem those particular religions have appears to be that they don't genuinely rely on faith but on distorted rationalism (as seen in "arguments" for Creatinism\ID) and a reliance on the absolute veracity of "The Book". As such the foundations of those religions are far too easily threatened by real rational argument. The proponents claim to "believe" but also seem to need constant proof and re-assurance hence the struggle to eliminate sources of doubt particularly in the minds of the young. I've also always found it interesting to look at the relationship between organised religion and government. It is rarely a pretty sight when the former has an significant influence in the latter but that is a separate argument. As a final thought - for any one who might have been offended - I have to further risk eternal damnation by quoting the immortal* words of Bill Hicks. QUOTE ... "Hey buddy, we're christians and we didn't like what you said". I said "Then forgive me". Later on, when I was hanging from the tree... * Immortal in a hopeful rather than literal sense. |
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