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Soviet Luna Missions
PhilHorzempa
post May 4 2006, 03:05 AM
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I thought that it was time to start up a discussion of what we know, or
would like to know, about the Soviet Luna Missions.

To start off, I have heard many a reference to the landing system utilized
by the early landers, such as Luna 9. However, I have yet to find a report,
or even a diagram, that shows the sequence of events, or such details as
the air bags. If such references do not exist, I hope that some of the UMSF
community have Russian contacts that could lead us to the source material
before it ends up in the dust bin of history.

In addition, I heard of an effort several years ago to obtain ALL of the imagery
from Lunakhods 1 and 2. Does anyone know if that effort was able to
secure that data?

Also, as far as Lunas 15, 18 and 23, the sample-return missions that didn't
quite make it home, are there any official reports "out there" that detail what
actually occurred to those missions? Or will we have to wait for the
high-resolution images from the LRO to determine their fates?


Another Phil
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4th rock from th...
post May 6 2006, 01:48 AM
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Attached Image


Finally I've finished one of my projects: merging various Luna 3 images to reduce noise, cover all of the moon's disk and replace missing data areas.

This is my final result and not that bad in my opinion ;-)
Much of the image resolution was lost in the noise, but the picture's dynamic range was recovered.


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tedstryk
post May 6 2006, 02:59 PM
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QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 6 2006, 01:48 AM) *

Attached Image


Finally I've finished one of my projects: merging various Luna 3 images to reduce noise, cover all of the moon's disk and replace missing data areas.

This is my final result and not that bad in my opinion ;-)
Much of the image resolution was lost in the noise, but the picture's dynamic range was recovered.


Nice work! I had never thought of doing that!


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Guest_DonPMitchell_*
post May 7 2006, 02:45 AM
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Very cool. Where did you find a good picture of frame 35?

I'm still trying to pry more Luna-3 pictures loose. To be honest, they are probably sitting in a drawer, scratched up, covered with dust. But I'm told the magnetic tape still exists, and there is a machine at IKI that can read it. I'm pressing some folks to do that.


I made this figure for my book, just to give people a reference for what they are looking at in the Luna-3 images. The clementine image is a texture-mapped sphere.

[attachment=5474:attachment]

So I guess this means the American Anti-Communist League was wrong. The Russians didn't fake the pictures.
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4th rock from th...
post May 7 2006, 11:05 AM
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QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 7 2006, 03:45 AM) *
Very cool. Where did you find a good picture of frame 35?


Hum... I didn't !!!! I just used the clean parts from several frames to create the mosaic.

Here's what you get using the odd number frames. Photoshop does help here ;-)

Attached Image


QUOTE (gndonald @ May 7 2006, 07:05 AM) *
You've done a magnificient job with that image, any plans to do the same thing with the Zond 3 far-side photos?


I'm at (slow) work with those, but it's complicated because of spacecraft motion. Some kind of image projection will be needed to create a full mosaic.

So far, I've got this :-) from frames 3, 5 and 7:

Attached Image


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Guest_DonPMitchell_*
post May 9 2006, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 7 2006, 04:05 AM) *
Hum... I didn't !!!! I just used the clean parts from several frames to create the mosaic.


Oh wait, my mistake. I was thinking you used frame 32 for some reason.

I would love to get the signal off the Luna-3 tapes. They reprocessed some of them in 1965, and those images display considerably better quality.

[attachment=5504:attachment] [attachment=5505:attachment]
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4th rock from th...
post May 9 2006, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 9 2006, 11:02 AM) *
Oh wait, my mistake. I was thinking you used frame 32 for some reason.

I would love to get the signal off the Luna-3 tapes. They reprocessed some of them in 1965, and those images display considerably better quality.


Yes, that would be great. There is software that decodes fax images using a PC's soundboard. I've tired it on HF Fax transmissions, using a SW radio connected to the PC and it works.

So it would be as "simple" as converting the Luna 3 tapes to MP3 format. My guess is that the image information uses "regular sound" frequencies, so a simple convertion to MP3 would do.


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RJG
post May 9 2006, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 9 2006, 01:55 PM) *
So it would be as "simple" as converting the Luna 3 tapes to MP3 format. My guess is that the image information uses "regular sound" frequencies, so a simple convertion to MP3 would do.


