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Unmanned Spaceflight.com _ MSL _ MSL landing site: Gale Crater

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 23 2011, 05:13 AM

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110623/full/news.2011.380.html

Posted by: brellis Jun 23 2011, 05:21 AM

Looks like Gusev. How does it compare?

Posted by: djellison Jun 23 2011, 05:29 AM

Totally different. A central peak that exposes 5km of layered rock, for starters. A delta in the landing ellipse.

Ryan et.al. have by far the best analysis and study of the place.

http://martianchronicles.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/gale-crater-geomorphology-paper-published/


Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jun 23 2011, 05:52 AM

...and here's a little mind-blowing 3D animation flyover that Doug put together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh_bfrl9wk0

not to mention this one that our friend MARS3D did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq0Z3cKJaGQ

Posted by: vjkane Jun 23 2011, 06:02 AM

I had been hoping for Mawrth Vallis, since it appears to be the oldest, and the mineralogy seems clearest (at least to this non-geologist). Any of the sites would be great for science, though, and Gale would probably be the most scenic.

The Nature article talks about the sedimentologists, who favored the three crater sites, and the mineralogists who favored Mawrth. Perhaps the 2018 rover, will visit a mineralogy site. I think Mawrth may be too far north for that mission, but there are other interesting sites being considered. If MSL strikes organics at Gale, we may get two rovers to the same location.

Posted by: djellison Jun 23 2011, 06:10 AM

A longer animation involving more data from HRSC/CTX/HiRISE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvXHu-U02UE

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 23 2011, 06:38 AM

Although it appears to be about mineralogists vs geomorphologists all over again, this time there is abundant evidence that the geomorphologically interesting site of Gale also includes interesting mineralogy.

Posted by: ngunn Jun 23 2011, 07:09 AM

Very nice, Doug. Is that with or without vertical stretch?

I was surprised by this from the Nature article:

"Mawrth Vallis has been ruled out, even as they acknowledge that its lack of scenic vistas — important in drawing the public into a mission — could be a major failing."

That's quite a strong statement. Did this really carry any weight in the selection process? If so, it would be saying a lot about the public impact the MERs have achieved. That's something to cheer certainly, but at the same time it's rather sobering. Much as I love the vistas, I find myself wondering how far I'd want planetary exploration to move in the direction of crowd pleasing.

Posted by: djellison Jun 23 2011, 07:17 AM

QUOTE (ngunn @ Jun 23 2011, 12:09 AM) *
Is that with or without vertical stretch?

Without.


QUOTE
Did this really carry any weight in the selection process?


The conclusion of the 5th landing site meeting was this - ALL the sites were scientifically interesting and all met the engineering requirements. There was no scientific consensus that puts one above the other. So - did aesthetics play into it? They were certainly mentioned at the landing site meeting - and all other things being equal, I don't know why they shouldn't. If you have four safe, interesting landing sites that the science community can't choose between, then why not go to the most spectacular one?

One good side-effect of Gale - it's a very very low landing site. This could offer lots of spare time margin for EDL.

Posted by: AndyG Jun 23 2011, 10:23 AM

QUOTE (ngunn @ Jun 23 2011, 08:09 AM) *
Much as I love the vistas, I find myself wondering how far I'd want planetary exploration to move in the direction of crowd pleasing.


Science obviously has to come first - but I personally found the Phoenix "vistas" utterly soulless. Flat arctic, as far as the camera could see. With a nod to The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu, it really was "grim up north".

Andy

Posted by: antipode Jun 23 2011, 12:19 PM

Fair enough, but just about everything else about the Phoenix mission was absolutely fascinating AND important. Although I too was disappointed with the terrain, I wouldnt want to exchange a visible mesa or two for everything else that mission gave us.

Plus - if it had been a rover, really interesting terrain would have been within a reasonable traverse anyway.

p

Posted by: vjkane Jun 23 2011, 12:22 PM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Jun 22 2011, 10:38 PM) *
Although it appears to be about mineralogists vs geomorphologists all over again, this time there is abundant evidence that the geomorphologically interesting site of Gale also includes interesting mineralogy.

All four sites have abundantly interesting mineralogy. I believe the difference is that with Mawrth, it was more obvious that the clays, etc. were formed in place. The concern I read about the other sites was that the minerals may have been carried in and may not represent substantial deposits. However, I'm not a geologist! So these thoughts really should be read as a question. Any geologists care to comment on whether this is actually a concern?

However, my real reason for favoring Mawrth was that it was the oldest of the sites, and sites like it may be the only records of the earliest processes on a world with a (then) significant atmosphere and available water. The world's experts on these issues also knew this, and went with a different site, so this was not a compelling argument. So Gale it apparently will be.

Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 23 2011, 12:44 PM

QUOTE (vjkane @ Jun 23 2011, 07:22 AM) *
...So Gale it apparently will be.
Or not. From the same article:
"The scientists' endorsement of Gale Crater does not ensure that it will be selected by NASA management. Another site, Eberswalde Crater, which contains a relic river delta and — perhaps — buried evidence of organics in the lakebed deposits into which the river flowed, was ranked a very close second."

Posted by: Juramike Jun 23 2011, 01:24 PM

Eberswalde is still my favorite. It has the advantage of having the whole drainage network pretty much defined. So you know how much stuff washed out and where it washed out from.

That's a neat little tidy package that would remove one unknown from the system. (Thus avoiding the "Where the heck did this come from?" question)

Posted by: djellison Jun 23 2011, 01:44 PM

QUOTE (Juramike @ Jun 23 2011, 06:24 AM) *
. It has the advantage


Clearly not an advantage, or it would have risen above the other sites on scientific merit.

Posted by: Stu Jun 23 2011, 01:50 PM

The more of those stunning "flyover" animations I see, the more I wish we had a plane, or an airship, or a balloon, flying low over Mars taking images like that, Red Mars style...

Sigh... Maybe one day...


Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 23 2011, 01:58 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 23 2011, 08:44 AM) *
Clearly not an advantage...
Of course its an advantage. Each site has its unique advantage as well as disadvantage. The disadvantage of the Eberswalde site is that it may have formed over a short period of time and not represent much of an historical record.

Posted by: djellison Jun 23 2011, 02:02 PM

Quite clearly I meant an advantage over the other sites.

No site had that.

Posted by: Paul Fjeld Jun 23 2011, 02:32 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 23 2011, 01:10 AM) *
A longer animation involving more data from HRSC/CTX/HiRISE

Really great stuff, Doug. Thanks!

I had a chance to talk with one of the MSL Co-Is about the landing site selection a few months ago and expressed a strong hope that Gale would be selected. She was a bit taken aback and asked why? I said it was dramatic and pretty. She didn't care much about that. From your animation, Doug, it also looks "cool."

Posted by: eoincampbell Jun 23 2011, 02:45 PM

"Nature has learned that it rose to the top last month following a secret ranking"
Oops, did someone let the cat out of the bag?... smile.gif

Posted by: PDP8E Jun 23 2011, 04:00 PM

Yea!! I was soooo rooting for Gale!
GO MSL!


Posted by: Julius Jun 23 2011, 07:39 PM

I see that those who have been lobbying for GALE seem to be having it their way at last! I was more keen on Mawrth which didnt seem to have been favoured for most of the time ..thats my impression ! Oh well, despite this, Gale seems to be an exciting destination and now just hope that Curiosity gets to MARS!

Posted by: Sunspot Jun 23 2011, 07:45 PM

Hopefully the good stuff isnt bured like at Gusev.

Posted by: Julius Jun 23 2011, 07:48 PM

well said sunspot..I feel that NASA wants to make up for the disappointment of landing Spirit in Gusev and now we get Gale.

Posted by: Julius Jun 23 2011, 07:51 PM

To be fair, there seems to be a lot of traversibility for the rover to do and thus years of work on Mars which is exciting in itself.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 23 2011, 08:27 PM

Guys, it's not the same as Gusev. CRISM sees plenty of evidence for interesting mineralogy at Gale. We KNOW the clay and sulfate minerals are there.

Posted by: Julius Jun 23 2011, 08:34 PM

Having sulphates and clays at the same site could be interesting in identifying climatic changes that occurred 3-4 billion years ago not to mention dinosaur bones! laugh.gif

Posted by: eoincampbell Jun 23 2011, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Jun 23 2011, 01:27 PM) *
Guys, it's not the same as Gusev.


Was there not enough orbital data to avoid the "crushing disappointment"(S.Squyres) after landing at Gusev ?

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 23 2011, 09:05 PM

Not even close. CRISM wasn't in orbit, remember. CRISM can do two things that THEMIS couldn't: it has much much higher resolution (so it can spot deposits with smaller spatial extent) and it's near-infrared, which makes it much easier to pick up the presence of water and hydroxyl, which is how you identify the presence of clays.

Posted by: monitorlizard Jun 23 2011, 09:58 PM

I do believe the fact that Gale is by far the closest to the Martian equator of the four candidate landing sites was a factor (and not a minor one) in its presumed choice. The recent OIG audit of MSL, mentioned on another thread, said that "expected performance of the rover's power generation system, the...MMRTG, has been reduced." That brings back the question of how much of the energy budget is needed to electrically heat actuators all over the rover each morning, and that makes a near-equator landing site very attractive again.

That said, I have absolutely nothing against Gale as a science site. It has lots of interesting features, and the phyllosilicates that are probably the best hope for finding organics.

The above quote was from page 6 of: http://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY11/IG-11-019.pdf

Posted by: elakdawalla Jun 23 2011, 10:18 PM

I think you're right that that might have entered into their decisionmaking process. The southern sites especially would see pretty big extremes over the course of the year. Nothing that the rover couldn't handle, of course -- it would have been fine -- but it does make planning more complex when your power fluctuates so much over the course of a year.

Posted by: brellis Jun 24 2011, 02:29 AM

QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Jun 23 2011, 01:27 PM) *
Guys, it's not the same as Gusev.


I should've said it looks the same size as Gusev. smile.gif

Thanks for the exciting details. Gotta stock up on the popcorn, this should be a great show! mars.gif

Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 24 2011, 12:13 PM

There is one thing Gale has that Gusev is lacking. Can you pick it out? laugh.gif


Posted by: Drkskywxlt Jun 24 2011, 03:29 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jun 23 2011, 01:10 AM) *
A longer animation involving more data from HRSC/CTX/HiRISE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvXHu-U02UE


What is the green line supposed to indicate, Doug?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 24 2011, 03:35 PM

A 'notional' traverse route.

Phil

Posted by: djellison Jun 24 2011, 04:02 PM

Yup - a couple of possible traverse routes from Bell/Anderson.

Posted by: Drkskywxlt Jun 24 2011, 04:20 PM

I vote for the rightside squiggly-looking traverse route cool.gif

Posted by: djellison Jun 24 2011, 04:42 PM

So does driveability analysis based on HiRISE DTM's and other data.

Posted by: Drkskywxlt Jun 25 2011, 12:13 AM

Interesting...it seemed like the rougher terrain was in that direction from your video. Looks can be deceiving.

Posted by: Oersted Jun 27 2011, 12:25 AM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jun 23 2011, 07:52 AM) *
...and here's a little mind-blowing 3D animation flyover that Doug put together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh_bfrl9wk0


"The terrain has accurate vertical scaling and is not exaggerated."

blink.gif Wauw.

Posted by: djellison Jun 27 2011, 05:07 AM

That area is outside the landing ellipse, fyi.

Posted by: KrisK Jun 28 2011, 10:07 AM

QUOTE
However, the final decision has not been made or announced, and NASA Associate Administrator Ed Weiler has the final word. He is expected to make the final decision on Friday with a formal announcement of the site to follow next week.

http://www.universetoday.com/87047/gale-crater-reported-front-runner-for-msl-landing-site/

We are now in this "next week" so, any rumors on NASA Associate Administrator Ed Weiler's final words? Also I wondered if they planed to organize streamed video conference abut this?

Posted by: centsworth_II Jun 28 2011, 10:14 AM

QUOTE (KrisK @ Jun 28 2011, 06:07 AM) *
...any rumors on NASA Associate Administrator Ed Weiler's final words?

http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/06/nasa_mulls_targeting_decision.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+news%2Frss%2Fthe_great_beyond+%28The+Great+Beyond+-+Blog+Posts%29&utm_content=Twitter&WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureNews
The decision on where to land Curiosity, the super-sized roving science laboratory bound for Mars later this year, isn’t expected for at least another two weeks...

NASA headquarters was prepared to roll out an official announcement as early as today, had the council and Weiler come to an easy decision. But Weiler, who will make the final call, has instructed the council to study the information that was presented to them for the next two weeks.

Posted by: charborob Jul 6 2011, 05:32 PM

Looks like the choice now is between two sites: Gale and Eberswalde, according to http://www.space.com/12185-nasa-mars-rover-curiosity-landing-sites.html
See also http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1137

Posted by: peter59 Jul 6 2011, 08:11 PM

Landing site should be interesting for scientist and for normal US tax payers. Eberswalde is interesting for scientists, like 10 000 other sites on Mars, but not for ordinary person. In my opinion selection of Eberswalde crater will be a strategic mistake. Public interest will be short-lived and minimal. Without the support and interest of ordinary people further studies of Mars will not be possible. I hope this post does not initiate any discussion, I want only to express my disappointment and frustration. Mawrth was my favorite and it's hard for me to agree with the rejection of this wonderful place.

Posted by: djellison Jul 6 2011, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (peter59 @ Jul 6 2011, 01:11 PM) *
I hope this post does not initiate any discussion,


Then it's a bit stupid posting it in a discussion forum. Perhaps it would be better suited to a personal blog.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 6 2011, 08:42 PM

Every one of the four sites is a wonderful place. And all is not lost - the ones which are not chosen are still there for future missions.

Phil

Posted by: stevesliva Jul 6 2011, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 6 2011, 04:42 PM) *
And all is not lost - the ones which are not chosen are still there for future missions.


Until Phobos takes care of them.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 7 2011, 01:34 AM

... and creates a whole new set of amazing sites!

Phil

Posted by: gpurcell Jul 18 2011, 10:41 PM

Circle your calendars for Friday at 10 AM EDT--landing site will be announced then.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=34138

Posted by: Roby72 Jul 18 2011, 10:57 PM

I think the choice would be Gale crater, because one a of the members of the conference has take studies about it:

http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/sumner/Dawns_Research/MSL.html

just my 2 cents...

Robert

Posted by: nprev Jul 22 2011, 03:06 AM

Landing site to be declared 22 Jul 1400 EDT (1800 GMT)!!!!

http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl


Posted by: djellison Jul 22 2011, 04:13 AM

A precautionary admin note before the announcement tomorrow. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' site. There was no consensus for scientific preference over 5 landing site selection meetings that included hundreds of scientists and hundreds of presentations. Moreover, none fail any qualifier for landing safety.

Any cries of which ever site gets the nod being the 'wrong' choice or that some other site would have been better or that the choice is a mistake or any other such discussion will be dealt with swiftly and firmly.

If you want to bitch and moan - make your own blog or find another forum.

You have all been warned. Myself included.

QUOTE (nprev @ Jul 21 2011, 07:06 PM) *
Landing site to be declared 22 Jul 1400 EDT (1800 GMT)!!!!

http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl


It's 10 a.m. EDT (1400 UT) for the announcement. 7am our time.

Posted by: djellison Jul 22 2011, 02:06 PM

And its........


Gale

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1141


Posted by: akuo Jul 22 2011, 02:15 PM

And the slightly long winded introduction in the press conference is still going on...


Anaway, yay!

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 22 2011, 02:23 PM

Fantastic! I love it.

Phil

Posted by: MahFL Jul 22 2011, 02:51 PM

Is the plan to climb to the top of the mound ?
What is the hight of the crater wall from the landing elipse ?


Posted by: belleraphon1 Jul 22 2011, 03:06 PM

WOW..

What a fantastic trek lies ahead!

Luv it!

