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The Pioneer Anomaly
remcook
post Aug 16 2005, 04:27 PM
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http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly_faq.html

The planetary society may be checking it out...

QUOTE
The Planetary Society has committed to raise the funds to preserve the priceless Pioneer data from destruction.


After years of analysis, but without a final conclusion, NASA, astonishingly, gave up trying to solve the "Pioneer Anomaly" and provided no funds to analyze the data. The Pioneer data exists on a few hundred ancient 7- and 9-track magnetic tapes, which can only be read on "antique" outdated computers. The agency is going to scrap, literally demolish, the only computers able to access and process that data in the next few months!
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Mongo
post Jan 13 2006, 05:14 PM
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So this team has observed a cloud of neutral hydrogen with an estimated mass of 100 million suns, which has a much too large rotational velocity for its mass. This is the logical end point of the trend from high-surface-brightness elliptical galaxies, which have only slightly too large rotational velocitys, through normal spiral galazies, which have larger excess rotational velocitys, through low-surface-brightness galaxies, which have extreme excess rotational velocities, and finally this lowest-surface-brightness galaxy (which is what this object really is), which has the highest excess rotational velocity of all.

Looks like a trend to me.

I fail to see that this proves that dark matter exists, since the same MOND-like physics (which apparently describe full General Relativity) that were postulated to explain other cases would presumably apply to this object as well. The whole point of MOND-like theories is that they apply under conditions of galactic distances but low gravitational acceleration, which is why the difference between Newtonian models and observation increases with declining surface brightness (which tracks mass and hence gravitational acceleration). Something like this gas cloud would be expected to have remarkably high rotational velocitys.

I think that we should wait to see from a refereed paper if this object is explainable under MOND or GR before proclaiming that dark matter exists.

Bill
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The Messenger
post Jan 15 2006, 07:39 AM
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QUOTE (Mongo @ Jan 13 2006, 10:14 AM)
I think that we should wait to see from a refereed paper if this object is explainable under MOND or GR before proclaiming that dark matter exists.

Bill
*

I think we better wait longer that that - there are many refereed papers that all-but-insist Dark Matter is a done deal. Sorry - I don't believe in the Easter Bunny, and I don't believe theories that cannot be demonstrated using local observables and principles are scientifically valid.

There has been an intense campaign in the last four decades to identify the baryons responsible for altering galactic rotations, and these careful seaches have turned up naughta. Most of the conjecture I have seen about why these searches have failed; and how Dark Matter can best be explained have involved hypotheses that simply cannot be tested - and yes, this includes redistributing galactic masses so that General Relativity fits the bill.

The Pioneer anomalies are observational events that we can sink our teeth into. This is where the trail should be picked up - in our own backyard. This is where we can either support or null a hypothesis.
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ljk4-1
post Jan 18 2006, 03:30 PM
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Paper (*cross-listing*): gr-qc/0601055

Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:11:23 GMT (36kb)

Title: What do the orbital motions of the outer planets of the Solar System
tell us about the Pioneer Anomaly?

Authors: Lorenzo Iorio

Comments: Latex2e, 12 pages, 3 tables, 4 figures

Subj-class: General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology; Space Physics
\\
In this paper we investigate the effects that an anomalous acceleration as
that experienced by the Pioneer spacecraft after they passed the 20 AU
threshold would induce on the orbital motions of the Solar System planets
placed at heliocentric distances of 20 AU or larger as Uranus, Neptune and
Pluto. It turns out that such an acceleration, with a magnitude of about 8 X
10^-10 m s^-2, would affect their orbits with secular and short-period signals
large enough to be detected with the present-day level of accuracy in orbit
determination. The absence of such anomalous signatures in the latest data
analyses rules out the possibility that in the region 20-40 AU of the Solar
System an anomalous force field inducing a constant and radial acceleration of
that size is present.

\\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0601055 , 36kb)


--------------------
"After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance.
I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard,
and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does
not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is
indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have
no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft."

- Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853

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ljk4-1
post Jan 23 2006, 10:44 PM
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QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 18 2006, 10:30 AM)
Paper (*cross-listing*): gr-qc/0601055

Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:11:23 GMT (36kb)

Title: What do the orbital motions of the outer planets of the Solar System
tell us about the Pioneer Anomaly?

