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Parker Solar Probe, Take the Solar Plunge
ljk4-1
post Dec 25 2005, 12:33 AM
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Any serious plans to send a probe into the Sun to explore its depths as far as possible?

What would help a probe last as long as it could and how deep could it get?

Could it even radio or laser out any data?

What about a Sun skimmer?


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"After having some business dealings with men, I am occasionally chagrined,
and feel as if I had done some wrong, and it is hard to forget the ugly circumstance.
I see that such intercourse long continued would make one thoroughly prosaic, hard,
and coarse. But the longest intercourse with Nature, though in her rudest moods, does
not thus harden and make coarse. A hard, sensible man whom we liken to a rock is
indeed much harder than a rock. From hard, coarse, insensible men with whom I have
no sympathy, I go to commune with the rocks, whose hearts are comparatively soft."

- Henry David Thoreau, November 15, 1853

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kwan3217
post Dec 29 2005, 05:05 AM
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I recall a sci fi story from long ago about a manned station and manned boats on the surface of the sun. The three main obstacles to operating on the surface of the sun are:

1) intense heat
2) no solid surface
3) 32G surface gravity

The solutions are as follows

1) Carry a large supply of carbon, and pump it out of the surface of your platform. The carbon vaporizes and carries off the heat. Use carbon since it has the highest known melting and vaporization temperature of any substance. It acts like an ablative heat shield, or as the story described it, the bottom layer of a water drop in a hot pan.
2) Carry a big particle accelerator torus, and put a bunch of plasma in it and run it around the right direction such that it generates a magnetic field counter to the sun's magnetic field. If it is strong enough and controlled well enough, it will support the platform
3) Put this torus on the roof of the platform. Run the torus fast enough that through special relativity it gains enough mass to generate a 31G field in the up direction.

In the story, the mission of the platform and boats was to induce precisely controlled solar flares which would impact the atmosphere of the Earth, and in this manner they could control the weather. There was a vast representative democracy back on Earth, the Weather Congress, to decide what weather to have. There was a vast scientific institue, the Weather Advisors, to figure out how to implement the decisions of the Weather Congress. And there was the Weather Service, manning the base and boats on the sun, to carry out the plans of the Weather Advisors.

Now I know that there are dozens of reasons why the solutions proposed could not work (Where does all the carbon come from? What is the power source? What about tides from the gravity generator? Can you really use a plasma torus like that? The photosphere is hundreds of miles thick. Solar flares can't really influence Earth's weather that much. Even an enormous nuke is a mere sparkler on the sun, flares can't be induced.) but it is still interesting that someone actually considered a solution for landing on the sun which doesn't involve landing at night.
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tty
post Dec 29 2005, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (kwan3217 @ Dec 29 2005, 07:05 AM)
1) Carry a large supply of carbon, and pump it out of the surface of your platform. The carbon vaporizes and carries off the heat. Use carbon since it has the highest known melting and vaporization temperature of any substance. It acts like an ablative heat shield, or as the story described it, the bottom layer of a water drop in a hot pan.
*



I wonder if the use of coal to absorb the heat has something to with an idea Freeman Dyson came up with when he was working on the Orion nuclear propulsion project. The problem was how to test the concept without breaking the test ban since the test needed to be done in vacuum.
Dyson’s idea was to do the test indoors in a very large vacuum chamber. This would be partly filled with hundreds of tons of charcoal blocks suspended on wires. The explosion would of course turn the charcoal into fine dust which would then absorb the energy from the explosion by being converted into gas. The pressure wouldn’t be excessive since most of the volume was originally vacuum and the energy would transfer relatively slowly to the chamber walls so they wouldn’t melt, at least not much. According to Dyson’s calculations the whole thing would only work for quite small nuclear explosions, up to a few tenths of a kiloton, but that was the range they were interested in for the Orion project anyway.

