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Ingenuity- Mars 2020 Helicopter, Deployment & Operations
Art Martin
post Mar 7 2021, 04:35 PM
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I'm putting this in the Early Drives category because I believe that one of the primary purposes of these first drives is to find a spot for the helicopter.

Is anyone else wondering like I am just what the terrain needs to look like to set the helicopter down? It sure looks to me that the areas we're in right now are largely free of obstacles for flying and landing with no large rocks. Unless you go for some completely sand covered spot I'm not sure you're going to find any areas any more pristine. Does anybody have any info about what type of zone they are exactly looking for? Since the helicopter is not really designed to be used for investigation of terrain but more as just a proof of concept of flight, I would imagine the choice of area would be wide open and flat.

Here's what I've got so far about upcoming events.

1. The helicopter below the rover limits ground clearance so it is vital that the helicopter phase be early in the drives so the rover is not limited in mobility.

2. The main purpose of the helicopter is proof of concept of Mars flight so the emphasis is not using it for exploration/route planning/research photography but merely that we can sustain flight - take off, fly autonomously, and land safely.

3. Once deposited on the surface, it will take a number of days of check outs prior to the first real flight.

Should we create a new topic that is discussion about the helicopter?
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mcaplinger
post Mar 7 2021, 08:33 PM
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Some interesting info in https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2...L%2318-3381.pdf -- stuff in JPL TRS is circa 2018 so might be out of date though.


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Disclaimer: This post is based on public information only. Any opinions are my own.
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Pando
post Mar 8 2021, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 7 2021, 12:33 PM) *
Some interesting info in https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2...L%2318-3381.pdf -- stuff in JPL TRS is circa 2018 so might be out of date though.


Great info there. One thing that caught my eye was the future use of a helicopter as "Fetcher":

QUOTE
• Fetchers go carry something from one place to another"
• Like collected rock samples to a single pile for Mars Sample Return

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rlorenz
post Mar 28 2021, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (Pando @ Mar 8 2021, 03:54 PM) *
Great info there. One thing that caught my eye was the future use of a helicopter as "Fetcher":


Unlikely, IMHO. Helicopters do not scale up well.

Beyond the obvious thrust challenge in the thin Martian atmosphere (i.e. classic momentum theory, and the Mach/Reynolds aerodynamic issues common to all aeronautics), there are some other rotorcraft-specific issues that actually are rather challenging for Ingenuity that one only confronts when one gets into the real details of design and test.

First is heat transfer. The thin atmosphere gives almost no cooling. The Ingenuity motors have parts made of beryllium to act as a heatsink, but even then I think overheating is actually the limiting factor on fliight duration, not battery energy.

Second is aeroelasticity. There's a similarity parameter called the Lock Number (that I hadnt heard of until I started working with rotor people on Dragonfly) that is important in assessing the structural damping of blade flexing. Again, the thin atmosphere is the problem, it provides no damping so blade oscillations can build up.

Both of these issues get worse as you scale up. So at the NIAC / Powerpoint / student-final-year-project level, yes you can mock out neat-looking hexacopters and stuff in the 10-20 kg range and they look like they should fly, but once you really start poking into the thermal and mechanical design, I bet even those would not work out.

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fredk
post Mar 29 2021, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (rlorenz @ Mar 28 2021, 04:13 PM) *
The thin atmosphere gives almost no cooling. The Ingenuity motors have parts made of beryllium to act as a heatsink, but even then I think overheating is actually the limiting factor on fliight duration, not battery energy.

That's interesting, and surprizing. Since the rotors must produce comparable downward thrust on Mars as on Earth (to within an order of magnitude, anyway, considering the lower gravity), via a much greater rotor velocity, I might've guessed that the cooling effect of that air would be comparable too. I guess that means that thrust doesn't scale the same as conductive cooling with air density.
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rlorenz
post Mar 31 2021, 02:59 AM
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QUOTE (fredk @ Mar 29 2021, 12:04 PM) *
That's interesting, and surprizing. Since the rotors must produce comparable downward thrust on Mars as on Earth (to within an order of magnitude, anyway, considering the lower gravity), via a much greater rotor velocity, I might've guessed that the cooling effect of that air would be comparable too. I guess that means that thrust doesn't scale the same as conductive cooling with air density.


