IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Cameras For Msl, MSSS gets all the contracts
djellison
post Dec 14 2004, 08:34 PM
Post #1


Founder
****

Group: Chairman
Posts: 14433
Joined: 8-February 04
Member No.: 1



http://www.msss.com/press_releases/mslselection/index.html

Some astonishing proposals there - full colour motion descent imagery ohmy.gif

Not sure what use 10fps video is - as even MSL will still crawl along at a slow pace making it very boring viewing smile.gif Notice the HDTV resolution of it though - James Cameron has got involved - should be interesting!

Doug
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
tedstryk
post Jan 7 2005, 09:07 PM
Post #2


Interplanetary Dumpster Diver
****

Group: Admin
Posts: 4404
Joined: 17-February 04
From: Powell, TN
Member No.: 33



It seems quite difficult to imagine a rover picking such things out automatically. It took much processing of the Pathfinder images before dust devils were identified.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mark Rejhon
post Apr 18 2005, 05:40 AM
Post #3


Newbie
*

Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 18-April 05
Member No.: 243



QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jan 7 2005, 05:07 PM)
It seems quite difficult to imagine a rover picking such things out automatically.  It took much processing of the Pathfinder images before dust devils were identified.
*
Actually, it's easier than you think.

It's Mathematics 101.
(1) Verify rover is stationary (otherwise, don't bother executing motion detect)
(2) Verify camera is stationary (otherwise, don't bother executing motion detect)
(3) Snap picture X
(4) Snap picture X+1 about 0.25 seconds later. (Or you could even do 1 second intervals)
(5) Do simple mathematics of subtracting the corresponding pixels of image X+1 from X
(Optimization: Do this only for every Nth pixel horizontally and vertically, say every 4 or 8 pixels.)
(6) Total up all the differences between the corresponding pixel values between image X+1 from X, from the above step.
(7) If this numeric total SPIKES (either positive or negative bias).... there's motion! Start recording immediately.
(8) If numeric total is pretty close to 0, keep repeating steps 1-7.

With the suggested optimization included, this is easily doable on a slow 10 megahertz radiation-hardened processor, even for 2 megapixel images, processed every 0.25ms, using simplified assembly language. And this still leaves plenty of CPU overhead.

If the motion-detect performance optimization is included, it may miss dust devils smaller than 4 pixels across, but it will catch dust devils bigger than that. (Adjust performance optimizations to suit the needs of the down-clocked radiation-hardened CPU used.)

Noise will affect results, but noise can be measured in advance, and be used as a cutoff value, between motion versus no-motion. (i.e. how far away from zero, before motion is declared and video is automatically recorded)

Memory will definitely need to be big enough to hold two uncompressed images, for doing mathematics with at sufficiently realtime speeds.

MER had more powerful processors than 10Mhz, as I understand it (20 MIPS). Plus, memory was most certainly big enough (Something like 128MB). So assuming MSL has better specs, it is well positioned to almost certainly include automatic motion detection software. Even at its slow speeds, MER definitely has a CPU and RAM powerful enough to do motion detection -- if it weren't for the very slow pancam frame capture rate.

Checking every 4th pixel of a 2 megapixel image (4-step horizontally and vertically) only checks 1/16th of the pixels. You'd only need to watch a scant 90,000 pixels of a 2 megapixel image, to detect motion of objects bigger than 4 pixels. (Variables do apply here like noise, how faint the object is, so the object may need to be bigger to compensate for the faintness and still be above noise threshold, but you engineers get the idea of what I am talking about).

At approximately only 5 instructions per pixel (pixel load from X, pixel load from X+1, subtract the two, add result to an accumulator, increment pixel counter to load from next pixel), required for motion-detection mathematics, that's only 450,000 instructions. Plus a few instructions for end-of-row loop counter, and finally the cutoff value check. Let's be generous and throw in a crazy codebloat of 300%, by programming it in C++ instead of assembly, or waitstates caused by radiation-hardened ECC-type memory, etc. That's 2,000,000 instructions. A 20,000,000 instructions-per-second CPU can easily do the math, the same CPU used in the MER's. (At 0.25 seconds, you've got time to execute 5,000,000 instructions.) You can easily see where I am getting at, the MER hardware have specs capable of doing motion detection - if the cameras were able to capture fast enough.