The idea apparently interested the AEC as well when they realized that if done in an underground cavity it would both prevent the escape of nuclear debris to the atmosphere and almost completely de-couple the explosion from the surrounding rock, thus making it possible to do undetectable nuclear tests. According to rumour it was actually tried in extreme secrecy in Nevada and worked more or less as intended. blink.gif

tty
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Posts in this topic
- ljk4-1   Parker Solar Probe   Dec 25 2005, 12:33 AM
- - nprev   I don't know, but my best guess would be <p...   Dec 25 2005, 02:07 AM
|- - JRehling   Solar Probe was supposed to come within 3 solar ra...   Dec 25 2005, 06:15 AM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (JRehling @ Dec 25 2005, 06:15 AM)Solar...   Dec 25 2005, 08:24 AM
|- - nprev   The only "practical" solution I can see ...   Dec 25 2005, 08:38 AM
- - dvandorn   Well, there's always David Brin's solution...   Dec 25 2005, 07:46 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   Other ways to probe the Sun would be sending a las...   Dec 25 2005, 08:36 AM
|- - Jyril   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Dec 25 2005, 11:36 A...   Dec 25 2005, 12:22 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (Jyril @ Dec 25 2005, 12:22 PM)The Gene...   Dec 25 2005, 04:02 PM
- - tty   A lot of neutrinos from the interior of the Sun is...   Dec 25 2005, 04:37 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (tty @ Dec 25 2005, 04:37 PM)A lot of n...   Dec 25 2005, 05:57 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   Richard Trigaux, alas, is too optimistic about the...   Dec 25 2005, 11:23 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 25 2005, 11:23 PM)Ri...   Dec 26 2005, 09:27 AM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Dec 26 2005, 04:27 A...   Dec 26 2005, 06:03 PM
||- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (ljk4-1 @ Dec 26 2005, 06:03 PM)Ma...   Dec 26 2005, 08:52 PM
||- - antoniseb   It would be possible to create a probe that could ...   Dec 27 2005, 01:50 AM
||- - dvandorn   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Dec 26 2005, 02:52 P...   Dec 27 2005, 06:25 AM
||- - tty   QUOTE (dvandorn @ Dec 27 2005, 08:25 AM)Absol...   Dec 28 2005, 11:53 AM
||- - Bob Shaw   (Sigh) You're all missing the obvious way to ...   Dec 28 2005, 12:05 PM
||- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Dec 28 2005, 01:05 PM)(Sigh...   Dec 28 2005, 12:08 PM
||- - Holder of the Two Leashes   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Dec 28 2005, 06:05 AM) ...   Aug 8 2018, 01:57 PM
|- - punkboi   QUOTE (Richard Trigaux @ Dec 26 2005, 02:27 A...   Jan 6 2006, 05:51 PM
- - edstrick   Unfortunately, the Solar Probe mission, or whateve...   Dec 26 2005, 11:12 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   The trouble is that we haven't as yet come up ...   Dec 27 2005, 08:36 AM
|- - BlackMage   Well, if one gets to think into the really long-ra...   Dec 28 2005, 07:26 AM
- - edstrick   A limitless, though relatively small, source of en...   Dec 28 2005, 12:30 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (edstrick @ Dec 28 2005, 12:30 PM)Consi...   Dec 29 2005, 08:20 AM
- - kwan3217   I recall a sci fi story from long ago about a mann...   Dec 29 2005, 05:05 AM
