Russians On Moon, Russians on Moon Options

[dvandorn]

One more little note of interest -- since the LOK/LK was set up such that there was no connecting tunnel between the orbiter and the lander, the LK crewman had to transfer to and from his craft via EVA. That's why the very first Soyuz mission was planned to demonstrate EVA transfer between two vehicles. It wasn't accomplished until the dual Soyuz 4/5 flight, but it was originally the plan for Soyuz 1/2 to perform a crew transfer.

-the other Doug

[RNeuhaus]

All above appends have very interesting history that have happened when I was a innocent boy from high school. I was following very close on Apollo programs and knew very little except of the successfull moonlanding of Lunokhod.

Now Russians are willing to cooperate with Americans along with Europeans (Asians have not yet have expressed) to conquer Mars and hope it won't be a race among them in any way.

Rodolfo

[ilbasso]

The space race felt very scary at times to us average citizens. The Soviet Union launched an unmanned probe to the Moon about 2 weeks before Apollo 11 took off. There was no news about this probe other than it had entered lunar orbit. Without real news as to its intent, speculation ran rampant. Were they going to try to return a sample to Earth before Apollo 11 could? Or, were they going to try to crash it into Apollo 11? Or was it out of control?

We learned later that the Soviet government had assured the US government that the probe was in a different orbit and posed no threat to Apollo 11.

We are lucky now that governments for the most part (excepting spy satellite missions) announce their launches in advance and share the information. But it wasn't all that long ago that the Department of Defense flew a large number of Space Shuttle missions and gave no public info on the missions other than the launch date.

[ronatu]

Ironically enough, Soviet (now russian) spaceship Soyuz probably going to be the first piloted spaceship flying around the Moon after more then 30 years...
Adding more irony that Soyuz will carry a couple of Americans as tourists...
What a turn!

*A man is not old until regrests start taking the place of dreams...*

[ronatu]

One more little note of interest -- since the LOK/LK was set up such that there was no connecting tunnel between the orbiter and the lander, the LK crewman had to transfer to and from his craft via EVA.  That's why the very first Soyuz mission was planned to demonstrate EVA transfer between two vehicles.  It wasn't accomplished until the dual Soyuz 4/5 flight, but it was originally the plan for Soyuz 1/2 to perform a crew transfer.

-the other Doug

It was planed for Soyuz 2/3

[ronatu]

What I still don't understand is the failure of the "heavy" lunar orbiters to return hardly any information of interest.  With the payload capability of the Luna sample return and Lunokhod missions placed in orbit instead of landing, they clearly carried a lot of payload, but it's been minimally described and a bare minimum of science results published...

Russians always being not very good with publishing - first it was not allowed, now - there is no motivation...

[paxdan]

private venture to put a soyuz round the moon.

*slaps forehead*

d'oh! it's so simple i can't believe i didn't think of it.

*rkrygkrrkyrr*

the sound of NASA bosses grinding their teeth.

Anyone reckon the Chinese might try something like this within the next few launches? Is bunging up a couple of guys on a free return trajectory within their launch capability?

[RNeuhaus]

Ticket to Moon is already for sale. 2 vacants for US$100 millions per preson. Contact with the company: Deap Space Exploration - Alpha, Arlington.

The trip details are still being worked out, but two scenarios are possible.

1) One requires the crew to dock at the ISS for up to 14 days before launching off on an approximate six-day flight to the moon.

2) the ISS will not be used and the crew will orbit the Earth for approximately three days before blasting off for the moon.

This company has identified over 1000 individuals who have the financial resources to afford such a flight. Maybe, there will be a big raffle company to pick up one very lucky winner.

Have a nice trip to Moon! The best bet time that this will happen is by the year 2008!

Click here for more information.

Rodolfo

[RedSky]

To the Moon....

Just a few weeks ago at the other Mars board, the subject of tourism to and beyond low earth orbit came up. I suggested that it might be feasible for Russia to do so when (if) its new 6 passenger Kliper vehicle became available. If they put a Mir core-type (Zvesda) module into LEO, they could then use it as living quarters for a swingby trip around the moon. The start of the tourist mission would begin with a transfer stage (say, something like the old Saturn S4B upper stage) docking to the core. Once done, the Kliper would go up a few days later and dock to the core with 2 pilots and 4 passengers. Then they would TLI the "Lunar Swingby Station" into a free-return trajectory around the moon. Not only would there be a day or two of good moon viewing... but don't forget what the view of approaching earth from that distance would be like! Then, upon return, a burn from the transfer stage would put the assembly into a high capture orbit. This would be lowered over a few days, until the Core was back in its normal parking orbit. The Transfer Stage is then jettisoned and deorbited into the ocean. The Kliper then returns from LEO as it normally would. Then, every few tourist missions, the Core would be visited by a dedicated re-stocking mission.

I never dreamed they'd try offering this now! The reason I thought this would all wait until the 6-person Kliper is that just having one passenger in a Soyuz would probably not be that cost-effective. Even though the original Soyuz was meant to be a lunar ship (comparable to the Apollo CSM), and could probably be re-adapted to that purpose, it would be a very stoic passenger indeed to be willing to spend $100 million for a week in a tiny Soyuz with 2 cosmonauts.

