UMSF Changes Ahead- PLEASE READ Options

[Phil Stooke]

Several points to ponder here. Generally I support Doug's comments.

This is the best place on the internet for a sensible discussion of planetary exploration as revealed by imaging. There's another excellent forum which is chiefly concerned with engineering and policy issues. Social media as a whole have become terribly fragmented (especially with the descent of Twitter). There's just no better place to be than this.

As far as web design is concerned, simple is better. Modern web design is atrocious. All the basic principles of good design have been abandoned (check out many of the 'new space' websites for examples). If someone tells you a website needs to be updated to keep up with the times - run fast. Most likely they are just hoping they will get the job. UMSF is fine the way it is.

As for who runs the server and how it is funded, I don't have any preferences or suggestions. There's no doubt nprev has done an excellent job in recent years. I want to thank everyone who contributes images and discussion. I think one especially important thing the forum can do these days is to draw attention to the scattered fragments of news from different sources so everyone can keep up to date.

Phil

[JohnVV]

my only concern is that if facebook,twitter,discord,... icons are added is that they allow for tracking of the visitor to this site and possibly on the rest of the net -- a bit of a pet peeve of mine


as to the look i like the current style BUT the backend should be upgraded , things like a " dark mode" would be nice and larger attachments would help .

[tedstryk]

my only concern is that if facebook,twitter,discord,... icons are added is that they allow for tracking of the visitor to this site and possibly on the rest of the net -- a bit of a pet peeve of mine


as to the look i like the current style BUT the backend should be upgraded , things like a " dark mode" would be nice and larger attachments would help .

To be clear, the status quo isn't an option. It costs the TPS upwards of $5000 a year to host the forum, and they are only willing to support it as is for another six months to a year. So to keep it the same or similar to how it is, it would require us to find someone else to host it and/or pay for it ourselves.

[StargazeInWonder]

Things I could imagine being better: The ability to upload images with larger size. It's weird now – not a big problem but weird – when someone posts a large image and my browser initially renders it at the massive size, but then suddenly shrinks it back down and requires a click to a new window to view it at the previous size. I think it makes more sense to have a thumbnail from the start, instead of the current big->small->big sequence. But this is a minor quibble.

Things I could easily imaging becoming worse: Pop-ups, ads, cookies, requests for notifications. That is a plague around the Internet that this site has avoided. Especially when ads have running video in them by default and/or reduce the effective content window to a fraction of the full window.

Things that could go either way: There are currently content policies against human spaceflight, astrobiology, and obviously many off-topic things like politics, UFOs, etc. As a whole, these policies keep out a lot of noise, although there's nothing inherently about the first two of those that makes it impossible to discuss them reasonably. My point here is not to argue for or against a change, just to note that any change in the setup, ownership, amount of new traffic, etc. might bring about such a change or increase the need for moderation. The beginning of a new program of lunar exploration over the next couple of years might attract interest (positive? negative?) for imaging work, etc. that would blur or break down that boundary.

Change tends to occur with certain objectives in mind, then brings unexpected consequences.

[scalbers]

I run my personal website on a hosting service "Justhost". Perhaps a forum can be set up at a site like that (as Doug suggests)?

https://my.justhost.com/cgi/help/forum

More phpbb options here. Could be a bit of effort to import this board into phpbb though in theory it can be done. This is a low cost option.

https://www.phpbb.com/hosting/?sid=285f0be2...38a56da1dea0dd2

Invision boards like this one are a bit more expensive:

https://invisioncommunity.com/buy

Another possible forum name is "uncrewedspaceflight.com"

[Tom Dahl]

As a daily-reader and occasional-poster, I have been happy enough with the mechanics of the UMSF forums software. A very important feature to me is the ability to see a list of recent topics and replies, as provided by this forum's "View New Posts" feature. I think the long history of posted content is a very valuable asset. I believe topics that are years or even decades old should remain eligible for new replies (something that some forums prohibit via an auto-locking feature after some amount of time, such as six months). The more that this forum's existing content becomes harder to access and disjointed from any new "active" forum system, the less I will be happy. Ideally the current content could be migrated more-or-less intact to the hypothetical new forum system (sadly, I suppose that is very unlikely to happen).

