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Fight for Pluto !, A Campaign to Reverse the Unjust Demotion
mars loon
post Aug 24 2006, 08:24 PM
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Dear Friends,

Today I am extremely dissapointed that the Pluto Demoters have triumphed.

I respect their opinion, but disagree with it.

I strongly agree with Alan Stern's statement calling it "absurd" that only 424 astronomers were allowed to vote, out of some 10,000 professional astronomers around the globe.

This tiny group is clearly not at all representative by mathematics alone.

I believe we should formulate a plan to overturn this unjust decision and return Pluto to full planetary status, and as the first member of a third catagory of planets, Xena being number two. Thus a total of 10 Planets in our Solar System

Please respond if you agree that Pluto should be restored as a planet.

ken

Ken Kremer
Amateur Astronomers Association of Princeton
Program Chairman
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laurele
post Sep 26 2006, 09:25 PM
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I strongly object to the demotion of Pluto by a small group of scientists voting based on very narrow criteria. There is no way I will accept this decision. If children I know are taught in school that there are eight planets in our solar system, I will correct this misinformation and teach them that there are nine (at least). This is revisionist history that would make George Orwell proud. Pluto orbits the sun and has three moons. The requirement that its orbit be on the same plane as Earth's is just one more example of human arrogance. In the long run, I believe this decision will be overturned. In the meantime, please count me in as an advocate who will do whatever I can to restore Pluto's rightful place in our solar system. You can also view my blog posting "In Defense of Pluto" at http://laurele.livejournal.com
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ugordan
post Sep 26 2006, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 26 2006, 10:25 PM) *
to restore Pluto's rightful place in our solar system.

It's not like anyone actually kicked Pluto out of our solar system or anything. Why don't you stand in defense of Ceres being reinstated as a planet, too? The decision to demote it could have also been considered "revisionist history". Why stop at Pluto? Why is it so special?


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laurele
post Sep 26 2006, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (ugordan @ Sep 26 2006, 05:36 PM) *
It's not like anyone actually kicked Pluto out of our solar system or anything. Why don't you stand in defense of Ceres being reinstated as a planet, too? The decision to demote it could have also been considered "revisionist history". Why stop at Pluto? Why is it so special?


I have no problem with Ceres being reinstated as a planet. In fact, I think the 12-planet scheme originally considered by the IAU is much more appropriate.
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ugordan
post Sep 26 2006, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 26 2006, 10:53 PM) *
I have no problem with Ceres being reinstated as a planet. In fact, I think the 12-planet scheme originally considered by the IAU is much more appropriate.

Then why aren't you pushing for that, instead of demanding that only Pluto be reinstated?


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laurele
post Sep 27 2006, 04:12 AM
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QUOTE (ugordan @ Sep 26 2006, 05:55 PM) *
Then why aren't you pushing for that, instead of demanding that only Pluto be reinstated?


First, I would like to see this travesty of a decision by the IAU overturned, as I see it as a giant step backwards. I do and will advocate for the 12-planet alternative. Dr. Alan Stern is convening a conference of over 1,000 astronomers next summer to address this issue, and I'm pretty certain this scheme will be considered.
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ugordan
post Sep 27 2006, 06:58 AM
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The way I see it you're pushing for a petition to reinstate Pluto, not demanding the IAU to make a better definition. If the petition was for a better, less sloppy definiton of a planet, I'd gladly sign it. This merely looks like someone god pi**ed about their favourite pet planet not being a planet anymore. How's that for "human arrogance"?

IMO, the time of a nine-planet solar system has passed. Either we have 8, hack it down even more to 4 or we have 12 or more. Pushing for Pluto only is wrong and IMO shows you're not interested as much in a good planet definition, but are interested in Pluto only.


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laurele
post Sep 27 2006, 03:47 PM
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I did not create this petition, and I am not pushing for Pluto only. If I had, I would have put in language urging the overturning of the IAU definition of a planet adopted last month and the adoption of a better definition that includes Pluto, Eris, and possibly Ceres and Charon as well. The point here is that the process by which the decision was adopted was flawed as well as arbitrary and capricious. This, not just the Pluto issue, is what Dr. Alan Stern seeks to correct with his conference next year.

It's not a matter of reinstating Pluto vs. adopting a better definition of the word planet. In no way are these goals mutually exclusive. And I am not wedded to having a nine-planet solar system. In fact, I have no problem with us having 50 or 100 planets or more, but the IAU members who voted on this decision did have a problem with that.

However, I do feel strongly that the definition of the word planet ultimately adopted should include Pluto. A round object that orbits the sun, has an atmosphere and three moons is a planet. There is no reason it cannot be both a planet and a Kuiper Belt Object. But it is different from other Kuiper Belt objects which are mostly much smaller and do not have any moons.
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Guest_Kevin Heider_*
post Sep 27 2006, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 27 2006, 08:47 AM) *
I am not pushing for Pluto only. I would have put in language urging the overturning of the IAU definition of a planet adopted last month and the adoption of a better definition that includes Pluto, Eris, and possibly Ceres and Charon as well.