Authors: Lorenzo Iorio

Comments: Latex2e, 12 pages, 3 tables, 4 figures

Subj-class: General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology; Space Physics
\\
In this paper we investigate the effects that an anomalous acceleration as
that experienced by the Pioneer spacecraft after they passed the 20 AU
threshold would induce on the orbital motions of the Solar System planets
placed at heliocentric distances of 20 AU or larger as Uranus, Neptune and
Pluto. It turns out that such an acceleration, with a magnitude of about 8 X
10^-10 m s^-2, would affect their orbits with secular and short-period signals
large enough to be detected with the present-day level of accuracy in orbit
determination. The absence of such anomalous signatures in the latest data
analyses rules out the possibility that in the region 20-40 AU of the Solar
System an anomalous force field inducing a constant and radial acceleration of
that size is present.

\\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0601055 , 36kb)
*


Paper (*cross-listing*): gr-qc/0601055

replaced with revised version Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:04:50 GMT (37kb)

Title: What do the orbital motions of the outer planets of the Solar System
tell us about the Pioneer anomaly?

Authors: Lorenzo Iorio

Comments: Latex2e, 13 pages, 3 tables, 4 figures, 14 references. References
added. Stressed the fact that, even by assuming errors in the planetary
orbital elements 30 times larger that those published by Pitjeva, the
anomalous Pioneer effects on Uranus, Neptune, Pluto still remain well larger
and, thus, detectable if present

Subj-class: General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology; Space Physics

\\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0601055 , 37kb)


--------------------
"After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance.
I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard,
and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does
not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is
indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have
no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft."

- Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853

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The Messenger
post Jan 24 2006, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 23 2006, 03:44 PM)
Title: What do the orbital motions of the outer planets of the Solar System
  tell us about the Pioneer anomaly?

Authors: Lorenzo Iorio

Comments: ... Stressed the fact that, even by assuming errors in the planetary
  orbital elements 30 times larger that those published by Pitjeva, the
  anomalous Pioneer effects on Uranus, Neptune, Pluto still remain well larger
  and, thus, detectable if present
...

This is an important constraint, under the tested conditions:

QUOTE (Iorio)
In particular, we will investigate the possibility that an external, unknown constant and uniform force field inducing an acceleration of (8)×10−10 m s−2 on a test particle is present in the outer regions of the Solar System within 20-40 AU.

I think this highly constrains MOND-like, Dark Matter-like, or Dark Energy-like candidates.

These results do not constrain 1) non-linear effects, 2) systemics that may cause us to incorrectly calculate the mass and/or positions of the planets, or 3) linear effects that only act upon small conductive, and/or radioactive bodies.

Although the measured Pioneer accelerations appear to be roughly linear, it is important to remember that over great distances: 1/r, 1/r^2 and 1/z^4 - these normal distant field scaling factors can be reduced to nearly linear approximations (over relatively short distances) cool.gif
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Mongo
post Jan 24 2006, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jan 24 2006, 03:17 PM)
These results do not constrain 1) non-linear effects, 2) systemics that may cause us to incorrectly calculate the mass and/or positions of the planets, or 3) linear effects that only act upon small conductive, and/or radioactive bodies.
*

I wonder if the magnitude of the 'Pioneer Effect' depends upon the radial velocity of the object, such that objects moving away from the Sun appear to have a force acting upon them toward the Sun, and objects moving toward the Sun appear to have a force acting upon them away from the Sun, with the magnitude of the 'force' proportional to the radial velocity of the object.

Objects in bound orbits, such as the planets, would end up having the two effects cancel out over each full orbit. The effect of such a 'force' would be to make their orbits somewhat less eccentric than they would otherwise be, but since the effect would be small (due to the low eccentricity of all the large objects with well-known orbits, resulting in low radial velocities) and would act over only half of an orbital cycle before being reversed (as the radial velocity changes from outward to inward and vice versa), the difference between the actual orbit, forced to lower eccentricity under the Pioneer Effect, and a non-Pioneer Effect orbit of sufficiently lower eccentricty to match, might well be too small to observe with current technology.

The 'Pioneer Effect' would only be easily visible in unbound trajectories such as Pioneers 10 and 11, where the effect is larger due to the larger radial velocity, and can accumulate over a much longer period of time.

