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Manned Landing On Titan, Issues & Answers?
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post Oct 19 2006, 09:08 PM
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Just got to thinking about some of the problems that may have to be addressed if & when we ever try to visit Titan in person.

The first thing that comes to mind is what might happen if some Titanian air gets inside an oxygen-rich manned spacecraft, say from minor airlock residue. I imagine that the explosive potential of some of the trace gasses is pretty high, and there's probably also a significant risk of poisonous compounds as well. So, here are some tenative requirements:

1. REALLY efficient air-scavenging airlocks.
2. Surface suits that can't trap external gasses in creases, folds, etc.
3. Spark-proof electrical/electronic everything.
4. Smoking is strictly forbidden (with apologies to the entire 1950s SF movie genre!) rolleyes.gif

Gotta be more...any ideas?


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post Oct 22 2006, 10:56 PM
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Oh, okay; so maybe the pressure differential isn't a big deal, then. Thanks! smile.gif

I have no idea how efficiently Titanian air could be scrubbed from an airlock, nor how long it would take. However, if pressure turns out not to be too big an issue physiologically, then keeping the lander cabin at a slightly higher pressure than the outside as you'd suggested before should stop most unwanted influx.

Here's another issue: How will they generate electricity? Solar cells are out, obviously. Would a whole bunch of RTGs do the trick, or would they need a somewhat larger nuclear power plant? (Of course, by the time we're actually able to do this we may well have compact fusion power sources...here's hoping! tongue.gif )

Come to that, would it be worthwhile to haul in a bunch of oxygen & run fuel cells? Are there some easy ways to liberate H2 from Titan's surface compounds? Or, would it be simpler to "burn" some of the simpler CH compounds as conventional fuels using our oxygen cache?


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JonClarke
post Oct 23 2006, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 22 2006, 10:56 PM) *
I have no idea how efficiently Titanian air could be scrubbed from an airlock, nor how long it would take. However, if pressure turns out not to be too big an issue physiologically, then keeping the lander cabin at a slightly higher pressure than the outside as you'd suggested before should stop most unwanted influx.


I have done some reading on particulate removal, which can be very fast and efficient, but don't know much about organic gases, which is why I asked. It would be interesting to find out how much pressure differential is required. Labs and factories that use hazardous materials run an\t lower pressures than the outside world, warships and some military vehicles operating under NBC conditions have higher internal presures to keep nasties in and out respectivively, this could serve as a guide for what would be required on Titan.

QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 22 2006, 10:56 PM) *
Here's another issue: How will they generate electricity? Solar cells are out, obviously. Would a whole bunch of RTGs do the trick, or would they need a somewhat larger nuclear power plant? (Of course, by the time we're actually able to do this we may well have compact fusion power sources...here's hoping! tongue.gif )


RTGs probably don't deliver enough power for a crewed mission. Failing compact fusion I think a fission reactor is the best option, at least initially. The high atmospheric density makes it easier to dispose of waste heat from a reactor on Titan than on the Moon or Mars, rather than relying on passive radiators (remember for every kW of electricity a reactor typically generates about 10 kW of waste heat), cooling fans would greatly increase the effectiveness of convection in dumping heat. Heat pads or rods into the ground would be another option, but you would not want to over do it.

For a permanant station, a wind farm might be an attractive supplement, given the low gravity, high atmospheric density, and presence of locally strong winds (there are lots of dunes on Titan). Titan has an internal heat source so geothermal (titanothermal?) power is another alternative.

QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 22 2006, 10:56 PM) *
Come to that, would it be worthwhile to haul in a bunch of oxygen & run fuel cells? Are there some easy ways to liberate H2 from Titan's surface compounds? Or, would it be simpler to "burn" some of the simpler CH compounds as conventional fuels using our oxygen cache?


