IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Mars 3 (Various Topics Merged)
tedstryk
post Dec 29 2004, 10:36 PM
Post #1


Interplanetary Dumpster Diver
****

Group: Admin
Posts: 4404
Joined: 17-February 04
From: Powell, TN
Member No.: 33



On my website sometime back, I added a page on the image fragment sent back by the Mars-3 Lander. I released serveral versions, including the best quality processing using othodox techniques I would use on other images plus colorization here:
http://pages.preferred.com/%7Etedstryk/fragmentc.jpg
However, I released another image, which I called a "What if" image. This image can be seen here http://pages.preferred.com/%7Etedstryk/m3s5b.jpg It was produced via extreme processing of the original data to make a Mars-like scene, but I made it clear on my website it was only a speculative image. I strongly doubt if the raw data even shows Mars at all - it could be all noise. But since this mode of processing looked strangely Viking-like, I figured I would put it on the web. I was warned by several, who said that while fun, some kooks might take it seriously. My response was that I really don't care what kooks think. Then I noticed this web page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_2
They used the overprocessed image. I feel like it is being presented as a true photograph. This is of concern.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Geert
post Jun 6 2008, 07:56 AM
Post #2


Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 236
Joined: 5-June 08
From: Udon Thani
Member No.: 4185



Various sources all seem to confirm that the camera's of the Mars 3 lander scanned vertical lines, moving from left to right, identical to the camera's on Luna 9/13 and on the later Venera landers. So, as has been mentioned here before, the image should be rotated by 90 degrees and the 'horizon' does not make sense unless the craft is lying (almost) on its side.

There is one more interesting description in 'The Difficult Road to Mars' of V.G. Perminov, who describes the receipt of the Mars 3 lander signal on earth: "The transmission of panoramic images of the Martian surface recorded on the magnetic tape was initiated. The main engineer of NII KP, Yu.K.Khodarev, who was standing close to the rack where the signal was displayed, gave a command to reduce the signal because it was too strong. Then, the telephotometer data were transmitted. There was a gray background with no details. In 14.5 seconds, the signal disappeared. The same thing happened with the second telephotometer."

I presume that the "image" we have is in fact the raw teleprint of the signal as received, in which case the quickly darkening after the white area is in fact not an automatic gain control, but a manual adjustment on receipt of the signal. With the image in its correct (vertical) orientation, the whole "horizon" is then also explained as a further manual adjustment of the gain in the hope of getting some picture...

Personally I am still convinced that the whole error was in the relay via the Mars 3 orbiter, and that the lander probably functioned normally and completed its whole preprogrammed surface schedule. Fact is that the lander survived its landing (it had to deploy its pads and antenna after landing in order to start its transmissions, so probably all the basic functions and electronics worked), and from what we now know the duststorm would probably not have had much effect on it, so it is weird that after surviving EDL and starting its surface operations, both transmitters should shut down more or less at the same time.
On the other hand we do know that the Mars 3 orbiter had some serious trouble when braking into Mars orbit. It's engineburn was cut short, resulting in a completely wrong orbit, and it lost 3-axis stabilisation untill one hour after the burn, at which time the lander data was finally transmitted to earth.
With the orbiter not 3-axis stabilised it sounds reasonable that its relay antenna were not pointing to the Mars surface and it lost lock on the lander signal quickly, in which case it is logical that all lander-channels were lost almost at the same time. The 'picture' seems to confirm this, there are black 'gaps' which seem to indicate the signal was lost, then regained, and then lost again, it did not suddenly stop but it faded in and out a few times..

Finally, the lander was pre-programmed for a surface transmission of 25 minutes, where after it would switch to hibernation mode and wait for a signal from the orbiter on its next pass (scheduled 25 hours later) before starting the next transmission. However, the orbiter burned into a completely wrong orbit, with a period of 12 days, and by the time it finally passed over the landing site again, the lander was long dead...

