Fight for Pluto !, A Campaign to Reverse the Unjust Demotion Options

[mars loon]

Dear Friends,

Today I am extremely dissapointed that the Pluto Demoters have triumphed.

I respect their opinion, but disagree with it.

I strongly agree with Alan Stern's statement calling it "absurd" that only 424 astronomers were allowed to vote, out of some 10,000 professional astronomers around the globe.

This tiny group is clearly not at all representative by mathematics alone.

I believe we should formulate a plan to overturn this unjust decision and return Pluto to full planetary status, and as the first member of a third catagory of planets, Xena being number two. Thus a total of 10 Planets in our Solar System

Please respond if you agree that Pluto should be restored as a planet.

ken

Ken Kremer
Amateur Astronomers Association of Princeton
Program Chairman

[laurele]

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I strongly object to the demotion of Pluto by a small group of scientists voting based on very narrow criteria. There is no way I will accept this decision. If children I know are taught in school that there are eight planets in our solar system, I will correct this misinformation and teach them that there are nine (at least). This is revisionist history that would make George Orwell proud. Pluto orbits the sun and has three moons. The requirement that its orbit be on the same plane as Earth's is just one more example of human arrogance. In the long run, I believe this decision will be overturned. In the meantime, please count me in as an advocate who will do whatever I can to restore Pluto's rightful place in our solar system. You can also view my blog posting "In Defense of Pluto" at http://laurele.livejournal.com

[ugordan]

to restore Pluto's rightful place in our solar system.

It's not like anyone actually kicked Pluto out of our solar system or anything. Why don't you stand in defense of Ceres being reinstated as a planet, too? The decision to demote it could have also been considered "revisionist history". Why stop at Pluto? Why is it so special?

[laurele]

It's not like anyone actually kicked Pluto out of our solar system or anything. Why don't you stand in defense of Ceres being reinstated as a planet, too? The decision to demote it could have also been considered "revisionist history". Why stop at Pluto? Why is it so special?

I have no problem with Ceres being reinstated as a planet. In fact, I think the 12-planet scheme originally considered by the IAU is much more appropriate.

[ugordan]

I have no problem with Ceres being reinstated as a planet. In fact, I think the 12-planet scheme originally considered by the IAU is much more appropriate.

Then why aren't you pushing for that, instead of demanding that only Pluto be reinstated?

[laurele]

Then why aren't you pushing for that, instead of demanding that only Pluto be reinstated?

First, I would like to see this travesty of a decision by the IAU overturned, as I see it as a giant step backwards. I do and will advocate for the 12-planet alternative. Dr. Alan Stern is convening a conference of over 1,000 astronomers next summer to address this issue, and I'm pretty certain this scheme will be considered.

[ugordan]

The way I see it you're pushing for a petition to reinstate Pluto, not demanding the IAU to make a better definition. If the petition was for a better, less sloppy definiton of a planet, I'd gladly sign it. This merely looks like someone god pi**ed about their favourite pet planet not being a planet anymore. How's that for "human arrogance"?

IMO, the time of a nine-planet solar system has passed. Either we have 8, hack it down even more to 4 or we have 12 or more. Pushing for Pluto only is wrong and IMO shows you're not interested as much in a good planet definition, but are interested in Pluto only.

[Guest_Sedna_*]

The way I see it you're pushing for a petition to reinstate Pluto, not demanding the IAU to make a better definition. If the petition was for a better, less sloppy definiton of a planet, I'd gladly sign it. This merely looks like someone god pi**ed about their favourite pet planet not being a planet anymore. How's that for "human arrogance"?

IMO, the time of a nine-planet solar system has passed. Either we have 8, hack it down even more to 4 or we have 12 or more. Pushing for Pluto only is wrong and IMO shows you're not interested as much in a good planet definition, but are interested in Pluto only.

Good reasonement. What is Pluto? A dwarf planet, for humans of planet Earth (or for IAU, the AUTHORITY, though it may hurt to somebody...). Does it really matter what it is for us? Not really... I think it's not a planet. I'm not really in agreement in the new definition of "dwarf planet", I would set apart just planets and minor planets (or KBO's and Asteroid Belt big bodies with another name, maybe...), not intermediate bodies. Anyway, Pluto is Pluto, regardless of what we, just humans, say about such a body, or bodies like Pluto. It was doubted that Pluto was a planet when discovered, and it has been ruled out as such. An historical error has been corrected. New Horizons will now visit a new kind of body never (not even by Voyagers...) visited before. I find out that this is even more interesting that before, not the opposite.