The basic organization of a forum - a persistent hierarchy with categories, topics, and replies, is much preferred over an infinite-scrolling chronologically-based presentation (such as used by X/Twitter and Facebook's feed). I would not use UMSF if it adopted a "feed" style presentation. A change in forum software might cause me minimal disruption, or it might cause me to cease using UMSF, depending on the nature of the new software.

Attracting new members is fine in-and-of itself, but odds are that a major increase in membership (specifically in members who post) would probably decrease the average quality of posts. That would be bad, possibly fatal to the forum. I appreciate the fact that The Planetary Society (of which I am a member) wants to expand its reach and impact. But I worry about the apparent focus by TPS on image-processing. To me, that is not a primary reason why I visit this forum. I like seeing "space images" posted here, to be sure, but other information such as mission updates, discussions of spacecraft operations and engineering challenges, are just as interesting as imagery to me.

[Explorer1]

Having lurked since the Mer.rlproject.com days, I would agree with basically all of the above posts; especially the historical value of the threads here (despite the inevitable broken links over the years). The ability to resurrect old threads is especially useful, given the speed of both spacecraft development and trajectories often being measured in years. Any successor should have that. I have no opinion on any name change, but keeping the SNR ratio high is as important as ever these days.
I certainly don't post often for those reasons, except for some particularly burning question I cannot satisfy myself.
Coming up on the 20th anniversary of this place, I certainly hope it goes on for another 20 (the Uranus and Neptune subsection needs some activity!)

[stevesliva]

To be clear, the status quo isn't an option. It costs the TPS upwards of $5000 a year to host the forum, and they are only willing to support it as is for another six months to a year. So to keep it the same or similar to how it is, it would require us to find someone else to host it and/or pay for it ourselves.

So, what are they willing to pay for? Might make the options more clear.

[nprev]

Thanks again to everybody for your thoughful replies and opinions...and thank you very much, Doug, for your kind acknowedgement of me here. You built it, man; I'm just the unskilled handyman trying to change lightbulbs and unclog the drains.

To clarify, what we're doing right now is gathering your inputs to formulate a response back to TPS of what YOU the users value, want, and need. We'll continue this data acquisition effort for another week or so and then send that response to them. As to what they will or will not do that's an open question right now, but we expect that this effort will inform that.

If we can't reach an acceptable agreement with TPS then it is still conceivable that we could go our own way if we can identify a cost-effective and sustainable way to do so. One thing I'm hearing loud and clear is that while growing our exposure/membership may be desirable to TPS, it is most definitely not a goal of Forum members--but maintaining a high SNR, intelligent, rational, respectful discourse, and an accessible, update-capable database of previous topics all absolutely are goals highly valued by our community.

I wholeheartedly agree,

[Brian Swift]

Like button, view counts (basic analytics), mobile friendly, dark mode, opt-in to notifications, friendlier search capability, some thought given to API access in the event RSF becomes popular enough that someone would want to create an App for it (or integrate into some existing app), need to still maintain unmannedspaceflight.com domain name to prevent breaking historic external links into UMFS, ability to serve large images intelligently (initial image appropriate resolution for device type and bandwidth, click for larger image, un-pinch to zoom to full-size image), also serve videos, sound files, 3D models, ability to export into an archive everything you've posted, make it easy for non-members to just consume content, have a feed/topic that just shows aggregation of new pictures/media added across site, have a unified calendar of upcoming space events the members could contribute to, open up to to more topics (eg allow calendar to have all upcoming launches even if crewed), act as hosting site for web based space themed apps (eg if someone wants to build a WebXR mars virtual environment, or improved catalog of data for some some mission), include the "share to" buttons (those who like to think they aren't being tracked online are already taking measures that they think counter the tracking), accessibility in terms of ADA compliance.