Well the rocks appear to be water ice and ice clathrates, so with the waste heat you could melt the ice and electrolyse the water to oxygen. Methane and hydrogen could be recovered if needed, or simply dumped. The amount of methane in the Titanian atmosphere will support combusition with the addition of sufficient oxygen. So you could simply run reverse combustion engine, drawing ambient atmosphere into a combustion chamber, injecting oxygen, and igniting the mixture for example with a diesel engine or gas turbine. This makes long range ground vehicles and aircraft a much easier proposition than on Mars, for example. Methane and oxygen would be an ideal propellant combination for ascent and descent vehicles, although again, with sufficient plant and abundant atmospheric nitrogen, methane and a source of oxygen you could also manufacture storable hypergolics like hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide, if you needed to.

Jon
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Posts in this topic
- nprev   Manned Landing On Titan   Oct 19 2006, 09:08 PM
- - RedSky   In reference to your item #4... here's somethi...   Oct 19 2006, 09:48 PM
- - volcanopele   You definitely want a very efficient air filtering...   Oct 19 2006, 09:59 PM
- - ngunn   I would love to go, but I'd prefer to be insid...   Oct 20 2006, 01:15 PM
|- - ugordan   I find it compelling that you could go around on T...   Oct 20 2006, 01:28 PM
|- - JRehling   The really compelling thing (offset by many hazard...   Oct 20 2006, 09:08 PM
||- - dvandorn   QUOTE (JRehling @ Oct 20 2006, 04:08 PM) ...   Oct 21 2006, 03:18 AM
|- - mchan   QUOTE (ugordan @ Oct 20 2006, 06:28 AM) I...   Oct 21 2006, 02:28 AM
|- - Stephen   QUOTE (ugordan @ Oct 21 2006, 12:28 AM) I...   Nov 28 2007, 07:13 AM
- - JonClarke   A slightly higher internal than external pressure ...   Oct 21 2006, 06:19 AM
- - djellison   What would be the physiological effects of living ...   Oct 21 2006, 09:16 AM
- - nprev   1.6+ bar and mostly nitrogen to boot. If the lande...   Oct 21 2006, 12:19 PM
|- - JonClarke   QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 21 2006, 12:19 PM) 1.6...   Oct 22 2006, 09:05 AM
- - tasp   A vacuum capable airlock might be rather heavy to ...   Oct 21 2006, 02:09 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (tasp @ Oct 21 2006, 03:09 PM) but ...   Oct 21 2006, 11:27 PM
- - nprev   Yeah, I suspect that the funk factor of Titan...   Oct 21 2006, 10:14 PM
- - tasp   From the Titan chapter in The New Solar System, I ...   Oct 22 2006, 02:00 AM
- - nprev   Oh, okay; so maybe the pressure differential isn...   Oct 22 2006, 10:56 PM
|- - JonClarke   QUOTE (nprev @ Oct 22 2006, 10:56 PM) I h...   Oct 23 2006, 12:21 AM
- - RNeuhaus   How will the astronauts will be able to talk to th...   Oct 23 2006, 03:13 AM
|- - ugordan   Easily. They will not talk. They will send message...   Oct 23 2006, 07:02 AM
- - nprev   Yeah, on pretty much any body but the Moon real-ti...   Oct 23 2006, 07:41 AM
- - nprev   Reviving this thread just because it's interes...   Nov 24 2007, 08:08 AM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 24 2007, 03:08 AM) Rev...   Nov 24 2007, 02:45 PM
- - djellison   Look up how much effort they took to make sure the...   Nov 24 2007, 09:54 AM
- - nprev   Great, interesting thoughts as per usual, Mike...   Nov 24 2007, 03:21 PM
- - Reckless   Realising that Titan's atmosphere is 98% plus ...   Nov 24 2007, 03:45 PM
- - nprev   Only thing I can think of would be an electrical p...   Nov 24 2007, 04:35 PM
- - ngunn   Combustion is not my field but I'd be surprise...   Nov 24 2007, 05:07 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (ngunn @ Nov 24 2007, 12:07 PM) Com...   Nov 24 2007, 09:18 PM
- - nprev   Ah. Then we need to just ground the hell out of th...   Nov 24 2007, 06:46 PM
- - Reckless   Thanks for the replys all. I feel a lot safer now ...   Nov 24 2007, 08:04 PM
