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Posted by: dilo Aug 2 2005, 07:57 PM

Far from today's news...
Do you recall that a DVD disk was placed onboard the Cassini spacecraft, containing the signatures from 616,420 people around the world?
http://saturn1.jpl.nasa.gov/kids/amazing-dvd.cfm
I sent my signature, and I bet that I'm not the only one in this Forum...
Now, do someone knows if there is an online viewable copy of DVD? I would like very much to check my name (probably not easy to find...!)
Marco.

Posted by: djellison Aug 2 2005, 09:27 PM

I sent mine in but I think it was probably too late to get onboard. I only found out about it a month before the deadline.

Doug

Posted by: CosmicRocker Aug 4 2005, 05:48 AM

I missed the Cassini guest book also, and don't know how to check it online. But, there is a sign-up page for the New Horizons mission to Pluto, and it allows you to check for registered names.

http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/ecard/sendName_ecard_content.html

Whether this is the last chance, as they say, to sign up for the 'first mission to the last planet' seems a bit debatable at the moment.

Interestingly, the language in their participation certifications is quite prescient during the current debates about planets. See the quote below.

"Thank you for joining the first mission to the last planet! A compact disc bearing your name will be included on the New Horizons spacecraft, set for the first voyage to a new class of planets on the solar system's farthest frontier.

Come with us as we complete the reconnaissance of the solar system and unlock the secrets of Pluto, its moon, Charon, and the Kuiper Belt."

...a reconnaissance it surely is. That is what the exploration of the Universe will always be. Keep in mind that that this is simply the edge of our local neighborhood.

...To boldly go where no man has gone before...

Posted by: dilo Aug 4 2005, 06:24 AM

Done...
Thanks, CosmicRocker!

Posted by: elakdawalla Aug 5 2005, 12:31 AM

Unlike the various "Send Your Name To [PLACE]" efforts since the Cassini DVD, this was kind of an analog, not digital effort. The actual signatures were scanned in and included on the DVD as image files (by diligent Planetary Society volunteers), so I'm pretty sure there's no searchable list of names.

However, copies of the disk do exist. At the "http://sci2.esa.int/huygens/conference/" meeting in Noordwijk on 13-17 April 2004, Jean-Pierre Lebreton was handing out CD-ROM copies of the Cassini-Huygens DVD. I seem to have lost my copy. Does anyone know if there's a version on the Web anywhere?

Posted by: dilo Aug 5 2005, 06:23 AM

...are you sure?!? pls, look better!

Posted by: um3k Aug 6 2005, 11:33 PM

This is extremely off topic, but here it goes: Welcome to the Unmanned Spaceflight forum, Ms. Lakdawalla!

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 1 2005, 11:09 PM

I finally found my copy of the disk. It contains 27,000 separate TIFF files. An example taken at random from the U.K. folder:



(I blacked out the addresses on the postcards.)

So...I do have access to a complete copy of all the signatures. However, searching it for specific ones would be very tedious. The TIFF files are sorted by country, and, within the US, by state, but other than that there's no identifying information connected with each file. Sorry to disappoint. I'd be happy to place a copy of the contents of the disk online, but I'm a little worried about posting all the addresses on the postcards. They are 8 years old, but...

If anyone knows someone who wants to pull and catalog hundreds of thousands of signatures from among 27,000 individual tiff files, send them to me!

Emily

Posted by: mchan Sep 2 2005, 01:04 AM

I had sent my signature in and would like to check if it made it on to the disk. So I would like a copy of the disk to search.

However, when you got the copy of the disk at the conference, was there any accomanying document describing its use? E.g., you may not reproduce, exhibit, etc. You may want to check with Legal before putting it online.

Mike

Posted by: ljk4-1 Sep 2 2005, 02:22 PM

When and if the disc is ever recovered from Cassini, does anyone honestly think a future civilization will be able to read a DVD, even an advanced technical one that could pluck a spacecraft from around Saturn? And what will a bunch of names and addresses mean centuries hence - to say nothing if it is found by an ETI.

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 2 2005, 05:32 PM

I think that most people who put their signature on a spacecraft aren't imagining their signature being read by E. T. Instead, I think it gives people a sense that somehow a little piece of themselves is riding along with the mission as it goes out into space. It sounds corny, but people really love it, especially kids, and also especially young people from less-developed countries who know that they have no realistic hope of actually becoming an astronaut or even a lowly space scientist or engineer, but feel that they participate at least emotionally in space exploration by putting their name on a spacecraft.

