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Unaffordable and Unsustainable, NASA’s failing Earth-to-orbit Transportation Strategy
Guest_DonPMitchell_*
post Jul 25 2006, 04:11 AM
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The Space Frontier Foundation has gotten a lot of attention from the mainstream press with their latest Whitepaper.

They advocate a more extensive support fo free enterprise and entrepreneurship in the American space program. They suggest that NASA should no longer be allowed to develop and own new launch vehicles, and that CEV and CLV development should be cancelled. They also advise that NASA rely on Altas 5 and Delta 4 rockets, and transfer more funding to the Commercial Orbital Transportation Services program.

I cannot find the actual white paper on the SFF website. I don't know if SFF is particularly professional (certainly their gaudy website doesn't look it), but I have to agree with some of their points.
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Mariner9
post Jul 27 2006, 11:23 PM
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A very interesting white paper. I don't agree with a lot of it, in particular it seems to place an almost religous faith on every mention in the Presidential Commision report dealing with commercial resources for low Earth orbit access. Different people have been calling for space commercialization for decades, and the talk eventually seems to fizzle. If I were Dr Giffin I wouldn't want to put too many of my eggs in that basket either.

On the other hand, I think the white paper is dead on when it talks about the evolution of the CLV. What started out as a huge ammount of hardware inheritance has instead evolved into an entirely new vehicle from the ground up, with the exception of the solid rocket motor casings. Not the internals of the motor, which are rather critically altered with the move to the 5 segment design, just the basic shell. At this point I think serious consideration should be given to an evolved Delta IV or Atlas V design for the CLV.

I diverge from their conclusions again when it argues against the heavy lift Ares V. I just don't envision an evolved Delta or Atlas getting much past 100,000 pounds of payload to LEO (which would be double what they can manage today). And the diagrams of the uprated EELVs seem to show a lot of strap ons and maybe even extra staging to acheive this. Every time you add a component to a vehicle you are adding a lot of extra cost, and I seriously doubt the payload cost-per-pound would be all that attractive. Anyone remember what happened when the Titan II morphed into the III and into the III-E, 34D and ultimately the Titan IV? That was one heck of an expensive, and complicated, beast.


Plus, 100K payload is somewhat below what I think would be considered Heavy-Lift.

What this leaves you with is a requirement for all deep space missions to have a large number of assembly flights, with boosters whose cost efficiency is in considerable doubt.

No thanks, I think I'd rather see us invest in some sort of heavy lift like the Ares V.

