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HiRISE and Mars Polar Lander
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post Dec 6 2006, 02:05 PM
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Looking at the images of the Spirit/Opportunity landing site, it seems many of the features such as tracks and rocket blast markings have faded considerably often to the point of being invisible in the nearly three years since landing.

This had me thinking about the MGS images taken in the hope of finding MPL. Initially it was reported that MGS had spotted the lander, one image had a white spot/streak interpreted as the parachute and a dark patch with a spot in the centre not too far off, taken to be the blast zone of the rockets with the lander in the centre.

However another image taken 5 years later seemed to discount this theory - the features had faded or changed significantly. BUT, seeing how much the rover sites have changed in an even shorter time, wouldn't the same happen to the MPL site in 5 years - perhaps to an even greater degree with the more extreme seasonal changes at that location. Also, the latest HiRISE images show just how difficult it has been to spot the landers on the surface with MGS, the Viking sites in particular.

I hope HiRISE takes another look at this spot.

Mars Polar Lander NOT Found, MSSS article:
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2005/10/17/
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nprev
post May 13 2008, 01:36 AM
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I like C! smile.gif

I dunno, man, just don't know. They look more compelling to me than other purported finds...in fact, the "lander" almost looks like it made a successful descent. That topography is just a mess, though, and definitely promotes the Rorschach Effect.

We might need to send a cam with 1 cm resolution to find the damn thing in this stuff. Guess there's still a possibility we might get super-lucky and catch a specular reflection if there's some reasonably bare metal exposed & the geometry happens to be right.


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ugordan
post May 13 2008, 11:08 AM
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Neglecting the feasibility of actually acquiring that dataset, can you imagine what an effort it would be to inspect the entire landing ellipse at 1cm resolution? We're talking about a 600 times larger pixel area than even this (already huge) amount. That would undoubtedly require a computer pattern recognition algorithm, no human would venture into sifting through that systematically. All the more because we don't even know what we're looking for - deployed chutes, broken heat shields or just a single crater. It's not that easy to tell a computer "find everything out of the ordinary!" either.

I wonder what effects to metal surfaces (or parachute) a 9 year exposure to this environment would produce. Are we even sure this sublimation and frosting process didn't already bury all hardware or at least coat it with a thin layer of dust and rendered it part of that environment? Additionally, how does albedo in this region compare to equatorial sites, are we expecting metal surfaces and the parachute to jump out or is the terrain here much brighter (apart from certain very dark areas)?

So many unknowns...


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tedstryk
post May 13 2008, 12:48 PM
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I am choosing to ignore this thread until Phoenix is safely on the ground biggrin.gif


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tim53
post May 13 2008, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE (tedstryk @ May 13 2008, 04:48 AM) *
I am choosing to ignore this thread until Phoenix is safely on the ground biggrin.gif


Hi folks!


I don't know if it's been said elsewhere, but the easiest way to display these huge jpeg2000 files is to download a copy of ExpressView from Lizardtech.com.

I've been using that for searching for hardware, even though I have Photoshop CS3 with the jpeg2000 plugin installed, as Expressview is a lot faster at opening the files.

In my own search of the MPL site (and other lander hardware) images, I found it takes me about 4 hours to search each HiRISE image.

I have a "candidate" possibility for MPL, but there are problems with that set of objects being the lander, not the least of which is that nothing stands out in the MOC images of that same area taken within weeks of the loss of MPL. Sadly, it's dark there now, and it will be several months before any search imaging can resume.

I'll tell you where this object is, but it might be more fun to see if someone else notices it - sort of a qualitative eyeball calibration exercise, in effect!

-Tim.
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elakdawalla
post May 13 2008, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (tim53 @ May 13 2008, 01:34 PM) *
I have a "candidate" possibility for MPL, but there are problems with that set of objects being the lander, not the least of which is that nothing stands out in the MOC images of that same area taken within weeks of the loss of MPL. Sadly, it's dark there now, and it will be several months before any search imaging can resume.

Just to be clear, is your "candidate" the lander, an impact site, or the parachute? I'm preparing a Web page with info for the search and I was going to tell people that the parachute/backshell was the best object to be searching for, with examples of what they look like at the successful landing sites -- should I also try to give examples of what the lander/crash site should look like? If so I'll need some help from image magicians here to come up with sample images.

--Emily


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tim53
post May 13 2008, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (elakdawalla @ May 13 2008, 01:05 PM) *
Just to be clear, is your "candidate" the lander, an impact site, or the parachute? I'm preparing a Web page with info for the search and I was going to tell people that the parachute/backshell was the best object to be searching for, with examples of what they look like at the successful landing sites -- should I also try to give examples of what the lander/crash site should look like? If so I'll need some help from image magicians here to come up with sample images.

--Emily


MPL searchers beware: Potential spoilers to follow!


