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Surface Chemistry of Titan
Juramike
post Mar 6 2007, 07:14 PM
Post #101


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The bulk of the liquid in the lakes on Titan is going to be a methane/ethane combination, but a lot of polymeric organic material is going to have been washed in from the terrain, as well as blown in from the dunes. (The lakes would be a dune trap). That means ice-silt and tholin-coated ice silt.

The higher-order organic polymers may act as a surfactant to coat the ice particles. I would hazard that the hydrophilic functionalities of the polymer subunits would side with the ice particle surface and the hydrophobic parts of the polymer would face the methane solvent. This would allow some really gnarly emulsions to set up.

A cross-section of a lake on Titan would look like a classic "nightmare extraction" sitting in a sep funnel in an organic chemistry laboratory. There would be a foamy goo or scum component floating on the surface, the methane/ethane layer as solvent possibly with low density organic shmeggums floating about, then a denser loose gelatinous organic polymer/solvent component full of organic yukkies (please excuse the med chem. technical jargon), then a more dense portion of organic polymer/organic solvent/water emulsion, and finally a water-ice silt bottom.

Water (ice) and organics are immiscible. But hexanes and acetonitrile (CH3CN) are also immiscible. By analogy, methane should also be immiscible with CH3CN (which would be a solid at Titan’s temperature, but a lower density component than ice). This should make for yet another fun emulsion possibility. [I’ve seen waaaaay too many ugly emulsions in sep funnels with “simple” organic components.]

With the complex organic chemistry at Titan, there is a very real possiblitiy of multiple layers of emulsions combined with an organic scum layer at the surface.

I’m not sure how any of this would affect specular reflections or even radar penetration. The surface would not look like the pretty foam of a bubble batch but more like the curd on overcooked pea soup.. Would certain layers reflect radar better than others? Can you get specular reflection when there are bubbles or “floaters” on the surface? What if the “floaters” are soft low density organics? How do organic emulsion blobs reflect radar?

The patterns we are seeing in the lower parts of the lakes may be channels in the goopy lower emulsion layers (think of the orange crud at the bottom of scummy ponds). I could imagine a scenario when higher density organic goo flows into the lakes and carves a path through the less dense emulsion. The real “bottoms” of the lakes may lie under meters of organic emulsion.

Lakes on Titan may resemble more of an open pit hazmat toxic waste dump (although I still like to think of it as “a pristine prebiotic environment”).