Ultimately I think Dr Griffin's vision will have to be modified somewhat, but unlike all of the other shuttle follow-on attempts in the last 25 years, I think his will suceed. And even if all we get is Apollo on steroids, 50 years later, at least we got something.
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- DonPMitchell   Unaffordable and Unsustainable   Jul 25 2006, 04:11 AM
- - The Messenger   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 24 2006, 10:11 ...   Jul 25 2006, 01:54 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Jul 25 2006, 09:54...   Jul 26 2006, 12:48 AM
- - David   I have an uncomfortable feeling that the questions...   Jul 25 2006, 02:09 PM
|- - ugordan   This topic definitely sounds like it belongs more ...   Jul 25 2006, 02:25 PM
|- - Bjorn Jonsson   QUOTE (ugordan @ Jul 25 2006, 02:25 PM) T...   Jul 25 2006, 03:35 PM
- - DonPMitchell   As policy, there is good reason to want private en...   Jul 25 2006, 10:01 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 25 2006, 10:01 ...   Jul 26 2006, 12:13 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (David @ Jul 25 2006, 06:13 PM) I f...   Jul 26 2006, 02:23 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   This discution about comparing the merits of free ...   Jul 26 2006, 07:11 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Jul 26 2006, 08...   Jul 26 2006, 08:47 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   Thanks you ugordan for your informations. Actualy...   Jul 26 2006, 09:18 AM
- - DonPMitchell   Increasing the role of private industry in space i...   Jul 26 2006, 09:25 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   DonPMitchell, I basically don't agree with you...   Jul 26 2006, 11:04 AM
- - DonPMitchell   Well, I did not so much intend to compare socialis...   Jul 26 2006, 05:43 PM
|- - David   There's no question but that corporations have...   Jul 26 2006, 05:53 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 26 2006, 05:43 ...   Jul 28 2006, 06:17 AM
- - DonPMitchell   I think it depends on what you call space explorat...   Jul 26 2006, 09:03 PM
- - DonPMitchell   I've been trying to find a link to the actual ...   Jul 27 2006, 07:40 AM
- - Mariner9   A very interesting white paper. I don't agre...   Jul 27 2006, 11:23 PM
- - The Messenger   There has been a lot of atropy in the the US rocke...   Jul 28 2006, 04:27 AM
- - dvandorn   I think it's important to note that private in...   Jul 28 2006, 06:51 AM
|- - mchan   In the launcher industry, governments bring money ...   Jul 28 2006, 10:12 AM
- - DonPMitchell   There certainly is a lot of government involvement...   Jul 28 2006, 10:37 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 28 2006, 10:37 ...   Jul 31 2006, 11:04 AM
|- - Marz   QUOTE (Stephen @ Jul 31 2006, 06:04 AM) (...   Jul 31 2006, 02:42 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   If space is limited to academic science experiment...   Jul 31 2006, 06:42 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 31 2006, 02:42 ...   Aug 1 2006, 11:52 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Jul 31 2006, 06:42 ...   Aug 2 2006, 11:17 AM
- - Mariner9   I've felt for years that if you really want to...   Jul 29 2006, 03:31 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (Mariner9 @ Jul 29 2006, 03:31 PM) ...   Jul 29 2006, 03:42 PM
- - Analyst   Criticising the ISS and the Shuttle as being borin...   Aug 1 2006, 11:26 AM
- - dvandorn   And, in defense of ISS, I will just say that ISS i...   Aug 1 2006, 08:32 PM
- - djellison   I think there could have been better, cheaper, fas...   Aug 1 2006, 08:39 PM
- - dvandorn   Oh, I don't disagree, Doug. There probably ar...   Aug 1 2006, 08:51 PM
|- - helvick   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Aug 1 2006, 09:51 PM) H...   Aug 1 2006, 09:47 PM
- - DonPMitchell   I certainly don't want to see NASA stop fundin...   Aug 1 2006, 10:27 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Aug 1 2006, 10:27 P...   Aug 2 2006, 08:49 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Stephen @ Aug 2 2006, 02:49 AM) I ...   Aug 2 2006, 02:22 PM
- - DonPMitchell   Precisely, the commercial satellite business is pr...   Aug 2 2006, 05:27 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Aug 2 2006, 05:27 P...   Aug 3 2006, 12:20 AM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (David @ Aug 2 2006, 05:20 PM) I ca...   Aug 3 2006, 12:59 AM
- - Analyst   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Aug 2 2006, 05:27 P...   Aug 2 2006, 06:50 PM
|- - RNeuhaus   QUOTE (Analyst @ Aug 2 2006, 01:50 PM) If...   Aug 2 2006, 07:00 PM
|- - DonPMitchell   QUOTE (Analyst @ Aug 2 2006, 11:50 AM) If...   Aug 3 2006, 03:19 AM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (Analyst @ Aug 2 2006, 02:50 PM) If...   Aug 3 2006, 04:34 AM
- - remcook   then why do the russians launch polar satellites f...   Aug 2 2006, 07:38 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (remcook @ Aug 2 2006, 03:38 PM) th...   Aug 3 2006, 04:26 AM
- - djellison   Trajectory purposes I would have thought - same re...   Aug 2 2006, 08:29 PM
- - remcook   I believe the vandenberg launch option is because ...   Aug 2 2006, 09:16 PM
- - DonPMitchell   The most efficient orbital launch is made eastward...   Aug 2 2006, 10:30 PM
- - Analyst   Interesting, Jim. I should be more careful with ab...   Aug 3 2006, 06:30 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Analyst @ Aug 3 2006, 12:30 AM) In...   Aug 3 2006, 08:51 PM
|- - Jim from NSF.com   QUOTE (Analyst @ Aug 3 2006, 02:30 AM) In...   Aug 4 2006, 12:50 AM
- - Analyst   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Aug 3 2006, 08:51 ...   Aug 4 2006, 07:35 AM
- - Jim from NSF.com   By default, a launch going due east (90 degrees az...   Aug 4 2006, 01:00 PM
- - DonPMitchell   The perigee of the orbit will be approximately whe...   Aug 4 2006, 07:27 PM
- - tty   The ideal launch site should be: 1. On the Equato...   Aug 4 2006, 07:51 PM
- - DonPMitchell   Some of these effects are more important than othe...   Aug 5 2006, 09:06 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Aug 5 2006, 10:06 A...   Aug 5 2006, 01:56 PM
|- - tty   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Aug 5 2006, 11:06 A...   Aug 5 2006, 06:57 PM
|- - RNeuhaus   QUOTE (tty @ Aug 5 2006, 01:57 PM) I was ...   Aug 5 2006, 07:56 PM
|- - dilo   QUOTE (RNeuhaus @ Aug 5 2006, 07:56 PM) T...   Aug 5 2006, 08:57 PM
- - DonPMitchell   Ah, right you are tty, lower air pressure is an ad...   Aug 5 2006, 08:41 PM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Aug 5 2006, 03:41 P...   Aug 6 2006, 12:02 PM
- - The Messenger   "Toxic" fuels do not necessarily yield h...   Aug 6 2006, 04:21 PM
- - DonPMitchell   UDMH is both toxic and carcinogenic. It's ...   Aug 7 2006, 03:53 AM
- - DonPMitchell   Looks like NASA has decided to put some serious mo...   Aug 19 2006, 08:30 PM
- - Littlebit   http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.nl.html?pid=23...   Feb 5 2007, 07:22 PM
- - peter59   NASA has decided to end its use of the Boeing Delt...   Sep 27 2007, 05:09 PM
- - djellison   http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showt...   Sep 27 2007, 05:21 PM


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