Craig

Posted by: djellison Jul 22 2011, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (MahFL @ Jul 22 2011, 06:51 AM) *
Is the plan to climb to the top of the mound ?
What is the hight of the crater wall from the landing elipse ?


Go read the Gale documents ( and there are many ) and the MSL Landing site website. ALL that info has been available for a very long time.

http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/msl/workshops/5th_workshop/program.html

Posted by: djellison Jul 22 2011, 03:10 PM

Anyone who wants a superb primer on Gale should read Jim and Ryan's paper about it

http://marsjournal.org/contents/2010/0004/



Posted by: belleraphon1 Jul 22 2011, 03:19 PM


Doug...

I was just going post the MSL Conference link but you beat me to it.

Thanks for the Mars Journal link... good weekend reading ahead for me!

Craig

Posted by: BrianL Jul 22 2011, 05:56 PM

From the perspective of someone whose primary interest is looking at the purty pictures, I am ecstatic with this choice. Between this, Oppy's pending arrival at Endeavour, the return of the Jets, and hardly any mosquitoes, I give this summer in the Peg an A++.

Posted by: peter59 Jul 22 2011, 06:18 PM

QUOTE (belleraphon1 @ Jul 22 2011, 04:19 PM) *
... good weekend reading ahead for me!

http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/msl2009/memoranda/sites_jul08/GaleCrater_Edgett_etal_Jun08.pdf
More watching, less reading. It may be useful as a supplement.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 22 2011, 06:47 PM

Tanya Harrison gave me really nice CTX mosaics covering the part of Gale in which Curiosity's mission will likely unfold, at 10 meters per pixel. Here they are http://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/misc/Gale_Ellipse_Merged_Scale.jpg and http://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/misc/Gale_Ellipse_Merged.jpg scale bars.

Posted by: Ant103 Jul 22 2011, 07:20 PM

That's just a very good news. This site is very beautiful. Sure we will have very nice landscapes there smile.gif.

What amazing times we are living smile.gif.

Posted by: Drkskywxlt Jul 22 2011, 07:33 PM

Fantastic picture, Emily (and Tanya!). It looks like there are some gully-like features on the crater rim (and secondary crater rim) on the left side of the image. Is that just mass wasting (i.e., dust) off the rim? Or have water gullies been claimed in the Gale Crater rim?

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 22 2011, 08:10 PM

FYI, I just split the MSL landing site discussion topic at the point where the downselection to Gale was made (or, I guess, leaked). Here's the http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=4084 with more general discussion of landing site selection process.

Posted by: algorimancer Jul 22 2011, 08:53 PM

From the Anderson & Bell 2010 paper linked earlier:

" The similarity between the observed pattern in the upper Gale Crater mound and the cross-beds exposed at White Sands leads us to speculate that the upper mound unit may have been formed by the lithification of a large aeolian dune field. "

To me, establishing that this is the case would lead to a redirection of the mission away from the mound and to the crater floor and rim -- plenty of neat things to explore there. Actually, the more I read the more I'd like to see the mound as pretty scenery in the distance while exploring things like elevated and sinuous channels and of course phyllosliicates.

"Scott et al. (1978), Greeley and Guest (1987), Scott and Chapman (1995), Malin and Edgett (2000) and Thomson et al. (2008) have suggested or discussed an aeolian origin
for the material of the Gale mound. We observe textures on the upper mound unit that could be large-scale (hundreds of meters) crossbeds (Figure 30), similar to
bedforms observed at White Sands National Monument on Earth (Figure 32). We interpret the observed textures as evidence that the upper mound has an aeolian origin. On Earth, crossbeds are often significantly smaller than those observed on the upper mound, so that the lack of crossbeds in HiRISE observations of the lower mound does not exclude an aeolian origin for these units. Although no crossbeds are observed in the lower mound units, the ridged morphology of portions of the mound-skirting unit and the dark-toned layered yardang unit may represent lithified aeolian bedforms. "

They go on to discuss the possibility of there having been a crater lake and many features resulting from lacustrine processes, which does not conflict with an aeolian origin of the mound, and mention that there were likely many process involved in creating the features present today.

Overall a neat paper.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 22 2011, 09:08 PM

Can any of you visualization geniuses simulate or describe what the view of the mound will look like from the middle of the landing ellipse? Will we see it at all? Will it look like what Opportunity is seeing now? Or will it loom higher?

Posted by: Paul Fjeld Jul 22 2011, 09:32 PM

On page 16 of http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/msl/workshops/5th_workshop/talks/Tuesday_AM/Edgett_Gale_May2011xy.pdf paper by K.S. Edgett of Malin Space Systems there is a very nice view of the crater mound from the MSL landing target. Don't know the field of view in the image, but it should stick up about 5 to 10 degrees from the horizon.

Posted by: SteveM Jul 22 2011, 10:02 PM

QUOTE (Paul Fjeld @ Jul 22 2011, 04:32 PM) *
On page 16 of http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/msl/workshops/5th_workshop/talks/Tuesday_AM/Edgett_Gale_May2011xy.pdf paper by K.S. Edgett of Malin Space Systems there is a very nice view of the crater mound from the MSL landing target. Don't know the field of view in the image, but it should stick up about 5 to 10 degrees from the horizon.
The figure says the observer is 15 km from the mound. At that distance, 5° corresponds to an elevation difference of 1300 meters, 10° corresponds to 2600 meters. How does that agree with the local DEM?

SteveM

Posted by: belleraphon1 Jul 22 2011, 10:42 PM

QUOTE (peter59 @ Jul 22 2011, 02:18 PM) *
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/msl2009/memoranda/sites_jul08/GaleCrater_Edgett_etal_Jun08.pdf
More watching, less reading. It may be useful as a supplement.


Thanks peter59

A visual feast!

Remember all the rover design studies after Viking. We all wanted to stroll over hills and past far horizons. I feel so fortunate to see that desire come to fruition.
Little Sojourner, then MER with all the wonders that Spirit and Opportunity have and continue to show us.

And the future with Curiosity looks high and bright.

Craig

Posted by: Ant103 Jul 22 2011, 10:43 PM

I used on of the CTX picture you've posted as an overlay in Google Mars to have more accurate details. So, I "landed" on the center of landing ellipse and aquire a panorama.

The result is this (in B&W) :



We can see very clearly the crater mound, and its rim. It will be certainly more "foggy" in real conditions. I will try to do a more photorealistic pan.

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 22 2011, 10:48 PM

Thanks, Paul and Damien, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Posted by: Paul Fjeld Jul 22 2011, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (Ant103 @ Jul 22 2011, 05:43 PM) *
I used on of the CTX picture you've posted as an overlay in Google Mars to have more accurate details. So, I "landed" on the center of landing ellipse and aquire a panorama.


Very cool. I eyeball the peak about 10 degrees high from your pan, so that should look pretty impressive.

Posted by: Explorer1 Jul 23 2011, 12:30 AM

It's gonna be beautiful, dust or no dust.
Will the mountain really be that bright?

Posted by: stewjack Jul 23 2011, 01:07 AM

Some context

Size:
Gusev ~ 166 km diameter
Gale ~ 155 km diameter

Vistas
I thought the view from the top of Husband hill was very impressive. I think we were close to 80-100 meters above the plains below. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: gpurcell Jul 23 2011, 03:38 AM

What I really love about this site is the vertical relief and huge stratigraphic column that the rover will traverse, particularly since the landing ellipse is in the deepest trough of the crater. As awesome as Oppy's mission has been our ability to peer deeply into the past there is limited.

Gale will be the grandest Mars mission of our lifetime. I am so excited about this.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 23 2011, 12:19 PM

Ant's panorama is fantastic... so I made a circular version of it. What a great place this is going to be.

Phil


Posted by: PDP8E Jul 23 2011, 07:01 PM

QUOTE
.... On page 16 of http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/msl/workshops/5th_workshop/talks/Tuesday_AM/Edgett_Gale_May2011xy.pdf paper by K.S. Edgett of Malin Space Systems ......


Did anyone notice that this paper's font is Comic Sans? (ouch!)

Posted by: ilbasso Jul 23 2011, 08:08 PM

Big plus for this site is that "Gale" is sooooo much easier to pronounce than "Mawrth".

Unless you're a cat.

Posted by: Pygmee Jul 24 2011, 02:28 AM

Hi everyone! I made an alternate version from those of Ant of what a panorama from Curiosity may look like. I'm not sure about the atmosphere opacity and therefore the viewing distance though...

I extracted data (overlay and DTM) from the HRSC camera onboard Mars Express. As you can see the picture resolution is average. I need to start working with CTX of HiRISE data though I'm not 100% sure my small laptop will handle it...

I am sorry about the watermarks but I use the Personal Learning Edition of Vue 9.5 Software. That could really look great without them! mad.gif



PS: You can download the full version (in PNG) http://www.huguesleroy.eu/mars/MSL/panorama1.png!

Posted by: climber Jul 24 2011, 08:35 AM

Very nice but look also very "Alien" because of PLEV.
BTW I wonder WHEN did you find time to do this since the Tour de France was in your city yesterday wheel.gif wink.gif

Posted by: Paul Fjeld Jul 24 2011, 07:07 PM

QUOTE (PDP8E @ Jul 23 2011, 02:01 PM) *
Did anyone notice that this paper's font is Comic Sans? (ouch!)

Yes. Very painful. (Font-geek!)

Posted by: ilbasso Jul 24 2011, 08:54 PM

Did anyone pick this up on page 7 of that presentation?

QUOTE
The mound, itself, was eroded by streams. A liquid, perhaps water, beer, or vodka, cut deep canyons into the mound....

Posted by: nprev Jul 24 2011, 09:00 PM

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

What, no tequila???

Posted by: Eutectic Jul 24 2011, 09:20 PM

QUOTE (ilbasso @ Jul 24 2011, 02:54 PM) *
Did anyone pick this up on page 7 of that presentation?



Yes. The cold temperatures would probably favor high levels of alcohol to keep water in a liquid phase.

Posted by: Syrinx Jul 24 2011, 09:53 PM

So maybe we can get a sample return mission funded after all.

Posted by: ugordan Jul 24 2011, 09:54 PM

One step at a time. Let's (successfully) land this baby first.

Posted by: volcanopele Jul 25 2011, 06:06 AM

QUOTE (Eutectic @ Jul 24 2011, 02:20 PM) *
Yes. The cold temperatures would probably favor high levels of alcohol to keep water in a liquid phase.

You sir or madam, win the internet. Best... username/response combination...evar!

Regarding Pygmee's pan, nice job, though I would think the effects of the opacity would be even worse, given what we see from Oppy at Endeavour.

Posted by: djellison Jul 25 2011, 06:17 AM

The water/beer/vodka theme is a repeating joke by Ken.

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 25 2011, 01:58 PM

And worth noting is that he was careful not to include whiskey which comes from the Gaelic term uisce beath meaning "water of life" and of course all the connotations that would imply.

Posted by: peter59 Jul 25 2011, 06:38 PM

HiRISE team has gathered together all images of MSL's landing site (84 images).
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/releases/msl-gale-crater.php

Posted by: Nirgal Jul 30 2011, 11:27 AM

Here is a simulated late-evening view from the dune field near the MSL landing area looking south-west along the western edge of the crater mound:



here for context the whole (yet unfinished) DTM mosaic, although at a preliminary resolution.



This is still a work in progress but I thought, I'd share some preliminary results with you smile.gif

More images and flyover-movies are in the making ...

Posted by: AndyG Jul 30 2011, 12:01 PM

I'm glad I was sitting down when I saw those, Nirgal - absolutely beautiful. Many thanks.

Andy

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 30 2011, 02:35 PM

Beautiful... We hardly even need to go there now!

Phil

Posted by: Oersted Jul 30 2011, 03:20 PM

Mindboggling! - And no vertical exaggeration?

Posted by: vjkane Jul 30 2011, 07:18 PM

The journal Science has just published an article that gives the back story on the ultimate MSL landing site selection process. Unfortunately, a subscription is required, so anyone without a university library account is unlikely to be able to read the piece. So, I'll give a quick summary of the key points.


Gale Crater stands out for its geomorphic and compositional diversity. Unfortunately, no one knows how that big mountain in Gale Crater with all its layers formed. Wind blown dust? Volcanic ash? Impact debris? Science titled its story, "How an alluring geological enigma won the Mars rover sweepstakes." That term, enigma, Science reports, comes up a lot in discussions about Gale.

So, why did an enigma win? Here's what Science reports:

Mawrth has the most ancient materials (big plus), but as with Gale, no one knows how they formed. Also, the geology of Mawrth has been changed by a nearby impact, and the fear was that scientists wouldn't be able to tease out its history. As an additional problem, this site lacks geological diversity, and driving there might be like driving across the surface of Meridiani Planum, the Opportunity rover's site. (Fortunately, Opportunity has had craters to explore, but there's not a whole of diversity in between.)

Holden Crater lacks a delta to indicate that it ever had a lake, and the MSL mission is all about exploring sites modified by water.

Eberswalde Crater has a delta and eventually became the runner up site. While the layers in the delta would make an enticing target for exploration, this site lacked the diversity of Gale Crater.

In the end, the diversity of Gale Crater plus its abundance of water-altered strata won the day. As a bonus, the smooth plain where the rover will land may be a delta.

Posted by: ustrax Aug 1 2011, 11:12 AM

Nirgal, just awesome work man, awesome. Counting the days to confirm how accurate your images are... smile.gif

Posted by: eoincampbell Aug 4 2011, 11:50 AM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jul 25 2011, 06:58 AM) *
...careful not to include whiskey...

laugh.gif they've been careful not to call it a wild rover too smile.gif

Posted by: PDP8E Aug 4 2011, 06:57 PM

nirgal,

Your 23rd century image skills are very impressive to the people of the 21st!

!!






Posted by: mhoward Aug 5 2011, 12:14 AM

Really great stuff, Nirgal. Currently on my desktop.

Posted by: machi Aug 5 2011, 12:36 AM

Nirgal, your images are really majestic! ohmy.gif

Posted by: Oersted Aug 12 2011, 10:25 AM

Anything similar to this near Gale?
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/pia14472.html

Posted by: Paolo Aug 12 2011, 11:24 AM

I don't think so. In any case it would be very difficult to drive a rover up such a slope.
I think that the most sensitive idea to explore these sites (and WE MUST explore them) is this: http://web.mit.edu/iang/www/pubs/artillery_05.pdf
or a tethered rover unreeled from the top of the cliff (I think JPL was working on something like that a decade or so ago)

Posted by: atomoid Aug 17 2011, 11:55 PM

QUOTE (Paolo @ Aug 12 2011, 03:24 AM) *
http://web.mit.edu/iang/www/pubs/artillery_05.pdf

Great article, though in a wryly peculiar way makes reference of "...Deep Space 2 mission, and the Russian Mars-96 mission are used to demonstrate the feasibility of <Artillery based explorers>." ..as considering these were *failed* missions, with DS2 having failed in its surface phase, just a pinch of a bad association for the fund raising PR aspect..
Nonetheless, thats really cool and id love to see as a sort of Scout mission to fill the void left by NetLanders, er um uh MetNet hopefully... ..and pondering the viability of dotting the martian landscape with similar objects via Mars aerobot plane or balloon platform.

Posted by: AdamH Sep 23 2011, 02:00 AM

Hey folks,

Here are a couple of Youtube videos of (what I believe) is the most likely traversal area for Curiosity. Disclaimer: I wrote the software that is being used for these.

First, one made by Ryan Anderson (of the Martian Chronicles blog) flying above a possible traverse route: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hmD5l_4YjM&feature=related

Next, one I made that is more of a meandering path with no particular goal in mind other than to enjoy the scenery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBzNJV6D1JM

I'm very much looking forward to having my mind blown when MSL starts sending back images.

Adam H.