Be careful!

MP3 is a lossy compression technique using various methods to determine what to loose -including psychoacoustics. Obviously, if the audio signal is to be demodulated as a visual image, these losses may well manifest themselves as visible artifacts.

You would be better to convert to WAV which doesn't involve compression. Still easy to do but without leading to imperfections in the final image.

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4th rock from th...
post May 9 2006, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (RJG @ May 9 2006, 08:54 PM) *
MP3 is a lossy compression technique using various methods to determine what to loose -including psychoacoustics.


Yes, that is true, but I was just thinking of a quick way to share such data (given that it even exists) and to try to decode it. Anyway, given the limited amount of information in such a transmission, I don't think that MP3 would degrade it much.

Anyway, some links with some info on HF-Fax that might be interesting at least to understand the basics of analog image transmission, as used on the Luna images.

http://www.hffax.de/html/live_charts.html
http://www.hffax.de/html/hf-fax.html


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Guest_DonPMitchell_*
post May 10 2006, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 9 2006, 03:34 PM) *
Yes, that is true, but I was just thinking of a quick way to share such data (given that it even exists) and to try to decode it. Anyway, given the limited amount of information in such a transmission, I don't think that MP3 would degrade it much.

Anyway, some links with some info on HF-Fax that might be interesting at least to understand the basics of analog image transmission, as used on the Luna images.

http://www.hffax.de/html/live_charts.html
http://www.hffax.de/html/hf-fax.html


Luna-3 images were FM video on a 25 kHz subcarrier. I think you'd want to get uncompressed WAV format, and then party on that with some good digital filters, like a high quality FM demodulator to start with.
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ljk4-1
post May 10 2006, 11:32 AM
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QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 9 2006, 08:32 PM) *
Luna-3 images were FM video on a 25 kHz subcarrier. I think you'd want to get uncompressed WAV format, and then party on that with some good digital filters, like a high quality FM demodulator to start with.


Sven Grahn has these pages on his Web site regarding Luna 3 and its frequencies:

http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/trackind/luna3/Luna3story.html

http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/radioind/Luna3b...Luna3beeps.html

http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/trackind/luna3/Yefimov.html

http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/radioind/lunaradi/lunaradi.htm


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4th rock from th...
post May 10 2006, 09:23 PM
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QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ May 10 2006, 12:32 PM) *
Sven Grahn has these pages on his Web site regarding Luna 3 and its frequencies:
...


Thanks for the links. I've read them all in detail and there are some interesting informations there:

There were 2 transmission modes, a Slow Mode and a Fast Mode. Total transmission times for a scan line and a complete picture are given, but they are inconsistent!

On the Slow Mode the rate was 1.25s per line with a total transmission time of around 30m. Well, 1000 lines would only take 1250s(~21m) to be transmited, so I think that is the accurate figure.

On the Fast Mode the transmission time is given as 15s for a whole frame, duration of a frame 10s !?!
These numbers don't make much sense. Perhaps a total transmission time of 1.5 minutes at ~0.1 seconds per line are the correct values?