The only 'hope' of ever getting any information from the Mars 3 lander is finding the original tape of the transmission (the one without the manual changes to the gain), if the error was indeed in the orbiter relay due to failure of its attitude-control, then there might be some very faint whisper of the lander somewhere on the tape which was overlooked at the time, and with our modern equipment something might be retrieved from it. But I guess this is overly optimistic...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tedstryk
post Jun 6 2008, 01:50 PM
Post #3


Interplanetary Dumpster Diver
****

Group: Admin
Posts: 4404
Joined: 17-February 04
From: Powell, TN
Member No.: 33



Two or three minutes into the transmission, the first data transmission (temperature, pressure, etc.) would have come in. If that could be pulled out of a tape, it would be amazing. I seriously doubt that, even if the tapes exist, that anything can be recovered, but it would be cool if it could.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- tedstryk   Mars 3 (Various Topics Merged)   Dec 29 2004, 10:36 PM
- - lyford   Since it's Wikipedia, can't you just delet...   Dec 29 2004, 11:09 PM
- - tedstryk   Thanks. I will be updating the Phobos-2 section s...   Dec 30 2004, 01:12 AM
- - PhilHorzempa   [size=2] With regard to the Soviet Mars lan...   Apr 18 2006, 10:02 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   The Soviets actually do firmly know why Mars 2 fai...   Apr 18 2006, 10:18 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Apr 18 2006, 10:18 P...   Apr 18 2006, 10:41 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Apr 18 2006, 04:18 P...   Apr 19 2006, 03:59 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Apr 19 2006, 08:59...   Apr 19 2006, 04:20 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Apr 19 2006, 10:20 AM...   Apr 19 2006, 05:56 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Apr 19 2006, 10:56...   Apr 19 2006, 06:20 PM
|- - The Messenger   QUOTE (mcaplinger @ Apr 19 2006, 12:20 PM...   Apr 21 2006, 03:53 PM
|- - mcaplinger   QUOTE (The Messenger @ Apr 21 2006, 08:53...   Apr 21 2006, 04:28 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Oh, yes, Perminov goes into great detail about the...   Apr 19 2006, 02:49 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   [size=2] This discussion is very relevant to ...   Apr 19 2006, 04:53 PM
- - tasp   Sorry I can't cite a reference for this, but i...   Apr 19 2006, 05:51 PM
- - ljk4-1   Two very relevant documents to this thread online:...   Apr 19 2006, 06:01 PM
- - tasp   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Dec 29 2004, 05:36 PM) ...   Apr 19 2006, 06:06 PM
- - Phil Stooke   tasp said "can any amount of processing put c...   Apr 19 2006, 08:12 PM
- - djellison   My take on it is - it might be a real picture, and...   Apr 19 2006, 08:41 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (djellison @ Apr 19 2006, 08:41 PM)...   Apr 19 2006, 10:16 PM
|- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Apr 19 2006, 10:16 PM) ...   Apr 20 2006, 01:52 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Apr 20 2006, 01:52 A...   Apr 20 2006, 02:35 AM
- - ljk4-1   As I recall, the famous Mars 3 image was first sho...   Apr 20 2006, 12:22 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Yeah, atmospheric conditions would have a lot to d...   Apr 20 2006, 05:05 AM
- - ljk4-1   This company (which I have no involvement with) is...   May 1 2006, 04:01 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ May 1 2006, 05:01 PM...   May 1 2006, 05:08 PM
|- - tedstryk   I have one, and am quite fond of it   May 1 2006, 08:28 PM