Posted by: Oersted Sep 26 2011, 09:00 PM

QUOTE (AdamH @ Sep 23 2011, 04:00 AM) *
Next, one I made that is more of a meandering path with no particular goal in mind other than to enjoy the scenery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBzNJV6D1JM


Great work! Epic effort. Much enjoyed the flying around.

Is this video made with vertical exaggeration?

Posted by: AdamH Sep 26 2011, 09:10 PM

QUOTE (Oersted @ Sep 26 2011, 10:00 PM) *
Great work! Epic effort. Much enjoyed the flying around.

Is this video made with vertical exaggeration?


Thanks!

Nope, no exaggeration. My parallel goals are beauty and accuracy. Of course, I'm eager for folks to point out flaws. The software is still in beta, after all.

EDIT: I should clarify that the colors *are* indeed exaggerated. The HiRISE DTMs don't give me color information, so it's basically an educated guess mixed with artistic license. As a user of the software, you can alter the colors to suit your fancy.

Posted by: Oersted Sep 27 2011, 12:55 PM

OMG, I still have a hard time getting my head around the absolutely spectacular relief we will find ourselves in, after landing.

Posted by: AdamH Sep 27 2011, 01:34 PM

QUOTE (Oersted @ Sep 27 2011, 01:55 PM) *
OMG, I still have a hard time getting my head around the absolutely spectacular relief we will find ourselves in, after landing.


It's a whole new side of Mars. Well, maybe only a handful of degrees of longitude from the Columbia Hills, but still. Another short take on the scale of the features at Gale Crater:

http://www.youtube.com/mannedmissionsdotcom#p/a/u/0/xuXpfkVj3Nc

Screenshot:

Posted by: Oersted Sep 28 2011, 07:19 AM

Animated mystery man, woohoo!

Thanks, this really helps with understanding the scale. Keep 'em coming!

Posted by: AdamH Oct 4 2011, 01:42 PM

Here's a Gale Crater flyaround tool I'd appreciate some feedback on (note: this will start streaming data into your web browser -- about 100MB total if you view the whole thing): http://www.mannedmissions.com/GaleCrater/GaleCrater.html

Known issues:
* Loading icon strangeness under Windows.
* Sluggishness in Chrome under OS X. If you right-click and select 'Go Fullscreen', performance should return to normal.

Because of bandwidth costs, this isn't something I'll be able to keep up forever without charging, but I thought I'd try it out for a bit as an experiment.

Enjoy!

Adam

Posted by: Nirgal Oct 4 2011, 08:38 PM

Thanks for this really cool software that enables browsing Mars datasets online in 3D and in realtime - which is something we space enthusiasts have been waiting for a long time !

Keep up your great programming work smile.gif

Posted by: AdamH Dec 6 2011, 05:54 PM

I've removed the above GaleCrater flyaround; instead, you can explore the same terrain with the Last Martian Harvest game I made (it's free!): http://www.mannedmissions.com/LastMartianHarvest

I mention it because I've seen some folks trying to access the /GaleCrater page and getting 404 messages. PRODUCT PLUG WARNING: And don't forget you can see the full res version of that Gale Crater dataset with the software at http://www.mannedmissions.com/download.

Posted by: atomoid Jan 20 2012, 06:22 PM

QUOTE (AdamH @ Dec 6 2011, 09:54 AM) *
...explore the same terrain with the Last Martian Harvest game I made (it's free!): http://www.mannedmissions.com/LastMartianHarvest
...


mars.gif laugh.gif Man! thats incredible! this is exactly what ive been wanting to experience for decades! to actually 'drive' around on Mars ando get a 'feel' of the scope of the terrain!
It seems the pumpkin gets unmovably stuck on the hillside and the birds get stuck in a perma-hover over one spot and then the rover explodes when it tries to move the stuck pumpkin.. but of course thats half the fun!!

ive wanted to do something like this for the 8 year traverse for years to get that irreplaceable visceral feeling of boots on the ground!! wheel.gif i thought of making Battlefield maps or something but never got around to it, but this is so much better and accessible..

Now how cool would it be to release an Eagle-to-Endeavor map of this pumpkin game and we could all get our kicks careening off of the edge of Victoria !! (thinly veiled pleading)

Posted by: pospa Mar 29 2012, 12:28 PM

Gale crater central mound got a (informal) name - Mount Sharp

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1212

Posted by: Oersted Mar 29 2012, 10:37 PM

Thanks for the link, great read.

Posted by: belleraphon1 May 16 2012, 11:58 PM

Great series of talks from last months Abscicon regarding MSL at Gale - well worth it.

Starts 8:00 min in...

http://connect.arc.nasa.gov/p88c54avqep/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 18 2012, 11:41 PM

Recently the informal name "Mount Sharp" was suggested for the sedimentary mound in Gale crater. If you check this page out:

http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/HotTopics/index.php?/archives/447-Three-New-Names-Approved-for-Features-on-Mars.html

... you will see the name has changed, and the new form now made official. Sharp, or rather 'Robert Sharp" is now a degraded crater west of Gale. The mound is now called Aeolis Mons, and the smooth area around the landing site is Aeolis Palus. (click on those names to see maps).

Phil


Posted by: elakdawalla May 19 2012, 12:07 AM

Huh. The usage of "Mount Sharp" is already pretty ingrained among mission scientists. Do you think they'll make the switch? I did think it was weird that they press-released the informal name; I figured the IAU wouldn't take that too kindly.

It seems weird that they went with Aeolis Mons and Aeolis Palus. It's certainly not the only mound in Aeolis planum. But I haven't studied place-naming on Mars that closely.

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 19 2012, 12:24 AM

I think they will go with the official name, but maybe slip in another informal Sharp name somewhere along the way. Their right to use informal names is well established, but I expect they will adapt to the official name as well.

Phil


Posted by: nprev May 19 2012, 02:31 AM

Odd that USGS & IAU would decide to affix a formal name to these features at this time.

Also interesting is the fact that the USGS appears to state that 'Aeolis' is linked to a classical albedo feature, implying that Gale is observable from relatively small (I'd guess Lowell Observatory ca. early 1900s) Earth-based scopes?

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 19 2012, 02:58 AM

No, Aeolis is the region Gale is in. Gale itself is not visible, though it might have contributed to a classical canal.

Phil


Posted by: nprev May 19 2012, 06:06 AM

Got it; thanks, Phil!

Think Emily's right, though; might be a bit hard for the mission folks to shift gears at this late date. For example, bet that there are imaging sequences planned already named "SHARP_SOMETHING".

Posted by: djellison May 19 2012, 06:18 AM

Got to say - this is a very silly move by the IAU.

Posted by: Stu May 19 2012, 07:14 AM

Sounds like someone in the IAU has thrown his or her rattle out of the pram, narked at the way humble, low-born mission people christen places and features without the High Council's approval. I can imagine that even now, the IAU High Council are gathering in the Great IAU Hall, to discuss how to address the issue...



Well done IAU, another back of the net own goal.

Posted by: djellison May 19 2012, 08:06 AM

It's disrespectful to the team that's put in the years of work who are about to explore it and most of all, disrespectful to Bob Sharp.

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 19 2012, 10:51 AM

Sharp gets a crater nearby. By convention large Mars craters are named after people and mountains after the region they are in. This follows the convention. And there is no conflict between informal mission names and official ones. Indeed there would be nothing wrong with the MSL team continuing to use their own name informally, but I expect they will just port the name Sharp to another feature.

Phil

Posted by: mcaplinger May 19 2012, 11:09 PM

It's worth pointing out that unlike decisions like what defines a planet, nomenclature issues for planetary features are managed by a task group of planetary scientists: see http://planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov/Page/Approved

Still seems odd but as Phil points out naming a raised feature after a person just wasn't going to fit with the existing nomenclature convention.

Posted by: djellison May 19 2012, 11:11 PM

The IAU could have just done nothing. What they've done is make this now a challenging issue for the project, for media relations etc etc.

Posted by: mcaplinger May 19 2012, 11:15 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ May 19 2012, 03:11 PM) *
The IAU could have just done nothing.

True. Maybe there's an interesting insider politics story here. Certainly the IAU didn't feel compelled to name the Columbia Hills out from under the MER team.

One can complain: "Any objections to these names based on significant, substantive problems must be forwarded in writing or email to the IAU Division III President within three months from the time the name was placed on the web site."

Posted by: PDP8E May 19 2012, 11:37 PM

There are a seven named peaks in Gusev in the vicinity of Spirit.
from north to south:
Anderson Hill - named after Michael P. Anderson
Brown Hill - named after David M. Brown
Chawla Hill - named after Kalpana Chawla
Clark Hill - named after Laurel Clark
Husband Hill - named after Rick D. Husband
McCool Hill - named after William C. McCool
Ramon Hill - named after Ilan Ramon

The IAU should really take a deep breath and give some wiggle room to the people and organizations who are actually expending the resources and who will actually have a vehicle IN SITU! Its a roving laboratory ON MARS that actually plans to climb that one hill in Gale.

Posted by: djellison May 20 2012, 12:24 AM

QUOTE (PDP8E @ May 19 2012, 04:37 PM) *
There are a seven named peaks in Gusev in the vicinity of Spirit.


And they were named by the MER team.

Posted by: mcaplinger May 20 2012, 12:39 AM

QUOTE (PDP8E @ May 19 2012, 03:37 PM) *
There are a seven named peaks in Gusev in the vicinity of Spirit.

Those names don't appear in the IAU Gazetteer and AFAIK have no standing with the IAU.

Look, I'm not arguing with you guys, I agree that this was a confusing and seemingly ill-considered move. It would be interesting to get a statement from Brad Smith, the chair of the IAU Mars Task Group, about why they chose to do this now.

Posted by: PDP8E May 20 2012, 01:08 AM

... there are 10 named hills in Gusev...add to the list the Apollo 1 Hills: Grissom, White, Chafee

(Doug, are we dancing up to the no politics rule with this thread?)

Posted by: mcaplinger May 20 2012, 02:03 AM

QUOTE (PDP8E @ May 19 2012, 06:08 PM) *
... there are 10 named hills in Gusev...add to the list the Apollo 1 Hills: Grissom, White, Chafee

Of course the IAU recognizes crater names on the Moon for the Apollo 1 astronauts. (And it's Chaffee, BTW.)

Posted by: mhoward May 20 2012, 04:40 AM

For what it's worth, I think Aeolis Mons makes sense given the proximity to Aeolis Mensae and the sheer size of the mound. As was mentioned, it's more consistent with the naming conventions. Also, Robert Sharp is as big as Gale, and that ain't bad? But then, I've always wanted that crater to have a name.

 

Posted by: stevesliva May 20 2012, 07:00 AM

QUOTE (mcaplinger @ May 19 2012, 07:39 PM) *
I agree that this was a confusing and seemingly ill-considered move. It would be interesting to get a statement from Brad Smith, the chair of the IAU Mars Task Group, about why they chose to do this now.


They had a lot of vowels in their scrabble slate. Aeolis. All it's missing is 'u.'

Posted by: nprev May 20 2012, 07:23 AM

Thanks for the reference image, Mike.

Gotta admit, Prof. Sharp's crater is a beauty: not only large, but geologically fascinating. It's a worthy official tribute to him for sure, but I really think that the IAU should have left the Gale peak officially nameless at this (of all possible!) times.

Posted by: Stu May 20 2012, 09:51 AM

(sigh)

The timing of this was either simply unfortunate, or deliberate. If it was the former, then it kind of suggests that the IAU doesn't appreciate the importance of the MSL mission, and was unaware of the work already done planning the landing and the mission. If it's the latter, well, that's someone deliberately trying to cause trouble and show those pesky scientists who really is in charge of christening things Out There, because they could have done this long ago.

Either way, it's yet another thing that makes me really wish that The Powers That Be - in many aspects of life - would just leave well alone... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Phil Stooke May 20 2012, 01:33 PM

I don't think this type of speculation helps UMSF's reputation.

But if you want an alternative hypothesis I would propose that the official naming process was already under way and someone on the mission didn't bother to check before issuing a premature press release with an informal name. If anybody should comment it's the MSL team, not Brad Smith.

Now let's leave it until more information becomes available.

Phil


Posted by: Stu May 20 2012, 04:16 PM

Hmm, maybe that's a good idea; I was getting a bit X-Files there... laugh.gif

Shame tho... there are so many good rhymes for "Sharp"... cool.gif

Posted by: BrianL May 20 2012, 05:09 PM

QUOTE (Stu @ May 20 2012, 11:16 AM) *
Shame tho... there are so many good rhymes for "Sharp"... cool.gif


True, but I guess it's too late to carp about it now. smile.gif

Posted by: JRehling May 23 2012, 07:43 PM

On a linguistic note, Aeolis strikingly resembles the scientific term aoelian, of or made by wind, which is highly relevant to the formation hypotheses for the mound -- but this near-homonym is coincidental. Aeolis is a Greek location name from Asia Minor. That is to say, we can anticipate some linguistic gems which use both words in the same sentence. Maybe even an adjectival form aeolisian to sweeten the pot.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jun 12 2012, 06:41 PM

The recent telecon on the resized landing ellipse cleared up one point: The mission is still using their informal name "Mount Sharp" for the big mound. And that's fine - the mountain has a formal name which will be used in formal settings, and an informal mission-specific name.

I was actually hoping for a new map with one or two new placenames, but I am something of a naming nut anyway.

I am a bit sorry that the big alluvial fan in the original ellipse will probably be missed now. Still a chance they could get something on the southern edge of the fan, though.

Phil


Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 17 2012, 02:12 PM

This is a full resolution - but quite compressed - CTX mosaic of the ellipse area.

Phil



Posted by: akuo Jul 17 2012, 07:22 PM

Has there been any study of the traversability of those dunes in the southeast?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 17 2012, 07:27 PM

Yes, lots, including recent operations with a test rover in the desert. There are many paths through or around the dunes. Matt Golombek has published a detailed analysis of traversability.

Phil

Posted by: brellis Jul 17 2012, 07:39 PM

Dang I'm already eating so many pistachios in anticipation of nervous time at the PlanetFest thingy, my nickname for MSL is Pistachiosity!

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 17 2012, 07:43 PM

Leave a few for us!

Phil


Posted by: jmknapp Jul 17 2012, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 17 2012, 10:12 AM) *
This is a full resolution - but quite compressed - CTX mosaic of the ellipse area.

Phil




Is an image available at full CTX resolution but of the entire Gale Crater? How about HiRISE resolution of the ellipse or larger area? I'm thinking of something suitable for printing very large.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 17 2012, 08:22 PM

Not yet! (yes, the images exist, but no, not yet available mosaicked for download). But I expect so later from someone other than me. Those would be BIG files.

Phil

Posted by: Stu Jul 17 2012, 08:27 PM

Phil,

Hope you don't mind, I took your great pic and put the landing ellipse over it (taken from one of the pics shown at yesterday's press event).



Busy place...

(Doesn't line up perfectly, I know, some ghosting here n there but just meant as a rough guide...)

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 17 2012, 08:56 PM

That's what it's for!

There's a lot going on. As they said at the briefing, there should be some alluvial deposits derived from the crater walls in the middle of the ellipse.

I'm impatient for some more placenames now!

Phil


Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 17 2012, 09:17 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 17 2012, 12:56 PM) *
Is an image available at full CTX resolution but of the entire Gale Crater? How about HiRISE resolution of the ellipse or larger area? I'm thinking of something suitable for printing very large.


These are all the HiRISE images that I have analyzed for traversability.

If you go to the HiRISE server that lists all the DTMs http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/dtm/ you can download the DTMs and orthophotos for both "eyes". I stitched them together pretty easily just applying a horizontal and vertical offset. My 1mpp mosaic is about 30000x46250 pixels. Managing the mosaic at .25mpp proved to be a bit cumbersome.