Thrust goes as rho * V squared. So for a given thrust and disk area, Martian density 50x less means the downwash has to be 7x faster

Power goes as rho * V cubed. So to generate that thrust we have to put 7x more power through the motor

But the heat transport goes as something like rho * V, so we have 7x less heat removal for a given temperature difference.


Now of course the disk loading of Ingenuity is a factor of a few less than typical small terrestrial drones, to make these effects a bit more manageable (and keep the rotor tips subsonic, etc.) but you can see the scaling really points to overheating being an issue for sustained operation at low density
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Posts in this topic
- Art Martin   Ingenuity- Mars 2020 Helicopter   Mar 7 2021, 04:35 PM
- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Art Martin @ Mar 7 2021, 08:35 AM)...   Mar 7 2021, 06:35 PM
- - nprev   New topic created.   Mar 7 2021, 06:37 PM
- - mcaplinger   https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2...L%23...   Mar 7 2021, 07:56 PM
- - mcaplinger   Some interesting info in https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/...   Mar 7 2021, 08:33 PM
|- - Art Martin   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 7 2021, 01:33 PM)...   Mar 8 2021, 06:26 PM
|- - Pando   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 7 2021, 12:33 PM)...   Mar 8 2021, 08:54 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (Pando @ Mar 8 2021, 03:54 PM) Grea...   Mar 28 2021, 03:13 PM
|- - fredk   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Mar 28 2021, 04:13 PM) T...   Mar 29 2021, 05:04 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (fredk @ Mar 29 2021, 09:04 AM) I g...   Mar 29 2021, 06:50 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (fredk @ Mar 29 2021, 12:04 PM) Tha...   Mar 31 2021, 02:59 AM
|- - Bill Harris   QUOTE (rlorenz @ Mar 30 2021, 09:59 PM) T...   Mar 31 2021, 05:24 AM
- - Art Martin   According to a post on Twitter the rover has moved...   Mar 9 2021, 02:20 PM
- - Explorer1   Helicopter lecture starting now: https://www.youtu...   Mar 12 2021, 03:00 AM
- - Art Martin   Well my suspicions were confirmed as we got the fi...   Mar 12 2021, 02:58 PM
- - Art Martin   I had no idea about the cover for the sample extra...   Mar 13 2021, 05:23 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Art Martin @ Mar 13 2021, 09:23 AM...   Mar 13 2021, 05:56 PM
- - Art Martin   Thanks for the reply. I remember certainly that d...   Mar 14 2021, 05:43 AM
- - Mogster   A planned 5 flights have been mentioned previously...   Mar 14 2021, 09:17 AM
|- - Art Martin   QUOTE (Mogster @ Mar 14 2021, 02:17 AM) A...   Mar 14 2021, 04:04 PM
- - Art Martin   Here's some comments I found on the Ingenuity ...   Mar 14 2021, 04:24 PM
|- - Marvin   QUOTE (Art Martin @ Mar 14 2021, 11:24 AM...   Mar 14 2021, 05:53 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (Marvin @ Mar 14 2021, 09:53 AM) So...   Mar 14 2021, 06:07 PM
||- - Marvin   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 14 2021, 01:07 PM...   Mar 14 2021, 08:22 PM
||- - fredk   QUOTE (Marvin @ Mar 14 2021, 09:22 PM) 42...   Mar 14 2021, 09:39 PM