If Pluto is a Planet because it is spherical, then Ceres deserves the same status!


QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 27 2006, 08:47 AM) *
The point here is that the process by which the decision was adopted was flawed as well as arbitrary.

The lower end of Planets will always be arbitrary. Nature does not confirm to our rules. Rather we define Planets as Spheroids (~400+km in diameter depending on mass), being at least as big as Pluto (2300+km), at least as big as Mercury (4878+km), or Dominant in their orbit, all of these definitions will have borderline cases. What happens when we find a Spheriod 480km in diameter (perhaps Huya?) that has too many tall mountain ranges on one side and on the other side has a small bite taken out of it by a collision with another object? Do we call it spherical by self gravity? Do we call it a former Planet (ie: it was a planet until that other object deformed it)??

Vesta looks too me as if it might have been spherical until an object came along took a bite out of it. Because Vesta has a differentiated interior, is it a former 'Dwarf Planet'?


QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 27 2006, 08:47 AM) *
I have no problem with us having 50 or 100 planets or more, but the IAU members who voted on this decision did have a problem with that.

The IAU had to come up with a definition of a Planet because of all the other TNOs (a group for which Pluto belongs to) being discovered. Since one object (Eris) was discovered to be bigger than Pluto they could infer that other objects would also be bigger than Pluto. The IAU either had to keep Pluto as a Planet and let many other non-dominant obects be included as Planets OR they had to remove Pluto as a Planet. Keeping Pluto as an exception to the rule would be unscientific.


QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 27 2006, 08:47 AM) *
But it (Pluto) is different from other Kuiper Belt objects which are mostly much smaller and do not have any moons.

Since "most stars are part of a binary star system, most planets have satellites, asteroids are known to have satellites, and some KBOs are known to have satellites", I find your statement that 'most do not have moons' to be inaccurate. Back in the 1960's no one thought Pluto had any satellites either. But since Pluto is one of the closest and most carefully studied KBOs they have found 3 satellites.


QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 27 2006, 08:47 AM) *
However, I do feel strongly that the definition of the word planet ultimately adopted should include Pluto. A round object that orbits the sun, has an atmosphere and three moons is a planet. There is no reason it cannot be both a planet and a Kuiper Belt Object.

Currently moons are defined by their surrounding DOMINANT (more massive) Planet. But currently (for better or worse) we define both planets and moons by their surroundings. If we want to define Planets by 'what they are' instead of 'where they are', should we also call spherical moons as Planets? That would add 19 moons as Planets.

"and ('c') dominates the neighborhood around its orbit clearing it of comparable objects." is as good of definition as any.