-Mike


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Posts in this topic
- Juramike   Surface Chemistry of Titan   Mar 6 2007, 07:14 PM
- - Stu   Wow, thanks nprev, praise indeed! As someone w...   Apr 1 2007, 09:24 AM
- - nprev   Not at all, Stu... ...good work! We need you ...   Apr 1 2007, 09:46 AM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (nprev @ Apr 1 2007, 09:46 AM) Abou...   Apr 1 2007, 09:57 AM
- - nprev   ...wow. Dr. Hawking is my all-time hero for many r...   Apr 2 2007, 05:03 PM
- - nprev   Okay, brief moment of inspiration for Stu's us...   Apr 2 2007, 05:26 PM
- - Juramike   I created a table of possible lower molecular weig...   Apr 26 2007, 08:45 PM
- - ngunn   An excellent resource, thank you very much. I had ...   Apr 26 2007, 09:00 PM
- - belleraphon1   All... several new papaers of interest to this t...   Apr 30 2007, 12:19 PM
- - The Messenger   Just a reminder: http://www.nature.com/nature/jou...   May 1 2007, 04:07 PM
- - DFortes   The near infrared spectrum of ammonium sulfate is ...   May 1 2007, 04:19 PM
- - Littlebit   QUOTE All molecules display a more or less pronoun...   May 1 2007, 07:07 PM
|- - remcook   QUOTE (Littlebit @ May 1 2007, 08:07 PM) ...   May 2 2007, 01:45 PM
- - belleraphon1   DFortes... Glad to have you onboard!!...   May 1 2007, 08:06 PM
- - Mongo   This is more atmospheric chemistry than surface ch...   May 2 2007, 02:02 AM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (Mongo @ May 1 2007, 08:02 PM) We f...   May 2 2007, 05:59 AM
- - Littlebit   QUOTE (Liang et al)The results for five variations...   May 2 2007, 08:41 PM
- - Juramike   Has anyone seen any papers that describe the react...   May 15 2007, 09:31 PM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (Juramike @ May 15 2007, 09:31 PM) ...   May 15 2007, 09:33 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (Stu @ May 15 2007, 05:33 PM) This ...   May 15 2007, 09:46 PM
|- - Stu   QUOTE (Juramike @ May 15 2007, 09:46 PM) ...   May 16 2007, 07:40 AM
|- - TheChemist   QUOTE (Juramike @ May 16 2007, 12:46 AM) ...   May 16 2007, 11:12 AM
- - lyford   You know, between this and the other Titan threads...   May 15 2007, 11:36 PM
- - nprev   Mike, we dawgs thank you for your impressive resea...   May 16 2007, 02:22 AM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (nprev @ May 16 2007, 03:22 AM) IR ...   May 16 2007, 02:16 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (nprev @ May 15 2007, 10:22 PM) IR ...   May 16 2007, 03:00 PM
- - remcook   As far as I know, people have just made tholins un...   May 16 2007, 07:03 AM
- - Stu   Woof woof woof... arf arff grrrrr wuff! (tra...   May 16 2007, 12:48 PM
- - ngunn   Some thoughts from a doggy-chemist (more scents th...   May 16 2007, 01:00 PM
- - belleraphon1   Yeroooorlwwww. This cool cat TRULY appreciates a...   May 16 2007, 01:49 PM
- - Littlebit   Once sulfates are included in the resource list, n...   May 16 2007, 02:16 PM
- - Juramike   Two really interesting papers relevant to this thr...   May 16 2007, 02:48 PM
- - nprev   Woof! <whine>...I'm utterly convince...   May 16 2007, 03:37 PM
- - Littlebit   The dielectric content of polar molecules, includi...   May 16 2007, 05:07 PM
- - Juramike   Does anyone know how deep RADAR scatterometry (for...   May 16 2007, 09:58 PM
|- - belleraphon1   QUOTE (Juramike @ May 16 2007, 05:58 PM) ...   May 16 2007, 11:11 PM
||- - nprev   QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ May 16 2007, 04:11 ...   May 16 2007, 11:36 PM
||- - TheChemist   QUOTE (nprev @ May 17 2007, 02:36 AM) Fra...   May 17 2007, 10:21 AM
||- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (TheChemist @ May 17 2007, 06:21 AM...   May 17 2007, 02:50 PM
||- - TheChemist   QUOTE (centsworth_II @ May 17 2007, 05:50...   May 18 2007, 08:33 AM
|- - Littlebit   QUOTE (Juramike @ May 16 2007, 03:58 PM) ...   May 17 2007, 07:49 PM
- - ngunn   Some thoughts on the complexity of Titan - Certa...   May 17 2007, 02:54 PM
|- - Mongo   QUOTE (ngunn @ May 17 2007, 02:54 PM) I h...   May 20 2007, 02:58 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (Mongo @ May 20 2007, 03:58 PM) If ...   May 20 2007, 03:52 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (ngunn @ May 20 2007, 11:52 AM) Bef...   May 20 2007, 04:11 PM
- - Juramike   The Complex Titan Scenario has some precedent in ...   May 17 2007, 03:54 PM
- - ngunn   Exactly so. In Cairns-Smith's clay hypothesis ...   May 17 2007, 06:15 PM
- - Juramike   Here are two interesting papers on tholins: Berna...   May 18 2007, 08:59 PM
