Invoking The Voyagers Against Id Options

[ljk4-1]

Cornell President Rawlings Condemns Intelligent Design

Drawing from sources ranging from Cornell's founders to Voyager
space missions, Interim President Hunter R. Rawlings III condemned
the push to teach intelligent design in public schools Friday. The
attack came during the president's State of...

http://www.cornellsun.com/vnews/display.v/...4/435c7762cf891


"The desire to understand the world and the desire to reform it are the two great engines of progress." - Bertrand Russell

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

I would add that, to somewhat recenter the topic on something more or less related to space, that some purpose (if not ID) could be incorporated into cosmological scenarios.

Today most accepted cosmology theories study how the physical universe evolves from an intitial state (the singularity at the big bang). But they do not tell why this singularity exists. I say exists in the present tense, as, at this moment, time as we experience it has no meaning, so the question is "why the universe exists" and not "why it appeared". (to be exact some speculations are made about "before the Big bang", most of them predicting that many universe can exist).

Today accepted theories about life evolution say that this evolution is an auto-formative process, which can create complex structures from mere simplicity. This goes straight against the idea of Intelligent Design, as self-formative processes can generate structures which much ressemble very clever engineer designs for far reached purposes. So thinking, like literalists do, that life forms were designed by God is today really very naïve and it is understandable that it makes biology scientists angry.

So if there is really a God and a purpose, it is not to be seek into biology processes. It is obviously something deeply related to consciousness, meaning of life and eventually happiness. Is this matter related to cosmology and the existence of this universe? Do only exist universes where life evolves toward consciousness and wisdom, or do exist any universes with no life? If an universe contains no scientists to observe it, does it exist?

[helvick]

So thinking, like literalists do, that life forms were designed by God is today really very naïve and it is understandable that it makes biology scientists angry. 

So if there is really a God and a purpose, it is not to be seek into biology processes. It is obviously something deeply related to consciousness, meaning of life and eventually happiness. Is this matter related to cosmology and the existence of this universe? Do only exist universes where life evolves toward consciousness and wisdom, or do exist any universes with no life? If an universe contains no scientists to observe it, does it exist?

There certainly are extremely intriguing questions facing us that are so difficult to encompass that they can only be dealt with by hypothesis and, dare I say it, belief: The nature of consciousness; what exactly is spirituality?; if there was a big bang then how do you deal with the concept of "before the big bang" ?.

Speciation (and evolution) is so solid as a theory that it certainly does not qualify as an area that can't be wholly understood from a rational scientific point of view. The current discussions on whether or not the "Pioneer anomoly" or any other data from current probes can provide data that will force us to adjus our current Newtonian\Einsteinian theory of gravity don't qualify either as all of these are perfectly manageable within the context of standard rational scientific investigation. We can make falsifiable predictions, investigate and get answers that prove or refute the assertions. We can (and do) carry out experiments and create accurate theoretical models.

No doubt there are researchers out there pushing the edge of the envelope on understanding the mind who are preparing a scientifically rational model as I type but I haven't come across any yet. Likewise there are plenty of Cosmologists who are foaming at the mouth at my earlier comment as they say that there is no such thing as "before the big bang" so the question is meaningless but that just doesn't cut the mustard for me as that requires me to believe that well, it all just started which is logically equivalent to "God did it" in my book.

Spirituality is one that I have difficulty with because I don't understand it or empathise with it as a concept at all. Frankly I don't see the need (personally) which makes it very hard for me to take discussions on it seriously. Why does there need to be a higher purpose? After all very little that we see on earth or in the universe makes it seem at all likely that such a "Higher Purpose", if it exists, is anything but a very, very cruel purpose indeed. Why have predators and prey? Diseases? Death? What purpose do the myriad of hugely destructive forces in the universe have apart from just being forces? Personally I think I'd have a hard time remaining sane if I thought there was a "higher purpose" because I cannot see how such a thing could have any hand in the way things are. So I remain a happy rational atheist for the time being even though I have no explanation for how I'm able to think and cannot for the life of me get my head around why "what happened before the big bang" is a meaningless question.

[Bob Shaw]

Considering the number of accidents, cock-ups and plain disasters we see in the universe at large (and locally), isn't it best to assume that the ID scenario is indeed, quite wrong, and that in fact UD is the way to go?

Er... ...that's 'Unintelligent Design', as I'm certain you all guessed. I'm sure Douglas Adams had some comments on a species which was searching for the Supreme Being just so they could give Him a piece of their mind...

Bob Shaw

[helvick]

Er... ...that's 'Unintelligent Design', as I'm certain you all guessed. I'm sure Douglas Adams had some comments on a species which was searching for the Supreme Being just so they could give Him a piece of their mind...

Not quite the same DA quote but definitely the same intent:

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

Also relevant:

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

Possibly on topic but totally irrelevant:

A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

[ljk4-1]

Not quite the same DA quote but definitely the same intent:

Also relevant:

Possibly on topic but totally irrelevant:

I also thought Douglas Adams had the human race right on target when we were described in the opening to Hitch-Hikers Guide as the species that once nailed a guy to a tree for saying that we should all be nice to each other.

[ljk4-1]

A little more speculation:

What if our Universe was created, not by a supernatural entity but by an advanced race from another universe that created ours either as a by-product of their version of the Large Hadron Collider or deliberately as an experiment? Either way the theory goes that such an event would leave the creators with no way to contact or find out about the universes they created, thus making them quite the Deists.

If we can envision such a thing, imagine what a really technologically advanced civilization can do. And may already have.


As for the purpose of the human species, what if life on Earth is essentially one giant organism with many complex, independent parts, which we cannot see as a whole because we are one of those parts? Think Gaia or Lem's Solaris.