ESP_011562_1755
ESP_012551_1750
ESP_018854_1755
ESP_019698_1750
ESP_023957_1755
ESP_024102_1755
ESP_024102_175N
ESP_024234_1755
PSP_001488_1750
PSP_009294_1750
PSP_009505_1755
PSP_009716_1755
PSP_010573_1755

There are some additional HiRISE mono images but I don't have a full list but I can find out if anyone is interested.

Paolo

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 17 2012, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (akuo @ Jul 17 2012, 12:22 PM) *
Has there been any study of the traversability of those dunes in the southeast?



I did. Those dunes are oriented mostly SW to NE and the slopes between crests are relatively benign. The tests we have done using Scarecrow both at Dumont Dunes and in the Mars Yard show that we should be able to navigate through them. While there are areas with steep slopes the vehicle should be able to drive off of them and reach a gradual slope. In short, there are no rover traps there.

Paolo

Posted by: kwan3217 Jul 17 2012, 10:15 PM

Several minutes of google did not reveal the coordinates and orientation of the new landing ellipse (or old one for that matter). Could someone please post those coordinates?

Posted by: Astro0 Jul 17 2012, 10:41 PM

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=Gale+Crater++landing+site+ellipse+longitude+and+latitude&oq=Gale+Crater++landing+site+ellipse+longitude+and+latitude&gs_l=serp.3...11217.20015.0.20452.33.28.4.0.0.1.437.7803.2-17j7j2.26.0...0.0...1c.SCFfn9nC1Pw&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=b4289e0ee4c80407&biw=1393&bih=771? huh.gif

Read the http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/pdfs/MSLLanding.pdf.
or http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/msl/topsites/gale_crater/ with pictures!

Posted by: Syrinx Jul 17 2012, 11:46 PM

Re: The pic Stu posted with the target ellipse.

Will MSL be coming in W-to-E, or E-to-W?

I'm assuming N is "up" in that pic.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 18 2012, 12:00 AM

North is always up in anything I do, unless I forgot...

Phil


Posted by: djellison Jul 18 2012, 12:14 AM

QUOTE (Syrinx @ Jul 17 2012, 03:46 PM) *
Will MSL be coming in W-to-E, or E-to-W?


From the west, travelling east.

The press kit includes that info
"While descending from that altitude to the surface, the spacecraft will also be traveling eastward relative to the Mars surface, covering a ground-track distance of about 390 miles (about 630 kilometers) between the atmospheric entry point and the touchdown target."

Astro0 just linked to it - I'll link to it again - http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/pdfs/MSLLanding.pdf

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 18 2012, 01:16 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 17 2012, 05:00 PM) *
North is always up in anything I do, unless I forgot...

Phil


Phil, your mosaic looks correct but the ellipse major axis that Stu added seems quite off. I think it is 87-89 deg from North, this one looks more like > 90 deg to me.
And yes, MSL will be flying West to East.

Paolo

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 18 2012, 02:42 AM

I should be more specific and say that north is close to 'up' in this image, but it's still in its raw image orientation and has not been aligned exactly with north. But at least it's not east up or south up...

Phil


Posted by: fredk Jul 18 2012, 04:00 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 18 2012, 01:16 AM) *
And yes, MSL will be flying West to East.

Less braking is needed when they come in from W to E (with the planet's rotation) compared to E to W (against the rotation). I don't know for sure if that's the reason, but I'd definitely wager a Mars bar on it!

Posted by: Stu Jul 18 2012, 07:37 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 18 2012, 02:16 AM) *
Phil, your mosaic looks correct but the ellipse major axis that Stu added seems quite off. I think it is 87-89 deg from North, this one looks more like > 90 deg to me.


Hmm. It shouldn't be. I just took Phil's pic, and a pic used in the MSL Media Briefing, superimposed the latter on the former by rotating a bit and then lining up craters and features etc. I thought they matched pretty well.

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 18 2012, 11:43 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 17 2012, 05:17 PM) *
These are all the HiRISE images that I have analyzed for traversability.


Thanks. One thing:

QUOTE
ESP_024102_175N


That's a typo I guess?

Also, I'm curious to know about the software you use for stitching these huge images together. Seems like Photoshop CS5 chokes on the largest ones, at least on my machine.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 18 2012, 12:32 PM

Stu - if you rotated mine to fit the NASA one (instead of the other way round) you would have north exactly at the top.

Phil


Posted by: Stu Jul 18 2012, 12:46 PM

Thanks Phil. Is it really that far out that I need to do that? Just going for a rough guide, after all...

(And got a tight writing deadline breathing down my neck, so not feeling a desperate need to, to be honest! laugh.gif )

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 18 2012, 12:50 PM

No, it's not far out. Don't bother - your ellipse is in the right place, it's just rotated a few degrees.

Phil


Posted by: Stu Jul 18 2012, 01:11 PM

Ohhhhhh......

Now I've *got* to do it, 'cos there's a gremlin...thing... nagging me in my ear, whispering "It's wrong... you know it's wrong... everyone knows it's wrong now... do it properly..."

rolleyes.gif

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 18 2012, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 18 2012, 04:43 AM) *
Thanks. One thing:



That's a typo I guess?


No, it is not a typo. That image has been split in two parts when generating the DEM. For whatever reason they could not generate a single set of orthophotos to compute range data. I decided to call the upper part with the suffix N for North. If you are downloading and analyzing the images you can safely remove this from your list.

QUOTE
Also, I'm curious to know about the software you use for stitching these huge images together. Seems like Photoshop CS5 chokes on the largest ones, at least on my machine.


I rolled my own. All code for traversability analysis (about 15,000 lines of code) has been developed in house. The stitching was tricky because some of the resulting mosaics had files larger than 4GB. I haven't tried, but maybe the netpbm tools, imagemagick or ImageJ can handle this task.

Paolo

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 18 2012, 05:06 PM

QUOTE (Stu @ Jul 18 2012, 12:37 AM) *
Hmm. It shouldn't be. I just took Phil's pic, and a pic used in the MSL Media Briefing, superimposed the latter on the former by rotating a bit and then lining up craters and features etc. I thought they matched pretty well.


I think I got confused by two things: a) the spectral response of the CTX seems to be a bit different from the HiRISE Red channel; b ) as Phil stated, in his mosaic the North is not exactly up; Sorry!

Paolo

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 19 2012, 09:32 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 18 2012, 12:54 PM) *
I rolled my own. All code for traversability analysis (about 15,000 lines of code) has been developed in house. The stitching was tricky because some of the resulting mosaics had files larger than 4GB. I haven't tried, but maybe the netpbm tools, imagemagick or ImageJ can handle this task.


Both ImageMagick on a Linux machine with 4GB and Photoshop on a Windows machine with 8GB fail to read the 0.25 mpp JP2 files. They can read the 1 mpp JP2 files though, which are typically like 14000x27000 pixels. Should be sufficient for hacking around. smile.gif But wow, never really grokked how huge those HiRISE images are.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 19 2012, 01:32 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 19 2012, 01:32 AM) *
Both ImageMagick on a Linux machine with 4GB and Photoshop on a Windows machine with 8GB fail to read the 0.25 mpp JP2 files. They can read the 1 mpp JP2 files though, which are typically like 14000x27000 pixels. Should be sufficient for hacking around. smile.gif But wow, never really grokked how huge those HiRISE images are.


Ah, for the Jpeg2000 images I use the http://www.kakadusoftware.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=22. I convert it to PGM then work from there. kdu_expand can expand at different resolutions, I believe you can crop as well. Yes the images are BIG. PM me if you need help with kdu_expand.

Paolo

Posted by: Astro0 Jul 20 2012, 10:15 AM

If for nothing else, Gale Crater is going to be a place for some fantastic vistas.
The terrain is quite amazing.

I thought I'd grab the HiRise images that http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=7020&view=findpost&p=185760 and put them together on a lower resolution image of a section of Gale Crater.
Unfortunately, there was one image I couldn't find to complete the mosaic (if anyone knows where to find it, let me know).
These are not the full size versions available from MRO and I've tried to match them up as best I can.
This just serves to whet the appetite for what's to come from Curiosity's cameras.


EDIT: IMAGE UPDATE: FOUND THE MISSING BITS!! There's a http://astro0.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/msl_hirise_gale1.jpg version on my http://astro0.wordpress.com/msl-gale-crater/ - note it's 58.4mb and 15,623 x 15,623 pixels.

Note above the 15km scale bar, there's an image of Victoria Crater to emphasis the scale of what we are about to explore.

Here's a crop from the full image:


Enjoy! smile.gif

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 20 2012, 11:45 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 19 2012, 09:32 AM) *
Ah, for the Jpeg2000 images I use the http://www.kakadusoftware.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=22. I convert it to PGM then work from there. kdu_expand can expand at different resolutions, I believe you can crop as well. Yes the images are BIG. PM me if you need help with kdu_expand.


Thanks for that tip--I see that Kakadu is fairly high-priced software but they provide "demo" packages for free with some subset of the capabilities & the Linux demo version at least has the kdu_expand command-line tool. Unfortunately for me they only provide 64-bit executables & my Linux box is 32-bit & so would have to upgrade before I can use it.

It would be fun to see a print of just one of the highest-resolution HiRISE strips, for example one of the 1 mpp files is about 7800x22000 pixels, so I assume the 0.25 mpp files would be 4x that, like 31000x88000. My printer is about 600 dpi I think, so that would be about a 4 foot by 12 foot poster! There's a nice free program called http://posterazor.sourceforge.net/ for printing out tiles of a large poster for trimming and pasting together, but as in this case it would be over 60 legal size sheets, I have to say it's not going to happen. smile.gif

Posted by: jamescanvin Jul 20 2012, 01:00 PM

Re: Handling HiRISE images. When I've worked these in the past (most notably with the Victoria to Endeavour ripple mapping) I used the http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/tools/pds_jp2.php binaries to convert subsections to PDS format then those subsections back to JP2, then ImageMagick or custom code for further conversion/processing.

Posted by: Mars Attack Jul 20 2012, 02:13 PM

Great pics Astro! Does anyone know just how many meters MSL is projected to be able to climb of the 5 km mountain. Matt Golombek was pretty clear that MSL will definetely not be able to climb up the "unknown material" just above the canyon that MSL will be traversing. He said it is way to steep.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 20 2012, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 20 2012, 03:45 AM) *
Thanks for that tip--I see that Kakadu is fairly high-priced software but they provide "demo" packages for free with some subset of the capabilities & the Linux demo version at least has the kdu_expand command-line tool. Unfortunately for me they only provide 64-bit executables & my Linux box is 32-bit & so would have to upgrade before I can use it.

It would be fun to see a print of just one of the highest-resolution HiRISE strips, for example one of the 1 mpp files is about 7800x22000 pixels, so I assume the 0.25 mpp files would be 4x that, like 31000x88000. My printer is about 600 dpi I think, so that would be about a 4 foot by 12 foot poster! There's a nice free program called http://posterazor.sourceforge.net/ for printing out tiles of a large poster for trimming and pasting together, but as in this case it would be over 60 legal size sheets, I have to say it's not going to happen. smile.gif


Have you tried http://www.kakadusoftware.com/executables/Linux-x86-32.zip

If this does not work let me know and I will try to find something else. Or drop them an email, they are quite responsive.

Paolo

QUOTE (Astro0 @ Jul 20 2012, 02:15 AM) *
....
Unfortunately, there was one image I couldn't find to complete the mosaic (if anyone knows where to find it, let me know).
....


Which one are you missing?

Paolo

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 20 2012, 04:11 PM

"Matt Golombek was pretty clear that MSL will definetely not be able to climb up the "unknown material" just above the canyon that MSL will be traversing. He said it is way to steep."

Too steep there, but we can reasonably expect a long extended mission. It should be possible to work around the lower levels of the mountain to the south and maybe find other ways up. The slopes look gentler as you go further south and east. There's also a much larger and more spectacular canyon to look at.

Phil

Posted by: vjkane Jul 20 2012, 10:26 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 20 2012, 08:11 AM) *
Too steep there, but we can reasonably expect a long extended mission. It should be possible to work around the lower levels of the mountain to the south and maybe find other ways up.

If I remember correctly, the new landing ellipse misses the possible delta on the crater floor. With that long a mission, maybe she could make a detour across the flats.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 20 2012, 11:01 PM

A very good point, and I think there are other fans that could be investigated as well.

Phil

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 20 2012, 11:06 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 20 2012, 04:01 PM) *
A very good point, and I think there are other fans that could be investigated as well.

Phil


I don't think they would drive Nort if we land South of the fan but if we want to examine fans I suggest we devote our attention to UMSF fans ;-)

Paolo

Posted by: vjkane Jul 20 2012, 11:12 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 20 2012, 03:06 PM) *
I don't think they would drive Nort if we land South of the fan


This would be years from now after she has gone as far up the canyon has possible. If she has to drive back down to go to another canyon as Phil suggests, perhaps then a diversion to the delta?

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 20 2012, 11:34 PM

We can play endless games about extended missions, and it's probably premature to do so, but here are possible routes from the primary mission target area, one going back to the plains to explore a different deposit, then to the mouth of the 'Grand Canyon' (as it was called in one MSL workshop presentation), the other skirting the mound to end up at the same place. Then either one could be extended up gentler slopes to the upper mound. Detailed DEM analysis required of course, but feasible routes can probably be found. The real point is, there is tons of potential at this site for great extended missions. (base is Astro0's mosaic)

Phil


Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 21 2012, 12:58 AM

QUOTE (vjkane @ Jul 20 2012, 04:12 PM) *
This would be years from now after she has gone as far up the canyon has possible. If she has to drive back down to go to another canyon as Phil suggests, perhaps then a diversion to the delta?


I understand, but I still believe they would want to go up and then around Mt.Sharp before considering going North. It would be akin to Opportunity driving back north, East of Victoria. But this is just a guess of course, nobody knows for sure.

Paolo

Posted by: Astro0 Jul 21 2012, 06:00 AM

QUOTE
Which one are you missing?
Paolo


The bit I'm missing I've marked below. Any thoughts?



The only image which you referenced that I couldn't find was ESP_024102_175N
It wasn't clear which one that might be on the HiRise site.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 21 2012, 06:22 AM

QUOTE (Astro0 @ Jul 20 2012, 11:00 PM) *
The bit I'm missing I've marked below. Any thoughts?


Looking at my mosaic, it seems to be http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_023957_1755 one.

QUOTE
...
The only image which you referenced that I couldn't find was ESP_024102_175N
It wasn't clear which one that might be on the HiRise site.


Sorry, as I was saying in an earlier post, ESP_024102_1755 was split in two by USGS when computing the DTM. You can safely discard ESP_024102_175N, it is a figment of my imagination ;-)

Paolo

Posted by: Astro0 Jul 21 2012, 10:45 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 21 2012, 04:22 PM) *
Looking at my mosaic, it seems to be http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_023957_1755 one.


Unfortunately, it's not that one. It's a strip to the left of that one.
Somewhere between ESP_018854_1755 and ESP_023957_1755.
I might have missed it in my search on HiRise. I'll keep looking. smile.gif

EDIT: After a bit of digging I found the images I needed. They don't overlap perfectly but they're really close.
I've posted the http://astro0.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/msl_hirise_gale1.jpg to my blog. It's 58.4mb and still 15,623 x 15,623 pixels.
I've also relinked the image in the http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=7020&view=findpost&p=185863.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 21 2012, 02:58 PM

QUOTE (Astro0 @ Jul 21 2012, 03:45 AM) *
Unfortunately, it's not that one. It's a strip to the left of that one.
Somewhere between ESP_018854_1755 and ESP_023957_1755.


That would be PSP_010573_1755 which unfortunetely the search utility does not find. I wrote a script to compute the link to the non-map projected and map projected JP2 images which is a pretty trivial thing to do and use wget to downlink them. If you use the direct link the images are still there. I'm not so sure whether it is OK for me to publish the script, but it is really trivial.