|- - MrNatural   QUOTE (Marvin @ Mar 14 2021, 06:53 PM) In...   Mar 20 2021, 09:52 AM
|- - Mogster   QUOTE (MrNatural @ Mar 20 2021, 10:52 AM)...   Mar 20 2021, 01:06 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (MrNatural @ Mar 20 2021, 04:52 AM)...   Mar 21 2021, 08:51 PM
- - Art Martin   An update. Just saw an answer to a Twitter post f...   Mar 14 2021, 05:39 PM
- - nprev   Per the press kit the expected effective radio ran...   Mar 14 2021, 07:38 PM
- - Explorer1   Even if relaying to and from the rover has no nega...   Mar 14 2021, 08:06 PM
- - Andreas Plesch   The NASA Radioisotope Power Systems web pages have...   Mar 15 2021, 02:11 AM
|- - Marvin   QUOTE (Andreas Plesch @ Mar 14 2021, 09:1...   Mar 15 2021, 12:59 PM
- - Explorer1   https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-to-host-...icop...   Mar 17 2021, 08:38 PM
- - Art Martin   This just came up on Twitter. Things seem to poin...   Mar 19 2021, 09:05 PM
- - mcaplinger   Debris shield dropped.   Mar 21 2021, 07:35 PM
- - neo56   From other points of view:   Mar 21 2021, 08:39 PM
- - alan   Percy is such a litterbug.   Mar 21 2021, 11:55 PM
- - neo56   Animation made with WATSON mosaics taken on sols 2...   Mar 22 2021, 07:44 PM
|- - CryptoEngineer   QUOTE (neo56 @ Mar 22 2021, 03:44 PM) Ani...   Mar 23 2021, 02:44 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Those things are parts of the Belly Pan which was ...   Mar 23 2021, 04:05 PM
- - Explorer1   T - 1 hour to a preview of the flight: https://www...   Mar 23 2021, 04:37 PM
|- - Art Martin   QUOTE (Explorer1 @ Mar 23 2021, 09:37 AM)...   Mar 23 2021, 06:41 PM
|- - MrNatural   QUOTE (Art Martin @ Mar 23 2021, 07:41 PM...   Mar 24 2021, 09:53 PM
|- - MahFL   QUOTE (MrNatural @ Mar 24 2021, 09:53 PM)...   Mar 24 2021, 10:55 PM
- - Sean   Airfield & Flight Zone with simulated rover ...   Mar 25 2021, 12:33 AM
- - pioneer   I hear Ingenuity's window of operation will la...   Mar 26 2021, 10:29 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (pioneer @ Mar 26 2021, 02:29 PM) I...   Mar 26 2021, 11:23 PM
|- - pioneer   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 27 2021, 12:23 AM...   Mar 26 2021, 11:48 PM
- - Art Martin   Lots of new images down of the underbelly and Inge...   Mar 27 2021, 02:00 PM
- - PaulH51   GIF - Helicopter 'Launch Lock' unlatched ...   Mar 28 2021, 02:59 AM
- - Phil Stooke   https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020-raw-images/p...00LU...   Mar 28 2021, 09:23 PM
- - Mogster   I remember cooling being a serious issue for the A...   Mar 29 2021, 05:21 PM
- - PaulH51   Another step closer (sol 38)   Mar 29 2021, 10:14 PM
- - Sean   Almost there...   Mar 30 2021, 12:08 AM
- - Marvin   It's getting exciting! Here's what Fl...   Mar 30 2021, 12:36 AM
- - neo56   Animation of Ingenuity deployment from sols 35 to ...   Mar 30 2021, 07:45 PM
|- - MarkL   [quote name='neo56' date='Mar 30 2021,...   Mar 31 2021, 04:55 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (MarkL @ Mar 31 2021, 08:55 AM) The...   Mar 31 2021, 05:22 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (MarkL @ Mar 31 2021, 08:55 AM) I w...   Mar 31 2021, 06:18 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 31 2021, 10:18 AM)...   Mar 31 2021, 07:09 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Mar 31 2021, 11:09 AM...   Mar 31 2021, 07:42 PM