Obviously, some of the preceding are "spared no expense" ideas.

Also, I think this survey is highly subject so sampling bias. For a broader view, could also send a bulk email asking for feedback from people who were active contributors but left (eg query database for users with a few hundred posts spanning a couple years who haven't logged in >18 months).

Also curious about cost breakdown of $5K/year (reasonable for 2 hours of IT support a month, seems high if just for vBulletin cloud hosting)

[climber]

Hi all and thank to Doug and Nick,
This is the only place with no ads where you can find easily what you’re looking for. Just keep it as simple as it is.
This place is more like a book than a website. So please NO like button (even if I really miss it sometimes)
I, as some of you here, used to be a TPS member but not anymore and I fear they can change UNMSF the same way.
I used to donate here when it was necessary and asked for and ready to do so again instead of loosing Doug’s spirit (no pun) when he created it.
The improvements I’d like to see have already been pointed out by others.

[jasedm]

Hi everyone, and heartfelt belated thanks to all the admins and mods who have kept the forum clean, orderly, relevant and free of bile since inception.

I've been here since 2006 and a lurker before that. The current format, forum rules and quick accessibility keep me coming back.

I echo many of the comments so far:

1) It's very useful to be able to track back on threads that are a decade (and more) old - it gives a very good perspective on how hard-fought and difficult it is getting probe missions off the ground (thinking particularly Webb and New Horizons here).

2) The formatting and layout are very simple, but in a good way - this place doesn't suffer from lack of flashy graphics, animated avatars, pop-ups, advertising etc.
Formatting for categories and topics is a huge bonus, avoiding the need for endless scrolling prevalent elsewhere.

3) I can only speak for myself, but I have and would be more than happy again to contribute (annually?) towards the running costs of the forum to keep it functioning as the erudite and respectful place we're all used to. It's interesting that a number of members here have unsubscribed at TPS - I rarely go there now. As Doug intimated, it was a marriage of convenience at the time and TPS (although a non-profit organisation) has a remit for advocacy and lobbying that run contrary to the 'flavour' of UMSF

We could do with a wealthy benefactor with a passion for exploration. My vote would be James Cameron. Perhaps the forum could incorporate robotic oceanic exploration as a sub-forum - useful when we get under the crust at Europa.....

#Roboticexploration.com

[stevesliva]

Also curious about cost breakdown of $5K/year (reasonable for 2 hours of IT support a month, seems high if just for vBulletin cloud hosting)

I was begging the same question because almost anything useful would require more person-hours, not fewer, if that's a person-hours accounting. If that's so it sounds like the features that might be within the budget are: none. I want to be clear I'm not jumping to that conclusion, and nprev made it clear that we should not jump to that conclusion yet.

That said, thank you Nick, Ted, anyone else for doing the work to clarify this.

[john_s]

I agree with most of the comments above (other than better image / large file management I don't see a lot that needs improving), though I do think the forum name needs to be updated to reflect the times. I miss many of the old regulars, and the chattier vibe that the forum used to have, but don't know why that has changed, so can't comment on how it might be improved. It would be nice to hear from more of the folks who don't post much anymore, about what has changed for them.

If the budget is a problem, it would be great to have a place to be able to donate to keep the forum going, complete with information about how much is still needed to meet the annual costs (one of those fund-raising thermometers...). I would happily contribute to keep the place ad-free. If it becomes ad-supported my interest in would likely decline.

Huge thanks from me too, to Doug for creating one of my favorite places on the internet, and to Nick and all the others who have kept it going, and the quality high, over the years.

John

[brellis]

I've greatly enjoyed the wonderful images and discussions here, hope it all can continue in whatever new context turns out to be. I agree with the sentiment that not much needs to change just for the sake of change.

Thanks!