Paolo

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 23 2012, 12:35 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 20 2012, 10:46 AM) *
Have you tried http://www.kakadusoftware.com/executables/Linux-x86-32.zip


Thanks, that works on my Ubuntu 32-bit machine--at least, kdu_expand will convert a full-resolution JP2 file to pgm format, which ImageMagick seems to be able to handle better. The files are still kind of a bear to work with (100,000 pixels high!) but kdu_expand also can reduce the size by 2, 4, etc. & that seems to work well.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 23 2012, 04:04 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 22 2012, 05:35 PM) *
Thanks, that works on my Ubuntu 32-bit machine--at least, kdu_expand will convert a full-resolution JP2 file to pgm format, which ImageMagick seems to be able to handle better. The files are still kind of a bear to work with (100,000 pixels high!) but kdu_expand also can reduce the size by 2, 4, etc. & that seems to work well.


kdu_expand can also crop the image, so if you have trouble with the full-size you can try splitting it in sections. Can I ask you what are you trying to do? I might be able to help.

Paolo

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 23 2012, 09:53 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 23 2012, 12:04 AM) *
kdu_expand can also crop the image, so if you have trouble with the full-size you can try splitting it in sections. Can I ask you what are you trying to do? I might be able to help.

Paolo


Well, a while back in this thread I was simply asking if someone had already put together a mosaic of full-resolution HiRISE images of the landing site. Emily Lakdawalla posted a link to this mosaic in her blog, courtesy Tanya Harrison:

http://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/misc/Gale_Ellipse_Merged_Scale.jpg

That's about 7000x7000 pixels with a scale of about 10 meters per pixel. On a 600 dpi printer that would be good for about a 1-foot by 1-foot poster. So full HiRISE resolution (0.25 mpp) would be something like forty times larger, 40 feet by 40 feet! OK, that's insane. Practically, getting resolution sufficient to print out a detailed 4 foot by 4 foot poster (30000x30000 pixels in this case) is what I'm interested in.

Anyway, I wasn't really looking to do this myself, but nice to know about some of the tools that would be needed. The cropping feature of kdu_expand that you mention is interesting. Like maybe if one is interested in making a map of a certain region, the HiRISE images could be treated as kind of a database & relevant segments could be extracted from the various images and pieced together automatically.

Posted by: djellison Jul 23 2012, 01:16 PM

Tanya's mosaic is CTX, not HiRISE.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 23 2012, 02:53 PM

The mosaic that I work on is at 1mpp, 30000x46256 pixels and is definitely manageable. As I said I wrote teh code myself but it is not that difficult. I used the orthophotos that are part of the DTMs not the map-projected HiRISE images. The map-projected are projected to MOLA while the orthos are a cylindrical projection which are much easier to deal with. I basically just shifted in X and Y the orthos and spliced them together. When I need to take a look at closer than 1mpp I work on one HiRISE image at a time. Do you know how to write code? If so, I can give some suggestions on how to write the mosaicing software. Actually, I will try and see if the netpbm tools can handle this.

Paolo

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 23 2012, 04:17 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 23 2012, 10:53 AM) *
The mosaic that I work on is at 1mpp, 30000x46256 pixels and is definitely manageable.


Hmmm... any chance of sharing that? smile.gif

QUOTE
I used the orthophotos that are part of the DTMs not the map-projected HiRISE images. The map-projected are projected to MOLA while the orthos are a cylindrical projection which are much easier to deal with. I basically just shifted in X and Y the orthos and spliced them together. When I need to take a look at closer than 1mpp I work on one HiRISE image at a time. Do you know how to write code? If so, I can give some suggestions on how to write the mosaicing software. Actually, I will try and see if the netpbm tools can handle this.


I've written C code for ImageMagick, SPICE, mysql etc.--but seems like you mentioned something about 15,000 lines of code? Now that is some real work! I'll PM you with any further image processing questions as this thread is about Gale Crater. Thanks again.

QUOTE (djellison)
Tanya's mosaic is CTX, not HiRISE.


Didn't say it was, but it's the highest-resolution map of the whole landing ellipse that's publicly out there, no?

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 23 2012, 11:01 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 23 2012, 08:17 AM) *
Hmmm... any chance of sharing that? smile.gif


I'm not sure it is OK for me to share, I don;t want to get into trouble. I will see if I can use the netpbm tools to do the mosaicing and will let you know.

QUOTE
I've written C code for ImageMagick, SPICE, mysql etc.--but seems like you mentioned something about 15,000 lines of code? Now that is some real work! I'll PM you with any further image processing questions as this thread is about Gale Crater. Thanks again.


15K lines of code includes everything, from mosaicing to traversability analysis, to traverse duration. Th stitching code is about 100 lines of code but as I was saying I will look and see if netpbm will do. If it was up to me I would gladly share the code but I think my bosses would be quite upset. I hope you understand.

Paolo

Posted by: nprev Jul 23 2012, 11:27 PM

Paolo, please don't stress. If there's any doubt in your mind, just don't do it. wink.gif

UMSF is not, nor will it ever be, a place where the pros who grace us with their presence should ever have to feel pressured in any way to release info that they shouldn't. Period.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 24 2012, 01:29 AM

Joe (jmknapp) sent me a PM whose reply might be of interest to others so I asked him if he would mind if I replied publicly to his queries.

QUOTE
I was looking at the map-projected images, but I guess you're saying that they are harder to work with than cylindrical projections. I guess that means the seams don't line up quite right with a simple translation in X and Y?


It is my inderstanding that "map projected" HiRISE images are projected on MOLA. Trying to stitch them together requires a real GIS tool where you can define tie points do rubber-sheet warping. While this has been done, I did not want to introduce re-sampling artifacts in the DEM so I opted to mosaic the orthophotos directly. These images are cylindrical projections and therefore a simple X and Y shift is sufficient.

QUOTE
Ideally, I think it would be very cool to have a program that takes a range of latitude and longitude as inputs, along with the desired resolution (mpp), and which outputs a mosaicked map pieced together from all available HiRISE images covering the desired region. I saw the label (LBL) files which give the information about each image. If the label file data were in an sql database, one could do a query to identify all images covering a given area. The rectangular sections of interest from each HiRISE file could be extracted via system() calls to kdu_expand and then downsampled to the desired resolution if necessary. Then ImageMagick calls could be made to assemble the mosaic.


Unfortunately I have found that the georeferencing in either teh MAP and ORTHOs are not very accurate. If I compute the offsets from the georeferencing included in the image headers I end up with incorrect mosaics. They are useful to have a first order idea of where each image is, but not accurate enough for meter or submeter mosaicing.

QUOTE
....

1) The lighting conditions vary between HiRISE images, so some kind of normalization would be necessary. Just a thought, although it might be complicated, is to allow overlap between the tiles and then make the overlapped regions similar in brightness. Alternatively, I suppose one might come up with an algorithm based on the sun angle, etc.


I ended up keeping the different shadowing from each HiRISE ortho becasuse it allows me to see the seam for each one of them. There are algorithms to blend these seams, I'm going to let the fantastic people who generate the amazing panoramas to tell us how they do it.

QUOTE
2) The map-projected images have triangular regions with no data, so that would have to be accounted for.


The HiRISE images are taken while MRO is orbiting around the planet and therefore there is a slight angle between the HiRISE image and true North. In the Non Map Projected image North is roughly downward, if you rotate each image about 172 deg clockwise you have North side up but it leaves four triangles where there is no data, typically they paint that area black.

QUOTE
BTW, I coded something up that cropped a small rectangular region in latitude and longitude from whatever HiRISE images included it. The test region was from -4.40 to -4.42 in latitude and from 137.60 to 137.62 in longitude. That region matched these (grayscale, map-projected) images:

ESP_011417_1755_RED.QLOOK.JP2
ESP_011562_1755_RED.QLOOK.JP2
ESP_024102_1755_RED.QLOOK.JP2
ESP_024735_1755_RED.QLOOK.JP2
ESP_025368_1755_RED.QLOOK.JP2

I used the label files to identify the min and max lat and lon for each image and calculate the cropping parameters for kdu_expand. It worked fairly well except that there were very slight differences in the cropped region from each file, like maybe there was about 5% play (maybe 0.01 degree). That would mean that an automated mosaic would have seams & manual tweaking would be required. Maybe I'll try it with the cylindrical projected files to see if it's any better.


That is what I would expect. This is likely a combination of the projection on MOLA and the inaccuracies in the georeferencing.

Paolo

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 24 2012, 02:21 AM

While I can't share my mosaic, I developed an independent method to stitch the various orthos together.

Software:

1) Download and install the free http://www.kakadusoftware.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=22

2) Download and install the free http://netpbm.sourceforge.net/.

Dataset:

3) Download the 12 orthophotos from the HiRISE website, for example http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/dtm/dtm.php?ID=ESP_011417_1755

4) using the kdu_expand, part of the Kakadu Software, convert and resize each orthophoto image to PGM format at 1mpp, for example

CODE
kdu_expand -i ESP_011562_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.JP2 -reduce 2 -o ESP_011562_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM


5) Run the script but before you do make sure you have lot of disk space in /tmp, this script as it is written uses around 33GB but once you understand how it works you can optimize the passages and trim it down.

The result will be in GaleMosaic.pgm


How does the script work:

The script first creates a canvas using pgmmake, then it uses pnmpaste to paste each ortho to a copy of the canvas using offsets I determined empirically, finally it uses pamarith to merge the various images into groups and finally into one mosaic. I use the -max switch in pamarith to handle the black area surrounding the ortho. pgmmake, pnmpaste and pamarith are all part of the netpbm tools. It will take quite some time to run, this is mostly I/O bound, so the faster your disk, the faster it will run.

OK, here is my ugly script. Don't laugh, usually my code is more efficient and better written.

Paolo

CODE
# make a canvas
pgmmake 0 30016 46253 > /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm
# paste each image onto the canvas at the appropriate location
pnmpaste ESP_011562_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 22218 295 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/ESP_011562_1755.pgm
pnmpaste ESP_018854_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 10288 12027 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/ESP_018854_1755.pgm
pnmpaste ESP_023957_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 15536 9483 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/ESP_023957_1755.pgm
pnmpaste ESP_024234_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 1586 14795 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/ESP_024234_1755.pgm
pnmpaste PSP_001488_1750_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 4736 27509 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/PSP_001488_1750.pgm
pnmpaste PSP_009294_1750_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 11453 24893 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/PSP_009294_1750.pgm
pnmpaste PSP_009505_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 15144 0 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/PSP_009505_1755.pgm
pnmpaste PSP_009716_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 4546 8793 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/PSP_009716_1755.pgm
pnmpaste PSP_010573_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 10412 5850 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/PSP_010573_1755.pgm
pnmpaste ESP_024102_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 20972 11256 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/ESP_024102_1755.pgm
pnmpaste ESP_019698_1750_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 8970 27983 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/ESP_019698_1750.pgm
pnmpaste ESP_012551_1750_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 0 26236 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/ESP_012551_1750.pgm
# merge pairs
pamarith -max /tmp/ESP_011562_1755.pgm /tmp/ESP_018854_1755.pgm > /tmp/1
pamarith -max /tmp/ESP_023957_1755.pgm /tmp/ESP_024234_1755.pgm > /tmp/2
pamarith -max /tmp/PSP_001488_1750.pgm /tmp/PSP_009294_1750.pgm > /tmp/3
pamarith -max /tmp/PSP_009505_1755.pgm /tmp/PSP_009716_1755.pgm > /tmp/4
pamarith -max /tmp/PSP_010573_1755.pgm /tmp/ESP_024102_1755.pgm > /tmp/5
pamarith -max /tmp/ESP_019698_1750.pgm /tmp/ESP_012551_1750.pgm > /tmp/6
# merge quadruples
pamarith -max /tmp/1 /tmp/2 > /tmp/12
pamarith -max /tmp/3 /tmp/4 > /tmp/34
pamarith -max /tmp/5 /tmp/6 > /tmp/56
# merge octuples
pamarith -max /tmp/12 /tmp/34 > /tmp/1234
# merge one octuple and one quadruple into the final mosaic
pamarith -max /tmp/1234 /tmp/56 > GaleMosaic.pgm

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 24 2012, 04:05 AM

I have not looked at the HiRISE images from the mosaic point of view, but i did not have the impression they were projected onto MOLA - that would be more like an orthophoto with relief distortions taken out. But look at HiRISE of Victoria where each image has the central dune field offset by different amounts. I think they are just projected onto the standard Mars ellipsoid. And one other qualification - each one is probably projected in its own unique projection system (such as a sinusoidal projection centered on its own central longitude, or conformal conic on its own latitude) - and they won't automatically line up with each other because some projection parameters are different.

Phil


Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 24 2012, 04:18 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 23 2012, 08:05 PM) *
I have not looked at the HiRISE images from the mosaic point of view, but i did not have the impression they were projected onto MOLA - that would be more like an orthophoto with relief distortions taken out. But look at HiRISE of Victoria where each image has the central dune field offset by different amounts. I think they are just projected onto the standard Mars ellipsoid. And one other qualification - each one is probably projected in its own unique projection system (such as a sinusoidal projection centered on its own central longitude, or conformal conic on its own latitude) - and they won't automatically line up with each other because some projection parameters are different.

Phil


Phil, It is possible that my understanding is wrong about the map projection. I'm not really an expert in cartography, but as you say, stitching map projected images is quite more difficult than prthos.

Paolo

Posted by: djellison Jul 24 2012, 05:25 AM

The one HiRISE DTM I helped make ( with Pete Grindrod, of the Pathfinder site ) it's my understanding that the workflow involving SOCET SET reprojects orthphotos onto the HiRSE DTM itself. Biggest giveaway I think is the fine granularity of the distortion one can see over larger topographic excursions along the Orthophoto edges.

I seem to remember that the MPF DTM we made had only one MOLA point in its entire coverage (and that's not uncommon, especially away from the poles) That point ties it to the global frame, but the DTM itself is used to generate the Orthophoto

I think.


Posted by: Lightning Jul 24 2012, 10:50 AM

It seems that ISIS3 considers the MOLA DTM for map projection. Thanks to my heavy computer, ISIS3 collected automatically all the needed HiRise Gale Crater images for me, and map projected all of them. There is an option to make the borders fit and look smooth, but basically each tile is projected independantly from orbital Spice data and local DTM.

Finally, the map is about 600 Go.

I use Red Hat on a Pentium i7 and 42Go RAM computer.

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 24 2012, 12:02 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 23 2012, 09:21 PM) *
I developed an independent method to stitch the various orthos together.


Thank you! I'll give that a try (downloading the ortho JP2 files now). One thing: I can't find the mysterious ESP_024102_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO file. Searching for ESP_024102_1755 yields a hit in the regular area, but there's no DTM page for that one as far as I can see.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 24 2012, 01:09 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 24 2012, 04:02 AM) *
Thank you! I'll give that a try (downloading the ortho JP2 files now). One thing: I can't find the mysterious ESP_024102_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO file. Searching for ESP_024102_1755 yields a hit in the regular area, but there's no DTM page for that one as far as I can see.


That will be released soon. Let me know how it goes.

Paolo

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 24 2012, 01:14 PM

QUOTE (Lightning @ Jul 24 2012, 02:50 AM) *
It seems that ISIS3 considers the MOLA DTM for map projection. Thanks to my heavy computer, ISIS3 collected automatically all the needed HiRise Gale Crater images for me, and map projected all of them. There is an option to make the borders fit and look smooth, but basically each tile is projected independantly from orbital Spice data and local DTM.

Finally, the map is about 600 Go.

I use Red Hat on a Pentium i7 and 42Go RAM computer.


Here at JPL they use ARCGIS but I did not want to resample the data, that's why I rolled my own ;-) It is nice to have a beefy system. At home i have old stuff but at work I managed to get a Mac Pro, 12 cores, 64GB RAM, two 30" cinema displays, and I think I have a total of 14TB on line but the actual is much less since I keep five (!!) daily backups of my MSL data smile.gif

Paolo

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 24 2012, 06:20 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 24 2012, 08:09 AM) *
That will be released soon. Let me know how it goes.