|- - Marvin   QUOTE (djellison @ Mar 31 2021, 02:42 PM)...   Apr 3 2021, 02:05 PM
- - PaulH51   Looking good with all 4 legs deployed on sol 39 (p...   Mar 31 2021, 01:24 AM
- - djellison   So what you're saying is...Dragonfly has it ea...   Mar 31 2021, 04:35 AM
- - htspace   Wow!   Mar 31 2021, 11:59 AM
- - stevesliva   One begins to expect Ingenuity to deploy somethi...   Mar 31 2021, 07:19 PM
|- - fredk   QUOTE (stevesliva @ Mar 31 2021, 08:19 PM...   Mar 31 2021, 08:18 PM
- - neo56   Animation updated with sol 39 mosaic:   Mar 31 2021, 07:58 PM
- - Marz   April 11th is the expected first flight attempt, w...   Apr 2 2021, 03:21 PM
- - PaulH51   New Helicopter blog entry link (dated April 02, 20...   Apr 3 2021, 03:47 AM
- - Art Martin   Just saw this on Twitter: https://pbs.twimg.com/m...   Apr 4 2021, 01:17 AM
- - nprev   Upright & on the regolith.   Apr 4 2021, 01:20 AM
- - Explorer1   And lapping up the sun's rays too! Terrifi...   Apr 4 2021, 02:30 AM
- - Phil Stooke   The two Hazcam images projected to help locate the...   Apr 4 2021, 03:02 AM
|- - MahFL   Whoot !   Apr 4 2021, 04:00 AM
- - neo56   A bit of image processing on this first photo of I...   Apr 4 2021, 08:25 AM
- - Marvin   Good drop! I read somewhere there was a conti...   Apr 4 2021, 11:44 AM
|- - Explorer1   QUOTE (Marvin @ Apr 4 2021, 06:44 AM) Goo...   Apr 4 2021, 01:50 PM
- - Sean   Survive The Night   Apr 4 2021, 12:23 PM
- - John Moore   Assuming all goes well for the eventual lift-off, ...   Apr 4 2021, 02:47 PM
|- - HSchirmer   QUOTE (John Moore @ Apr 4 2021, 02:47 PM)...   Apr 4 2021, 03:28 PM
|- - Art Martin   QUOTE (John Moore @ Apr 4 2021, 07:47 AM)...   Apr 4 2021, 08:20 PM
|- - fredk   QUOTE (John Moore @ Apr 4 2021, 03:47 PM)...   Apr 4 2021, 11:25 PM
- - Art Martin   There's a number of images that I thought we...   Apr 4 2021, 08:17 PM
- - phase4   here's an attempt to make an anaglyph of a L-R...   Apr 4 2021, 11:39 PM
- - Sean   Sol 44 Navcam Left   Apr 5 2021, 02:29 AM
- - nprev   Yikes. Do I see dust on the arrays already...?   Apr 5 2021, 02:52 AM
|- - Art Martin   QUOTE (nprev @ Apr 4 2021, 07:52 PM) Yike...   Apr 5 2021, 03:18 AM
||- - Marvin   QUOTE (Art Martin @ Apr 4 2021, 10:18 PM)...   Apr 5 2021, 10:55 AM
|- - fredk   QUOTE (nprev @ Apr 5 2021, 03:52 AM) Do I...   Apr 5 2021, 05:33 AM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (fredk @ Apr 4 2021, 09:33 PM) I co...   Apr 5 2021, 06:00 AM
- - nprev   Agreed, of course. Definitely do not want to be ri...   Apr 5 2021, 03:24 AM
- - Art Martin   An anaglyph of the Nav Cam shots. Ingenuity on Su...   Apr 5 2021, 03:31 AM
- - eliBonora   Hazcam panorama   Apr 5 2021, 05:23 AM
- - djellison   4 NCAM subframes each at 2x2 downsampled. I suspe...   Apr 5 2021, 05:31 AM
- - neo56   A mosaic of 2 Hazcam Left pictures taken on sol 43...   Apr 5 2021, 10:01 AM
- - Andreas Plesch   https://bit.ly/PercyMAP has been updated to show t...   Apr 5 2021, 04:15 PM
|- - ChrisC   QUOTE (Andreas Plesch @ Apr 5 2021, 11:15...   Apr 5 2021, 06:29 PM
- - Art Martin   A new update showed up on the rover website that e...   Apr 5 2021, 07:16 PM
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