- - TheChemist   As much I would like to see all these instruments ...   May 19 2007, 07:41 AM
- - nprev   No apology necessary at all, Chemist; your point w...   May 19 2007, 06:24 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (nprev @ May 19 2007, 07:24 PM) Rou...   May 19 2007, 07:42 PM
|- - nprev   QUOTE (ngunn @ May 19 2007, 12:42 PM) Do ...   May 19 2007, 10:55 PM
|- - ngunn   QUOTE (nprev @ May 19 2007, 11:55 PM) Thi...   May 20 2007, 03:23 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (ngunn @ May 20 2007, 11:23 AM) No ...   May 23 2007, 08:05 AM
- - edstrick   It's abundantly clear by now that the real com...   May 20 2007, 09:28 AM
- - Mongo   I am not sure I agree. If the Complex Titan Scena...   May 20 2007, 04:25 PM
- - nprev   I think I see where you're coming from, Mongo;...   May 20 2007, 08:22 PM
- - ngunn   Well I'd be happy to be wrong about that (thou...   May 20 2007, 08:26 PM
- - nprev   Hmm. True, ngunn. Really makes you wonder what m...   May 20 2007, 08:30 PM
- - Mongo   I am sure that complex autocatalytic systems (I am...   May 20 2007, 08:48 PM
- - ngunn   For me, the live issue is that we need to be on th...   May 20 2007, 09:33 PM
- - nprev   I doubt very much that Cassini can decisively answ...   May 21 2007, 12:12 AM
- - Littlebit   Instrumentation should be relatively easy on the n...   May 21 2007, 01:44 PM
- - edstrick   "...What needs to be developed are autosample...   May 22 2007, 09:16 AM
- - Juramike   (From rlorenz's post on Titan's lakes reve...   May 30 2007, 07:56 PM
- - Juramike   I updated the list from post 106 (this thread). T...   Jun 1 2007, 10:00 PM
- - Juramike   From the CICLOPS “Looking ahead” post for Rev 48 (...   Jul 22 2007, 04:57 PM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (Juramike @ Jul 22 2007, 12:57 PM) ...   Jul 23 2007, 02:26 PM
- - edstrick   "The lakes and seas of Titan just got even mo...   Jul 23 2007, 06:45 AM
- - TheChemist   Benzene dunes ? Well, I did some polymerization...   Jul 23 2007, 08:26 AM
- - Juramike   QUOTE (TheChemist @ Jul 23 2007, 04:26 AM...   Jul 23 2007, 04:50 PM
- - nprev   On the lighter side, you definitely wouldn't l...   Jul 31 2007, 01:05 PM
- - remcook   regarding composition: here's a presentation f...   Jul 31 2007, 03:42 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (remcook @ Jul 31 2007, 11:42 AM) r...   Aug 10 2007, 09:48 PM
- - nprev   marsbug: It would be fascinating to dig through la...   Jul 31 2007, 04:05 PM
- - TheChemist   Guys, I hate to spoil your enthusiasm, but I doubt...   Aug 1 2007, 11:10 AM
|- - belleraphon1   QUOTE (TheChemist @ Aug 1 2007, 07:10 AM)...   Aug 1 2007, 11:47 AM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (TheChemist @ Aug 1 2007, 07:10 AM)...   Aug 1 2007, 03:38 PM
|- - TheChemist   QUOTE (Juramike @ Aug 1 2007, 06:38 PM) T...   Aug 2 2007, 08:59 AM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (TheChemist @ Aug 2 2007, 04:59 AM)...   Aug 4 2007, 02:54 PM
- - Juramike   Thanks for the links! And I had access to the...   Aug 2 2007, 10:35 PM
- - ngunn   Thanks for that excellent link, rlorenz. All 117 ...   Aug 8 2007, 11:23 AM
- - Juramike   Thank you for the excellent reference! From p...   Aug 9 2007, 04:26 PM
|- - belleraphon1   QUOTE (Juramike @ Aug 9 2007, 12:26 PM) S...   Aug 10 2007, 02:37 AM
||- - ngunn   QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ Aug 10 2007, 03:37 ...   Aug 14 2007, 02:54 PM
|- - TheChemist   What a cool thread we have here ! QUOTE (Jur...   Aug 10 2007, 08:08 AM
|- - rlorenz   QUOTE (Juramike @ Aug 9 2007, 12:26 PM) A...   Aug 10 2007, 12:32 PM
- - marsbug   Just having fun with an idea that may be utter rub...   Aug 9 2007, 04:36 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (marsbug @ Aug 9 2007, 12:36 PM) Th...   Aug 10 2007, 11:18 PM
- - belleraphon1   Thanks rlorenz .... Wonderful report.... I have ...   Aug 9 2007, 07:03 PM
- - nprev   Belleraphon, I completely agree that Mike needs to...   Aug 10 2007, 10:05 PM
- - belleraphon1   nprev... (I know you are AI... is it gauch to ask ...   Aug 11 2007, 04:05 AM
- - marsbug   Here is a link to the letter in nature describing ...   Aug 13 2007, 01:29 PM
- - Littlebit   They kinda step sideways into the assumption that ...   Aug 13 2007, 08:49 PM
- - remcook   QUOTE 1) No ammonia has been found in the upper at...   Aug 14 2007, 09:22 AM
- - belleraphon1   A great post from Emily at TPS. http://www.plane...   Aug 16 2007, 10:19 PM
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