Bill
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Posts in this topic
- remcook   The Pioneer Anomaly   Aug 16 2005, 04:27 PM
- - Steffen   Sorry, but what is this anomaly about? ( I'm a...   Jan 9 2006, 07:07 AM
|- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (Steffen @ Jan 8 2006, 11:07 PM)Sorry, ...   Jan 9 2006, 04:26 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Steffen @ Jan 9 2006, 12:07 AM)Sorry, ...   Jan 9 2006, 05:24 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jan 9 2006, 09:24 AM)N...   Jan 9 2006, 09:29 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (JRehling @ Jan 9 2006, 09:29 PM)From a...   Jan 9 2006, 09:34 PM
- - djellison   I have an image in my head of driving around the M...   Jan 9 2006, 04:50 PM
- - Mongo   If the unmodeled acceleration is indeed, as the ev...   Jan 9 2006, 11:20 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Mongo @ Jan 9 2006, 06:20 PM)If the un...   Jan 10 2006, 02:34 AM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 10 2006, 02:34 AM)He...   Jan 10 2006, 05:29 AM
|- - ljk4-1   This site gives the general history and background...   Jan 10 2006, 01:55 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0503368 From: Dar...   Jan 10 2006, 04:29 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 10 2006, 09:29 AM)As...   Jan 10 2006, 06:54 PM
- - Jeff7   Concerning dark matter, I remembered some article ...   Jan 10 2006, 11:30 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Anomalous Acceleration of Pioneer 10 and 11: Dust ...   Jan 11 2006, 04:31 PM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (Jeff7 @ Jan 10 2006, 11:30 PM)Concerni...   Jan 11 2006, 08:28 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (Mongo @ Jan 11 2006, 08:28 PM)Will the...   Jan 11 2006, 09:03 PM
||- - Mongo   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jan 11 2006, 09:03 P...   Jan 11 2006, 09:48 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Judging by these two new news items, dark matter/e...   Jan 11 2006, 09:42 PM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 11 2006, 09:42 PM)Th...   Jan 11 2006, 10:00 PM
- - Myran   Thank you ljk4-1, that first link was interesting ...   Jan 11 2006, 07:37 PM
- - Jeff7   QUOTE I should point out, however, that MOND was a...   Jan 12 2006, 12:21 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Jeff7 @ Jan 11 2006, 05:21 PM)It sort ...   Jan 12 2006, 03:56 AM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jan 12 2006, 03:56 AM)...   Jan 12 2006, 05:13 AM
|- - ljk4-1   Paper: astro-ph/0601247 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 2...   Jan 12 2006, 10:28 PM
|- - ljk4-1   I don't want this turning into the Dark Matter...   Jan 13 2006, 02:44 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 13 2006, 02:44 PM)I ...   Jan 13 2006, 03:33 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 13 2006, 09:44 A...   Feb 14 2006, 06:30 PM
|- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Feb 14 2006, 07:03 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   The density of galaxies was determined using the l...   Jan 12 2006, 09:35 AM
- - Mongo   So this team has observed a cloud of neutral hydro...   Jan 13 2006, 05:14 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Mongo @ Jan 13 2006, 10:14 AM)I think ...   Jan 15 2006, 07:39 AM
|- - ljk4-1   Paper (*cross-listing*): gr-qc/0601055 Date: Sat...   Jan 18 2006, 03:30 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 18 2006, 10:30 AM)Pa...   Jan 23 2006, 10:44 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jan 23 2006, 03:44 PM)Ti...   Jan 24 2006, 03:17 PM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jan 24 2006, 03:17 PM)...   Jan 24 2006, 06:16 PM
- - djellison   Pioneer 10 or 11 basically Doug   Jan 20 2006, 03:30 PM
- - hal_9000   From New Scientist -> http://www.newscientistsp...   Jan 26 2006, 07:30 PM
|- - Jeff7   QUOTE (hal_9000 @ Jan 26 2006, 02:30 PM)From ...   Jan 27 2006, 01:41 AM
|- - ljk4-1   Paper: astro-ph/0601581 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21...   Jan 27 2006, 06:34 PM
|- - ljk4-1   From The Planetary Society update: Our strategy f...   Feb 1 2006, 04:02 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 1 2006, 04:02 AM)Fro...   Feb 1 2006, 08:27 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Feb 1 2006, 01:27 AM...   Feb 1 2006, 03:54 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Feb 1 2006, 03:54 PM)W...   Feb 2 2006, 09:54 AM