-- Kevin Heider
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Posts in this topic
- mars loon   Fight for Pluto !   Aug 24 2006, 08:24 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   I'm in.   Aug 24 2006, 08:37 PM
- - volcanopele   So am I.   Aug 24 2006, 08:48 PM
- - JRehling   QUOTE (mars loon @ Aug 24 2006, 01:24 PM)...   Aug 24 2006, 08:49 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (JRehling @ Aug 24 2006, 08:49 PM) ...   Aug 24 2006, 09:00 PM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (JRehling @ Aug 24 2006, 08:49 PM) ...   Aug 25 2006, 09:22 AM
|- - Ames   QUOTE (Stephen @ Aug 25 2006, 10:22 AM) Y...   Aug 25 2006, 11:10 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (Ames @ Aug 25 2006, 11:10 AM) Ok t...   Aug 25 2006, 11:50 AM
- - DonPMitchell   I agree, this is an arbitrary ruling by a small su...   Aug 24 2006, 09:05 PM
|- - Planet X   At any rate, I'm in! What if it turns out...   Aug 24 2006, 09:19 PM
||- - mars loon   QUOTE (Planet X @ Aug 24 2006, 09:19 PM) ...   Aug 24 2006, 10:18 PM
|||- - Jyril   QUOTE (mars loon @ Aug 25 2006, 01:18 AM)...   Aug 24 2006, 10:58 PM
||- - tedstryk   This could really get messy if they find a Pluto-t...   Aug 24 2006, 10:20 PM
||- - Alan Stern   Poll at chicagotribune.com... Do you agree with t...   Aug 24 2006, 10:32 PM
||- - Jyril   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Aug 25 2006, 01:32 AM...   Aug 24 2006, 11:03 PM
||- - mars loon   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Aug 24 2006, 10:32 PM...   Aug 24 2006, 11:48 PM
||- - dilo   I fully understand Alan is hungry, but, apart hist...   Aug 25 2006, 08:16 AM
||- - chris   QUOTE (dilo @ Aug 25 2006, 09:16 AM) I fu...   Aug 25 2006, 08:35 AM
|||- - dilo   QUOTE (chris @ Aug 25 2006, 09:35 AM) Did...   Aug 25 2006, 10:00 AM
||- - djellison   QUOTE (dilo @ Aug 25 2006, 09:16 AM) NEO ...   Aug 25 2006, 08:49 AM
||- - JRehling   QUOTE (dilo @ Aug 25 2006, 01:16 AM) I fu...   Aug 25 2006, 03:32 PM
||- - David   QUOTE (JRehling @ Aug 25 2006, 03:32 PM) ...   Aug 25 2006, 03:58 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (DonPMitchell @ Aug 24 2006, 09:05 ...   Aug 24 2006, 09:44 PM
- - Jyril   If you don't like Pluto's demotion, consid...   Aug 24 2006, 09:10 PM
- - Decepticon   I for one cheered when I heard the news! I su...   Aug 25 2006, 12:30 AM
- - David   If it had been up to me, personally, to make a dec...   Aug 25 2006, 03:10 AM
- - alan   I would have been happy with either of the possibi...   Aug 25 2006, 03:28 AM
- - Myran   Science isnt something that you can start a politi...   Aug 25 2006, 03:42 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Myran @ Aug 25 2006, 03:42 AM) Sci...   Aug 25 2006, 04:18 AM
- - Betelgeuze   Im in! I dont mind if Pluto is a dwarf planet...   Aug 25 2006, 05:09 AM
|- - JRehling   C - ommittee to R - einstate A - stronomy's P ...   Aug 25 2006, 05:45 AM
- - djellison   The classification of Pluto as non-planetary doesn...   Aug 25 2006, 08:11 AM
- - djellison   Truth be told - I think we should be fighting for ...   Aug 25 2006, 10:12 AM
|- - Jyril   QUOTE (djellison @ Aug 25 2006, 01:12 PM)...   Aug 25 2006, 12:00 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Jyril @ Aug 25 2006, 01:00 PM) Acc...   Aug 25 2006, 12:11 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (Jyril @ Aug 25 2006, 12:00 PM) The...   Aug 25 2006, 12:26 PM
- - Patteroast   The two results I was hoping for were either a def...   Aug 25 2006, 11:09 AM
- - Stephen   Too many of the elements in the IAU's definiti...   Aug 25 2006, 11:23 AM
|- - dilo   advice: this post is OT here! sorry for this.....   Aug 25 2006, 08:26 PM
- - Jyril   I have no problems with the "orbital dominanc...   Aug 25 2006, 12:28 PM
- - odave   Jupiter: "Dangit, I was just about to become...   Aug 25 2006, 04:00 PM
- - David   Radicalized pro-Plutonians may find this site amus...   Aug 26 2006, 05:15 PM
|- - mars loon   QUOTE (David @ Aug 26 2006, 05:15 PM) Rad...   Aug 26 2006, 08:50 PM
|- - volcanopele   QUOTE (David @ Aug 26 2006, 10:15 AM) Rad...   Aug 26 2006, 09:44 PM
|- - vexgizmo   QUOTE (David @ Aug 26 2006, 10:15 AM) Rad...   Aug 29 2006, 05:53 AM
|- - karolp   QUOTE (vexgizmo @ Aug 29 2006, 07:53 AM) ...   Aug 30 2006, 01:46 PM
|- - mars loon   QUOTE (karolp @ Aug 30 2006, 01:46 PM) Th...   Sep 2 2006, 01:42 PM
|- - karolp   If I were a US scientist I would put forward a pet...   Sep 2 2006, 02:40 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (mars loon @ Sep 2 2006, 01:42 PM) ...   Sep 13 2006, 09:45 PM
- - marsman   Here is a news article from CNN about an actual pr...   Sep 2 2006, 04:21 PM
