IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Ranger, Surveyor, Luna, Luna Orbiter, 1960s Missions to Earth's Moon
Bob Shaw
post Apr 21 2005, 08:07 PM
Post #1


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 2488
Joined: 17-April 05
From: Glasgow, Scotland, UK
Member No.: 239



Have any of the serious experts on this board ever sorted out any 1960s images? I'm thinking of the Surveyor panoramas (in the 60s they did it with photos pasted onto the inside of half-spheres!) and the way that the exposure dropped off toward one corner, making a horrible patchwork effect. Or them lines and spots on the Lunar Orbiter images...

Most of the NASA mission data should be available as digital source material, and thus could be manipulated, though I suspect that getting anything 'real' from Soviet missions would be a bit of a chase!

Any thoughts?


--------------------
Remember: Time Flies like the wind - but Fruit Flies like bananas!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Guest_BruceMoomaw_*
post Apr 24 2005, 12:44 AM
Post #2





Guests






Space History Geek Time:

(1) Phil Stooke has got me -- I wasn't aware that this was the main job of the Surveyor descent cameras. (Phil, have you ever considered the possibility of trying to locate the Surveyor 4 landing site, and thus finally laying to absolute rest the faint chance that it just might have suffered a transmitter failure on the way down and thus soft-landed intact?)

(2) According to Aviation Week (and, I believe, several other publications before Surveyor 1's launch), the decision had been reached not to swing out the high-gain antenna for descent photos even before that omni-antenna boom got temporarily stuck on Surveyor 1. (Even at age 12, I was following the space program in obsessive detail back then, as I already had been for 18 months -- I stayed up all night for the first time in my life to watch the Surveyor 1 landing and the first photos from it. That very first photo -- fuzzy though it was -- did clearly show one of the footads sitting intact on the surface, and just a short time later they started getting a parade of other photos in the preliminary 200-line mode that were more legible, including a few nice horizon shots. My comments 10 years later, when the TV networks -- at least on the Pacific coast -- couldn't be troubled to cover the Viking 1 landing live, are unprintable.)

(3) It was Surveyors 8 through 10 that would have had two survey cameras for stereo shots -- along with the alpha-scatter spectrometer, a better-instrumented version of the surface sampler arm for soil mechanics, a one-axis seismometer, a meteoroid ejecta detector, a package of gyros and accelerometers as a "touchdown dynamics experiment" to precisely monitor the landing shock for more soil mechanics data, and a bunch of heaters to allow the craft to be certain of surviving the lunar night.

Originally, in fact, these "Block 2 Surveyors" were supposed to be #5 through 7. But due to NASA's growing need to economize (largely due to Vietnam), plus the near-certain feeling that all the early Surveyors would fail (everyone had traumatic memories of the earlier and easier Ranger program), in early 1965 those three Surveyors were switched to become more of the simple "Block 1" variety -- with the Block 2 missions becoming #8 through 10, whose funding was always provisional. And then in December 1965 those three provisional Surveyors were cancelled.

When #1 shocked everybody -- including yours truly -- by succeeding, JPL was caught flat-footed and hastily had to try and devise a way to add more science instruments after all. The surface sampler and alpha spectrometer were picked as the most valuable possible substitutes for the descent camera. (By the way, NASA was seriously considering the "bunny hop" as early as Surveyor 2; a whole sequence of unfortunate events in the Lemony Snicket tradition delayed it until #6.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dvandorn
post Apr 24 2005, 06:57 AM
Post #3


Senior Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3419
Joined: 9-February 04
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Member No.: 15



QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Apr 23 2005, 07:44 PM)
(3)  It was Surveyors 8 through 10 that would have had two survey cameras for stereo shots -- along with the alpha-scatter spectrometer, a better-instrumented version of the surface sampler arm for soil mechanics, a one-axis seismometer, a meteoroid ejecta detector, a package of gyros and accelerometers as a "touchdown dynamics experiment" to precisely monitor the landing shock for more soil mechanics data, and a bunch of heaters to allow the craft to be certain of surviving the lunar night. 
*


Time to fill out the remaining dark corners in the Surveyor program's history...

(A) The original Surveyor program included both orbiter and lander versions. Mostly for management reasons, the Surveyor people got the orbiter taken away and were told to concentrate on developing a soft lander that would work. When a need for an orbiter was still keenly felt, the prosaically-named Lunar Orbiter program was conceived and funded (but given to another contractor).

(cool.gif Until fairly late in the development cycles of the later Surveyor block modes, there was a Block III design that used a modified Surveyor landing "base" to deliver a small roving vehicle. The entire science package, including the camera system, was located on the rover. For a time, as a last-ditch attempt to extend the Surveyor program, several groups were proposing that NASA skip the Block II flights and go directly from five or six Block I's to Block III rover flights. But the design team continued to have problems, the weight of the vehicle was going to need a more powerful booster than the Atlas-Centaur, and Apollo loomed in the very near future. So an early American lunar version of the MERs (and of Lunokhod) died a-borning.

There is some nice, if spotty, information about the Surveyor rover development attempt in Don Wilhelms' excellent "To a Rocky Moon." Unfortunately, I've never found any drawings or conceptions of any of the designs.