|- - tty   QUOTE (kwan3217 @ Dec 29 2005, 07:05 AM)1) Ca...   Dec 29 2005, 06:38 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   QUOTE (tty @ Dec 29 2005, 07:38 PM)I wonder i...   Jan 6 2006, 11:06 PM
|- - ljk4-1   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Jan 6 2006, 06:06 PM)Freema...   Jan 7 2006, 03:02 AM
- - BruceMoomaw   That story was Theodore Taylor's "The Wea...   Dec 29 2005, 11:37 AM
- - Richard Trigaux   PINK FLOYD SET THE CONTROL FOR THE HEAR...   Dec 29 2005, 02:56 PM
- - BruceMoomaw   So THAT'S how they got so pink. By the way, S...   Dec 29 2005, 04:38 PM
|- - Bob Shaw   Bruce: Careful there Ted, or Crazy Dan might try ...   Dec 29 2005, 04:45 PM
||- - lyford   QUOTE (Bob Shaw @ Dec 29 2005, 08:45 AM)Bruce...   Dec 29 2005, 06:29 PM
|- - Richard Trigaux   QUOTE (BruceMoomaw @ Dec 29 2005, 04:38 PM).....   Dec 29 2005, 05:53 PM
- - PhilHorzempa   The Solar Probe project is still alive. In a Repo...   Jul 6 2007, 02:49 PM
- - Pando   http://solarprobe.gsfc.nasa.gov/   Jul 9 2007, 06:41 AM
|- - tedstryk   If it actually gets funded, it should also give us...   Jul 19 2007, 05:41 PM
|- - stevesliva   QUOTE (tedstryk @ Jul 19 2007, 01:41 PM) ...   Sep 20 2010, 06:05 AM
- - Y Bar Ranch   Hey, my first post here. So my idea for a solar p...   Jul 29 2007, 11:01 PM
- - Geographer   What is the highest level of albedo that's bee...   Nov 8 2007, 04:18 PM
|- - JRehling   From one reference on the web, I'm seeing that...   Dec 11 2007, 08:23 AM
|- - scalbers   QUOTE (Geographer @ Nov 8 2007, 05:18 PM)...   Sep 19 2010, 08:57 PM
|- - stevesliva   QUOTE (scalbers @ Sep 19 2010, 04:57 PM) ...   Sep 20 2010, 05:52 AM
- - ngunn   Has anyone suggested using the phenomenon of total...   Dec 11 2007, 11:42 AM
|- - ugordan   Wouldn't a big glass prism be massive?   Dec 11 2007, 11:49 AM
- - ngunn   Lots of little ones forming a scaly skin? A cloud ...   Dec 11 2007, 11:57 AM
- - Juramike   Or how about ice crystals? Could the probe squirt...   Dec 11 2007, 12:17 PM
- - jamescanvin   I notice from reading this months BIS magazine (th...   Dec 11 2007, 02:23 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (jamescanvin @ Dec 11 2007, 09:23 A...   Dec 11 2007, 02:27 PM
- - robspace54   I understand that Johns Hopkins University Applied...   Feb 5 2008, 05:44 PM
- - djellison   Yeah - that was my series of (probably very illega...   Feb 5 2008, 05:56 PM
- - Paolo   I have just received the author's copies of th...   Feb 19 2008, 07:24 PM
- - mps   NASA Calls on APL to Send a Probe to the Sun It s...   May 5 2008, 09:32 AM
- - RZero   Nasa Plans to go to the Sun Seems its becoming a ...   Jun 12 2008, 08:33 AM
- - mps   More detailed technical information here: Solar Pr...   Jun 12 2008, 10:53 AM
- - Drkskywxlt   Solar Probe Plus has been given the green light to...   Jul 7 2010, 04:58 PM
- - Drkskywxlt   It seems that the ESA Solar Orbiter mission (if se...   Jul 27 2010, 05:46 PM
- - Sunspot   Cool We can never have too many solar missions   Jul 27 2010, 07:54 PM
- - punkboi   A new article on Solar Probe Plus... 5 science ins...   Sep 3 2010, 12:39 AM
- - stevesliva   Actually only four instruments mentioned, but radi...   Sep 3 2010, 03:45 AM
|- - illexsquid   QUOTE (stevesliva @ Sep 2 2010, 08:45 PM)...   Sep 21 2010, 07:22 AM