- - volcanopele   Even the California Legislature is now weighing in...   Sep 7 2006, 08:12 PM
- - odave   Now that is an excellent example of government in ...   Sep 8 2006, 12:17 PM
- - Greg Hullender   volcanopele: Aren't you worried that it suppor...   Sep 9 2006, 04:05 AM
- - DonPMitchell   The last issue of Nature has an article about the ...   Sep 9 2006, 05:15 AM
|- - gpurcell   Absolutely, it was a political hatchet job from st...   Sep 13 2006, 06:58 AM
- - Sedna   Even when discovered, it was doubted that Pluto wa...   Sep 14 2006, 10:48 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Sedna @ Sep 14 2006, 03:48 PM) Eve...   Sep 15 2006, 04:41 AM
|- - Rob Pinnegar   QUOTE (JRehling @ Sep 14 2006, 10:41 PM) ...   Sep 15 2006, 06:00 AM
|- - dilo   QUOTE (JRehling @ Sep 15 2006, 04:41 AM) ...   Sep 15 2006, 09:22 AM
|- - ngunn   Nice diagram, but what is the object that appears ...   Sep 15 2006, 10:28 AM
|- - dilo   QUOTE (ngunn @ Sep 15 2006, 10:28 AM) Nic...   Sep 15 2006, 11:20 AM
|- - ljk4-1   What is really amazing is that - as far as 2000 OO...   Sep 15 2006, 01:44 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (dilo @ Sep 15 2006, 12:20 PM) Good...   Sep 15 2006, 02:18 PM
|- - dilo   I have same suspect, ngunn... considerng also the ...   Sep 17 2006, 03:59 PM
- - Jyril   Based on various comments on blogs and such, I got...   Sep 14 2006, 11:21 PM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (Jyril @ Sep 14 2006, 06:21 PM) But...   Sep 15 2006, 02:05 AM
- - laurele   [font=Times New Roman][size=4] I strongly object ...   Sep 26 2006, 09:25 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 26 2006, 10:25 PM) t...   Sep 26 2006, 09:36 PM
|- - laurele   QUOTE (ugordan @ Sep 26 2006, 05:36 PM) I...   Sep 26 2006, 09:53 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 26 2006, 10:53 PM) I...   Sep 26 2006, 09:55 PM
|- - laurele   QUOTE (ugordan @ Sep 26 2006, 05:55 PM) T...   Sep 27 2006, 04:12 AM
|- - ugordan   The way I see it you're pushing for a petition...   Sep 27 2006, 06:58 AM
|- - laurele   I did not create this petition, and I am not pushi...   Sep 27 2006, 03:47 PM
||- - Kevin Heider   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 27 2006, 08:47 AM) I...   Sep 27 2006, 07:09 PM
||- - laurele   [quote name='Kevin Heider' post='70120...   Sep 27 2006, 07:29 PM
||- - Kevin Heider   laurele: Why can't there be a subcategory of p...   Sep 27 2006, 10:19 PM
||- - laurele   If we find only one object (as large as Mars) in t...   Sep 29 2006, 11:19 PM
|- - Sedna   QUOTE (ugordan @ Sep 27 2006, 08:58 AM) T...   Sep 29 2006, 11:53 PM
|- - laurele   QUOTE (Sedna @ Sep 29 2006, 07:53 PM) Goo...   Sep 30 2006, 12:40 AM
|- - Sedna   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 30 2006, 02:40 AM) I...   Sep 30 2006, 01:16 AM
|- - laurele   So do I, as a minor planet or such maybe... The au...   Sep 30 2006, 05:00 AM
|- - Sedna   QUOTE (laurele @ Sep 30 2006, 07:00 AM) T...   Oct 1 2006, 02:19 AM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Sedna @ Sep 30 2006, 07:19 PM) A s...   Oct 1 2006, 05:04 AM
- - Sedna   Teens and children here, Spain, are fortunately be...   Sep 26 2006, 09:37 PM
- - djellison   This thread is getting overly heated ( as it was o...   Oct 1 2006, 07:20 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Since Mike Brown, discoverer of the erstwhile ...   Oct 1 2006, 08:29 PM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Oct 1 2006, 08:29...   Oct 1 2006, 08:57 PM
|- - Kevin Heider   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Oct 1 2006, 01:57 PM)...   Oct 3 2006, 08:51 AM
- - Greg Hullender   Thanks Alan. That was great! (Except for the...   Oct 2 2006, 05:37 AM
|- - MahFL   Well I still think of Pluto as a planet, small, co...   Oct 2 2006, 11:12 AM
|- - Alan Stern   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Oct 2 2006, 05:37...   Oct 2 2006, 11:53 AM
|- - SFJCody   QUOTE (Alan Stern @ Oct 2 2006, 12:53 PM)...   Oct 2 2006, 02:09 PM
- - Greg Hullender   What is the boundary on the ability of a planet to...   Oct 2 2006, 02:23 PM
|- - JRehling   QUOTE (Greg Hullender @ Oct 2 2006, 07:23...   Oct 2 2006, 09:08 PM
|- - Kevin Heider   What would happen if we took Jupiter (as it is tod...   Oct 2 2006, 09:12 PM
|- - Bart   QUOTE (Kevin Heider @ Oct 2 2006, 02:12 P...   Oct 3 2006, 12:11 AM
- - Superstring   QUOTE Heider: Mars in orbit around Jupiter. Titan ...   Oct 3 2006, 02:17 PM
- - JRehling   To one and (almost) all: This planet definition i...   Oct 3 2006, 03:24 PM
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