With 4 passengers in a Kliper and a Core living module, though, that's $400 million in sales per mission, which even might make a profit. Besides the Kliper, the only added development would be the transfer stage, that might have to be more powerful than the S4B in order for the earth return capture burns, instead of a direct fast entry. But the savings in the reuse of the (Mir) Core might make having that larger stage worthwile just for the return capture.

[Bob Shaw]

As I understand the proposal, there are indeed two options. One uses an on-orbit life-expired 'Taxi' Soyuz with a Zond heatshield, while the other involves a dedicated Lunar Soyuz launch. Obviously, the former saves money, and gives any paying passenger(s) a week or so aboard the ISS, too. Speaking of which, some sources are quoting two passengers, which might preclude the Taxi option - but would pay the Russians rather more. I don't doubt that a l-o-o-o-n-g queue of returning ISS crews would be prepared to spend a few days extra in cramped quarters in order to visit the Moon, somehow!

In any case, the next step after organising the presence in LEO of a crewed Soyuz is to launch (according to some tiny graphics I saw) what looks like a Breeze-M upper stage on a Proton. You will all be aware, of course, that Breeze-M is based on the original Zond translunar escape stage, making history repeat itself to a pleasing degree. However, things get still more interesting. Zond was launched atop it's translunar stage, and with no Orbital Module. The new proposals seem to show a Pirs-class Habitation Module attached to the upper stage, with which the Soyuz would dock, thereby providing both a physical connection and extra living space. Presumably, 35 years of gradual improvement to Proton will have upped it's payload weight to the point where the margins are more than adequate. So, it's not merely a trip to the Moon aboard a Soyuz, but there's a nice big extra room (with a view) too!

I'm saving already!

[RedSky]

... Speaking of which, some sources are quoting two passengers, which might preclude the Taxi option - but would pay the Russians rather more.

I really wouldn't have thought a 2-passenger option as being feasible. Would it really be prudent for there to be 2 passengers and only one pilot in a Soyuz for a 7-day circumlunar trip? From a matter of potential health problems, I would want at least another qualified pilot there. I doubt the passengers' space training would involve Soyuz piloting.

That's why I always thought a mission like this would wait for the 6-man Kliper (2 pilots and 4 paying passengers), and a larger living module (like a Mir Core, or smaller Salute-type module) that was reusable and stayed in a LEO parking orbit between tourist missions.

[dvandorn]

It ((Soyuz crew transfer)) was planed for Soyuz 2/3

Actually, it was planned for Soyuz 1/2 -- after Komarov's launch on Soyuz 1, a three-man crew was set to launch in Soyuz 2 within two days. A rendezvous and docking, followed by transfer of two of the Soyuz 2 crew into Soyuz 1, was planned. (This is documented in several different places, and is also inherent in the Soviet announcement of the launch of Soyuz 1 -- the Sovs never gave a number to the first flight of a new spacecraft. The announcement of the vehicle as Soyuz 1 was a confirmation to the West that a second Soyuz was planned to fly within a few days.)

After one of Soyuz 1's solar panels failed to deploy, the planned launch of Soyuz 2 was canceled and the Soviets began to plan for Komarov's early return (although, apparently, some Soviet mission planners argued for Soyuz 2 to fly, and its EVA crewmen to go out and fix the solar panel problem). It's a *very* good thing they didn't launch Soyuz 2, since it shared the same problem Soyuz 1 had with the "sticky" parachute canister. Had Soyuz 2 flown, it would have crashed and killed its crew, as well.

As for the Soyuz 2/3 mission, I'm pretty certain that it was always designed to be a rendezvous and docking between a manned Soyuz and an unmanned Soyuz. (We're talking about the Soyuz 2/3 flight as it was designed after the Soyuz 1 accident.) I don't think the lone Soyuz crewman was going to transfer to the unmanned vehicle had the docking worked (which it didn't).

-the other Doug

[ljk4-1]

Moonscam: Russians try to sell the Moon for foreign cash
---

In recent weeks Russians have discussed the possibility of
establishing a lunar base on their own, perhaps to refine helium-3.

James Oberg examines these pronouncements and sees them as another
effort by Russian companies to win foreign funding.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/551/1

[PhilHorzempa]

I thought that this would be the appropriate thread in which to post this
article from The Planetary Society detailing ongoing plans between Russia and
Europe to develop an ACTS, Advanced Crew Transportation System.

http://www.planetary.org/news/2006/0628_Eu...s_to_Study.html



You may recall that there was discussion that Europe and Russia might
cooperate on building the new Clipper mini-shuttle space plane. It seems that
after more closely examining where manned spaceflight is heading in the next
few decades, i.e., the Moon and Mars, that they have ditched the Clipper
proposal. Instead, they seem to be considering a capsule design, perhaps
a larger version of the Soyuz. Doesn't this sound like "Zond-On-Steroids"?



Another Phil

[Guest_MarkG_*]

'Challenge to Apollo' is well worth a read if you haven't come across it already. I think this is the URL:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntr..._2000122281.pdf

(Note: it's about an 85MB file)