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The Pioneer Anomaly
remcook
post Aug 16 2005, 04:27 PM
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http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly_faq.html

The planetary society may be checking it out...

QUOTE
The Planetary Society has committed to raise the funds to preserve the priceless Pioneer data from destruction.


After years of analysis, but without a final conclusion, NASA, astonishingly, gave up trying to solve the "Pioneer Anomaly" and provided no funds to analyze the data. The Pioneer data exists on a few hundred ancient 7- and 9-track magnetic tapes, which can only be read on "antique" outdated computers. The agency is going to scrap, literally demolish, the only computers able to access and process that data in the next few months!
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Jeff7
post Jan 10 2006, 11:30 PM
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Concerning dark matter, I remembered some article that had a theory for why dark matter need not exist at all - that we only need to use relativity properly, and apply it to gravity. Something along those lines.
Link - it has a summary of this theory, and a link to the full abstract. It seems to say that, when looking at something small, like a single star, Newtonian physics may be an adequate approximation, but this doesn't work when you're looking at the way an entire galaxy behaves.
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Mongo
post Jan 11 2006, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (Jeff7 @ Jan 10 2006, 11:30 PM)
Concerning dark matter, I remembered some article that had a theory for why dark matter need not exist at all - that we only need to use relativity properly, and apply it to gravity. Something along those lines.
Link - it has a summary of this theory, and a link to the full abstract. It seems to say that, when looking at something small, like a single star, Newtonian physics may be an adequate approximation, but this doesn't work when you're looking at the way an entire galaxy behaves.
*


Here are the direct links for the original paper:

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0507619

and for its follow-ip:

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0512048

These two paper are interesting indeed! Their argument is that galactic rotation curves have always been modeled using Newtonian Gravity (NG) rather than the full General Relativity (GR), because GR is so much harder to model for something like a galaxy. In fact, even today it is impossible to accurately model a galaxy with GR, the two papers describe highly simplified models. Everyone assumed that there would be little difference between the results using NG and GR, but the authors show that there is actually a huge difference in the results.

Models using NG predict, from the visible matter, rotation curves that fall far short of observations, requiring new physics as a result: either invisible 'Dark Matter', that does not fit into the Standard Theory of physics derived from direct experiment, or a theory of MOND that modifies either gravity or inertia. The (highly simplified) model using GR, on the other hand, predicts rotation curves that closely match observations, obviating the need for 'Dark Matter' or MOND.

I should point out, however, that MOND was always a phenomenological theory, and its predictions using visible matter would closely match the predictions using GR. In other words, MOND was describing the effects of GR on galaxies, without realising it!

Will these papers have the influence on cosmology that they seem to deserve? The problem is that almost all of modern cosmology is based on the assumption that 'Dark Matter' exists. Most current cosmologists have based their careers on this assumption. They would be VERY reluctant to throw so much of their professional work away.

I would like to see follow-ups to these papers, but right now I am inclined to think that galactic rotation curves are indeed accurately described by GR, without the need for 'Dark Matter'.

Bill
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ljk4-1
post Jan 11 2006, 09:42 PM
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Judging by these two new news items, dark matter/energy cosmology is indeed the "in" topic for astronomers these days.

Johns Hopkins Univ. news release dated 1/11/06

SCIENTISTS "RAVE-ING" ABOUT MOST AMBITIOUS STAR SURVEY EVER

An international team of astronomers today announced the first results from
the Radial Velocity Experiment, an ambitious all-sky spectroscopic survey
aimed at measuring the speed, temperature, surface gravity and composition
of up to a million stars passing near the sun.

Those first results from the project, known for short as RAVE, confirm that
dark matter dominates the total mass of our home galaxy, the Milky Way, team
members at The Johns Hopkins University and elsewhere said. The full survey
promises to yield a new, detailed understanding of the origins of the
galaxy, they said.

The results were released at the American Astronomical Society's 207th
meeting in Washington, D.C.

An image is available at http://www.jhu.edu/news/home06/jan06/wyse.html


Gamma-ray burst study may rule out cosmological constant

Dark energy - the mysterious force that drives the acceleration of
the universe - changes over time, suggest controversial new
calculations.

If true, the work rules out Einstein's notion of a "cosmological
constant" and suggests dark energy, which now repels space, once
drew it together.