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Posts in this topic
- PhilHorzempa   Soviet Luna Missions   May 4 2006, 03:05 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   We had quite a detailed discussion of the Luna 4 t...   May 4 2006, 06:27 AM
- - tasp   Luna 23 and Luna 18 were apparently damaged by h...   May 4 2006, 12:52 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (tasp @ May 4 2006, 08:52 AM) Luna ...   May 4 2006, 01:53 PM
||- - Dyche Mullins   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ May 4 2006, 06:53 AM...   May 4 2006, 08:42 PM
||- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Dyche Mullins @ May 4 2006, 04:42 ...   May 4 2006, 09:09 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (tasp @ May 4 2006, 12:52 PM) Luna ...   May 4 2006, 02:45 PM
- - gndonald   The Astronautix.com website has a good timeline of...   May 4 2006, 02:08 PM
- - gndonald   This is a follow up to my earlier post (see above)...   May 4 2006, 04:54 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Following up on a couple of points here... I'm...   May 4 2006, 06:34 PM
- - ljk4-1   In the early 1990s, Andrew Lepage wrote in the onl...   May 4 2006, 07:20 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   If you REALLY like Luna 15 conspiracy theories, Al...   May 4 2006, 10:34 PM
- - gndonald   Hopefully the last word on Luna 15 conspiracies. T...   May 5 2006, 03:19 AM
- - 4th rock from the sun   Finally I've finished one of my projects: m...   May 6 2006, 01:48 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 6 2006, 01...   May 6 2006, 02:59 PM
||- - DonPMitchell   Very cool. Where did you find a good picture of f...   May 7 2006, 02:45 AM
||- - 4th rock from the sun   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 7 2006, 03:45 A...   May 7 2006, 11:05 AM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 7 2006, 04...   May 9 2006, 10:02 AM
||- - 4th rock from the sun   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 9 2006, 11:02 A...   May 9 2006, 01:55 PM
||- - RJG   QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 9 2006, 01...   May 9 2006, 07:54 PM
||- - 4th rock from the sun   QUOTE (RJG @ May 9 2006, 08:54 PM) MP3 is...   May 9 2006, 10:34 PM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 9 2006, 03...   May 10 2006, 12:32 AM
||- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 9 2006, 08:32 P...   May 10 2006, 11:32 AM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ May 10 2006, 04:32 A...   May 10 2006, 02:06 PM
||- - 4th rock from the sun   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ May 10 2006, 12:32 P...   May 10 2006, 09:23 PM
|- - gndonald   QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 6 2006, 09...   May 7 2006, 06:05 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Here is a mosaic of Zond 3 images which I made a w...   May 7 2006, 08:19 PM
|- - tedstryk   Very impressive. This Zond image is another favor...   May 7 2006, 10:37 PM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (tedstryk @ May 7 2006, 03:37 PM) V...   May 9 2006, 10:12 AM
||- - tedstryk   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 9 2006, 10:12 A...   May 9 2006, 10:25 AM
|- - 4th rock from the sun   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 7 2006, 09:19 PM...   May 10 2006, 11:45 PM
- - Decepticon   Thanks so much for posting that! I've bee...   May 11 2006, 01:21 AM
- - edstrick   I've wanted to play with the Luna 3 images for...   May 11 2006, 09:41 AM
- - 4th rock from the sun   Just to see how much of the Moon was covered by...   May 12 2006, 12:00 AM
- - DonPMitchell   Great Zond-3 mosaics! To answer you question ...   May 15 2006, 04:48 AM
- - Phil Stooke   4th Rock, I am very impressed with your Zond 3 mos...   May 15 2006, 06:42 AM
- - 4th rock from the sun   Thanks all for the info and kind words! I ju...   May 15 2006, 04:02 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 15 2006, 0...   May 15 2006, 04:35 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Don: Perhaps, in your researches into the Soviet ...   May 15 2006, 06:43 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 15 2006, 06:43 PM) ...   May 15 2006, 07:22 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Interestingly, the Astronautix.com page has a pict...   May 15 2006, 08:49 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   One of the cartoons we saw earlier (or at least I ...   May 15 2006, 10:59 PM
- - DonPMitchell   Yes indeed, the Soviets used airbags to land on th...   May 15 2006, 11:57 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Yeah, we discussed a lot of this over at (of all p...   May 16 2006, 01:23 AM
- - edstrick   I suspect that for the Luna-3 data, fourier or wav...   May 16 2006, 09:49 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   Don: Excellent information, thanks! I think I...   May 16 2006, 12:22 PM
||- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 16 2006, 05:22 AM) ...   May 16 2006, 03:20 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (edstrick @ May 16 2006, 02:49 AM) ...   May 16 2006, 02:35 PM