What if our purpose is to deflect all those potentially life-threatening planetoids and comets from hitting Earth? Thus we were given big brains and space travel for that purpose. Of course these same tools may also be used to spread Earth life to other worlds, thus ensuring our survival. And of course it may have happened many times before, and is happening now in our galaxy and others.

I like Carl Sagan's view of intelligent life: It is a way for the Universe to know itself. And with such a big thing as a galaxy, one is going to need numerous intelligent species to comprehend it all.

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

A little more speculation: 

What if our Universe was created, not by a supernatural entity but by an advanced race from another universe that created ours either as a by-product of their version of the Large Hadron Collider or deliberately as an experiment?  Either way the theory goes that such an event would leave the creators with no way to contact or find out about the universes they created, thus making them quite the Deists.

If we can envision such a thing, imagine what a really technologically advanced civilization can do.  And may already have.

Interesting speculation. It can eventually be true, but, as I replied to Dvandorn, it does not reply to a question "why the universe exists", it just eludes this question and reject it to the creation of our creators.

Eventually a civilisation able to create a universe may be able to see what happens in it, and eventually the technology required to create an universe would allow to modify it afterward. So communication is not a problem.


In all the theories where an intention created our universe or our specie, whatever the creator is a divine entity or a superior civilization, there would be a moment where he intervenes in a way or another, a moment where, being ripe enough, we discover some box containing instructions about what to do after, or who created us. So these theories can be tested:
-by finding traces of past intervention (such as Anthropism, traces of ancient spaceship visits, messages coded in our genes like here (a fiction story)
-by finding messages of the creator
-by finding indications about what to do or why we were created.

Until today no clear such artifact was found. But this makes very interesting the search of such past evidence, which, if they are known by some, may take the form of strange stories, strange things happening somewhere, or mythological accounts. Of course there is many work to clear out all the garbage in these domains, bit if only one such fact is clearly demonstrated, it would be a real philosophical breakthrough.
In the case of a divine creation, the message could be simply hidden in our hearts (our emotions) telling us, for instance, to love each others, to look for beauty, knowledge, etc, a thing that many people do spontaneously without communicating to each other. The reason why a divine creator would suppress all hard evidences and left us only with feelings would be simply to point at what is really relevant for Him. (Yes I see the many adepts of His Noodliness Cult on this forum replying that this is circular thinking or eluding rational questioning. I say no, it is lefting us with no other alternatinve that heeding our hearts, a thing which is not really difficult and which does not forbid us to make good physics and space exploration. By the way the elected people of His Noodliness is the italians, its main holy day is April 1st and he lefts us with no other evidence of his existence than being funny)

[ljk4-1]

By the way the elected people of His Noodliness is the italians, its main holy day is April 1st and he left him with no evidence of his existence than being funny)

I oftened wondered if the Universe was made as some giant practical joke, with God the Ultimate Practical Joker. It would explain so much.

"God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

And read his great science fiction story, Micromegas, here:

http://wondersmith.com/scifi/micro.htm

An excerpt:

The conversation grew more and more interesting, and Micromegas spoke as follows:

"O intelligent atoms, in whom the Eternal Being has been pleased to manifest His skill and power, you must doubtless taste joys of perfect purity on your globe; for, being encumbered with so little matter, and seeming to be all spirit, you must pass your lives in love and meditation--the true life of spiritual beings. I have nowhere beheld genuine happiness, but here it is to be found, without a doubt."

On hearing these words, all the philosophers shook their heads, and one, more frank than the others, candidly confessed that, with the exception of a small number held in mean estimation among them, all the rest of mankind were a multitude of fools, knaves, and miserable wretches.

"We have more matter than we need," said he, "the cause of much evil, if evil proceeds from matter; and we have too much mind, if evil proceeds from mind. For instance, at this very moment there are 100,000 fools of our species who wear hats, slaying 100,000 fellow creatures who wear turbans, or being massacred by them, and over almost all of Earth such practices have been going on from time immemorial."

The Sirian shuddered, and asked what could cause such horrible quarrels between those miserable little creatures.

"The dispute concerns a lump of clay," said the philosopher, "no bigger than your heel. Not that a single one of those millions of men who get their throats cut has the slightest interest in this clod of earth. The only point in question is whether it shall belong to a certain man who is called Sultan, or another who, I know not why, is called Caesar. Neither has seen, or is ever likely to see, the little corner of ground which is the bone of contention; and hardly one of those animals, who are cutting each other's throats has ever seen the animal for whom they fight so desperately."

"Ah! wretched creatures!" exclaimed the Sirian with indignation; "Can anyone imagine such frantic ferocity! I should like to take two or three steps, and stamp upon the whole swarm of these ridiculous assassins."

"No need," answered the philosopher; "they are working hard enough to destroy themselves. I assure you, at the end of 10 years, not a hundredth part of those wretches will be left; even if they had never drawn the sword, famine, fatigue, or intemperance will sweep them almost all away. Besides, it is not they who deserve punishment, but rather those armchair barbarians, who from the privacy of their cabinets, and during the process of digestion, command the massacre of a million men, and afterward ordain a solemn thanksgiving to God."

[Guest_Richard Trigaux_*]

I oftened wondered if the Universe was made as some giant practical joke, with God the Ultimate Practical Joker.  It would explain so much.

"God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

And read his great science fiction story, Micromegas, here:

"... the point but suppressed to avoid long quotes...."

Good,

I oftened wondered if the Universe was made as some giant practical joke, with God the Ultimate Practical Joker.  It would explain so much.

Yes, God is a joke, it is serious.