Read the full story on New Scientist Space:

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn8566


--------------------
"After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance.
I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard,
and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does
not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is
indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have
no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft."

- Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853

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Posts in this topic
- remcook   The Pioneer Anomaly   Aug 16 2005, 04:27 PM
- - Steffen   Sorry, but what is this anomaly about? ( I'm a...   Jan 9 2006, 07:07 AM
|- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (Steffen @ Jan 8 2006, 11:07 PM)Sorry, ...   Jan 9 2006, 04:26 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Steffen @ Jan 9 2006, 12:07 AM)Sorry, ...   Jan 9 2006, 05:24 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jan 9 2006, 09:24 AM)N...   Jan 9 2006, 09:29 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jan 9 2006, 09:29 PM)From a...   Jan 9 2006, 09:34 PM
- - djellison   I have an image in my head of driving around the M...   Jan 9 2006, 04:50 PM
- - Mongo   If the unmodeled acceleration is indeed, as the ev...   Jan 9 2006, 11:20 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Mongo @ Jan 9 2006, 06:20 PM)If the un...   Jan 10 2006, 02:34 AM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 10 2006, 02:34 AM)He...   Jan 10 2006, 05:29 AM
|- - ljk4-1   This site gives the general history and background...   Jan 10 2006, 01:55 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0503368 From: Dar...   Jan 10 2006, 04:29 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 10 2006, 09:29 AM)As...   Jan 10 2006, 06:54 PM
- - Jeff7   Concerning dark matter, I remembered some article ...   Jan 10 2006, 11:30 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Anomalous Acceleration of Pioneer 10 and 11: Dust ...   Jan 11 2006, 04:31 PM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (Jeff7 @ Jan 10 2006, 11:30 PM)Concerni...   Jan 11 2006, 08:28 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (Mongo @ Jan 11 2006, 08:28 PM)Will the...   Jan 11 2006, 09:03 PM
||- - Mongo   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jan 11 2006, 09:03 P...   Jan 11 2006, 09:48 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Judging by these two new news items, dark matter/e...   Jan 11 2006, 09:42 PM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 11 2006, 09:42 PM)Th...   Jan 11 2006, 10:00 PM
- - Myran   Thank you ljk4-1, that first link was interesting ...   Jan 11 2006, 07:37 PM
- - Jeff7   QUOTE I should point out, however, that MOND was a...   Jan 12 2006, 12:21 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Jeff7 @ Jan 11 2006, 05:21 PM)It sort ...   Jan 12 2006, 03:56 AM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jan 12 2006, 03:56 AM)...   Jan 12 2006, 05:13 AM
|- - ljk4-1   Paper: astro-ph/0601247 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 2...   Jan 12 2006, 10:28 PM
|- - ljk4-1   I don't want this turning into the Dark Matter...   Jan 13 2006, 02:44 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 13 2006, 02:44 PM)I ...   Jan 13 2006, 03:33 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 13 2006, 09:44 A...   Feb 14 2006, 06:30 PM
|- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Feb 14 2006, 07:03 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   The density of galaxies was determined using the l...   Jan 12 2006, 09:35 AM
- - Mongo   So this team has observed a cloud of neutral hydro...   Jan 13 2006, 05:14 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Mongo @ Jan 13 2006, 10:14 AM)I think ...   Jan 15 2006, 07:39 AM
|- - ljk4-1   Paper (*cross-listing*): gr-qc/0601055 Date: Sat...   Jan 18 2006, 03:30 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 18 2006, 10:30 AM)Pa...   Jan 23 2006, 10:44 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 23 2006, 03:44 PM)Ti...   Jan 24 2006, 03:17 PM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jan 24 2006, 03:17 PM)...   Jan 24 2006, 06:16 PM
- - djellison   Pioneer 10 or 11 basically Doug   Jan 20 2006, 03:30 PM
- - hal_9000   From New Scientist -> http://www.newscientistsp...   Jan 26 2006, 07:30 PM
|- - Jeff7   QUOTE (hal_9000 @ Jan 26 2006, 02:30 PM)From ...   Jan 27 2006, 01:41 AM
|- - ljk4-1   Paper: astro-ph/0601581 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21...   Jan 27 2006, 06:34 PM