The image my gizmoid is in is PSP_005536_1030. The objects look similar to a "lander" and "backshell", but they're too big. The putative backshell object is about 5 meters across, whereas the actual backshell is just over half that size. So, if it's real hardware, it's sitting on a rise that's similar in brightness and shape, so that it resembles a single conical object 5 meters across at the base - not impossible, but reducing the chances (and definitely the certainty) that it's hardware. The putative lander object does not match the shading I get when I illuminate a lander model with the same lighting geometry as the HiRISE image, though I initially thought it did, when I compared it to a simulated image produced by MSSS during the search with MOC. Still, not impossible for it to be a lander, particularly if it's tilted or oriented or mangled in a manner that's hard to anticipate. But the poor match to the model does reduce the possibility that it's hardware and not a natural object.

When I first saw these objects last fall, I got pretty excited by their apparent similarities to other lander hardware we've seen in HiRISE images and the fact that they're within a few kilometers of the center of the Nav ellipse. But in addition to the scales and lighting issues, there is no bright patch near the putative backshell that might be a parachute. So, I wondered if it might be dust mantled after all this time. And so I've searched corresponding MOC image coverage (specifically M1104140, taken less than 2 months after the loss of MPL), and there aren't any anomalously bright OR dark spots at the locations of these features. The color coverage by HiRISE does run over these features but, unlike the other hardware we've seen in color, neither of these objects appears blue-tinted in color - they match the surrounding surface color.

So, if this is the lander, it was more or less "successful" at reaching the surface intact, it's oriented wrong by about 45 degrees or so, possibly tilted, and it was mantled so as to not stand out from its surroundings rather quickly after the landing... ...in other words, it's not bloody likely to be the lander.

Early on in my search, I identified a dark spot in a CTX image to the south (and thus downrange) of the center of the nav ellipse, and a few hundred meters beyond the HiRISE coverage. It'll be interesting to see this spot in HiRISE come spring, in the off chance it's an impact site. There is no MOC coverage of this feature (at least not of sufficient resolution, IIRC), as it was just outside the search area for MPL. But except that this is an isolated dark spot in that image (beyond a field of dark splotches in that area), there's nothing particularly remarkable about it, and it might just be a site of defrosting or a dark dust streak, and thus a natural feature.

-Tim.
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ugordan
post May 15 2008, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (tim53 @ May 14 2008, 12:04 AM) *
The image my gizmoid is in is PSP_005536_1030. The objects look similar to a "lander" and "backshell", but they're too big.

Argh. I can't find a trace of your objects in the said image and that image is the most studied one by me yet. I also looked at the IRB version since you said there's color coverage, but found nothing remotely interesting. Would you mind showing us how your objects look (not necessarily giving locations) so we can see what they're supposed to look like?

Plus, this is just driving me crazy smile.gif


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tim53
post May 15 2008, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (ugordan @ May 15 2008, 12:36 PM) *
Argh. I can't find a trace of your objects in the said image and that image is the most studied one by me yet. I also looked at the IRB version since you said there's color coverage, but found nothing remotely interesting. Would you mind showing us how your objects look (not necessarily giving locations) so we can see what they're supposed to look like?

Plus, this is just driving me crazy smile.gif


Okay, here ya go!

They're in opposite corners of this cropped frame from that image. And they live near the north end of the image. In this case, north is toward the bottom of the scene.

And remember, though the file is titled with MPL and backshell in the file name, it really can't be hardware, because of the things I noted above...

...unless it is. We'll see when the sun comes back around.

But seriously, though I have looked at all the HiRISE images taken thus far, I might have missed something. I'd love to hear what all y'all might find!