Paolo


OK, it works, but it required a couple of minor tweaks. Here's a thumbnail of the resulting mosaic:



For the time being the script needs to be modified to account for the missing file, i.e., comment out this line:

#pnmpaste ESP_024102_1755_RED_A_01_ORTHO.PGM 20972 11256 /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm > /tmp/ESP_024102_1755.pgm

And change this line from:

pamarith -max /tmp/PSP_010573_1755.pgm /tmp/ESP_024102_1755.pgm > /tmp/5

to:

pamarith -max /tmp/PSP_010573_1755.pgm /tmp/PSP_010573_1755.pgm > /tmp/5

...so it just composites the same image on top of itself.

Also, when running it the first time I got a couple of error messages when it tried to create two of the intermediate files, ESP_011562_1755.pgm and
ESP_019698_1750.pgm. The error messages were, respectively:

pnmpaste: x + width is too large by 1 pixels
pnmpaste: y + height is too large by 1 pixels

In each case a zero-length file was created, which caused downstream processing to blow up. So I increased the size of the base image by one pixel in each direction, changing:

pgmmake 0 30017 46254 > /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm

to:

pgmmake 0 30018 46255 > /tmp/GaleMosaicBase.pgm

Then it went through and automagically created the mosaic! Thanks again.


Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 24 2012, 10:08 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 24 2012, 10:20 AM) *
...
Then it went through and automagically created the mosaic! Thanks again.


That is almost identical to the mosaic I have! Good job at understanding all of it, making the appropriate changes and fixing the script. Now, if *you* want to share it on UMSF, that one is "royalty" free. If not others can follow Joes's steps and roll their own.

Paolo

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 24 2012, 11:14 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 24 2012, 05:08 PM) *
Now, if *you* want to share it on UMSF, that one is "royalty" free.


Unfortunately, I'm tubes-challenged. Just checked photobucket--their maximum image size is 20 MB and the mosaic is 233 MB!

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 24 2012, 11:58 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 24 2012, 03:14 PM) *
Unfortunately, I'm tubes-challenged. Just checked photobucket--their maximum image size is 20 MB and the mosaic is 233 MB!

Joe


What happens to the file size if you use kdu_compress and generate a JP2 image? Mine compresses by about 4.6 times.

Paolo

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 25 2012, 01:18 AM

You could also crop out the central portion where all the action is going to be and post that.

Phil

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 25 2012, 02:32 AM

QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Jul 24 2012, 08:18 PM) *
You could also crop out the central portion where all the action is going to be and post that.


Maybe so, assuming they stick the landing. On closer inspection I think it needs a little more work, as the images don't quite line up properly. The way that Paolo uses netpbm above I think involves compositing pairs of images together using a "max" function where there's overlap so the bright areas get duplicated if they don't line up, which allows you to see the amount of error. For example, here's a crop of a small area of overlap:



BTW, the full mosaic in pbm format is like 1.4 GB, in jpg 240 MB.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 25 2012, 02:55 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 24 2012, 06:32 PM) *
Maybe so, assuming they stick the landing. On closer inspection I think it needs a little more work, as the images don't quite line up properly. The way that Paolo uses netpbm above I think involves compositing pairs of images together using a "max" function where there's overlap so the bright areas get duplicated if they don't line up, which allows you to see the amount of error. For example, here's a crop of a small area of overlap:



BTW, the full mosaic in pbm format is like 1.4 GB, in jpg 240 MB.


I realized that the orthos as published on the HiRiSE server are slightly different from the ones I have, this is why the canvas size was not large enough. What I would do it to work West to East and merge two images first, then add a third one and so on. To correct the offset you could pick easily recognizable features visible in the common part and measure an appropriate offset. It would be quite tedious, but doable. To ease the pain you can either crop the images or reduce the resolution even further.

Paolo

Posted by: Astro0 Jul 25 2012, 04:49 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 25 2012, 09:14 AM) *
Unfortunately, I'm tubes-challenged. Just checked photobucket--their maximum image size is 20 MB and the mosaic is 233 MB!
Joe


Hi Joe, great conversation with Paolo and impressive programming work from both of you on the mosaic.

If you're wanting to host the image somewhere, could I suggest getting yourself a free https://signup.wordpress.com/signup/ site where they give you 3Gb for nothing to store images on.
You're limit for file types, but if you only want to host a jpg of the mosaic, then this might be the easiest solution for this or anything else you want to post/host. smile.gif

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 25 2012, 03:37 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 24 2012, 09:55 PM) *
I realized that the orthos as published on the HiRiSE server are slightly different from the ones I have, this is why the canvas size was not large enough. What I would do it to work West to East and merge two images first, then add a third one and so on. To correct the offset you could pick easily recognizable features visible in the common part and measure an appropriate offset. It would be quite tedious, but doable. To ease the pain you can either crop the images or reduce the resolution even further.


OK, so that will take some time. Actually I just tried it with a couple of the orthos & it appears that there's some warpage across the images--i.e., I can get it to line up in one area but then it's off again at another point in the image. Roughly it seems like there's about 20 meters variation. So I guess that it won't be possible to get it perfect with just translations in X and Y. But 20 meters slop (about 1 arcsecond) just along the edges is pretty good for armchair work.

Given that there will be some unavoidable misregistration of the images I'm thinking that blending them with pamarith isn't the way to go, as it can lead to doubling of features across a wide overlap area--I was pretty sure I was getting astigmatism, with moire-like patterns in dune fields, etc.!

Maybe use the netpbm pamcomp command which lays one image on top of the other. That command allows you to specify an alpha mask so the black (empty) areas of the images can be filtered out.

Thanks to astro-nought for the wordpress suggestion! They don't seem to have any bandwidth limit.

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 25 2012, 08:00 PM

Per astro0's suggestion, I created a wordpress blog for the purpose of serving large images like the HiRISE mosaic:

Here's a post with links to a tight crop of the landing area (13000x10000 pixels 40 MB) along with the large view of the mosaic (30017×46254 pixels 240 MB):

http://mslfan.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/hirise-mosaic-of-the-msl-landing-area/

'Course, at this rate, the 3GB of free storage won't last long...



Posted by: Oersted Jul 25 2012, 10:15 PM

That was fast! - Beautiful site you threw together there, congrats, and thanks for allowing us to download your work (per the best traditions of UMSF).

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 26 2012, 02:10 AM

Thanks Joe for doing this. These days have been quite hectic but I will try to give some advice on things to try on the HiRISE images. Is anyone trying to localize the rover after landing? I'm not sure what images will be released to the public but you never know...

Paolo

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 26 2012, 04:36 AM

If we get even a navcam-resolution panorama early on, I'll be looking for it.

Phil


Posted by: djellison Jul 26 2012, 04:47 AM

Don't expect a panorama until late on sol 2 ( 48hrs after landing ) as the Mast isn't even deployed till then.

Infact, to be honest, I'd expect a HiRISE image of hardware on the surface before we get a panorama to nail it down.

A MARDI frame or two on Sol 1 might narrow things down a bit though.

Posted by: Phil Stooke Jul 26 2012, 05:15 AM

I agree, Doug, a HiRISE image is much more likely to find the site, as with Phoenix.

Phil

Posted by: djellison Jul 26 2012, 05:46 AM

The fun will be finding ALL the hardware smile.gif

Probably to the East
6 Entry Ballast Mass impacts (which could be a meter or so across, each. 25kg of tungsten. They accelerate forward from the entry capsule when jettisoned, and it's doing 400m/sec+ at the time)
Heatshield

Could be anywhere
Backshell and Parachute

To the W / NW / N
Descent Stage

And, of course
Rover
(without the shadow of an upright mast)

The hardware to the east may end up on the far side of the thin dune field that crosses the east end of the ellipse

Posted by: climber Jul 26 2012, 07:20 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jul 26 2012, 07:46 AM) *
Parachute

Yep floating around blown by the wind...didn't YOU show this in the MSL video? biggrin.gif

Posted by: James Sorenson Jul 26 2012, 12:03 PM

I made this for my Facebook Cover, figured I'd share.

smile.gif

Posted by: SpaceListener Jul 26 2012, 04:13 PM

As the MSL will be landing to Mars from Northwest and the final position of heatshield would be in the direct line of the landing trajectory. I hope it would fall close to the rim of sand of the peak (Sharp?). The others hardware, the parachute and backshield, they are tied?, they are subjected to the force and direction of wind and its falling trayectory would be closer to MSL due to the parachute's breaking air resistance. Hence I hope its final position would be farther than the heatshield. Let us bet!

Posted by: machi Jul 26 2012, 08:35 PM

Thanks jmknapp for that massive mosaic!

This is another (global) view of the Gale crater, but in much lower resolution (~100 m/pix).
It's anaglyph made from HRSC digital terrain model. Original DTM is available http://europlanet.dlr.de/node/index.php?id=380 (courtesy of DLR (Gwinner, K)).

 

Posted by: DFinfrock Jul 26 2012, 10:36 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 25 2012, 08:00 PM) *
Per astro0's suggestion, I created a wordpress blog for the purpose of serving large images like the HiRISE mosaic:

Here's a post with links to a tight crop of the landing area


Wow! What an incredible landscape. I knew about Mt. Sharp, and how impressive it would look. But I hadn't realized how much of a dropoff there was at the "Grand Canyon". And the dunes, rills, ridges, fins, etc., are going to make for amazing landscapes for the duration of this mission.

Thanks so much for the image jmknapp.

David

Posted by: brellis Jul 27 2012, 12:11 AM

omg! knapp, that is simply wonderful. At UMSF, I expect awesome renderings, but wow! thank you

Posted by: stewjack Jul 27 2012, 12:28 AM

Random find:
Anaglyph of a Canyon (25 MB)
http://hirise-pds.lpl.arizona.edu/PDS/EXTRAS/ANAGLYPH/PSP/ORB_009100_009199/PSP_009149_1750_PSP_009294_1750/PSP_009149_1750_PSP_009294_1750_RED.browse.png

This Hirise 3D Graphic is of a http://hirise-pds.lpl.arizona.edu/PDS/EXTRAS/ANAGLYPH/PSP/ORB_009100_009199/PSP_009149_1750_PSP_009294_1750/PSP_009149_1750_PSP_009294_1750_RED.browse.png much nearer to MSL's landing ellipse than the Grand Canyon. According to one http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA15293 (PIA15293) that contains a blue line showing one possible route the rover could take onto the lower flank of Mount Sharp, the route is somewhat parallel to the canyon.

The 3D is spectacular, but I guess it could be exaggerated.


Posted by: jmknapp Jul 27 2012, 01:24 AM

QUOTE (DFinfrock @ Jul 26 2012, 05:36 PM) *
Wow! What an incredible landscape. I knew about Mt. Sharp, and how impressive it would look. But I hadn't realized how much of a dropoff there was at the "Grand Canyon". And the dunes, rills, ridges, fins, etc., are going to make for amazing landscapes for the duration of this mission.

Thanks so much for the image jmknapp.


No problem & of course thanks to Paolo. It will be fun to track the progress of the rover through what has to be like a maze of pitfalls or slopes too steep to climb. Makes me think--is there a map that somehow shows the degree of slope at various points? Googling "slope map" shows that there is such a thing in GIS land, for example http://www.personal.psu.edu/cab38/Terrain/AutoCarto.html Seems like that would be of interest for the Mars landscape as well.

Another cartography question: what is the coordinate system used by the mission planners? Latitude and longitude? Or maybe a rectangular grid (like the UTM grid system used on Earth)?


Posted by: djellison Jul 27 2012, 01:58 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 25 2012, 01:00 PM) *
Here's a post with links to a tight crop of the landing area (13000x10000 pixels 40 MB) along with the large view of the mosaic (30017×46254 pixels 240 MB):


A heads up for people - the large JPG is a bit too large for most programs, it will freak them out and they'll report it as corrupted. OpenEV was able to do it, but Photoshop, ImageJ, IrfanView - all refused.


Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 27 2012, 02:08 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jul 26 2012, 05:58 PM) *
A heads up for people - the large JPG is a bit too large for most programs, it will freak them out and they'll report it as corrupted. OpenEV was able to do it, but Photoshop, ImageJ, IrfanView - all refused.


Preview on Mac OSX amazingly enough has no trouble at all. I guess the other choke because they use signed shorts for the image dimensions?

Paolo

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 27 2012, 02:09 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 26 2012, 05:24 PM) *
No problem & of course thanks to Paolo. It will be fun to track the progress of the rover through what has to be like a maze of pitfalls or slopes too steep to climb. Makes me think--is there a map that somehow shows the degree of slope at various points? Googling "slope map" shows that there is such a thing in GIS land, for example http://www.personal.psu.edu/cab38/Terrain/AutoCarto.html Seems like that would be of interest for the Mars landscape as well.

Another cartography question: what is the coordinate system used by the mission planners? Latitude and longitude? Or maybe a rectangular grid (like the UTM grid system used on Earth)?


I'm not aware of any slope maps being available but if you download the DTMs I can show you how to compute the slopes.

edit: I believe I did describe how to compute a slope map in some thread but I can't find it! I tried using the search button but failed. I feel so clumsy. If anyone has suggestions on how I can find my posting I would be grateful.

Paolo

Posted by: brellis Jul 27 2012, 02:40 AM

I have several PPC Macs I got for free from the kind folks at Edwards AFB when they upgraded to Intel. It loads just fine on my old goats!

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 27 2012, 03:18 AM

QUOTE (brellis @ Jul 26 2012, 06:40 PM) *
I have several PPC Macs I got for free from the kind folks at Edwards AFB when they upgraded to Intel. It loads just fine on my old goats!


Well, if you have really old PPC with a G3 processor, that's what is running on MSL. For these large images the key is the disk space and speed.

Paolo

Posted by: pgrindrod Jul 27 2012, 08:39 AM

I had so much fun making an Opportunity GIS that I thought I'd get tooled up beforehand for MSL. Unfortunately I haven't had much time to play with it yet, but I have managed to download all the fantastic HiRISE PDS DTMs and come up with elevation and slope maps.

My usual disclaimer of it not being georeferenced, normalised, just downloaded, mosaicked and used as is.

First up, elevation, with the revised ellipse (my best guess on placement) and a nominal traverse from the Anderson and Bell http://marsjournal.org/contents/2010/0004/.



And derived from that a slope map covering the same area.


They're obviously greatly reduced in size here, but should come in handy for playing with over the next few weeks! smile.gif
Pete

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 27 2012, 11:38 AM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jul 26 2012, 09:58 PM) *
A heads up for people - the large JPG is a bit too large for most programs, it will freak them out and they'll report it as corrupted. OpenEV was able to do it, but Photoshop, ImageJ, IrfanView - all refused.


Photoshop has an advertised limit of 30,000 height or width--maybe that's common. GIMP under Linux or http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html will show the file.

I made a 30000x30000 crop & added it to the http://mslfan.com/2012/07/25/hirise-mosaic-of-the-msl-landing-area/--it can be viewed with Photoshop.

Astro0 also reported that the image causes a virus/trojan detection on his system, related to an exploit that uses malformed images to create an integer overflow. In this case that's a false positive as it's just a humongous image, not attempting to exploit an integer overflow.

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 27 2012, 11:46 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 26 2012, 10:09 PM) *
I'm not aware of any slope maps being available but if you download the DTMs I can show you how to compute the slopes.

edit: I believe I did describe how to compute a slope map in some thread but I can't find it! I tried using the search button but failed. I feel so clumsy. If anyone has suggestions on how I can find my posting I would be grateful.