Experimentation will be needed -- you may need to poll the image at different intervals such as -- every 1 second instead of 0.25 second, because the dust devils may not have moved much in 0.25 seconds. This makes it an even easier load on a CPU -- you'd only need to execute 450,000 instructions once a second -- a CPU load of less than 3%. (Or less than 12% for the 'bloated-code' version). In fact, there might even be enough CPU left to execute simultaneous motion detection algorithms for slow and fast moving objects, so that recording begins more quickly for fast moving objects, but still being able to detect slow moving objects or fainter objects.

Motion detection ain't rocket science -- even a high school graduate can do it.

Heck, even I can do it -- and there's no doubt the professional engineers will definitely do motion detection in MSL. It'd be stupid not to inlcude it, if you've got cameras capable of doing 10fps!

I programmed for an open-source realtime image video processor, at www.dscaler.org so I can vouch for what I am saying here. I'm listed in the 'Authors' credits. Go check it out.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- djellison   Cameras For Msl   Dec 14 2004, 08:34 PM
- - dot.dk   Nice to see video from MARS! Can't wai...   Dec 14 2004, 09:11 PM
- - tedstryk   With the Mars Telcom orbiter in limbo or dead, how...   Dec 14 2004, 10:14 PM
- - djellison   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Dec 14 2004, 10:14 PM)With ...   Dec 14 2004, 10:32 PM
- - tedstryk   Has anyone heard anything lately on the status of ...   Dec 14 2004, 11:29 PM
- - Sunspot   10:1 zoom.........cool, ive always wondered why th...   Dec 15 2004, 12:10 AM
- - Sunspot   A little more information on some of the other pro...   Dec 15 2004, 01:30 AM
- - Pando   I'm wondering what the actual CCD pixel resolu...   Dec 15 2004, 01:36 AM
- - djellison   Well - if the hand lends is 2.4 more than the MER ...   Dec 15 2004, 08:11 AM
- - YesRushGen   QUOTE (dot.dk @ Dec 14 2004, 09:11 PM)...NASA...   Dec 15 2004, 01:37 PM
- - djellison   Two $400M rovers - that's doable on the M...   Dec 15 2004, 02:10 PM
- - tedstryk   I don't know....I think if you include the nea...   Dec 15 2004, 02:50 PM
- - YesRushGen   QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 15 2004, 02:10 PM)Two ...   Dec 15 2004, 03:15 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Dec 14 2004, 10:14 PM)With ...   Dec 21 2004, 06:03 PM
- - djellison   Good point Alex - when I read his post i thought h...   Dec 21 2004, 06:16 PM
- - Sunspot   MTO gets a brief mention on the JPL future mission...   Dec 21 2004, 06:34 PM
- - djellison   http://acquisition.jpl.nasa.gov/rfp/mtodesignstudi...   Dec 21 2004, 08:36 PM
- - AlexBlackwell   QUOTE (Sunspot @ Dec 21 2004, 06:34 PM)MTO ge...   Dec 21 2004, 09:30 PM
- - djellison   It's an interesting challenge. 5W and 5KG - bu...   Dec 21 2004, 10:25 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Actually, there's one extremely detailed Web d...   Dec 28 2004, 09:49 AM
- - DEChengst   QUOTE (djellison @ Dec 15 2004, 08:11 AM)Well...   Dec 30 2004, 10:55 AM
- - DEChengst   QUOTE (YesRushGen @ Dec 15 2004, 01:37 PM)Tha...   Dec 30 2004, 11:04 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   There are, however, good reasons to think that a s...   Dec 31 2004, 03:38 AM
- - AlexBlackwell   MSSS is providing more technical information on th...   Jan 2 2005, 05:46 PM