[laurele]

Good reasonement. What is Pluto? A dwarf planet, for humans of planet Earth (or for IAU, the AUTHORITY, though it may hurt to somebody...). Does it really matter what it is for us? Not really... I think it's not a planet. I'm not really in agreement in the new definition of "dwarf planet", I would set apart just planets and minor planets (or KBO's and Asteroid Belt big bodies with another name, maybe...), not intermediate bodies. Anyway, Pluto is Pluto, regardless of what we, just humans, say about such a body, or bodies like Pluto. It was doubted that Pluto was a planet when discovered, and it has been ruled out as such. An historical error has been corrected. New Horizons will now visit a new kind of body never (not even by Voyagers...) visited before. I find out that this is even more interesting that before, not the opposite.

I have already stated that I want a better definition of the word "planet," and this is not just about Pluto. As for the IAU, I question who made them the "authority" on this? What about the equal number of planetary scientists who signed the dissenting petition? The process the IAU conducted was highly unprofessional and represents a very small portion of its entire membership. The way they went about making this decision detracts from their credibility. It's not a matter of anyone being personally hurt, but a matter of the havoc the IAU has created by going about its decision so poorly. Dr. Alan Stern described it as "sloppy science that would never pass peer review" and "an embarrassment to astronomy."

I'm glad you see the flaws with this "dwarf planet" definition and agree with the obvious statement that our perceptions and labeling do not change what Pluto is. At the same time, I have a serious problem with the IAU's designating it a number as just another asteroid, which it clearly is not.

Again, I repeat, Pluto has not been ruled out as being a planet. This debate will continue at Dr. Stern's conference next year, the IAU conference in 2009, and the New Horizons visit in 2015. I just think it's premature to assume this is a "done deal" when it clearly is not.

[Guest_Sedna_*]

I have already stated that I want a better definition of the word "planet," and this is not just about Pluto.

So do I, as a minor planet or such maybe...

As for the IAU, I question who made them the "authority" on this? What about the equal number of planetary scientists who signed the dissenting petition? The process the IAU conducted was highly unprofessional and represents a very small portion of its entire membership.

The authority made itself. Who made the President of the United Stated, or UK, or Spain such a President? People did. With IAU, astronomers did, one year ago, or 100 years ago...

The way they went about making this decision detracts from their credibility. It's not a matter of anyone being personally hurt, but a matter of the havoc the IAU has created by going about its decision so poorly. Dr. Alan Stern described it as "sloppy science that would never pass peer review" and "an embarrassment to astronomy."

Maybe you are pertaining to IAU, or you were in the Assembly... I wasn't yet, unfortunately... and, from my first news, I was decided to accept IAU's decision, even the first one of 12 planets... though I was eager to find out Pluto to be ruled out as a planet (why not Ceres if the opposite)? We all know that this Assembly was not decided to promote Ceres to planet status, but the opposite for Pluto, or to decide Pluto's status, not Ceres'. Is Ceres a planet? Maybe, but I stick to IAU's resolution, and neither Ceres nor Pluto are planets... A pity... Not, probably, but if the IAU decides to promote Ceres and Pluto (both of them, not just Pluto!) to the status of planet, I will have to accept it, regardless of my personal opinion. "Some people" can not be in agreement, but it's their business... Regarding IAU, will you accept "Eris" for 2003UB313, or will you find a better alternative name?... IAU is the authority, not decided by me, of course, but by most of astronomers... And, finally, Pluto was assigned a MP number. It was offered "10000" as a honour, but was not accepted... now they/we have to accept this second one, no other chance...

[laurele]

So do I, as a minor planet or such maybe...
The authority made itself. Who made the President of the United Stated, or UK, or Spain such a President? People did. With IAU, astronomers did, one year ago, or 100 years ago...
Maybe you are pertaining to IAU, or you were in the Assembly... I wasn't yet, unfortunately... and, from my first news, I was decided to accept IAU's decision, even the first one of 12 planets... though I was eager to find out Pluto to be ruled out as a planet (why not Ceres if the opposite)? We all know that this Assembly was not decided to promote Ceres to planet status, but the opposite for Pluto, or to decide Pluto's status, not Ceres'. Is Ceres a planet? Maybe, but I stick to IAU's resolution, and neither Ceres nor Pluto are planets... A pity... Not, probably, but if the IAU decides to promote Ceres and Pluto (both of them, not just Pluto!) to the status of planet, I will have to accept it, regardless of my personal opinion. "Some people" can not be in agreement, but it's their business... Regarding IAU, will you accept "Eris" for 2003UB313, or will you find a better alternative name?... IAU is the authority, not decided by me, of course, but by most of astronomers... And, finally, Pluto was assigned a MP number. It was offered "10000" as a honour, but was not accepted... now they/we have to accept this second one, no other chance...