Paolo


I found this:

QUOTE
MahFL, the map I have is 5.2 GB and can't release it, of course. What tools do you have? I can definitely show you how to compute it. There are various techniques that can be used, the way *I* decided to compute it is to compute the slope as the gradient of the elevation map. I compute the slope in the East-West direction: slopeEW = atan(deltaZ/deltaEW), that is, I compute the difference in Z between the pixel where the rover is and the neighboring pixels in the East and West direction divided by the horizontal distance between the pixel where the rover is the neighboring pixel under consideration. I repeat the process in the North-South direction: slopeNS = atan(deltaZ/deltaNS), using a similar computation as above. I finally compute the slope magnitude as the square root of the sum of the squares slope=sqrt(slopeEW^2 + slopeNS^2) and the slope direction as the arctangent between the two components. The DTMs posted on the HiRISE web site are in PDS format I think. If you can't read those, you can sort of cheat and get the number of rows and columns from the header (it is in ASCII), compute the array size as rows*cols*4 (it is a 4 bytes floating point array), skip the header whose size in bytes is filesize - rows*cols*4 and then start reading the array as floating point numbers in row major order. I can already see many people already using emacs and gcc coding their way up to Mt Sharp ;-)

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 27 2012, 01:31 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 27 2012, 03:46 AM) *
I found this:


That is the post I was looking for. Thanks Joe. Let me know if that description is sufficient.

Paolo

Posted by: fredk Jul 27 2012, 02:47 PM

QUOTE (pgrindrod @ Jul 27 2012, 09:39 AM) *
They're obviously greatly reduced in size here, but should come in handy for playing with over the next few weeks! smile.gif

Thanks for these, Pete! Any chance you could add elevation and slope scales to those? Higher resolution would be cool too...

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 27 2012, 07:19 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 27 2012, 09:31 AM) *
That is the post I was looking for. Thanks Joe. Let me know if that description is sufficient.

Paolo


Very good--info on the IMG format is surprisingly hard to come by.

With your slope map, do you encode both slope and aspect, e.g., color to indicate aspect and saturation for slope? Also, you say you just go over some pixels in each of the cardinal directions to get an average slope--is that optimal or for convenience? I.e., why not a square or roughly circular area? As for how far to go, I guess there's a tradeoff between resolution and too much noise & maybe computer time.

Posted by: JohnVV Jul 27 2012, 08:09 PM

QUOTE
Here's a post with links to a tight crop of the landing area (13000x10000 pixels 40 MB) along with the large view of the mosaic (30017×46254 pixels 240 MB):
-------------------------------
A heads up for people - the large JPG is a bit too large for most programs, it will freak them out and they'll report it as corrupted. OpenEV was able to do it, but Photoshop, ImageJ, IrfanView - all refused.

that is a small image
30k x 46k

Nip2 has NO problem showing my 131070 x 65535 RGB 12 Gig Venus map


Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 27 2012, 08:56 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 27 2012, 11:19 AM) *
Very good--info on the IMG format is surprisingly hard to come by.

With your slope map, do you encode both slope and aspect, e.g., color to indicate aspect and saturation for slope? Also, you say you just go over some pixels in each of the cardinal directions to get an average slope--is that optimal or for convenience? I.e., why not a square or roughly circular area? As for how far to go, I guess there's a tradeoff between resolution and too much noise & maybe computer time.


What I use is a 3x3 pixel kernel, that way I have the slopes on a rover scale. Suppose I name the DTM "pixels" d11, d12, d13, d21, d22, d23, d31, d32, d33 (in row major order), I compute

CODE
SlopeEW = ( slope(d12,d11) + slope(d13,d12) + slope(d22,d21) + slope(d23,d22) + slope(d32,d31) + slope(d33,d32) ) / 6;


Similarly I compute the slopeNS. This has teh advantage of giving lower noise on the slopes and still have enough detail in the DTM.

I do not encode in a single map both magnitude and direction. I have two separate maps where I color code the slope and overlay with some transparency the underlying ortho. Since DTM and ortho are co-registered it is a simple overlay, you don't have to do any manual coregistration. So once you have found your optimal offsets for the ortho mosaic, you can apply the same offsets to the slope overlay. I suggest you compute the slopes one DTM at a time and mosaic teh results otherwise if you try to mosaic the DTM first you will have trouble at the seams between DTMs. There will be some elevation differences that would introduce artifacts.

Paolo

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Jul 27 2012, 09:15 PM

QUOTE (pgrindrod @ Jul 27 2012, 01:39 AM) *
They're obviously greatly reduced in size here,

So Pete, old friend, is there anywhere you can drop them where we might access your full size works?

Posted by: Reed Jul 28 2012, 02:08 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 27 2012, 03:38 AM) *
I made a 30000x30000 crop & added it to the http://mslfan.com/2012/07/25/hirise-mosaic-of-the-msl-landing-area/--it can be viewed with Photoshop.

Thanks for making these.

An alternative to monster files would be to use a web based zoomable images. I tried setting up the 40 meg image using panojs (http://www.dimin.net/software/panojs/), and it was very easy. It's free, and all javascript, so it doesn't require anything special on the server or browser. OTOH, you have to split the image into tiles, which is much less convenient for people who want to do more than view the image.

If it's OK with you, I'd be happy to host a tiled versions on amazon s3. Of course, I can't sport completely unlimited bandwidth, so if it got too out of hand, I'd have to pull the plug.

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 28 2012, 02:32 AM

QUOTE (Reed @ Jul 27 2012, 10:08 PM) *
If it's OK with you, I'd be happy to host a tiled versions on amazon s3. Of course, I can't sport completely unlimited bandwidth, so if it got too out of hand, I'd have to pull the plug.


Sounds interesting--not familiar with that software. Go for it!

Posted by: Reed Jul 28 2012, 07:47 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 27 2012, 07:32 PM) *
Go for it!

Here's the smaller 13000×10000 crop: removed, see full image link below

I'll try to do the full image later. The python script included with panojs3 was not happy with the large image, even after I added 8gb of swap unsure.gif and imgcnv had dependency issues on the AMI I was using.

Posted by: Stu Jul 29 2012, 12:37 AM

If it hasn't hit you yet just how unbelievable and majestic a place Gale Crater is, then go here, and just wander around the crater. This is the best 3D pic I've found of it so far, and honestly, it sent shivers down my spine when I spent some time touring around it...

http://www.geoinf.fu-berlin.de/eng/projects/mars/preleases/mosaic/008/fullres/008-20111017-mosaic-6-an-01-GaleCrater.jpg

(Apologies if it's been posted before, but even if it has it's worth reminding people, especially as there'll be a lot of newcomers here soon. Welcome, by the way!)

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 29 2012, 12:53 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 27 2012, 11:19 AM) *
Very good--info on the IMG format is surprisingly hard to come by.

With your slope map, do you encode both slope and aspect, e.g., color to indicate aspect and saturation for slope? Also, you say you just go over some pixels in each of the cardinal directions to get an average slope--is that optimal or for convenience? I.e., why not a square or roughly circular area? As for how far to go, I guess there's a tradeoff between resolution and too much noise & maybe computer time.


I forgot to say that http://rsbweb.nih.gov/ij/download.html can read the DTMs in PDS format, I use the "import" facility, specify the rows and columns, say that it is a 32 bit little endian float, and offset (computed by the difference between the file size and the product of rows*cols*4). You will notice that the "unknown" data points have really large negative numbers. The PDS header includes the valid data range as well.

Paolo

Posted by: Reed Jul 29 2012, 01:27 AM

I've put up the full size zoomlable image here http://rmmars.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/large/

For full effect, I suggest clicking the fullscreen button in the upper right, and the 1:1 on the left.

I cropped it very slightly to make an integer number of tiles. Also removed the "small" one, since it's all contained in the large.

eta:
Added a simple scale bar to the viewer, so you can measure those craters and yardangs wink.gif

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 29 2012, 01:55 AM

QUOTE (Stu @ Jul 28 2012, 04:37 PM) *
If it hasn't hit you yet just how unbelievable and majestic a place Gale Crater is, then go here, and just wander around the crater. This is the best 3D pic I've found of it so far, and honestly, it sent shivers down my spine when I spent some time touring around it...

http://www.geoinf.fu-berlin.de/eng/projects/mars/preleases/mosaic/008/fullres/008-20111017-mosaic-6-an-01-GaleCrater.jpg

(Apologies if it's been posted before, but even if it has it's worth reminding people, especially as there'll be a lot of newcomers here soon. Welcome, by the way!)


Stu, am I lost (again) or in this image North is to the right?

Paolo

Posted by: Stu Jul 29 2012, 07:44 AM

Yep, north to the right Paolo. My basic guide for Gale orientation is 'bright stuff at the top = north, dark stuff at the bottom = south' smile.gif

Posted by: walfy Jul 29 2012, 08:18 AM

QUOTE (Stu @ Jul 28 2012, 04:37 PM) *
If it hasn't hit you yet just how unbelievable and majestic a place Gale Crater is, then go here, and just wander around the crater. This is the best 3D pic I've found of it so far, and honestly, it sent shivers down my spine when I spent some time touring around it...

http://www.geoinf.fu-berlin.de/eng/projects/mars/preleases/mosaic/008/fullres/008-20111017-mosaic-6-an-01-GaleCrater.jpg


Thanks for that link! What a superb image in 3D! That got me searching for some HiRISE anaglyphs. Maybe you, or others, have "discovered" these already, excuse me if they've been posted already. I did a search for "Gale" at arizona.edu and many ultra-high resolution 3D pictures http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/results.php?keyword=gale&order=release_date&submit=Search. I'm currently downloading a jpg2000 file of nearly 600MB detailing in 3D that inverted riverbed prime target area in Gale Crater. My bandwidth is slow so I'll have to sleep on it while it downloads. But the pages in the above link provide lower resolution png files of each HiRISE image that are still pretty fantastic. Here's a crop of the inverted riverbed prime target in all its 3D glory:



That terrain looks pretty rough!



Posted by: Oersted Jul 29 2012, 03:48 PM

I seem to recall reading somewhere that all the terrain Curiosity could possibly encounter would be sufficiently benign for her to scale it with no great difficulty. What should I believe?

Posted by: walfy Jul 29 2012, 06:41 PM

QUOTE (Oersted @ Jul 29 2012, 07:48 AM) *
I seem to recall reading somewhere that all the terrain Curiosity could possibly encounter would be sufficiently benign for her to scale it with no great difficulty. What should I believe?


That can't be the case. I've downloaded 3 of the gargantuan HiRISE jp2000 anaglyph files and the level of 3D detail is staggering, absolutely mind blowing. There are many obvious cliffs! Maybe around the landing site itself the terrain is relatively safe for driving. I hope to download one of the files that have detail of that terrain later, if I can find one.

My 6-year-old Power Mac can barely open these jp2 files in Photoshop, had to wait 20 minutes. And when zooming in at 100% you have to move around the red channel sometimes to make it easy on the eyes, and every move of that channel takes minutes of rendering time! A workaround is to select just a portion of the image you want to explore at 100%, copy it, create a new blank Photoshop file (File > New... the dimensions of the new file should match what you just copied), then paste it in that new smaller file. One more step is to flatten the image before moving the red channel around.

The inverted riverbed HiRISE image is 22725 x 66369 pixels! I've barely scratched the surface, so to speak, wish had more time to explore. Here's a quick example of a serious cliff near that inverted riverbed, and even though the elevation is exaggerated (not sure by how much), it's certainly too steep for Curie to drive on!


Posted by: nprev Jul 29 2012, 07:04 PM

That's not really the point, though.

Curiosity will be capable of reaching a wide variety of geologically diverse locales within the Gale region which will satisfy the mission objectives...and then some, I'm sure.

It's a remarkable machine. It is not a magic omnipotent superbot.

Posted by: MarsEngineer Jul 29 2012, 09:31 PM

Hi all,

A few years back I tried getting an engineering change request approved to add a magic omnipotent superbot app to MSL (you know ... a real simple one), but it was declined due to insufficient robotherapy time available in the testbed. biggrin.gif

Someday perhaps? (well perhaps not magic nor omnipotent). Actually I am certain we could make the rovers more flexible, quicker and smarter. But not yet. As you already know, this beastie already has enough hobbies to keep its wee brain busy.

Like many, I have a lot of suggestions for future improvements. (but alas, all of these machines will be to a large extent narcoleptic.) Also it will be a while before we can land on or near some of those cliffs in Gale. I think we know how but I suspect it will take a lot of work. So far it is easier and safer to land in a flat spot and spend long months driving to the cliff faces.

Driving up those surfaces will be hard but I am confident that Paolo's trail maps will guide us safely to some great locations.

Those are some amazing views!! (What have we gotten ourselves into Paolo? rolleyes.gif )

Although I am amazed at the renderings, I am really really looking forward to peering around from inside Gale.

One more week.

-Rob Manning
MSL Chief Engineer

Opinions and jest expressed are those of the author and do not represent the views of NASA, JPL nor Caltech.

Posted by: nprev Jul 29 2012, 10:07 PM

Rob, if anyone could design an MOS app it would be you. smile.gif Think you guys have one hell of a spacecraft that's almost there...looking forward to next Sunday night, and the weeks & years to follow!

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 30 2012, 01:06 AM

QUOTE (Reed @ Jul 28 2012, 09:27 PM) *
I've put up the full size zoomlable image here http://rmmars.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/large/


What a great way to offer up big images online... You mentioned maybe taking it down if the bandwidth demands are too great. I suppose Amazon web services charges a fee for that?

Posted by: elakdawalla Jul 30 2012, 02:05 AM

It is really fantastic to see this thread revving up for the arrival! wheel.gif wheel.gif wheel.gif

I can use The Planetary Society's S3 hosting for any large products deemed likely to be useful over the long term. I probably will not be able to follow this thread closely enough to determine what those products are. So if something comes along that seems (1) finished, or at least not likely to change for a while, and (2) something we'll want to be referring to again several months from now, drop me an email and I'll upload it and place a link to it in our nascent "resources" website section.

Posted by: Reed Jul 30 2012, 03:02 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 29 2012, 06:06 PM) *
What a great way to offer up big images online

It's a lot more friendly than a giant image IMO. I'd be happy to share what I learned making these, should probably go in a different thread though.
QUOTE
I suppose Amazon web services charges a fee for that?

Yes, AWS is http://aws.amazon.com/s3/pricing/. It's reasonably priced, but they will happily serve up terabytes and bill you for it. I think the zoomable image won't be a big deal, most people aren't going explore the entire image at 1:1 res (possible exception: members of this forum laugh.gif) Just to be clear, that browsable image doesn't need to be on AWS, I put it there because it's an easy way to serve large amounts of static content. Assuming you can bulk upload the ~7000 tile images, you could host it on your wordpress account.

Getting back to the image, I was thinking it would be nice to fill in the gaps using the 10m/px ctx image Emily posted earlier. It seems like this could be simple (if there isn't distortion somewhere that makes alignment impossible), but I couldn't find a netpbm command that says "if pixel on image A is 0, use pixel from image B". You can make alpha masks I guess, but they would be big...

Another thing I've been thinking about is adding additional information on top of the image. Since the view is all done in javascript, it would be pretty easy to make placemarks and have them link to other stuff.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 30 2012, 05:30 AM

QUOTE (MarsEngineer @ Jul 29 2012, 01:31 PM) *
...
Driving up those surfaces will be hard but I am confident that Paolo's trail maps will guide us safely to some great locations.

Those are some amazing views!! (What have we gotten ourselves into Paolo? rolleyes.gif )
...


I think it will be an incredible adventure and no matter what obstacles Mars is going to throw at us we will find a way. After all the engineers I met on the MSL team remind me of the origin of the word "engineer".

168 hours.

Paolo

Posted by: walfy Jul 30 2012, 08:08 AM

An anaglyph, just right-of-center of landing ellipse (my best estimation). It's a part of http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_024023_1755. This crop is about 4.5 km across.




Posted by: walfy Jul 30 2012, 08:16 AM

This area is just south of the landing site and just NE of prime target area, also from http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_024023_1755. The image is 4.774 km wide. I think the sand dunes in upper-left side were within the landing ellipse before they shrunk it down in size recently.