- - DEChengst   The MastCam is going to be incredible. The PanCam ...   Jan 2 2005, 06:30 PM
- - djellison   Well - we'll all have new computers by then an...   Jan 2 2005, 06:34 PM
- - DEChengst   QUOTE (djellison @ Jan 2 2005, 06:34 PM)Well ...   Jan 2 2005, 06:48 PM
- - DEChengst   They should make the HDTV recording automatic. Hav...   Jan 6 2005, 08:04 PM
- - tedstryk   Except that by the time the dust devil had been id...   Jan 6 2005, 08:12 PM
- - DEChengst   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jan 6 2005, 08:12 PM)Except...   Jan 6 2005, 08:16 PM
- - slinted   I'm particularily interested in the MastCam us...   Jan 7 2005, 08:50 PM
- - tedstryk   It seems quite difficult to imagine a rover pickin...   Jan 7 2005, 09:07 PM
|- - Mark Rejhon   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jan 7 2005, 05:07 PM)It see...   Apr 18 2005, 05:40 AM
|- - Mark Rejhon   JPL succeeded in a crude form of motion-sensing on...   Apr 23 2005, 08:07 PM
- - DEChengst   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jan 7 2005, 09:07 PM)It see...   Jan 9 2005, 05:19 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   On the identifying dust devils front, perhaps opti...   Apr 23 2005, 09:24 PM
|- - tedstryk   So did Viking, though unlike Pathfinder it never p...   May 3 2005, 02:00 PM
- - DEChengst   Shortly after the announcment was made that MSSS w...   Feb 21 2005, 06:31 PM
- - jamescanvin   QUOTE (Sunspot @ Dec 15 2004, 01:30 AM)-- ...   Feb 28 2005, 06:28 AM
- - centsworth_II   "could this flashy colour video be used on th...   Feb 28 2005, 07:32 AM
- - djellison   The descent camera will make a movie - and the mas...   Feb 28 2005, 09:10 AM
- - MiniTES   QUOTE (centsworth_II @ Feb 28 2005, 07:32 AM)...   Feb 28 2005, 11:50 PM
- - lyford   Does anyone know the proposed height for the mast ...   Mar 25 2005, 04:01 AM
- - lyford   Well, I found this here. Looks like the mast is n...   Mar 25 2005, 05:40 PM
|- - erwan   Seems Batman will be on board?!   Mar 25 2005, 07:15 PM
||- - lyford   QUOTE (erwan @ Mar 25 2005, 11:15 AM)Seems Ba...   Mar 25 2005, 07:50 PM
|- - cIclops   QUOTE (lyford @ Mar 25 2005, 05:40 PM)Looks l...   Mar 25 2005, 08:34 PM
- - deglr6328   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Apr 23 2005, 09:24 PM)On th...   Apr 23 2005, 09:49 PM
- - djellison   Once you measure a pressure drop - the devil is ...   May 3 2005, 02:26 PM
- - Phil Stooke   In the case of a rock or a 'ripple' etc., ...   May 3 2005, 04:46 PM
- - dvandorn   If I'm not mistaken, didn't Pathfinder act...   May 3 2005, 06:49 PM
- - Mark Rejhon   Spirit just captured a spetacular series of dust d...   May 7 2005, 02:39 AM
- - dilo   OK, I'm a little bit disappointed why NASA did...   May 15 2005, 11:08 PM


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 12th June 2024 - 05:14 PM
RULES AND GUIDELINES
Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting.

IMAGE COPYRIGHT
Images posted on UnmannedSpaceflight.com may be copyrighted. Do not reproduce without permission. Read here for further information on space images and copyright.

OPINIONS AND MODERATION
Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators.
SUPPORT THE FORUM
Unmannedspaceflight.com is funded by the Planetary Society. Please consider supporting our work and many other projects by donating to the Society or becoming a member.