The IAU made itself an authority? So what is to stop an alternative group from making itself an equal authority, as is likely to happen with Dr. Stern's conference of 1,000 astronomers next summer? What happens if the IAU is itself divided? The comparison with the president of the US doesn't hold because the president was elected in a very specific process laid out in the US Constitution. If that process were conducted in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution, the election would be voided and a new one held.

I was not present at the Assembly, but I do not choose to blindly accept whatever the IAU or any other organization or individual, for that matter, decides upon at any given time simply because they are considered an "authority." It's not even clear the group who voted represent a consensus within the IAU. We're talking 424 out of 10,000! It's not just individuals' business if they are not in agreement. We are talking about definitions and classifications that impact the entire world. If two groups of scientists are equally qualified to make the determination, why should one group's view take precedence over the other's? As far as Eris, I am more interested in it obtaining planet status than what its name is. Like I said, I think the 12-planet scheme is far more accurate.

I will admit I'm unfamiliar with the issue of Pluto being offered "10,000" as a number. Who made such an offer; who rejected it, and why does Pluto need a number at all? Why can't it simply be known as Pluto? And why do you say there is "no other chance" regarding this? There is always a chance to revisit an issue if the first decision was flawed. I'm curious; if next year Dr. Stern's group of 1,000 decides on a different definition of planet and adopts the 12-planet scheme, how will you decide which view to accept?

[Guest_Sedna_*]

The IAU made itself an authority? So what is to stop an alternative group from making itself an equal authority, as is likely to happen with Dr. Stern's conference of 1,000 astronomers next summer? What happens if the IAU is itself divided? The comparison with the president of the US doesn't hold because the president was elected in a very specific process laid out in the US Constitution. If that process were conducted in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution, the election would be voided and a new one held.

IAU made itself in the sense that, when it was constituted, astronomers arround the world accepted this association as the ruling one in astronomical affairs, such as definitions or naming issues. Will Dr. Stern constitute an alternate association? I don't know... A star could be, for instance, be named in two different ways or weird things like this... I think that this also "applies" somehow to the president of any country. Of course a big law baggage is set behind, but where you asked if you even wanted a president to be elected? Maybe you don't want ANY president, but you are told to elect one... IAU should be respected in the decisions it takes, even if those are not in agreement with our thoughts... Is a "coup d'etat" the solution for an unpopular decision of a goverment?

I was not present at the Assembly, but I do not choose to blindly accept whatever the IAU or any other organization or individual, for that matter, decides upon at any given time simply because they are considered an "authority." It's not even clear the group who voted represent a consensus within the IAU. We're talking 424 out of 10,000! It's not just individuals' business if they are not in agreement. We are talking about definitions and classifications that impact the entire world. If two groups of scientists are equally qualified to make the determination, why should one group's view take precedence over the other's? As far as Eris, I am more interested in it obtaining planet status than what its name is. Like I said, I think the 12-planet scheme is far more accurate.

424 members voted. Why not all of them?, it's their business, ask them... I think Pluto is not a planet, but if IAU had taken the decision to establish the 12-planet scheme, I would have accepted it... BTW, Eris seems to be a good name, doesn't it?

I will admit I'm unfamiliar with the issue of Pluto being offered "10,000" as a number. Who made such an offer; who rejected it, and why does Pluto need a number at all? Why can't it simply be known as Pluto? And why do you say there is "no other chance" regarding this? There is always a chance to revisit an issue if the first decision was flawed. I'm curious; if next year Dr. Stern's group of 1,000 decides on a different definition of planet and adopts the 12-planet scheme, how will you decide which view to accept?

I will accept, IAU's, for the time being. This is a serious thing, this is science and an authority is needed, like IUPAP in Physics or IUPAC in Chemistry. Why to give Pluto a number? Well, why do the asteroids "Pizarro" (4609) or "Valencia" (5941) need a number? Science needs to clasificate things, among many other things. Now Pluto, or 2003UB313 are "Minor Planets" and, as such, they have been given their numbers.