Posted by: pgrindrod Jul 30 2012, 11:38 AM

QUOTE (fredk @ Jul 27 2012, 03:47 PM) *
Thanks for these, Pete! Any chance you could add elevation and slope scales to those? Higher resolution would be cool too...


Done and done! I've stuck some slightly larger, and some much larger versions over on my http://www.petergrindrod.net/archives/817. They're just higher resolution versions of exported maps, rather than the full-resolution data.

I've also made a 2 GB .tiff file of the mosaicked DEMs, which people might be able to use themselves. Perhaps I can take up Emily's kind offer?! In the meantime, if anyone is super keen to get their hands on it then send me a message and I'll see what I can do.

Pete

Posted by: jmknapp Jul 30 2012, 03:12 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 27 2012, 04:56 PM) *
I do not encode in a single map both magnitude and direction. I have two separate maps where I color code the slope and overlay with some transparency the underlying ortho. Since DTM and ortho are co-registered it is a simple overlay, you don't have to do any manual coregistration. So once you have found your optimal offsets for the ortho mosaic, you can apply the same offsets to the slope overlay. I suggest you compute the slopes one DTM at a time and mosaic teh results otherwise if you try to mosaic the DTM first you will have trouble at the seams between DTMs. There will be some elevation differences that would introduce artifacts.


Getting there... I tried one of the Gale DTMs--here's a section at 1 mpp resolution:



Here's that section color-coded for slope as you say (ROYGBIV, from flat to vertical):



And a composite of the two:






Posted by: fredk Jul 30 2012, 04:33 PM

QUOTE (pgrindrod @ Jul 30 2012, 12:38 PM) *
Done and done! I've stuck some slightly larger, and some much larger versions over on my http://www.petergrindrod.net/archives/817.

Thanks again, Pete. Just one little thing - the elevation map has the slope scale.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 30 2012, 05:44 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 30 2012, 07:12 AM) *
Getting there... I tried one of the Gale DTMs--here's a section at 1 mpp resolution:
...


Joe, I see you are having fun! This is great work. The colormap I use is reversed relative to yours, blue s low slope and red is high slope as this attracts more attention to the bad slopes but it does not really matter.

Now, for those of you that have a slope map, try to isolate the areas above 25 degrees. That should be pretty easy. Next try to find areas that are surrounded by slopes higher than 25 degrees. That is a tad more difficult. Now if you join these regions you will have an idea of where MSL is likely not to drive.
This does not take into account the different types of terrain of course but it is a start.

Paolo

Posted by: Pando Jul 30 2012, 07:51 PM

Some perspective images of the cliffs at Gale Crater. This place is unreal.




 

Posted by: Pando Jul 30 2012, 07:54 PM

More cliffs...



 

Posted by: Stu Jul 30 2012, 09:31 PM

In the red corner... Gale Crater...

In the blue corner... Endeavour Crater...

How do they compare? Let's have a look...



Kinda brings it home, doesn't it? blink.gif

Posted by: Syrinx Jul 30 2012, 10:46 PM

Question for you guys that make the anaglyph images. What are the appropriate glasses to buy? I have a set of glasses from the Pathfinder days, approximately red-blue, but they don't work with the pictures I see here on UMSF.

Glasses will be an absolute necessity for MSL.

I hate to ask this question! But I looked in the FAQ and it's not there, and Google didn't help. I found some threads on UMSF with some links to Amazon, but most of the links now go to general Amazon search pages with a dozen different kinds of glasses.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=3d+glasses+clip&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=7904281059&ref=pd_sl_2htsk4yeuh_b
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=3D+glasses&x=0&y=0

This page has remained direct:

http://www.amazon.com/Over-size-Clip-on-Anaglyph-3D-Glasses/dp/B002X3MBV8/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1320515982&sr=8-12

Thanks.

Posted by: Roby72 Jul 30 2012, 10:53 PM

Is this the deepest Mars landing ever ?

Viking 1 landing in Chryse Planitia was "at reference altitude of −2.69 km relative to a reference ellipsoid with an equatorial radius of 3397.2 km" acc. to Wikipedia.
Viking 2 found at about -4.23 km.
For Mars Pathfinder I could not find any altitude.
Mars3 ?
Phoenix was at -4.1km in the northern plains.(Google)
MER-A/B I found to be at -1.91/-1.44 km respectively at their ellipse centers.
In the "MRO looks down" video I saw for MSL an altitude of -4.912km below the reference ellipsoid - is that correct ?

6 days to go !
Robert

Posted by: walfy Jul 31 2012, 03:42 AM

QUOTE (Syrinx @ Jul 30 2012, 02:46 PM) *
Question for you guys that make the anaglyph images. What are the appropriate glasses to buy? I have a set of glasses from the Pathfinder days, approximately red-blue, but they don't work with the pictures I see here on UMSF.


Any of those red/blue or red/cyan glasses should work. It's strange that your older pair doesn't work. Make sure the red lens is on the left, blue/cyan on the right.

Posted by: walfy Jul 31 2012, 04:43 AM

Hovering over part of the Grand Canyon of Gale Crater, 3.42 km across:


Posted by: walfy Jul 31 2012, 07:13 AM

Assuming the rover is 2.9 meters long (http://www.cnes.fr/web/CNES-en/5719-msl-09-at-a-glance.php) and this HiRISE image resolution is 25 cm per pixel (according to the HiRISE page), then the rover should be 11.6 pixels in length! So I Photoshopped it in to this very small part of a much larger HiRISE image. The image is a crop from the original, no reduction nor increase in size were made. Every pixel is the original, representing 25 cm across the surface of Mars. It's in the "inverted river" prime target area. My best understanding now is that with the good fortune of an extended mission in years to come, we might be driving up here!


Posted by: pgrindrod Jul 31 2012, 09:25 AM

QUOTE (fredk @ Jul 30 2012, 05:33 PM) *
Thanks again, Pete. Just one little thing - the elevation map has the slope scale.

Doh! Thanks fredk, changed accordingly.

Posted by: belleraphon1 Jul 31 2012, 11:57 AM


Gobsmacked!!!!!

I just cannot think of another word right now.

Gale is magnificent.

So is this forum.

All you folks who participate on this forum, from the poets, the image mages, the rover drivers, the enginners, the scientists.
Magnificent talents all.

Thanks for what you do!

Craig


Posted by: jmknapp Jul 31 2012, 12:00 PM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 30 2012, 12:44 PM) *
Now, for those of you that have a slope map, try to isolate the areas above 25 degrees. That should be pretty easy. Next try to find areas that are surrounded by slopes higher than 25 degrees. That is a tad more difficult. Now if you join these regions you will have an idea of where MSL is likely not to drive.
This does not take into account the different types of terrain of course but it is a start.


Interesting... I read somewhere that the rover was tested on some crazy steep slopes but that left the question as to what the practical limit is for normal drives. So 25° then. So after masking out the >25° slopes themselves and then the regions that may be flattish but surrounded by >25° moats, I guess that would leave the trail map that MarsEngineer alluded to.

Hat's off to you, with the daily responsibility of not putting a multi-billion dollar ride into a ditch or into quicksand & still making the whole enterprise pay off scientifically.

Posted by: SpaceListener Jul 31 2012, 04:19 PM

After seeing the terrain pictures, I realized that this place will be by far the most interesting place to visit Mars! Lots of geology variety (different slopes, different kind of land, close to a high mountain, through a canon) and finally, I am not comfortable to landing place since it is not so plain surface as the MER's landing sites. I still cannot figure out about how the geology has shaped the landing place so bumpy. The time is already approaching fast! Thanks to all who has put nice pictures to let others to see.

Posted by: RoverDriver Jul 31 2012, 04:20 PM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 31 2012, 04:00 AM) *
Interesting... I read somewhere that the rover was tested on some crazy steep slopes but that left the question as to what the practical limit is for normal drives. So 25° then. So after masking out the >25° slopes themselves and then the regions that may be flattish but surrounded by >25° moats, I guess that would leave the trail map that MarsEngineer alluded to.

Hat's off to you, with the daily responsibility of not putting a multi-billion dollar ride into a ditch or into quicksand & still making the whole enterprise pay off scientifically.


I personally drove Scarecrow on very steep terrain and there are definitely some differences on how it behaves relative to MER. I'm not sure whether the terrain Scarecrow was tested in was all relevant o Gale but it is a start. I'm not sure how much of MER driving will also help. My hunch (not shared by everyone on the driver's team) is that it will be a combination of Gusev and Duck Bay. I will devour the first HAZCAMs and NAVCAMs as you all probably will. My first shift will be on Aug 8!

For people that want to explore Gale, I asked ElkGroveDan to http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=7375&view=findpost&p=186324 a tarball with a clickable map that links to the appropriate HiRISE pages.

Paolo

Posted by: walfy Aug 1 2012, 12:39 AM

...don't tell my boss why I'm falling behind my work! Here is an anaglyph of my estimation of where the center of the landing ellipse is (based on what I could glean from the interwebs). If anyone with special knowledge could confirm a better estimate of the location, I'd be happy to rework this image.





Posted by: walfy Aug 1 2012, 12:42 AM

Here's my approximate center of the landing ellipse in more detail (see my previous post for wider perspective).


Posted by: RoverDriver Aug 1 2012, 12:49 AM

QUOTE (walfy @ Jul 31 2012, 04:42 PM) *
Here's my approximate center of the landing ellipse in more detail (see my previous post for wider perspective).
...


The location of the center is not critical, of course, but as you can see the ellipse is scattered with mesas. Not very tall mesas like on Mt.Sharp but tall enough to be a hazard. Hopefully we will not have to climb down one of them and meander around all of them!

Paolo

Posted by: walfy Aug 1 2012, 12:51 AM

Here's the final of this series, with the rover Photoshopped in. It's the closest you can get with the HiRISE images. Again, if someone in the know has a more pinpointed location of the center of the landing ellipse, I'd be happy to rework these images (after I catch up on work! but this is too much fun). this location is just my estimate based on eyeballing several images I could find online. One in particular looked official, and had an x marking the spot. But who knows how accurate it was.


Posted by: walfy Aug 1 2012, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 31 2012, 04:49 PM) *
The location of the center is not critical, of course, but as you can see the ellipse is scattered with mesas. Not very tall mesas like on Mt.Sharp but tall enough to be a hazard. Hopefully we will not have to climb down one of them and meander around all of them!

Paolo


Yeah, you're right, not so important. But I hope I'm somewhat close!

Posted by: jmknapp Aug 1 2012, 01:04 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 30 2012, 12:44 PM) *
Now, for those of you that have a slope map, try to isolate the areas above 25 degrees. That should be pretty easy. Next try to find areas that are surrounded by slopes higher than 25 degrees. That is a tad more difficult. Now if you join these regions you will have an idea of where MSL is likely not to drive.


One thing occurs to me--if you have a map with all slopes >25° marked in one color and all those <25° another color, wouldn't a simple flood fill starting from the landing spot paint all the places where the rover could possibly drive and not exceed 25°?

Posted by: jmknapp Aug 1 2012, 01:05 AM

QUOTE
ellipse is scattered with mesas


Is it possible that MSL could land somewhere in the ellipse and be surrounded by steep slopes?

Posted by: djellison Aug 1 2012, 01:19 AM

Those are called rover-traps and they were taken into account during the landing site selection process thru Paolo's amazing work smile.gif

There are some, but not many - they represent a tiny tiny fraction of the ellipse.

Posted by: Hungry4info Aug 1 2012, 01:19 AM

The terrain around the ellipse didn't look that forbidding.
Besides, it can just laser-drill it's way out, right?

Posted by: RoverDriver Aug 1 2012, 02:06 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 31 2012, 05:04 PM) *
One thing occurs to me--if you have a map with all slopes >25° marked in one color and all those <25° another color, wouldn't a simple flood fill starting from the landing spot paint all the places where the rover could possibly drive and not exceed 25°?


Not exactly. 25 deg is what we believe is the maximum traversable slope on any terrain, but we also believe that the rover will not be able to traverse slopes of more than 12.5 deg on sand. So the area that is > 25 deg is for sure non traversable but the rest might or might not be traversable, it depends on teh terrain configuration and what types of maneuvers you need/want to do. In order to have a better understanding of where teh rover can and cannot drive in my traversability analysis I did include some rudimentary evaluation of the terrain classifying the texture in the HiRISE images. We'll see how this is true to the terrain at Gale.

Paolo

Posted by: RoverDriver Aug 1 2012, 02:08 AM

QUOTE (jmknapp @ Jul 31 2012, 05:05 PM) *
Is it possible that MSL could land somewhere in the ellipse and be surrounded by steep slopes?


Yep, there are some rover traps which were known at the time of selecting the landing site. I got to the point where I can automatically locate mesas, bowls (craters) and ledges. It was fun.

Paolo

Posted by: ElkGroveDan Aug 1 2012, 04:59 AM

QUOTE (RoverDriver @ Jul 31 2012, 07:08 PM) *
Yep, there are some rover traps which were known at the time of selecting the landing site.

Like this?

 

Posted by: RoverDriver Aug 1 2012, 05:49 AM

QUOTE (ElkGroveDan @ Jul 31 2012, 08:59 PM) *
Like this?


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Yes, that's what I call a mesa rover-trap. This type of rover trap would be really devastating. We would be literally sitting on top of layered bedrock but we would not be able to get to it (the arm, much like the IDD, has limited reach below ground level).

Paolo

Posted by: brellis Aug 1 2012, 11:38 AM

I wondered how far up Aeolis Mons MSL would possibly ascend, so I Googled it and found this 2011 http://www.space.com/13723-nasa-rover-curiosity-climb-mountain-gale-crater.html as a reference to the wiki article on MSL.

QUOTE
NASA's next Mars rover is a rolling chemistry and geology laboratory, but it may prove to be an expert mountain climber as well.

The car-size Curiosity rover is due to launch Saturday (Nov. 26) on a mission to assess whether the Red Planet is, or ever was, capable of supporting microbial life. In the course of its duties, Curiosity could end up at the summit of a 3-mile-high (5-kilometer) mountain near its landing site, provided it keeps chugging for long enough, researchers said.

"We think the slopes are gentle enough that if you took an appropriately circuitous route, you could make it to the top of the mound," John Grotzinger of Caltech, project scientist for Curiosity's $2.5 billion Mars Science Laboratory (MSL) mission, told reporters yesterday (Nov. 22). "But that's way into the future."

Posted by: jmknapp Aug 1 2012, 01:23 PM

QUOTE (djellison @ Jul 31 2012, 08:19 PM) *
Those are called rover-traps and they were taken into account during the landing site selection process thru Paolo's amazing work smile.gif

There are some, but not many - they represent a tiny tiny fraction of the ellipse.


Finished my slope map. I suppose some of these spots would be among the traps:



Here's a thumbnail of the slope map:

http://mslfan.com/2012/08/01/terrain-at-the-msl-landing-site/

Color-coding is as follows:



The full-res file (31000x47000 at 1 mpp) can be downloaded from my blog:

http://mslfan.com/2012/08/01/terrain-at-the-msl-landing-site/

 

Posted by: fredk Aug 1 2012, 01:58 PM

This is fantastic, Joe. Any chance you could provide an intermediate resolution version, say 2 to 4 mpp, for those who don't want to commit to the full 213 MB?

Posted by: jmknapp Aug 1 2012, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (fredk @ Aug 1 2012, 08:58 AM) *
This is fantastic, Joe. Any chance you could provide an intermediate resolution version, say 2 to 4 mpp, for those who don't want to commit to the full 213 MB?


OK--just shrunk the image to 4 mpp (17 MB) & added a link at the end of the http://mslfan.com/2012/08/01/terrain-at-the-msl-landing-site/.

Not sure if that's entirely kosher, depending on how ImageMagick averages pixels, but it's probably pretty close. I guess the right way to do it would be to downsample the original DTMs by averaging and recreate the mosaic from scratch--right, but painful!

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