- - nprev   Eek. So, outside-only booties & gloves stowed ...   Nov 24 2007, 11:23 PM
- - tty   20 % O2 would seem excessive (and probably unhealt...   Nov 25 2007, 08:52 PM
- - nprev   Hey, that's a great point about self-sealing l...   Nov 25 2007, 11:45 PM
- - Juramike   Hydrocarbon solvents have a very low electical con...   Nov 26 2007, 12:29 AM
- - nprev   Think that would depend on the composition of the ...   Nov 26 2007, 01:02 AM
- - dvandorn   All in all, though, Nick, Titan offers more of the...   Nov 26 2007, 05:38 AM
|- - tty   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 26 2007, 06:38 AM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 07:16 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 25 2007, 09:38 PM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 12:00 PM
- - dvandorn   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 25 2007, 11:38 PM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 07:37 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 26 2007, 07:37 AM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 08:34 AM
- - dvandorn   Oh, I understand -- uranium has a higher potential...   Nov 26 2007, 08:43 AM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 26 2007, 08:43 AM) ...   Nov 26 2007, 09:08 AM
- - ngunn   Has anyone mentioned 'hydro'power? All you...   Nov 26 2007, 09:49 AM
- - Juramike   Nigel nailed it! There are lots of really goo...   Nov 26 2007, 12:52 PM
- - djellison   I assume this is all 500 years-from-now-Titan-colo...   Nov 26 2007, 01:41 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 26 2007, 01:41 PM)...   Nov 26 2007, 02:03 PM
- - tasp   'Tracking in' materials from outside might...   Nov 26 2007, 03:08 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (tasp @ Nov 26 2007, 10:08 AM) Tita...   Nov 26 2007, 03:47 PM
- - dvandorn   What still concerns me about any operations on Tit...   Nov 27 2007, 05:53 AM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Nov 27 2007, 05:53 AM) ...   Nov 27 2007, 09:34 AM
- - Juramike   The cold is going to be THE big problem facing pro...   Nov 27 2007, 01:30 PM
- - nprev   Odd how the analogies between Venus & Titan ke...   Nov 28 2007, 01:08 AM
- - edstrick   Some of the surface materials may DETONATE on bein...   Nov 28 2007, 09:25 AM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 28 2007, 09:25 AM) ...   Nov 28 2007, 09:44 AM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 28 2007, 04:25 AM) ...   Nov 28 2007, 09:15 PM
|- - rlorenz   Re: stuff blowing up on Titan QUOTE (Juramike ...   Dec 1 2007, 03:00 PM
- - nprev   Good grief... !!! Are you saying that...   Nov 29 2007, 01:04 AM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (nprev @ Nov 28 2007, 08:04 PM) Goo...   Nov 29 2007, 12:42 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Juramike @ Nov 29 2007, 12:42 PM) ...   Nov 29 2007, 12:51 PM
||- - Juramike   QUOTE (djellison @ Nov 29 2007, 07:51 AM)...   Nov 29 2007, 03:54 PM
|- - Shaka   QUOTE (Juramike @ Nov 29 2007, 02:42 AM) ...   Nov 29 2007, 07:04 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (Shaka @ Nov 29 2007, 11:04 AM) Are...   Nov 30 2007, 07:51 AM
- - edstrick   "Do you have a reference for this? I poked ar...   Nov 30 2007, 11:45 AM
- - nprev   ...thank you, Ed, but all credit to Shaka for that...   Dec 1 2007, 10:10 AM
- - nprev   Well, assuming for the moment that we're not l...   Dec 1 2007, 03:45 PM
|- - David   QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 1 2007, 03:45 PM) Well...   Dec 2 2007, 02:36 AM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (David @ Dec 1 2007, 06:36 PM) Ther...   Dec 2 2007, 05:57 AM
|- - David   QUOTE (nprev @ Dec 2 2007, 05:57 AM) True...   Dec 2 2007, 05:19 PM
- - dvandorn   How effectively, given current materials technolog...   Dec 2 2007, 08:35 AM
- - nprev   Ahrrr...har, har, har, David! Yeah, I'm ...   Dec 2 2007, 07:04 PM


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