- - DonPMitchell   Here's a piece from Boris Chertok, describing ...   May 16 2006, 03:33 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 16 2006, 04:33 ...   May 16 2006, 03:46 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (djellison @ May 16 2006, 08:46 AM)...   May 16 2006, 04:16 PM
|- - Toma B   QUOTE (djellison @ May 16 2006, 05:46 PM)...   May 16 2006, 04:19 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   B)-->QUOTE(Toma B @ May 16 2006, 05:19 PM...   May 16 2006, 05:47 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   Does anyone have images of the Moon produced by th...   May 20 2006, 04:07 AM
- - 4th rock from the sun   Back to the Luna 3 images... I wasn't happy wi...   May 21 2006, 09:01 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Ricardo: Great work! Do you think any of tho...   May 21 2006, 09:09 PM
||- - 4th rock from the sun   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ May 21 2006, 10:09 PM) ...   May 21 2006, 10:33 PM
|- - tedstryk   Beautiful!   May 21 2006, 09:24 PM
- - DonPMitchell   Beautiful work. If I ever can get my hands on the...   May 21 2006, 11:01 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 21 2006, 11:01 ...   May 23 2006, 01:19 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ May 22 2006, 06:19 P...   May 23 2006, 03:26 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ May 22 2006, 11:26 ...   May 23 2006, 01:42 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ May 23 2006, 06:42 A...   May 23 2006, 03:33 PM
- - Phil Stooke   The Luna 19 and 22 cameras were not great from a s...   May 22 2006, 02:23 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 21 2006, 07:23 P...   May 22 2006, 05:46 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Don, could you please fill in a few more details a...   May 23 2006, 03:46 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 22 2006, 08:46 P...   May 23 2006, 05:22 AM
- - Phil Stooke   PhilHorzempa asked about Luna 19 and Luna 22 image...   May 23 2006, 06:53 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   There's been quite a lot written recently by B...   May 25 2006, 12:06 AM
- - 4th rock from the sun   Here's an updated Zond 3 mosaic. I did some re...   May 25 2006, 12:23 AM
|- - Ian R   Wow! Great work! Is that the eastern r...   May 25 2006, 03:23 AM
|- - ustrax   QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 25 2006, 0...   May 25 2006, 08:31 AM
- - ilbasso   I think that has to be the first Russian image whe...   May 25 2006, 01:15 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (ilbasso @ May 25 2006, 06:15 AM) I...   May 26 2006, 06:54 PM
- - ljk4-1   Check this out - a scale model of Luna 24 complete...   Jun 3 2006, 06:33 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jun 3 2006, 11:33 AM...   Jun 3 2006, 06:58 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 3 2006, 06:58 P...   Jun 3 2006, 10:35 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   I have looked through this thread and other Luna t...   Jun 8 2006, 04:07 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (PhilHorzempa @ Jun 7 2006, 09:07 P...   Jun 8 2006, 05:26 AM
|- - PhilHorzempa   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jun 8 2006, 01:26 A...   Jul 21 2006, 03:41 AM
- - DonPMitchell   The wealth of information is in Russian. There ar...   Jul 21 2006, 06:40 AM
- - Phil Stooke   I have just made a polar pan of Luna 13's land...   Sep 25 2006, 06:00 PM
|- - tedstryk   Cool...I did something similar with Luna-9 a while...   Sep 25 2006, 09:03 PM
- - DonPMitchell   Very cool. Can't wait to see your book, Phil.   Sep 26 2006, 12:15 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Thanks. Book update: It's finished. The last...   Sep 26 2006, 12:58 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Sep 25 2006, 05:58 P...   Sep 26 2006, 02:05 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Here's the Luna 9 counterpart. A rougher land...   Sep 26 2006, 01:31 PM
- - djellison   "I'd like to thank the members of UMSF wi...   Sep 26 2006, 01:34 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Don - just Word. Cambridge does all the page setu...   Sep 26 2006, 03:03 PM
|- - Ian R   Phil, Is there any chance you would consider auth...   Sep 26 2006, 06:09 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Oddly enough I have considered that. But unfortun...   Sep 26 2006, 06:14 PM
- - nprev   Need an extra writer for some utility work? I...   Sep 27 2006, 01:44 AM
- - edstrick   Phil... absolutely INSIST on final galley proofs. ...   Sep 27 2006, 09:22 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Good point, ed... and thanks everyone for your sup...   Sep 27 2006, 01:19 PM
|- - tedstryk   I hope that the Luna 16 and 24 panoramas are in th...   Sep 27 2006, 02:28 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Don Mitchell also reported that information about ...   Sep 27 2006, 09:46 PM
|- - tedstryk   Did you have any luck digging up Luna-20 imagery? ...   Sep 27 2006, 10:15 PM
- - edstrick   Didn't one of the Luna sample return missions ...   Sep 28 2006, 09:28 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Lunas 15, 16, 18 and 20 carried twin cameras mount...   Sep 28 2006, 12:15 PM
- - DonPMitchell   I was told by Arnold Selivanov that Luna-16 return...   Sep 28 2006, 02:35 PM
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