When the rovers were on their way to Mars, I often received messages from youths from Africa or India or South America or elsewhere asking for information. Their messages would open, "I am so-and-so and my name is on the disk on the Mars Rover," as though that was their point of greatest pride. I also once spoke with an educator from a NASA center who told me a story about a distraught mother who contacted her after some tornado or flood and said "our house is gone, we've lost everything, and the thing my kids are most upset about losing is the certificates that said their names were on the rovers. Can we get those back?" (The answer is yes, by the way.)

It's a tiny way to participate in space exploration, but the more of the public who feel a sense of ownership about a space mission, the more they will support future missions, and we support that!

Emily

Posted by: elakdawalla Sep 2 2005, 05:38 PM

I should clarify -- I actually have two disks, one that was being handed out at the conference, which contains messages that were apparently submitted to ESA via the Web, and one of unknown origin that actually contains the signatures that were scanned by the Society volunteers. The example I posted was from the latter. For privacy reasons I don't think it would be appropriate for me to post the contents on the Web unless someone goes through and blanks out all the address information first, which is not likely to happen, unfortunately. And I don't think I should distribute copies of the disk, for the same reason. But if you are ever in Pasadena, contact me and I'll let you search through it!

Emily

Posted by: mchan Sep 2 2005, 05:55 PM

It is not so much a meams of sending information to a future civilization as it is an expression of support and participation from people today who were not directly working on the project. For myself, it also expresses a thought of having another something I did be around long after I am gone. I.e., if Cassini stays in Saturn orbit for centuries and is recovered and put into a museum. The meaning centuies hence might be akin to the meaning of undeciphered hieroglyphics on an antiquity of today.

Mike

Posted by: ljk4-1 Sep 2 2005, 06:35 PM

I actually hope that Cassini and other such spacecraft are left in space, where they will be much better preserved than stuck in some glass case on a planet's surface. If a civilization has the means to reach these probes to do such a thing, they can also study them thorougly in space and then let them be for someone or something else to find to learn something about us.

Posted by: Bob Shaw Sep 2 2005, 09:17 PM

Cassini, and the rest of them, *should* all end up safely in museums, but *should* also be left in place. How? You build the museum around the antique spacecraft! Thus we have on-site interpretation, preservation, and education...

...of course, it'll take a while for the museums to be built - consider the CDs to be the foundation stones!

Posted by: dilo Sep 2 2005, 09:40 PM

Emily, it seems I should plan a trip to California!

Posted by: Katie Sep 9 2005, 05:32 AM

I guess for me just the idea that my name is up in space is enough. I work with preschoolers and toddlers. I'll never be part of the space program but knowing that a little piece of me is up there orbiting Saturn and will be orbiting Pluto in 10 years is enough even if it's just my name and no ET ever finds or makes sense of it.

Posted by: Bob Shaw Sep 9 2005, 10:18 AM

The early Pioneer Lunar probes were accompanied by (probably) hundreds of autographs, and good luck messages - but *not* on the spacecraft. The launch crew and others autographed the aerodynamic shroud, which of course was jettisoned during ascent, but they made their point anyway!

Does anyone know of other such examples of informal messages aboard spacecraft? I'm sure that there must be lots...

Posted by: djellison Sep 9 2005, 10:52 AM

Didnt someone admit to licking their thumb and leaving a dna-laden thumb print just under a thermal cover on something - a Voyager or a Pioneer I'm sure.

Doug

Posted by: ljk4-1 Sep 9 2005, 02:44 PM

I did not recommend that spacecraft currently in space be placed in museums, even ones surrounding them in space itself. How can we learn about interstellar debris impact rates and such for our future star probes if we "protect" our ancient craft? Besides, the near vacuum of space will be its best protection.

By the time we have the technology to find and study such vessels, on-site analysis techniques should be more than sufficient to give our descendants all the data they need on the craft.

See this online article about Space Archaeology here for a description of what I mean:

http://www.archaeology.org/0411/etc/space.html

If they want to put them in museums after all that, it will be mainly for sentimental reasons. Otherwise they should be left in space where they will be much better preserved for far longer.

The Pioneer and Voyager probes are estimated to have a survival rate of 1 billion years in deep space.

Going back to the topic of messages and such on discs, I say again that the value of preserving our culture and history in deep space necessitates that these messages discs have far more important information on them than a bunch of signatures and trite statements.

If you want to have a separate disc with just that for the purpose of making people feel a part of the mission, that is fine (my name can be found on a number of such discs in deep space and on other worlds), but there should be a message container with pertinent information about us to preserve for the future, as nothing on Earth will last as long. This is vitally important both for our descendants and the possibility that ETI may find them as well.