-Tim.
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Posts in this topic
- Sunspot   HiRISE and Mars Polar Lander   Dec 6 2006, 02:05 PM
- - Zvezdichko   Digging up this thread. The Sun has returned to th...   Dec 13 2007, 09:59 AM
- - elakdawalla   I think it's a good idea to collect links to H...   Dec 13 2007, 04:55 PM
|- - slinted   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ Dec 13 2007, 08:55 A...   Dec 13 2007, 11:52 PM
- - Charles   I am wondering if the MPL (Mars Polar Lander) did ...   Feb 7 2008, 08:29 PM
- - Zvezdichko   Help them find Mars Polar Lander! article wri...   May 11 2008, 09:24 AM
- - Sunspot   I do find it odd that absolutely no trace of Mars ...   May 12 2008, 10:45 AM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (Sunspot @ May 12 2008, 12:45 PM) I...   May 12 2008, 11:02 AM
- - Phil Stooke   Yesss... but we knew where those sites were! ...   May 12 2008, 11:01 AM
|- - Sunspot   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 12 2008, 12:01 P...   May 12 2008, 12:08 PM
- - djellison   It's parachute would.   May 12 2008, 11:14 AM
- - Zvezdichko   Also, if you are unable to view the big jp2 images...   May 12 2008, 12:57 PM
- - Phil Stooke   It's only easy if you know what you're loo...   May 12 2008, 01:23 PM
|- - Sunspot   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 12 2008, 02:23 P...   May 12 2008, 04:54 PM
- - Phil Stooke   That's true! But we don't know that...   May 12 2008, 07:19 PM
|- - ugordan   Sigh, I think looking for this thing is an exercis...   May 12 2008, 08:22 PM
|- - Juramike   QUOTE (ugordan @ May 12 2008, 03:22 PM) S...   May 12 2008, 08:47 PM
- - nprev   I like C! I dunno, man, just don't kno...   May 13 2008, 01:36 AM
|- - ugordan   Neglecting the feasibility of actually acquiring t...   May 13 2008, 11:08 AM
|- - tedstryk   I am choosing to ignore this thread until Phoenix ...   May 13 2008, 12:48 PM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (tedstryk @ May 13 2008, 04:48 AM) ...   May 13 2008, 08:34 PM
|- - climber   QUOTE (tim53 @ May 13 2008, 10:34 PM) Hi ...   May 13 2008, 08:39 PM
|- - elakdawalla   QUOTE (tim53 @ May 13 2008, 01:34 PM) I h...   May 13 2008, 09:05 PM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ May 13 2008, 01:05 P...   May 13 2008, 10:04 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (tim53 @ May 14 2008, 12:04 AM) The...   May 15 2008, 08:36 PM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (ugordan @ May 15 2008, 12:36 PM) A...   May 15 2008, 09:22 PM
- - MarsIsImportant   I found a candidate site for the lander. Currentl...   May 13 2008, 08:35 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (MarsIsImportant @ May 13 2008, 10...   May 13 2008, 09:05 PM
- - MarsIsImportant   I finally have a real close-up view of my feature....   May 13 2008, 09:17 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (MarsIsImportant @ May 13 2008, 11...   May 13 2008, 09:28 PM
||- - MarsIsImportant   QUOTE (ugordan @ May 13 2008, 03:28 PM) S...   May 13 2008, 09:52 PM
||- - ugordan   QUOTE (MarsIsImportant @ May 13 2008, 11...   May 13 2008, 10:05 PM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (MarsIsImportant @ May 13 2008, 01...   May 13 2008, 10:07 PM
- - djellison   Remember, the MPL lander dropped away from the bac...   May 13 2008, 09:20 PM
- - djellison   Oh - I agree with that point, we don't know if...   May 13 2008, 09:39 PM
- - Sunspot   Some areas of the landing site look VERY dangerous...   May 13 2008, 09:44 PM
- - elakdawalla   Anybody else suddenly having problems with the HiR...   May 13 2008, 10:45 PM
|- - ugordan   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ May 14 2008, 12:45 A...   May 13 2008, 10:50 PM
- - MarsIsImportant   Here context for the feature I showed. (I had a...   May 13 2008, 10:48 PM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (MarsIsImportant @ May 13 2008, 02...   May 13 2008, 11:06 PM
- - elakdawalla   Yay, the website seems to be back up. --Emily   May 13 2008, 11:10 PM
- - MarsIsImportant   Sorry, but the illumination is not from lower righ...   May 13 2008, 11:18 PM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (MarsIsImportant @ May 13 2008, 03...   May 13 2008, 11:38 PM
- - elakdawalla   MarsIsImportant, I was also completely confused ab...   May 14 2008, 04:36 AM
- - MarsEngineer   Hi friends (and Hi Tim ... we have to stop meeting...   May 14 2008, 05:05 AM
|- - climber   QUOTE (MarsEngineer @ May 14 2008, 07:05 ...   May 14 2008, 07:52 AM
- - MarsIsImportant   Emily, The azimuth on the label Tim pointed out f...   May 14 2008, 05:23 AM
- - MarsIsImportant   I've been taking a look around that same JP2 i...   May 14 2008, 06:23 AM