- - vikingmars   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Dec 30 2004, 12:36 AM) ...   May 2 2006, 08:37 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (vikingmars @ May 2 2006, 08:37 AM)...   May 2 2006, 09:32 AM
- - djellison   Might it be a vertically oriented image, but with ...   May 2 2006, 09:59 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (djellison @ May 2 2006, 09:59 AM) ...   May 2 2006, 10:23 AM
|- - 4th rock from the sun   QUOTE (djellison @ May 2 2006, 10:59 AM) ...   May 2 2006, 01:44 PM
|- - vikingmars   QUOTE (4th rock from the sun @ May 2 2006, 03...   May 3 2006, 08:57 AM
- - 4th rock from the sun   Just some data, to make things clearer: The Mars ...   May 3 2006, 03:14 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   I thought that we could try to get the record stra...   May 10 2006, 04:42 AM
- - Phil Stooke   I have never heard 'Mars 8' used for that ...   May 10 2006, 04:59 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 10 2006, 12:59 P...   May 10 2006, 05:23 PM
|- - tedstryk   Mars '96 would have been Mars 8 if it hadn...   May 10 2006, 05:29 PM
- - Zvezdichko   36 years ago, on this very same day, 2 December 19...   Dec 2 2007, 11:58 AM
- - Adam   I might be wrong, but wasn't it pretty much de...   Dec 2 2007, 12:12 PM
- - Zvezdichko   Yes. There have been speculations based on this im...   Dec 2 2007, 12:16 PM
- - nprev   A date & an achievement worth noting to be sur...   Dec 2 2007, 01:17 PM
- - Zvezdichko   Yes, only 14 years after Sputnik mankind achieved ...   Dec 2 2007, 10:33 PM
|- - dilo   Perhaps a little bit OT, but not completely... Tod...   Dec 2 2007, 11:14 PM
|- - peter59   QUOTE (dilo @ Dec 3 2007, 12:14 AM) Is in...   Dec 3 2007, 06:13 PM
|- - dilo   QUOTE (peter59 @ Dec 3 2007, 07:13 PM) EX...   Dec 4 2007, 04:28 PM
- - nprev   You're absolutely right, Dilo...we need to kee...   Dec 3 2007, 02:48 AM
- - Shaka   Good, that makes three dreamers at UMSF. How many ...   Dec 3 2007, 05:20 AM
|- - marsbug   QUOTE (Shaka @ Dec 3 2007, 05:20 AM) Go...   Dec 4 2007, 04:48 PM
- - PDP8E   another more recent thread (36 years on mars) has ...   Dec 3 2007, 02:56 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (PDP8E @ Dec 3 2007, 02:56 PM) anot...   Dec 3 2007, 05:22 PM
- - PhilCo126   Wait one minute, a topic on spacecraft lost around...   Dec 4 2007, 06:55 PM
- - PDP8E   MY SPECULATIVE ANALYSIS OF THE SOVIET MARS 3 LANDE...   Dec 12 2007, 06:57 PM
|- - vikingmars   QUOTE (PDP8E @ Dec 12 2007, 07:57 PM) Som...   Dec 16 2007, 09:34 PM
- - Phil Stooke   "Its easy…look in and near northern Ptolemy C...   Dec 12 2007, 07:50 PM
- - djellison   So a 400km x 400km search box. 160,000 sqkm That...   Dec 12 2007, 08:02 PM
- - PDP8E   A brief scan of the web turned up these images of ...   Dec 14 2007, 03:51 PM
|- - Paolo   QUOTE (PDP8E @ Dec 14 2007, 04:51 PM) A b...   Dec 15 2007, 08:18 AM
- - PhilCo126   Thanks for sharing those photos and only the black...   Dec 15 2007, 05:54 PM
- - PDP8E   We have had 8 more inches of snow today on top of ...   Dec 16 2007, 08:36 PM
- - Geert   Various sources all seem to confirm that the camer...   Jun 6 2008, 07:56 AM
|- - tedstryk   Two or three minutes into the transmission, the fi...   Jun 6 2008, 01:50 PM
- - aconnell   Dear Tedstryk. I'd be really grateful if you c...   Jun 6 2008, 05:11 PM
|- - tedstryk   It was an image I clearly labeled a "what if...   Jun 6 2008, 05:46 PM
- - nprev   I don't know, Ted. They're undeniably fasc...   Jun 6 2008, 07:06 PM
|- - tedstryk   nprev, as I said in my description at the beginnin...   Jun 6 2008, 08:26 PM
- - Geert   On his excellent site on Soviet Space Cameras ( ht...   Jun 7 2008, 08:42 AM
- - aconnell   Many thanks Ted. I can remember as a teenager in t...   Jun 7 2008, 02:09 PM