-the other Doug


--------------------
“The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.” -Mark Twain
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Bob Shaw   Ranger, Surveyor, Luna, Luna Orbiter   Apr 21 2005, 08:07 PM
- - Phil Stooke   What a coincidence that you should ask this questi...   Apr 21 2005, 08:43 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Phil: Terrific! I don't suppose there ar...   Apr 21 2005, 08:53 PM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Apr 21 2005, 03:53 PM)Phil:...   Apr 22 2005, 09:07 AM
- - Phil Stooke   I will post some Surveyor stuff when I have time. ...   Apr 22 2005, 03:50 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Phil: Very, very interesting - and the 'work ...   Apr 22 2005, 07:28 PM
- - Phil Stooke   No! I have to leave something for other folks...   Apr 22 2005, 08:27 PM
- - ilbasso   Absolutely brilliant work, Phil! I'll be ...   Apr 22 2005, 09:45 PM
|- - 4th rock from the sun   Very good Phil!!! Can you tell us the...   Apr 22 2005, 11:35 PM
- - Phil Stooke   The Surveyor pans are 360 wide, though a hardware ...   Apr 23 2005, 01:38 PM
- - Phil Stooke   The Surveyor pans are 360 wide, though a hardware ...   Apr 23 2005, 01:40 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   As I understand it, another factor behind not usin...   Apr 23 2005, 03:25 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Bruce, the main purpose of the descent camera, of ...   Apr 23 2005, 04:08 PM
- - ilbasso   As for fascinating and beautiful vistas, I also ha...   Apr 23 2005, 07:28 PM
- - edstrick   Surveyor 1 was not expected to land. The prefligh...   Apr 23 2005, 08:50 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   It was the Surveyor I landing which hooked me for ...   Apr 23 2005, 09:10 PM
|- - tedstryk   I imagine some 3-D data could be reconstructed for...   Apr 24 2005, 12:17 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Space History Geek Time: (1) Phil Stooke has got...   Apr 24 2005, 12:44 AM
|- - dvandorn   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Apr 23 2005, 07:44 PM)(3...   Apr 24 2005, 06:57 AM
- - Phil Stooke   It would not be possible to locate Surveyor 4 with...   Apr 24 2005, 03:36 AM
- - edstrick   Good additional info there. I'm pretty sure I...   Apr 24 2005, 08:07 AM
|- - gndonald   QUOTE (edstrick @ Apr 24 2005, 04:07 PM) ...   Nov 5 2006, 09:04 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Yep -- I first ran across that series in 1971 at t...   Apr 24 2005, 09:37 AM
- - edstrick   Interesting!.... The Surveyor cameras were an...   Apr 24 2005, 09:45 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   QUOTE (edstrick @ Apr 24 2005, 08:07 AM)Good ...   Apr 24 2005, 09:59 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   By the way, that JPL series on their projects (sev...   Apr 24 2005, 10:01 AM
- - edstrick   Ah!... an article from Aviation "Leak...   Apr 24 2005, 11:07 AM
- - PhilHorzempa   [size=2] To continue this discussion of Sur...   Apr 24 2006, 09:05 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Another Phil: Yes; that's how the samples wer...   Apr 24 2006, 09:42 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   I've got quite a bit more in the way of detail...   Apr 24 2006, 10:52 PM
- - edstrick   One other distinction I remember reading about the...   Apr 25 2006, 05:15 AM
|- - Bob Shaw   Bruce: Last year you mentioned, more or less in p...   Apr 25 2006, 03:16 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   I didn't know that. It is a fact, though, tha...   Apr 25 2006, 05:54 AM
- - edstrick   I could be wrong on that.. I'm working from fa...   Apr 25 2006, 10:47 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   It was an Aviation Week issue all the way back fro...   Apr 25 2006, 09:42 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Bruce: Thanks! Sometime soon I hope to have m...   Apr 25 2006, 10:03 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   While I'm at the library (whenever I do finall...   Apr 25 2006, 10:54 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   I want to comment on a memo that I saw in the NASA...   May 1 2006, 03:08 AM
- - dvandorn   Well... all I can tell you is that I've proba...   May 1 2006, 04:09 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   Gadfry! That's a completely new one on me...   May 1 2006, 08:52 AM
- - ljk4-1   For those of you who may be in the Washington, D.C...   May 1 2006, 02:35 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   Concerning the plan for the LMSS, I may have a pho...   May 1 2006, 08:52 PM
- - PhilCo126   Spacecraftfilms.com is planning a DVD-set of ...   May 4 2006, 08:20 AM
- - ljk4-1   There was an earlier request for an image of the o...   May 19 2006, 04:27 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   That drawing of Surveyor in a 1962 issue of ...   May 20 2006, 04:16 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   I've been thinking lately that it would be nea...   May 26 2006, 03:43 AM
- - ljk4-1   Fortieth anniversary time of the launch and landin...   Jun 1 2006, 04:22 AM
- - ljk4-1   Mike Dinn, who in 1966 worked on the Surveyor 1 mi...   Jun 1 2006, 01:44 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Jun 1 2006, 02:44 PM...   Jun 1 2006, 01:52 PM
- - edstrick   Block 4 was to include more block 2 type retro-roc...   Nov 6 2006, 10:51 AM
|- - gndonald   QUOTE (edstrick @ Nov 6 2006, 06:51 PM) B...   Nov 8 2006, 02:32 PM
- - Phil Stooke   According to: http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4210/pag...   Nov 8 2006, 04:22 PM
- - dvandorn   There were two reasons why the Ranger series was a...   Nov 9 2006, 12:03 AM


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th April 2024 - 10:09 AM
RULES AND GUIDELINES
Please read the Forum Rules and Guidelines before posting.

IMAGE COPYRIGHT
Images posted on UnmannedSpaceflight.com may be copyrighted. Do not reproduce without permission. Read here for further information on space images and copyright.

OPINIONS AND MODERATION
Opinions expressed on UnmannedSpaceflight.com are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UnmannedSpaceflight.com or The Planetary Society. The all-volunteer UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderation team is wholly independent of The Planetary Society. The Planetary Society has no influence over decisions made by the UnmannedSpaceflight.com moderators.
SUPPORT THE FORUM
Unmannedspaceflight.com is funded by the Planetary Society. Please consider supporting our work and many other projects by donating to the Society or becoming a member.