- - MarsIsImportant   Something is not right with this image projection....   May 14 2008, 06:56 AM
- - djellison   I've tidied this thread up a little - MIP, ple...   May 14 2008, 07:51 AM
|- - climber   QUOTE (djellison @ May 14 2008, 09:51 AM)...   May 14 2008, 11:23 AM
|- - ugordan   Tim53 said in a earlier post there's another o...   May 14 2008, 11:46 AM
|- - climber   QUOTE (ugordan @ May 14 2008, 01:46 PM) T...   May 14 2008, 12:26 PM
|- - ugordan   I might be wrong about this, but if you're thi...   May 14 2008, 12:38 PM
- - Phil Stooke   MIP: "Something is not right with this image ...   May 14 2008, 10:40 AM
|- - ugordan   Furthermore, if the dataset in question is non-map...   May 14 2008, 10:59 AM
- - nprev   Argh. As Gordan said earlier, "so many unknow...   May 14 2008, 12:31 PM
- - climber   Yes, I concur. Ablative material (sort of "co...   May 14 2008, 01:49 PM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (climber @ May 14 2008, 05:49 AM) Y...   May 14 2008, 02:18 PM
- - hendric   What kind of effect would the downed lander have o...   May 14 2008, 03:08 PM
- - remcook   A friend of mine went to Greenland a while back an...   May 14 2008, 04:19 PM
- - MarsEngineer   Hi Climber, You are correct. There was and contin...   May 14 2008, 05:21 PM
- - hendric   Remcook, Yes, that's exactly what I'm th...   May 14 2008, 05:59 PM
- - Juramike   Wow. I give up. I see nothing in that image even...   May 16 2008, 12:05 AM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (Juramike @ May 15 2008, 04:05 PM) ...   May 16 2008, 12:26 AM
||- - Juramike   QUOTE (tim53 @ May 15 2008, 07:26 PM) I...   May 16 2008, 01:02 AM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (Juramike @ May 15 2008, 04:05 PM) ...   May 16 2008, 05:32 PM
- - remcook   I'm glad I'm not in charge of these kinds ...   May 16 2008, 08:48 AM
- - Juramike   (Has anyone else noticed that the deposit structur...   May 16 2008, 03:13 PM
- - elakdawalla   Well, it took me way too long to do this, but I ha...   May 16 2008, 09:05 PM
|- - Reed   QUOTE (elakdawalla @ May 16 2008, 01:05 P...   May 17 2008, 08:38 PM
|- - djellison   QUOTE (Reed @ May 17 2008, 09:38 PM) You ...   May 17 2008, 08:42 PM
- - Phil Stooke   Just a quick one... probably nothing, of course. ...   May 17 2008, 12:45 AM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 16 2008, 04:45 P...   May 17 2008, 05:04 AM
- - Phil Stooke   So perhaps we should call this place 'The Bone...   May 17 2008, 01:28 PM
|- - climber   QUOTE (Phil Stooke @ May 17 2008, 03:28 P...   May 17 2008, 04:39 PM
- - djellison   That'll be much MUCH easier with the triangula...   May 17 2008, 04:44 PM
|- - ugordan   How accurate is that, anyway?   May 17 2008, 05:24 PM
- - djellison   http://www.msss.com/mer_mission/finding_mer/ - an...   May 17 2008, 05:33 PM
|- - ugordan   That's pretty cool, I didn't know the orbi...   May 17 2008, 06:52 PM
- - jamescanvin   This caught my eye, back-shell top-left, parachute...   May 17 2008, 07:58 PM
- - djellison   Yeah, more like 10m, not 80. That looks like what...   May 17 2008, 08:05 PM
- - jamescanvin   Yeah thought so, the MPL landing ellipse seems to ...   May 17 2008, 08:32 PM
|- - centsworth_II   QUOTE (jamescanvin @ May 17 2008, 04:32 P...   May 17 2008, 08:50 PM
- - djellison   That nature can play tricks on people. When you...   May 17 2008, 09:05 PM
- - Sunspot   Having looked at parts of the landing site with Hi...   May 18 2008, 09:18 AM
|- - ugordan   I've now gone through all the images, all of t...   May 18 2008, 10:48 AM
|- - tim53   QUOTE (ugordan @ May 18 2008, 02:48 AM) H...   May 18 2008, 03:32 PM
- - Zvezdichko   Gordan: Check up this: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mg...   May 18 2008, 03:26 PM
- - climber   What about if the chute deployed and failed in pie...   May 18 2008, 03:49 PM
- - djellison   Even a shreded chute like those Boise MER tests wo...   May 18 2008, 03:58 PM
|- - ugordan   Thanks, Zvezdichko and Tim for the pointers. Just ...   May 18 2008, 05:14 PM
|- - Reed   QUOTE (djellison @ May 18 2008, 07:58 AM)...   May 18 2008, 10:41 PM
- - elakdawalla   Someone wrote to correct Rob Manning's math in...   May 19 2008, 10:14 PM
- - nprev   Well...dusting off my brain here, I'd say that...   May 19 2008, 10:30 PM
- - Mike Dorward   Attached is a 2X HiRISE image showing the Polar La...   Jun 1 2008, 06:16 PM
- - nprev   Sorry...not seeing it. Pretty sweeping claim, and ...   Jun 1 2008, 06:23 PM
- - djellison   All looks totally natural to me.   Jun 1 2008, 06:24 PM
|- - ugordan   This one is probably completely natural as well, b...   Jun 1 2008, 06:37 PM
- - nprev   Cool...but I think we're getting into some dee...   Jun 1 2008, 06:53 PM
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