|- - tedstryk   It is a shame they didn't start the transmissi...   Jun 7 2008, 02:26 PM
- - Zvezdichko   Conspiracy theorists are and will always be a lost...   Jun 7 2008, 02:39 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Zvezdichko @ Jun 7 2008, 02:39 PM)...   Jun 7 2008, 03:02 PM
- - Zvezdichko   Yeah, MetNet is an elegant decision. However, I...   Jun 7 2008, 03:23 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Zvezdichko @ Jun 7 2008, 03:23 PM)...   Jun 7 2008, 03:28 PM
|- - tedstryk   Oh, OK, in the sense of possible launch failure. ...   Jun 7 2008, 03:46 PM
- - Zvezdichko   I personally see Volna as an unreliable vehicle.   Jun 7 2008, 03:35 PM
- - Zvezdichko   Yeah, that's what I meant. Volna failed to lau...   Jun 7 2008, 03:49 PM
|- - tedstryk   My guess is that the little Chinese orbiter took i...   Jun 7 2008, 03:54 PM
- - Zvezdichko   I understand, but I also don't see how the des...   Jun 7 2008, 04:02 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Zvezdichko @ Jun 7 2008, 04:02 PM)...   Jun 7 2008, 04:05 PM
- - Zvezdichko   You are probably right. The Chinese orbiter will b...   Jun 7 2008, 04:17 PM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Zvezdichko @ Jun 7 2008, 05:17 PM)...   Jun 7 2008, 06:16 PM
- - Zvezdichko   Yeah, that's why the failure of Mars 96 was re...   Jun 7 2008, 06:41 PM
|- - tedstryk   I hope it makes it on there! By the way, here...   Jun 8 2008, 04:34 AM
- - Zvezdichko   Ted, I'm reading the upper link with a great i...   Jun 8 2008, 07:54 AM
|- - tedstryk   I don't think the Mars-6 flyby module took ima...   Jun 8 2008, 12:52 PM
|- - Geert   QUOTE (Zvezdichko @ Jun 8 2008, 02:54 PM)...   Jun 9 2008, 05:12 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Geert @ Jun 9 2008, 06:12 AM) The ...   Jun 9 2008, 12:53 PM
- - Phil Stooke   A different story on Mars 2 and Mars 3. Where d...   Feb 5 2009, 12:14 AM
|- - tedstryk   According to Sasha Basilevsky, Hellas was chosen f...   Feb 5 2009, 12:39 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Yikes - Google Mars has Mars 2 at the stupid Wikip...   Feb 5 2009, 04:36 AM
|- - Geert   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Feb 5 2009, 11:36 AM...   Feb 6 2009, 09:38 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Way off course by a few hundred km maybe, not half...   Feb 6 2009, 11:50 AM
|- - Geert   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Feb 6 2009, 06:50 PM...   Feb 7 2009, 04:51 AM
|- - tedstryk   QUOTE (Geert @ Feb 7 2009, 05:51 AM) It i...   Feb 7 2009, 01:47 PM
|- - DDAVIS   'The fact that the landingsites were chosen fr...   Feb 7 2009, 10:05 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Hi Don! You are thinking of Mars 6. The Mari...   Feb 7 2009, 11:16 PM
- - Phil Stooke   http://www.laspace.ru/rus/mars23.php Lavochkin we...   Feb 14 2009, 02:51 AM
|- - Geert   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ Feb 14 2009, 09:51 A...   Feb 14 2009, 05:26 AM
- - Geert   Forgot to mention that according to the above reas...   Feb 14 2009, 05:41 AM
- - nprev   Thank you for this very comprehensive and interest...   Feb 14 2009, 07:10 AM
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th April 2024 - 04:30 AM
RULES AND GUIDELINES
Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting.

IMAGE COPYRIGHT
Images posted on UnmannedSpaceflight.com may be copyrighted. Do not reproduce without permission. Read here for further information on space images and copyright.

OPINIONS AND MODERATION
Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators.
SUPPORT THE FORUM
Unmannedspaceflight.com is funded by the Planetary Society. Please consider supporting our work and many other projects by donating to the Society or becoming a member.