||- - ugordan   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Feb 2 2006, 10:54 AM...   Feb 2 2006, 12:05 PM
||- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ugordan @ Feb 2 2006, 05:05 AM)It does...   Feb 2 2006, 05:04 PM
||- - ljk4-1   Any chance there is a foreign object like a small ...   Feb 2 2006, 05:07 PM
||- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 2 2006, 05:07 PM)Any...   Feb 2 2006, 06:49 PM
||- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 2 2006, 10:07 AM)Any...   Feb 2 2006, 07:04 PM
||- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0602161 From: R. ...   Feb 8 2006, 03:26 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Feb 1 2006, 03:54 PM)I...   Feb 2 2006, 09:56 AM
- - AlexBlackwell   I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned t...   Feb 9 2006, 12:11 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (AlexBlackwell @ Feb 8 2006, 07:11 PM)I...   Feb 9 2006, 12:13 AM
|- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Feb 9 2006, 04:19 PM
|- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Feb 9 2006, 04:29 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Quotes from the article "Listening for Pionee...   Feb 10 2006, 10:28 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Feb 9 2006, 09:29 AM...   Feb 13 2006, 11:11 PM
|- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0602266 From: Joa...   Feb 14 2006, 06:13 PM
- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Feb 23 2006, 07:01 PM
- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Mar 22 2006, 04:26 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 22 2006, 09:26 A...   Mar 22 2006, 05:08 PM
- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0502582 From: Mic...   Mar 28 2006, 06:05 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Mar 28 2006, 11:05 A...   Mar 28 2006, 07:44 PM
- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0603790 From: Ett...   Mar 30 2006, 03:09 PM
- - ljk4-1   General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract...   Apr 4 2006, 04:26 PM
- - ljk4-1   Paper (*cross-listing*): gr-qc/0604047 Date: Mon,...   Apr 17 2006, 05:43 PM
- - edstrick   In a talk on the Pioneer Anomaly last week at the ...   May 12 2006, 10:04 AM
- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0504634 From: And...   Jun 2 2006, 03:56 PM
- - remcook   If you've got new scientist...there's an a...   Jun 2 2006, 06:22 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (remcook @ Jun 2 2006, 07:22 PM) If...   Jun 2 2006, 08:34 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jun 2 2006, 08:34 PM) ....   Jun 3 2006, 02:02 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jun 2 2006, 02:34 PM) T...   Jun 3 2006, 08:57 PM
- - dvandorn   Dark matter. It's so deliciously undefined th...   Jun 3 2006, 03:11 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   dvandorn, I quoted this explanation based on dark ...   Jun 4 2006, 07:51 AM
- - ljk4-1   Centauri Dreams' latest take on the Pioneer An...   Jun 6 2006, 03:41 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   According to the NS article, the data tapes were j...   Jun 6 2006, 02:12 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   That is great new at last that the data was saved,...   Jun 6 2006, 05:39 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jun 5 2006, 11:3...   Jun 7 2006, 01:18 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jun 7 2006, 01:18 ...   Jun 7 2006, 05:34 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jun 6 2006, 11:3...   Jun 7 2006, 06:20 PM
- - ljk4-1   Maybe something attached themselves to the Pioneer...   Jun 6 2006, 02:26 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jun 6 2006, 02:26 PM...   Jun 6 2006, 03:39 PM
- - ljk4-1   30 Years of Pioneer Spacecraft Data Rescued: The ...   Jun 6 2006, 06:31 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   Speed of the light?? What is the speed of the lig...   Jun 7 2006, 08:27 PM
- - ljk4-1   Astrophysics, abstract astro-ph/0606197 From: Ma...   Jun 9 2006, 08:06 PM
- - Richard Trigaux   Very interesting work. Now just remains to compa...   Jun 10 2006, 07:49 AM
- - ljk4-1   I wonder if the recently announced one quadrillion...   Aug 15 2006, 09:45 PM
- - ljk4-1   Test of the Pioneer anomaly with the Voyager 2 rad...   Sep 2 2006, 08:11 PM
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