|- - ljk4-1   From The Planetary Society update: Our strategy f...   Feb 1 2006, 04:02 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 1 2006, 04:02 AM)Fro...   Feb 1 2006, 08:27 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Feb 1 2006, 01:27 AM...   Feb 1 2006, 03:54 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Feb 1 2006, 03:54 PM)W...   Feb 2 2006, 09:54 AM
||- - ugordan   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Feb 2 2006, 10:54 AM...   Feb 2 2006, 12:05 PM
||- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 2 2006, 05:05 AM)It does...   Feb 2 2006, 05:04 PM
||- - ljk4-1   Any chance there is a foreign object like a small ...   Feb 2 2006, 05:07 PM
||- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 2 2006, 05:07 PM)Any...   Feb 2 2006, 06:49 PM
||- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 2 2006, 10:07 AM)Any...   Feb 2 2006, 07:04 PM
||- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0602161 From: R. ...   Feb 8 2006, 03:26 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Feb 1 2006, 03:54 PM)I...   Feb 2 2006, 09:56 AM
- - AlexBlackwell   I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned t...   Feb 9 2006, 12:11 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Feb 8 2006, 07:11 PM)I...   Feb 9 2006, 12:13 AM
|- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Feb 9 2006, 04:19 PM
|- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Feb 9 2006, 04:29 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Quotes from the article "Listening for Pionee...   Feb 10 2006, 10:28 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 9 2006, 09:29 AM...   Feb 13 2006, 11:11 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0602266 From: Joa...   Feb 14 2006, 06:13 PM
- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Feb 23 2006, 07:01 PM
- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Mar 22 2006, 04:26 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 22 2006, 09:26 A...   Mar 22 2006, 05:08 PM
- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0502582 From: Mic...   Mar 28 2006, 06:05 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 28 2006, 11:05 A...   Mar 28 2006, 07:44 PM
- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0603790 From: Ett...   Mar 30 2006, 03:09 PM
- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Apr 4 2006, 04:26 PM
- - ljk4-1   Paper (*cross-listing*): gr-qc/0604047 Date: Mon,...   Apr 17 2006, 05:43 PM
- - edstrick   In a talk on the Pioneer Anomaly last week at the ...   May 12 2006, 10:04 AM
- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0504634 From: And...   Jun 2 2006, 03:56 PM
- - remcook   If you've got new scientist...there's an a...   Jun 2 2006, 06:22 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (remcook @ Jun 2 2006, 07:22 PM) If...   Jun 2 2006, 08:34 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jun 2 2006, 08:34 PM) ....   Jun 3 2006, 02:02 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jun 2 2006, 02:34 PM) T...   Jun 3 2006, 08:57 PM
- - dvandorn   Dark matter. It's so deliciously undefined th...   Jun 3 2006, 03:11 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   dvandorn, I quoted this explanation based on dark ...   Jun 4 2006, 07:51 AM
- - ljk4-1   Centauri Dreams' latest take on the Pioneer An...   Jun 6 2006, 03:41 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   According to the NS article, the data tapes were j...   Jun 6 2006, 02:12 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   That is great new at last that the data was saved,...   Jun 6 2006, 05:39 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jun 5 2006, 11:3...   Jun 7 2006, 01:18 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jun 7 2006, 01:18 ...   Jun 7 2006, 05:34 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jun 6 2006, 11:3...   Jun 7 2006, 06:20 PM
- - ljk4-1   Maybe something attached themselves to the Pioneer...   Jun 6 2006, 02:26 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jun 6 2006, 02:26 PM...   Jun 6 2006, 03:39 PM
- - ljk4-1   30 Years of Pioneer Spacecraft Data Rescued: The ...   Jun 6 2006, 06:31 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   Speed of the light?? What is the speed of the lig...   Jun 7 2006, 08:27 PM
- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0606197 From: Ma...   Jun 9 2006, 08:06 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   Very interesting work. Now just remains to compa...   Jun 10 2006, 07:49 AM
- - ljk4-1   I wonder if the recently announced one quadrillion...   Aug 15 2006, 09:45 PM
- - ljk4-1   Test of the Pioneer anomaly with the Voyager 2 rad...   Sep 2 2006, 08:11 PM
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