Sadly, most time capsules and items placed in foundation stones are essentially fluff of little use to historians. For some ways to see how it should and should not be done, read here:

http://davidszondy.com/future/timecapsule/timecapsules.htm

One example of good information preservation has been done on the ESA Rosetta comet probe with the Rosetta Project disc, which has preserved thousands of human languages. Just imagine how important that will be for future societies studying us, or for an ETI trying to decipher us.

http://www.rosettaproject.org/live

The Pioneer Plaques were a fine start for saying something about us for ages in a scientific fashion, and the Voyager Interstellar Records are the literal gold standard for how such messages should be constructed and utilized for future messages and historical preservation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record

Some have said that more modern technology could preserve every scrap of human history on a single disc these days. This may be true, but how would it be organized properly to be understood, and more importantly, will it be readable by a future humanity or ETI, to say nothing of comprehensible?

The Voyager Records have the virtue of being able to at least produce the sounds, music, and languages by the mere placing of the also stored stylus or some kind of needle in the grooves and spinning the record. Can't do that with a DVD or CD-ROM.

Also, the DVDs can be destroyed by radiation, which is in abundant in space and around and on the planets. So even those mere signatures may be destroyed long before anyone can come along to read them, ruining any chance of any kind of message or preservation to the future.

Has TPS or any other group that works on such discs thought about how to better preserve our messages to the future so that they are still there ages hence? Carving in rock may seem primitive, but how much less would we know about Sumer and other such cultures if they had put all their writings on paper?

As for the benefits of sending physical messages across space, see this informative Web site:

http://www.winlab.rutgers.edu/~crose/cgi-bin/cosmicB.html

Posted by: dvandorn Sep 9 2005, 07:21 PM

I recall a story (that has been verified, I believe) that a member of the Grumman close-out crew at the Cape, when buttoning up the MESA equipment table in LM-5 prior to the launch of Apollo 11, wrote a short note (something like "Good luck and Godspeed") and his signature on the inside of the thermal blanket that covered the MESA's contents. When Armstrong pulled the blankets off, he saw the message, didn't say anything at the time, and didn't even mention it in the crew debriefing -- but he did tell his superiors quietly, and apparently that Grumman guy got sacked.

-the other Doug

Posted by: Bob Shaw Sep 9 2005, 08:44 PM

other Doug:

I think you may be right about the writing within the MESA LM bay area, but seem to remember it being a bit of a happier tale, with a range of signatures from the close-out crew and no hangings of enthusiastic engineers. There were also a number of *ahem* unofficial pictures added to at least one surface cuff checklist...

Must go and read Chaikin!

Bob Shaw

Posted by: ljk4-1 Sep 9 2005, 08:44 PM

I hope the ending to that story is the only untrue part, because firing some poor guy who worked on the system and only wanted to give the astronauts a wish you well message is just wrong, be it 1969 or 2005 or any other era. What, his writing would have damaged the MESA somehow? If it was that delicate, it should never have been sent to the Moon.

Along with the requisite plaques and medallions sent on numerous Soviet probes:

http://www.mentallandscape.com/V_Pennants.htm

I know that a USA flag was rolled up into one of the support legs of Surveyor 1 in 1966, but I do not have the reference handy.

Oran Nicks recounts in his NASA book Far Travelers, that a member of the Mariner 2 team had put a USA flag in the first US probe to Venus in 1962. You can read it here and the whole book online:

"Jack James' penchant for patriotic display came to light as Mariner 2 was well on its way to Venus, when he disclosed that he had personally placed a small American flag between some layers of thermal material on top of the spacecraft. Had I known about this when it occurred, I would have reacted as I did when Jack later had a seal added to the Mariner 4 compartment cover.

"Some day future Americans may recover Mariner 2 and rejoice in exposing its national symbol, proving that Jack was right in doing what I considered to be sensitive at the time. As things turned out, I am proud that our flag and great seal are out there in orbit about the Sun along with the planets."

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-480/ch4.htm

You can see the Seal of the United States on the side of the first American Mars probe here:

http://www.petermasek.info/m4gallery.html

Dare I ask what was so sensitive about putting a small flag on a probe? A weight issue? A threat to the technology of the craft? Could not have been anything PC back then.

As for writing messages on the Pioneer lunar probe rocket shrouds, a National Geographic Magazine issue from 1959 actually has a photo of a launch pad technician writing his name and good wishes on the Pioneer 2 shroud. Maybe all that ink and graphite kept these probes from making it to the Moon.