- - Sunspot   More on one of the instruments http://www.spacere...   Sep 30 2010, 10:55 PM
- - mps   Solar Orbiter is selected as ESA's first M-cla...   Oct 5 2011, 05:51 PM
- - Paolo   selected again, you mean. I don't want to get ...   Oct 5 2011, 05:55 PM
- - stevesliva   Solar Probe Plus mentioned in this interesting sol...   Mar 8 2013, 09:56 PM
- - Paolo   ESA's Solar Orbiter has recently been delayed ...   Dec 3 2013, 06:33 PM
|- - pitcapuozzo   QUOTE (Paolo @ Dec 3 2013, 08:33 PM) ESA...   Apr 26 2015, 12:04 PM
- - Jaro_in_Montreal   Whatever happened to this sun-grazing spacecraft c...   Dec 7 2013, 06:19 PM
- - Paolo   it's now known as the Solar Probe Plus, an app...   Dec 7 2013, 06:38 PM
- - centsworth_II   Holy 2001-Space-Odyssey-caveman-thrown-bone-turnin...   Feb 12 2014, 06:36 PM
- - gndonald   There is a user of the Orbiter Spaceflight simulat...   Mar 1 2014, 12:09 PM
- - Explorer1   New announcement tomorrow on Solar Probe Plus: ht...   May 30 2017, 08:53 PM
- - algorimancer   Looking over the details of this mission, and cont...   Jun 1 2017, 09:15 PM
- - Explorer1   Perhaps the heat makes ion engines prohibitive? ...   Jun 1 2017, 09:50 PM
- - Decepticon   Curious will Parker Solar Probe also do Venus Scie...   Jun 5 2017, 07:38 AM
- - nprev   Here's a link to the instrumentation descripti...   Jun 5 2017, 05:46 PM
|- - JRehling   It took me a while to track down the specs of WISP...   Jun 6 2017, 09:36 PM
- - scalbers   I wonder if some high-phase angle images with such...   Jun 6 2017, 11:59 PM
|- - JRehling   WISPR wouldn't see color – by "white ligh...   Jun 8 2017, 12:41 AM
- - Explorer1   The launch has been delayed a few times to August ...   Jul 26 2018, 03:51 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   The time from launch to probe entry for Venera 3 c...   Jul 26 2018, 07:08 PM
|- - JRehling   Mariner 10 reached Venus in 94 days. I don't k...   Aug 1 2018, 05:18 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   Latest news is that the Venus flyby will be Octobe...   Aug 1 2018, 01:43 PM
- - Paolo   Cassini Venus to Earth in 1999 was 55 days   Aug 1 2018, 05:40 PM
- - Keatah   Well at least they are launching it at night! ...   Aug 8 2018, 06:19 PM
- - nprev   Launch now set for 0753 GMT. Live coverage here. ...   Aug 11 2018, 04:07 AM
- - nprev   T minus 10 min now. So far so good. GO PARKER...   Aug 11 2018, 07:42 AM
- - kenny   I believe New Horizons took about 9 hours, from la...   Aug 13 2018, 11:02 AM
- - Explorer1   According to Jonathan McDowell, it was a lot faste...   Aug 13 2018, 12:19 PM
- - Holder of the Two Leashes   A very detailed update on Parker: Early milestone...   Aug 20 2018, 06:35 PM
- - Paolo   first images from the wide field camera: Illuminat...   Sep 19 2018, 07:11 PM
- - nprev   Bit surprised at the quality of these since I thou...   Sep 20 2018, 04:26 AM
- - hendric   WISPR looks for plasma coming off the Sun, so it...   Sep 20 2018, 02:56 PM
|- - Explorer1   QUOTE (hendric @ Sep 20 2018, 09:56 AM) M...   Sep 20 2018, 03:35 PM
- - hendric   Maybe dust impacts could be detected via attitude ...   Sep 25 2018, 02:42 PM
- - Explorer1   Venus Flyby Complete!   Oct 3 2018, 11:02 PM
- - Steve G   That's crazy fast. What was the next quickest ...   Oct 4 2018, 03:18 AM
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